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#1024701 --- 05/15/09 01:52 PM Legislators mount land-trust opposition
newsman38 Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 4947
Loc: Fourth Estate
Lawmakers in Cayuga, Seneca counties plan to organize opposition to Cayuga Indian Nation's land-into-trust plans

Lawmakers from Cayuga and Seneca counties are planning a joint meeting Monday to start mounting opposition to the Cayuga Indian Nation's bid for federal trust land.

The meeting was called after both counties received the Cayugas' draft environmental impact statement, which supports the nation's trust application.

The Cayugas have asked the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs to place into trust 125 acres of ancestral land they own. The trust designation would make the land sovereign and tax-free forever.

In the document, which The Post-Standard obtained Thursday, the Cayugas restate their plan to re-establish their sovereign homeland around Cayuga Lake and to reopen their Class II video gaming halls in Union Springs and Seneca Falls.

"The reestablishment of gaming facilities as a revenue source is critical to the nation's fiscal and cultural well-being," the document says.

As part of the application process, the BIA has scheduled a public hearing on the trust application next month. It will be held at the New York State Chiropractic College in Seneca Falls on June 17, and the BIA will accept written comments from May 22 to July 6.

"I think this is a very critical time for us to get out the opposition to putting that land into trust," Cayuga County Legislature Chairman Peter Tortorici said.

Syracuse lawyer Daniel French, who represents the Cayugas, said the nation is pleased the application process is moving forward. He also said he believes it is only a matter of time before the Cayugas' land is placed into trust.

The counties, joined by the Cayuga-Seneca chapter of Upstate Citizens for Equality, say awarding trust land to the Cayugas will put a greater tax burden on other property owners and give the nation a competitive edge over businesses that have to pay taxes.

"It's just not a fair ballgame," said UCE Chairman Richard Tallcot.

Legislators plan to mount land-trust opposition in Cayuga, Seneca counties.
Friday, May 15, 2009
By Scott Rapp

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#1024976 --- 05/16/09 08:24 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: newsman38]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: newsman38
The trust designation would make the land sovereign and tax-free forever.




Hummmmmmmmmmm.............. must mean that the land is not currently sovereign or tax free.

Felony charges to follow..............
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#1025121 --- 05/16/09 12:53 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
That is why the Cayugas are fighting so hard to get the land in trust because Trust Land is their last chance to run their businesses to their advantage. That is why the facts in their Trust Application are so distorted. That is why they are keeping the taxes paid on those properties. I think the land can not become trust land unless the taxes are current. However I think there is also a requirement about the land not being used for illegal purposes. A felony conviction would be a little hard to cover up.
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#1026963 --- 05/20/09 02:41 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
A felony conviction would be a little hard to cover up.


Even when the "leaders" are in jail
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#1027928 --- 05/21/09 12:15 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
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Crybaby settlers. Pathetic.
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#1027949 --- 05/21/09 12:41 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Funny, that is exactly what the Mexicans and Native Americans in California said about you.
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#1027957 --- 05/21/09 12:50 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Funny, that is exactly what the Mexicans and Native Americans in California said about you.


Probably so. But hey, they DO smile down at my attempts to rid myself of euro-centric thinking and behavior.
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#1027996 --- 05/21/09 02:42 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Crybaby settlers. Pathetic.

The only crybabies are the casino shoppers.
Did you give your land back?


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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1028000 --- 05/21/09 02:46 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

BZ, there is so much garbage in this Oneida agreement, it is obvious that Halbritter wrote the whole thing and extremely obvious that Picente just sucked up to him.

The U.S. Supreme Court in Carcieri ruled tribes had to both be federally recognized and under federal jurisdiction in 1934 to qualify for trust land. Neither the Cayuga or Oneida were on the federal recognition list or under federal jurisdiction. The NY tribes requested in 1848 to be under state jurisdiction.

A U.S. Supreme Court ruling issued March 31, 2009 sheds a different light on tribal trust applications within the thirteen colonies. HAWAII v. OFFICE OF HAWAIIAN AFFAIRS (No. 07-1372) It is obvious SCOTUS deems a state that enters the Union whole without federal reserved rights as having sovereignty over it's own lands and neither the State Supreme Court or Congress can change that.

Justice Alito said it "would raise grave constitutional concerns" if Congress sought to "cloud Hawaii's title to its sovereign lands" after it had joined the Union. "We have emphasized that Congress cannot, after statehood, reserve or convey . . . lands that have already been bestowed upon a state," he wrote.

There is presently a Congressional Hearing scheduled May 21, 2009 2:15 P.M. Senate Dirkson Building Room 628 to examine Executive Authority to acquire trust lands for Indian Tribes.

While the Carcieri ruling could be reversed in the future if enough congressmen were bought because the ruling as based upon congressional legislation, the Hawaii ruling cannot be reversed because it is based upon the Constitution.

There is absolutely NO conceivable way the lawsuits opposing trust lands can lose.

There is absolutely NO reason for an agreement or settlement.

The ONLY way the tribe can get ANYTHING is if it is given to them.

Oneida County Executive Picente's agreement drops three of four cases presently before the court with no possibility of reinstatement.

* Tax assessments: The tribe sued Oneida County in State Court with regard to assessments on properties on which the Sherrill decision says the tribe owes taxes. Oneida County will drop its counterclaim against the tribe's lawsuit. The tribe tried to withdraw this lawsuit shortly after filing because they realized they dropped their sovereignty against counterclaim and the court said no. The county would not be able to reinitiate the lawsuit due to tribal sovereign immunity. Making "application" to the courts to reinstate the lawsuit starts the process over again.

* Foreclosure Case: Initiated by Madison and Oneida Counties in Federal Court to foreclose on property on which the Sherrill decision says the tribe owes taxes.

[This is the case where Judge Hurd ruled sovereign immunity precluded the counties from foreclosing to enforce the tax collection SCOTUS said was due. A federal district judge in Hobart, WS ruled against the WS Oneida tribe last fall in favor of Hobart on an identical case and blasted Judge Hurd for being so stupid. Hobart won.] Oneida County will drop this lawsuit. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals has already heard oral arguments on this and we're merely awaiting a ruling. The county may not be able to reinitiate the lawsuit due to tribal sovereign immunity. Making "application" to the courts to reinstate the lawsuit starts the process over again.

* Oneida County will drop the lawsuit challenging the Interior Department's decision to take land into trust for the Oneidas. The county would not be able to reinitiate the lawsuit because the time frame in which to file lawsuits has lapsed.

The only case the tribe does not want withdrawn is the tribe's land claim suit in which the court has said they cannot have land but may receive a huge monetary settlement. Such settlement could be as high as $500,000,000.

* Oneida County agrees to allow 8,800 acres of county land be placed into trust.

* Oneida County will not oppose an additional 1,800 acres to be placed into trust.

* Oneida County will not oppose the transfer of 18 acres at Verona test site and will not oppose any other land owned by the federal government being transferred to trust that is not part of the agreement. That includes additional land at the Verona test site and any federal owned land at the old Griffiss Air Base. [The transfer of such land as an enclave has to revert back to state jurisdiction and cannot be taken without state legislative approval. This is not trust land as the news media has reported. The feds have not accepted it as trust land because it has not been recorded as such in the Federal Register. The action is still before the courts in the trust lawsuits.]

* Oneida County agrees to allow tribal police complete jurisdiction to arrest anyone, including non-Indians, not just throughout the county, but within the "geographic area of employment". This is a non-revocable, non-discretionary deputization of members of the Nation's police force. "Litigation shall be brought in the United States District Court for the Northern District of New York or, if if that court determines that it lacks jurisdiction in any other court of competent jurisdiction." This could be interpreted to mean tribal court for non-Indians.

* The plan includes the 300,000 acre area covered in the State use right reservation in the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua. The agreement allows tribal jurisdiction and unlimited development including liquor sales on ALL land owned in fee by the tribe in the covered area.

* Any land held in fee by the tribe shall have Silver Covenants paid instead of taxes. Silver Covenants are unenforceable and in the past have been paid and withdrawn at the whim of the tribe.

* The state will drop its lawsuit against the Record of Decision, agree to the 8,800 acres into trust as well as the additional 1,800 acres into trust and the ability to spread into the covered area in the future.

* The state will grant the tribe a liquor license.

* The state will set up a liquor board of tribal members to deal with themselves. Again, this includes the full 300,000 acres.

* All sales and excise taxes will be kept by the tribe whether in trust or in fee simple within the 300,000 acre covered area. This includes Madison County, which was not included in the agreement. [This is important because when the Cayuga tribe loses the tax case, the Oneida tribe is in the same boat. King Ray is worried.]

* The State must agree that they will not collect sales or excise taxes from the past, present or in the future from the tribe.

* No tribal members will be charged any sales or excise tax.

* Any land uses and existing changes involving local building codes, land use, zoning, weights and measures, health, safety and environmental matters may continue and shall be deemed to be conforming uses. That would include the tribe's gas tanks next to the lake, their helicopter pad which was built dangerously close to a major gas line, their marinas dredging the lake without permits and more. They don't call UFPO.

* The 1993 gaming compact, which was ruled unconstitutional by the courts in Peterman v. Pataki because it was not approved by the state legislature and through which the state and communities get nothing, will be considered valid. Where there is any conflict between the compact and this agreement, the compact controls. [UCE's trust lawsuit addresses this issue rather rigorously. By the action of the state legislature, should they approve this agreement, it would act as a validation of the 1993 compact. It would remove the only Ace the state holds to make any agreement because the casino violates the law now, is on fee simple property under state jurisdiction, but the state refuses to enforce the law. ]

* Disputes shall be resolved through arbitration. Remedies shall be severely limited to this agreement and shall not include an award of costs or fees of any kind. Judicial enforcement may only be made through the federal district court.

* If the laws or taxes change regarding cigarettes, the tribe may terminate the tax agreement.

* If there is deemed a violation, the state agrees it will not attempt to collect any taxes owed or impose penalties or fines prior to the date the tax agreement is terminated.

* Prior to the enforcement date if any part of the agreement is deemed invalid, then the whole agreement is deemed invalid.

* After the enforcement date if any part of the agreement is deemed invalid, then the tribe has the sole option of declaring the whole agreement void or continue with all remaining provisions in full force. [The county does not have a say in this matter.]

There are five other lawsuits pertaining to the Record of Decision. If any one of them prevail the tribe has the sole right to reclaim ALL $55 million dollars paid PLUS 50% interest.

As a balance:

* The tribe agreed not to file for additional trust lands within five years.

* The tribe agreed to allow the county to challenge future trust land applications in excess of 10,600 acres.

* The tribe agreed to pay a total of $55 million. This $55 million gets divided up between the county and its three cities, 26 towns and 10 villages, as well as several school districts. No future payments will be made.

* The tribe agrees to meet or exceed local building codes, land use, zoning, weights and measures, health, safety and environmental matters. [Note: whatever governmental entity utilizes the International Building Codes is its own overseer, as with everything else. The tribal government will oversee the code. Plus, as already addressed above, everything they are doing illegally now will be and continue to be deemed as legal.]

* The tribe will charge equivalent sales and excise taxes to that of the neighboring community. But it gets to keep all the tax and may opt to withdraw from this and undercut all competitors if the tax changes (goes up or down).

I am a Citizens Equal Rights Alliance board member and Chairman of the Cayuga-Seneca Chapter of Upstate Citizens for Equality. I am active in both organization lawsuits and a plaintiff against the Record of Decision pertaining to the Oneida tribe. I deal with the Cayuga tribe's trust applications, but am doing so by defeating the Oneida tribe's applications because trust lands cannot be established in New York State. I assure you, we will NOT drop our lawsuits and when we win, and we will, Oneida County will have to come up with $75 million dollars to pay the Oneida tribe.

[About eight years ago a tribal policeman quit because tribal police were stalking citizens opposed to the tribe's views, following UCE members home from meetings, using state police computer access to investigate anyone opposing the tribe, flushing evidence of drugs being used down toilets, and more. He couldn't take it anymore. Most tribal police are ex-troopers, but as tribal police they are federal officers and exempt from many constraints that apply to other police.]

[The state is not enforcing the laws now. There is no valid compact, the casino is illegal, tribal businesses are not on reservation lands, sales, excise and property taxes are not being collected or remitted, bed taxes are not being remitted. The highest state court has already ruled the compact unconstitutional, the tribe appealed to SCOTUS and they refused to hear the case. What's to say the agreement will be enforced if arbitration rules against the tribe and who does the enforcing? ]

So King Ray KNOWS that the properties the tribe owns are subject to foreclosure, are not reservation lands, are assessed reasonably, that sales and excise tax laws may be applied, that the Turning Stone is operating illegally, that he cannot sell a beer without a state liquor license, that tribal jurisdiction is limited to 32 acres, that everything outside the 32 acres is subject to local and state jurisdiction and laws, OR he would not be REQUESTING that all these items be granted to the tribe because otherwise they would already exist. His whole house of cards is subject to falling down.

The Oneida agreement is a Christmas wish list. Picente is pathetic. And, NO, Congress does not have to approve this if King Ray withdrew the trust applications because it would basically create an 8,800 acre state reservation. If the state legislature approved it, King Ray would appear to get more than he would if it were trust land because there would still be no federal jurisdiction. He could then expand on this by filing for trust lands in the future to annex.

The deal will not go anywhere because it is so absurd. King Ray's OBJECTIVE is to get talks going again to stall the court proceedings which would kick the chair out from under him.

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/articles/2009/05/15/news/doc4a0e374d64a4a273400982.prt
Friday, May 15, 2009
Vernon-Verona-Sherrill Central School District sent out the following fact sheet explaining the impact of the proposed Oneida County Partnership Plan on the Vernon-Verona-Sherrill Central School District.

1. The school district will be required to discount its current property tax lien on the Oneida Indian Nation by 86 percent, in other words, settle for approximately 14 cents on the $1. $6.2 million / $44,221,906 = $0.14

2. The school district would be required to surrender 12 percent of its land mass from the school property tax roll.

3. The district would be required to surrender 48 percent of its total current assessed property tax value in perpetuity (forever more).

4. The school district would receive no further financial consideration for the loss from its tax rolls, therefore, the burden of the loss of these assessed values would fall on the remaining property taxpayers.
_________________________
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HTTP://WWW.UPSTATE-CITIZENS.ORG

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#1028257 --- 05/22/09 06:55 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
Seems new findings show that the Indians in the eastern seaboard area were not the first and may have caused the demise of the true original European land owners . French European Clovis arrow and knife points have been found in NY aged back 15,000 to 13,000 years ago three thousand years before the local Indians came over from Asia, seems a small populaton made it over from France to America and stayed here long before Indians showed up. About 10,000 years ago the Asian style arrow points started to show up starting from the north west trailing to the east , In the end the two groups are believed to trade technologies and the superior euro Clovis point design was adopted by the invading Indians of the time and the Euro population disappeared. So as a person with Euro blood back a few thousand years I herby claim the USA as my possession and will sue the local Indian population for damages against my ancestors who they obviously over ran and caused there demise we want or Euro land back.
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#1028305 --- 05/22/09 09:57 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
newsman38 Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 4947
Loc: Fourth Estate
Oneida land trust settlement appears doomed

A proposed $55 million deal to settle a land trust dispute between Oneida County and the Oneida Indian Nation appears to be collapsing.

The county's Republican lawmakers issued a statement Thursday saying they oppose the plan to resolve long-standing land and tax issues negotiated by fellow GOP County Executive Anthony Picente. Democratic county lawmakers voiced their displeasure with the proposal almost immediately after it was announced two weeks ago.

A vote by county lawmakers is scheduled for Wednesday.

by The Associated Press
Friday May 22, 2009, 9:47 AM

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#1028399 --- 05/22/09 12:32 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Crybaby settlers. Pathetic.

The only crybabies are the casino shoppers.
Did you give your land back?

My properties are outside the land claim. If they ever become so I will.


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#1029639 --- 05/26/09 10:37 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
Greymane Offline
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Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
SC, how are the Mexicans making out with their land claim to all of California? I hope you don't fight it. I know the weather is great, but they were there first.
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#1029642 --- 05/26/09 10:45 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: pixie
Seems new findings show that the Indians in the eastern seaboard area were not the first and may have caused the demise of the true original European land owners . French European Clovis arrow and knife points have been found in NY aged back 15,000 to 13,000 years ago three thousand years before the local Indians came over from Asia, seems a small populaton made it over from France to America and stayed here long before Indians showed up. About 10,000 years ago the Asian style arrow points started to show up starting from the north west trailing to the east , In the end the two groups are believed to trade technologies and the superior euro Clovis point design was adopted by the invading Indians of the time and the Euro population disappeared. So as a person with Euro blood back a few thousand years I herby claim the USA as my possession and will sue the local Indian population for damages against my ancestors who they obviously over ran and caused there demise we want or Euro land back.


Maybe it is a good thing the Indians invaded. Can you imagine the French in charge?
_________________________
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#1029686 --- 05/26/09 02:57 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Greymane]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
yea we would have no tax red wine instead of cigs on the non reservations being sold . But goes to show any one saying we were here first is just not looking back far enough.
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chemical / electrical engineer .

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#1029740 --- 05/26/09 08:11 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
SC is just a troll and doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. Thank God he is not teaching in NYS. He is just trying to stir things up and "P" everyone off.
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#1030032 --- 05/27/09 04:58 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer

My properties are outside the land claim. If they ever become so I will.



Do you live in Canada or Mexico?
If not than you are on indian land as the casino shopping tribes claim they were here first.
Are there not tribes and indian run casinos in California?
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#1030034 --- 05/27/09 05:02 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

...There is absolutely NO conceivable way the lawsuits opposing trust lands can lose.

There is absolutely NO reason for an agreement or settlement.

The ONLY way the tribe can get ANYTHING is if it is given to them.



The Cayugas know that they are on the losing end.
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1030663 --- 05/29/09 09:31 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pixie
French European Clovis arrow and knife points have been found in NY aged back 15,000 to 13,000 years ago three thousand years before the local Indians came over from Asia,


Will the indians now want claim to land in Asia?
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#1030712 --- 05/29/09 12:43 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Maybe we should just deport them. \:D
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#1030724 --- 05/29/09 01:03 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
They may leave on their own when they face felony charges and fail to get trust land.
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#1030736 --- 05/29/09 01:21 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
;\) \:D
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#1030744 --- 05/29/09 01:34 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Lordy! Such nasty little settlers...my my!
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#1030746 --- 05/29/09 01:38 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Lordy! Such nasty little settlers...my my!


All of California should be given back to Mexico because they were there first, right?
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#1030749 --- 05/29/09 01:41 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Just let someone barge in front of YOU in the buffet line! Sparks would surely f-l-y...right settler?
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http://www.freakradio.org
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#1030750 --- 05/29/09 01:44 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Just let someone barge in front of YOU in the buffet line! Sparks would surely f-l-y...right settler?


I am sure what you are saying? When it comes to giving up your home to an earlier resident of the area, I guess you just like to change the subject?
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#1030753 --- 05/29/09 01:48 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.
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LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
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#1030755 --- 05/29/09 01:50 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.


Oh so you know own 8 acres in Ontario County? I don't think you have told us this before? What is its assesed value?
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#1030758 --- 05/29/09 01:55 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Of what value to this discussion would that matter?
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http://www.freakradio.org
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#1030761 --- 05/29/09 02:02 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Of what value to this discussion would that matter?


Well since you think the Indians are being so badly mistreated and we should give our land back to them, I thought maybe you would consider selling your land in Ontario County and donate the money to the Cayugas? Wouldn't that be the neighborly thing to do?
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#1030763 --- 05/29/09 02:05 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Sweet thought. Hmmm.
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LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1030764 --- 05/29/09 02:07 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sweet thought. Hmmm.


As others have said on here, you are just a troll. I no longer believe a thing you say.
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#1030766 --- 05/29/09 02:13 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sweet thought. Hmmm.


As others have said on here, you are just a troll. I no longer believe a thing you say.



So what. Belief is optional. Why is it always those who are 'locked in' to their pet projects, who resort to pulling our their little 'troll card' when so inclined?

Mine is only an o-p-i-n-i-o-n. So is yours.
_________________________

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#1030769 --- 05/29/09 02:17 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sweet thought. Hmmm.


As others have said on here, you are just a troll. I no longer believe a thing you say.



So what. Belief is optional. Why is it always those who are 'locked in' to their pet projects, who resort to pulling our their little 'troll card' when so inclined?

Mine is only an o-p-i-n-i-o-n. So is yours.


My opinion is that the United States is the greatest nation on earth and attitudes and actions like you are proposing will help destroy it. Therefore, your attitude makes me very angry and I see this as much more than a pet project. You are very ready to give away other people's property but not your own. You have just shown yourself to be a first class phony.
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#1030772 --- 05/29/09 02:23 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
So. If someone elses opinion and/or belief system runs counter to yours they are a 'troll'?

How UN-AMERICAN of you...shame!


Hey. I actually thought your idea had MERIT. I may enter that into my Will. Thank you.
_________________________

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http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1030774 --- 05/29/09 02:27 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
So. If someone elses opinion and/or belief system runs counter to yours they are a 'troll'?

How UN-AMERICAN of you...shame!


Hey. I actually thought your idea had MERIT. I may enter that into my Will. Thank you.


It is not that your ideas and opinion run counter to mine. There are people that have different ideas and opinions than mine that I can respect because they back up their beliefs with logic. But you just seem to enjoy making light of what I consider a very serious situation. Therefore, you apparently are doing nothing but wasting our time on here.
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#1030777 --- 05/29/09 02:34 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
So. If someone elses opinion and/or belief system runs counter to yours they are a 'troll'?

How UN-AMERICAN of you...shame!


Hey. I actually thought your idea had MERIT. I may enter that into my Will. Thank you.


It is not that your ideas and opinion run counter to mine. There are people that have different ideas and opinions than mine that I can respect because they back up their beliefs with logic. But you just seem to enjoy making light of what I consider a very serious situation. Therefore, you apparently are doing nothing but wasting our time on here.


"wasting OUR time.."??

Very presumptious to speak for others. Don't you think? Hmmmm.

Yes. It is a very serious matter. Besides the tiring euro-centric attitudes expressed by more than a few here, I'm equally concerned as to the situation faced by the Traditionals of the Six Nations vs. the tribal/u.s. cold war in effect.
_________________________

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http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1030780 --- 05/29/09 02:38 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Yet when myself and others have suggested we should give California back to Mexico you don't reply. When I suggest that you sell your land in Ontario County and donate the money to the Indians, you don't reply. It is easy to give away someone elses money. You are just a phony for sure. You can't put your money where your mouth is. You are just a blow hard.
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#1030783 --- 05/29/09 02:44 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Yet when myself and others have suggested we should give California back to Mexico you don't reply. When I suggest that you sell your land in Ontario County and donate the money to the Indians, you don't reply. It is easy to give away someone elses money. You are just a phony for sure. You can't put your money where your mouth is. You are just a blow hard.


Yes I did reply. I said your idea to sell my Ontario County property 'had merit', and that I might have your suggestion added into my Will. My money. My reply. Is that clear now?
_________________________

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http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1030785 --- 05/29/09 02:47 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Yet when myself and others have suggested we should give California back to Mexico you don't reply. When I suggest that you sell your land in Ontario County and donate the money to the Indians, you don't reply. It is easy to give away someone elses money. You are just a phony for sure. You can't put your money where your mouth is. You are just a blow hard.


Yes I did reply. I said your idea to sell my Ontario County property 'had merit', and that I might have your suggestion added into my Will. My money. My reply. Is that clear now?


Oh ya that is great. LOL You are only willing to give up your assests to the Indians after you are dead. Other people are very worried about losing their land, businesses, etc to the Indians while they are still alive. Is that clear now?
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#1030795 --- 05/29/09 03:18 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.
_________________________

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http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1030799 --- 05/29/09 03:32 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.


Oh you are so full of baloney. That is pure BS. All of North America was once occupied by the Indians, was it not? Why don't we give it all back to them? Do you think the people who own land in Seneca/Cayuga counties now being claimed by the 150 member "Cayuga Nation" that was owned by white people for hundreds of years brought their land thinking that someday the Indians would try to reclaim it? I am sure that was the farthest thing from their minds.

And you have never addressed California once belonging to Mexico, I notice.
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#1030800 --- 05/29/09 03:35 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070725100147AA5reY9

Some nuts think part of the US belongs to Mexico.Are they willing to give Mexico back to Spain or Guatemala?

Mexico stole California for example from Spain, who in turn stole it from the Indian tribes that lived in California at the time. There were never any mexicans in California (not one) before Mexico stole the land from Spain or the California Indians. Also The Russians had settlements that were in turn taken by Mexico so the claim that California some how is part of Mexico by right is really silly but I'd love to hear what the illegal immigration crowd that supports this fantasy of Mexico having a moral right to California thinks.

Would they give it back to the Indians and have all those of Mexican and European descent leave the State to the few remaining native people?

By the Way both Spain and even France could make a claim for all of Mexico now if they support turning the land back to the "real" owners.

Where would it stop? Don't forget that 150 years before the Spanish came to Mexico that the Aztecs were stealing land form the Mayans in the South of Mexico...
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#1030805 --- 05/29/09 03:45 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.


So if tommorrow some Indian tribe laid claim to your 8 acres in Ontario County you would just hand it over to them without a fight? That is the biggest crock of bull I have heard on here in quite a while. You would be fighting them for it tooth and nail.
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#1030807 --- 05/29/09 03:49 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070725100147AA5reY9

Well, let's see....parts of the present-day United States used to belong to Mexico...which used to belong to Spain...which used to belong to the Holy Roman Empire, the Moors before them, and the Romans before them...and I'm not really sure past that.
On the other hand, it used to be in the hands of the Aztecs...and current evidence supports the claim that people skirted down the coast of North and South America after having originally made it across the Bering Strait from present-day Russia.

The premise of all of this "return the land to the original owners" nonsense is that no one group actually originally "owned" the land. Just because some ancient agronomers worked an area does not make it "theirs". The people who feel this way need to learn to accept reality for what it is and get over it.
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#1030821 --- 05/29/09 04:32 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
To back your theory. The Cayugas were not the original owners of the lands in NYS. They were driven north to this area by other tribes in southern United States. When they arrived in this area they in turn drove out other tribes.

Quoted from A CAYUGA CHRONICLE
by Warren L. Hickman

"Unlike some other Indian tribes, the Cayuga had no "ancestral lands". Driven into central New York by other Indians, they in turn drove out tribes to which that area was ancestral land. By the time of the Revolutionary War there were relatively few full-blood Cayugas. So many captive Hurons and Eries had been adopted into the tribe to replace warriors killed in raids throughout the Piedmont from New Jersey to Alabama that most of the tribe could no longer claim more than partial Cayuga lineage."
_________________________



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#1030849 --- 05/29/09 05:47 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.


So if tommorrow some Indian tribe laid claim to your 8 acres in Ontario County you would just hand it over to them without a fight? That is the biggest crock of bull I have heard on here in quite a while. You would be fighting them for it tooth and nail.


Your quite wrong actually.
_________________________

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http://www.canorml.org

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#1030892 --- 05/29/09 06:56 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
SkySoldier Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 25300
Loc: Finger Lakes National Forest, ...
[quote=SilverFox]To back your theory. The Cayugas were not the original owners of the lands in NYS. They were driven north to this area by other tribes in southern United States. When they arrived in this area they in turn drove out other tribes.

Quoted from A CAYUGA CHRONICLE
by Warren L. Hickman

"Unlike some other Indian tribes, the Cayuga had no "ancestral lands". Driven into central New York by other Indians, they in turn drove out tribes to which that area was ancestral land. By the time of the Revolutionary War there were relatively few full-blood Cayugas. So many captive Hurons and Eries had been adopted into the tribe to replace warriors killed in raids throughout the Piedmont from New Jersey to Alabama that most of the tribe could no longer claim more than partial Cayuga lineage." [quote]
_________________________
America has problems.

We can fix that.

America is not THE problem.

Next time. Vote for the AMERICAN.


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#1031193 --- 05/30/09 11:49 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.


why are you waiting to give it back to them for free?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1031195 --- 05/30/09 11:51 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?



_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1031268 --- 05/30/09 04:51 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?



Your words bz...not mine.
_________________________

LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1031269 --- 05/30/09 04:52 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.


why are you waiting to give it back to them for free?




A thoughtful idea. Maybe I will.
_________________________

LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1031275 --- 05/30/09 05:14 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?



Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.
_________________________
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#1031293 --- 05/30/09 06:24 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?





Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?
_________________________

LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1031312 --- 05/30/09 06:44 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?





Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?
_________________________
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#1031324 --- 05/30/09 06:50 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.
_________________________

LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1031349 --- 05/30/09 07:05 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


All you do is talk in generalities. Should we all move back to Europe, Africa, etc?
_________________________
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#1031351 --- 05/30/09 07:08 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?


Can't








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


All you do is talk in generalities. Should we all move back to Europe, Africa, etc?


If folks were so inclined. Yes.
So. What is the price for cultural genocide?
_________________________

LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1031357 --- 05/30/09 07:13 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?


Can't








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


All you do is talk in generalities. Should we all move back to Europe, Africa, etc?


If folks were so inclined. Yes.
So. What is the price for cultural genocide?


But what if they are not so inclined? I have read on here where the Indians have been paid eight times for the land they are now claiming.
_________________________
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#1031363 --- 05/30/09 07:17 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?


Can't








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


All you do is talk in generalities. Should we all move back to Europe, Africa, etc?


If folks were so inclined. Yes.
So. What is the price for cultural genocide?


But what if they are not so inclined? I have read on here where the Indians have been paid eight times for the land they are now claiming.


Choices, of course.
Eight times 8,000,000. Never enough cash to cover euro-settler crimes of genocide against the indigenous folks in the Americas.
_________________________

LONG LIVE AARON COMETBUS!
http://www.freakradio.org
http://www.canorml.org

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#1031366 --- 05/30/09 07:19 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Santa_Cruzer]If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?


Can't








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


All you do is talk in generalities. Should we all move back to Europe, Africa, etc?


If folks were so inclined. Yes.
So. What is the price for cultural genocide?


But what if they are not so inclined? I have read on here where the Indians have been paid eight times for the land they are now claiming.


Choices, of course.
Eight times 8,000,000. Never enough cash to cover euro-settler crimes of genocide against the indigenous folks in the Americas. [/quote]

It has been posted on here that far worse was done to black Americans than Indian Americans and they have not been paid a dime for it. Should they also?
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#1031371 --- 05/30/09 07:21 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
[quote=bluezone][quote=Santa_Cruzer]If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?


Can't








Your words bz...not mine.


??? So didn't the Indians own this whole continent? You comments are so confused sometimes it is very hard to debate with you.


Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership. I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?



Whats to debate is if we should give back land and how much. How much land should we give them? All they want?


Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


All you do is talk in generalities. Should we all move back to Europe, Africa, etc?


If folks were so inclined. Yes.
So. What is the price for cultural genocide?


But what if they are not so inclined? I have read on here where the Indians have been paid eight times for the land they are now claiming.


Choices, of course.
Eight times 8,000,000. Never enough cash to cover euro-settler crimes of genocide against the indigenous folks in the Americas. [/quote]

It has been posted on here that far worse was done to black Americans than Indian Americans and they have not been paid a dime for it. Should they also? [/quote]

I think so. Better to bring your question to Black folks.
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#1031411 --- 05/30/09 09:27 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
pixie Offline
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Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
So what, were all suppose to just leave, do you think there is some where 300 million people could all go so 150 can keep the tax they illegally collect, with out American citizens to support the welfare given to the Indians, welfare because they could never get on with integrating into society. Who would pave their roads, who would provide their medical , who would generate their power, who would gamble at the casinos, who would buy there cigs , and best of all where would they buy the booze. Lets be real honest its all about tax money grab, how can they wiggle and squirm just out side the law and morality to make a few Indian chiefs rich while the rest wallow in poverty.
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#1031419 --- 05/30/09 09:53 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Forcing indigenous folks into this foul western culture was a cruel trap. Worry not, their Traditionals will ultimately 'bat last', ending the tribal/BIA black hole. Offering US a better life path example too (as they always have).
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#1031470 --- 05/31/09 09:50 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
pixie Offline
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Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
So SC you want to go back to hunting with arrows and living with war between tribes. I think what you believe was a paradise was in fact a paradox. The indians were so smart they did not even advance the bow and arrow in 10,000 years. Indians were very vicious and brutal on their own people way before we showed up.

USA beat the Indians in a war the Indians were very much a party too. Sorry you lost now get over it. Yep Indians are part of the land, live in harmony with nature , bla bla bla is that why the government is now paying to clean up huge piles of rusting steel drums full of very bad industrial waste on Indian reservations in the mid west. Seems the local Indians though of a illegal quick way to make money and get rich sound familiar. They got paid big bucks to illegally store chemical waste on there land, with out knowing the final consequences. And we keep paying, and paying for every aspect over and over again just for the very small Indian population left. So much for your Indian traditionals offering a better life path. Indian life path is selling cigs, transporting drugs and illegal people over borders, tax evasion,gambling and waste poluting chemical storage, whats next I can only imagine.
Ps if you do not like the foul western culture dont let the door hit you in the butt as you leave the country. Pss you sound like some idiot spouting idealistic phrases.


Edited by pixie (05/31/09 09:54 AM)
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#1031562 --- 05/31/09 01:08 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: pixie
So SC you want to go back to hunting with arrows and living with war between tribes. I think what you believe was a paradise was in fact a paradox. The indians were so smart they did not even advance the bow and arrow in 10,000 years. Indians were very vicious and brutal on their own people way before we showed up.

USA beat the Indians in a war the Indians were very much a party too. Sorry you lost now get over it. Yep Indians are part of the land, live in harmony with nature , bla bla bla is that why the government is now paying to clean up huge piles of rusting steel drums full of very bad industrial waste on Indian reservations in the mid west. Seems the local Indians though of a illegal quick way to make money and get rich sound familiar. They got paid big bucks to illegally store chemical waste on there land, with out knowing the final consequences. And we keep paying, and paying for every aspect over and over again just for the very small Indian population left. So much for your Indian traditionals offering a better life path. Indian life path is selling cigs, transporting drugs and illegal people over borders, tax evasion,gambling and waste poluting chemical storage, whats next I can only imagine.
Ps if you do not like the foul western culture dont let the door hit you in the butt as you leave the country. Pss you sound like some idiot spouting idealistic phrases.



You actually ARE a racist....how SHOCKING indeed!
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#1031601 --- 05/31/09 03:24 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
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Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
If my property was within the settler-occupied lands of contention my decision would quite easy.

Do you live on the moon?
Thought that the indians "owned" this whole continent and that would include your property?

Your words bz...not mine.


Is it not your position that it is indian land?
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#1031602 --- 05/31/09 03:25 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Sure. My measly 8 Ontario County acres is available to the Senecas if they want it.

why are you waiting to give it back to them for free?

A thoughtful idea. Maybe I will.


Maybe???
Is that to suggest that it is not indian land?
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#1031603 --- 05/31/09 03:28 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership.

Nomads did not own land they just wandered.

Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?


So what reservation do you live on?
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#1031607 --- 05/31/09 03:32 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer

Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


Examples?
How much is owed to the Algonquin by the Cayugas?

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#1031619 --- 05/31/09 04:07 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Loc: Westside
"lands of contention" - Current lands claims area.

Yes.
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#1031620 --- 05/31/09 04:09 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
"lands of contention" - Current lands claims area.
Yes.


Sorry but they lost their land claim.
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#1031622 --- 05/31/09 04:11 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
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Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer

Whats the price of cultural genocide?...hmmmm.


Examples?
How much is owed to the Algonquin by the Cayugas?



Ask the Cayugas what they think is fitting concerning the Algonquins. As an euro-american U.S. citizen it's the blood on OUR hands which concerns me.
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#1031625 --- 05/31/09 04:15 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
As an euro-american U.S. citizen it's the blood on OUR hands which concerns me.


You have blood on your hands?
Where is your homeland?
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#1031629 --- 05/31/09 04:18 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Indigenous folks have a different worldview regarding ownership.

Nomads did not own land they just wandered.

Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
I'm down with the original peoples. What to 'debate'?


So what reservation do you live on?

Nomadic societies and seasonal lifeways are not the same. Many indigenous peoples existed within areas of 100sq. miles for generations.



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#1031631 --- 05/31/09 04:20 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
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Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
"lands of contention" - Current lands claims area.
Yes.


Sorry but they lost their land claim.




Traditional societies generally identified themselves as part of the land and it's various life forms. 'All my Relations'.
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#1031636 --- 05/31/09 04:23 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
As an euro-american U.S. citizen it's the blood on OUR hands which concerns me.


You have blood on your hands?
Where is your homeland?

I'm euro-american. A citizen of the United States. A prison house of nations. Pax-Americana, colonization and occupation is ALWAYS met with resistance, a bloody affair.

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#1031652 --- 05/31/09 04:41 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
I'm euro-american. A citizen of the United States. A prison house of nations. Pax-Americana, colonization and occupation is ALWAYS met with resistance, a bloody affair.


Have you renounced your US citizenship yet?
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#1031655 --- 05/31/09 04:44 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
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Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
I'm euro-american. A citizen of the United States. A prison house of nations. Pax-Americana, colonization and occupation is ALWAYS met with resistance, a bloody affair.


Have you renounced your US citizenship yet?

No.

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#1031659 --- 05/31/09 04:50 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone

Have you renounced your US citizenship yet?


No.


And why not?

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#1031670 --- 05/31/09 05:05 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone

Have you renounced your US citizenship yet?


No.


And why not?



Why should I? Did all Germans flee Hitler's regime?
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#1031732 --- 05/31/09 07:17 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
pixie Offline
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Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
I can see the casinos in Siberia now.
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#1031740 --- 05/31/09 07:26 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
You actually ARE a racist....how SHOCKING indeed!

Hey Troll I am not a racist just some one who does not like paying more than my share of tax's when groups are taking advantage of us. Unlike your backward look at life, I do care if I lose money. If your so displeased with your life in the USA do something about it. move. please .
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#1031863 --- 06/01/09 04:21 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer

Why should I? Did all Germans flee Hitler's regime?


Are you comparing present day USA to hitler?
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#1031864 --- 06/01/09 04:22 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pixie
You actually ARE a racist....how SHOCKING indeed!

Hey Troll I am not a racist just some one who does not like paying more than my share of tax's when groups are taking advantage of us. Unlike your backward look at life, I do care if I lose money. If your so displeased with your life in the USA do something about it. move. please .


This is directed at Santa?
correct?
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#1031986 --- 06/01/09 08:03 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
sorry yes santa the troll who is missing a few troll parts, he is the original euro trash settler lol lol
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#1032434 --- 06/02/09 08:21 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
If 20,000 acres comes off the taxes roles who will make up the difference?
If hundreds of millions of untaxed gas and cigs are sold does this not effect the local and state economy?
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#1033855 --- 06/05/09 10:51 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: newsman38]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: newsman38
Lawmakers in Cayuga, Seneca counties plan to organize opposition to Cayuga Indian Nation's land-into-trust plans

Lawmakers from Cayuga and Seneca counties are planning a joint meeting Monday to start mounting opposition to the Cayuga Indian Nation's bid for federal trust land.

The meeting was called after both counties received the Cayugas' draft environmental impact statement, which supports the nation's trust application.

The Cayugas have asked the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs to place into trust 125 acres of ancestral land they own. The trust designation would make the land sovereign and tax-free forever.

In the document, which The Post-Standard obtained Thursday, the Cayugas restate their plan to re-establish their sovereign homeland around Cayuga Lake and to reopen their Class II video gaming halls in Union Springs and Seneca Falls.

"The reestablishment of gaming facilities as a revenue source is critical to the nation's fiscal and cultural well-being," the document says.

As part of the application process, the BIA has scheduled a public hearing on the trust application next month. It will be held at the New York State Chiropractic College in Seneca Falls on June 17, and the BIA will accept written comments from May 22 to July 6.

"I think this is a very critical time for us to get out the opposition to putting that land into trust," Cayuga County Legislature Chairman Peter Tortorici said.

Syracuse lawyer Daniel French, who represents the Cayugas, said the nation is pleased the application process is moving forward. He also said he believes it is only a matter of time before the Cayugas' land is placed into trust.

The counties, joined by the Cayuga-Seneca chapter of Upstate Citizens for Equality, say awarding trust land to the Cayugas will put a greater tax burden on other property owners and give the nation a competitive edge over businesses that have to pay taxes.

"It's just not a fair ballgame," said UCE Chairman Richard Tallcot.

Legislators plan to mount land-trust opposition in Cayuga, Seneca counties.
Friday, May 15, 2009
By Scott Rapp



Will Paterson and AG Cuomo be there to support the county and state?


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#1033867 --- 06/05/09 11:04 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
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Loc: Waterloo
I seriously doubt they would show their faces.
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#1033869 --- 06/05/09 11:06 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
It is their job to represent NY taxpayers.
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#1033957 --- 06/05/09 02:19 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
It is their job to represent NY taxpayers.


You mean 'to enforce state laws'.

Sticky biz, dealing with other nations in ones back yard ain't it?
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#1033964 --- 06/05/09 02:54 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
It is their job to represent NY taxpayers.


You mean 'to enforce state laws'.

Sticky biz, dealing with other nations in ones back yard ain't it?


The state law is that Native Americans must pay sales tax on any item not sold to another member of their tribe. Not enforcing those law means they are not doing their job.
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#1033995 --- 06/05/09 03:43 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
It is their job to represent NY taxpayers.


You mean 'to enforce state laws'.

Sticky biz, dealing with other nations in ones back yard ain't it?


The state law is that Native Americans must pay sales tax on any item not sold to another member of their tribe. Not enforcing those law means they are not doing their job.


So. Why do you suppose the Gov. hasn't jumped into the fray?
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#1033997 --- 06/05/09 03:44 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
It is their job to represent NY taxpayers.


You mean 'to enforce state laws'.

Sticky biz, dealing with other nations in ones back yard ain't it?


The state law is that Native Americans must pay sales tax on any item not sold to another member of their tribe. Not enforcing those law means they are not doing their job.


So. Why do you suppose the Gov. hasn't jumped into the fray?


As grinch says the Indians are paying them off.
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#1033999 --- 06/05/09 03:45 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
you know santa if you play that nation card to much it just may well backfire, the usa could isolate you , turn off the power , water, and health systems, stop paying billions to educate , feed and provide for the so called nations. With 50 seperate indian nations in the usa they would fight each other for every little casino or gas sales. Its smart to not bite the hand that feeds you. Have you applied to the UN yet.
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#1034005 --- 06/05/09 03:51 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
It is their job to represent NY taxpayers.


You mean 'to enforce state laws'.

Sticky biz, dealing with other nations in ones back yard ain't it?


The state law is that Native Americans must pay sales tax on any item not sold to another member of their tribe. Not enforcing those law means they are not doing their job.


So. Why do you suppose the Gov. hasn't jumped into the fray?


As grinch says the Indians are paying them off.



"Indians are paying them off."

Then, of course you've ALREADY notified the attorney generals office of YOUR knowledge that New York State officials are accepting pay-offs from Native Nation(s)? Is that correct Kyle?

What was their response?
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#1034117 --- 06/05/09 11:30 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
AG is the son of the former governor that allowed the illegal Turning Stone Casino to be opened. Seriously do you think he would really speak out or do anything about any of this?
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#1034122 --- 06/05/09 11:41 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
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Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
AG is the son of the former governor that allowed the illegal Turning Stone Casino to be opened. Seriously do you think he would really speak out or do anything about any of this?


Are you suggesting that alleged corruption involving 'payoffs' should be ignored rather than agressively pursued? Seems quite UNpatriotic to withold such knowledge from authorities, don't you think?
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#1034168 --- 06/06/09 06:13 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
grinch Offline
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Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Unless one has direct knowledge of payoffs and corruption one can only speculate. If one has direct knowledge of this occuring they have a duty to report it to the proper authorities. Often that entails a personal sacrifice and few are willing to make such a move.


Corruption exists in many forms and comes in all shapes and sizes. When authorities are refusing to enforce established law one can speculate as to why this is occurring. It is obvious the Tribes are milking the system for millions of dollars by refusing to collect and remit sales taxes and are allowed to continue doing so. Businessmen and individuals across the state are lobbying the governor and the Legislature to level the playing the field by enforcing the law to no avail. In the meantime they raise taxes on everything else in a desperate attempt to close the budget gap.

Why do they refuse to enforce the law and collect the millions of tax dollars due from sales, excise and property taxes? Why are our senators and governor lobbying the BIA to change their policy on off reservation casinos?

Of course one reason is they are avoiding a confrontation such as occurred with the Onondagas, Senecas and Mohawks in past years. That is understandable but inaction merely delays the solution to the problem.

It is difficult to believe the authorities have justice or the best interest of the Tribes or their consitutents in mind and are willing to endure the political fallout through their current course of action or lack of.

At the attached Url you can read of the most notorious lobbyist in recent history. Someone blew the whistle on this guy, perhaps one who was bilked of money or did not share in the proceeds. Tribes were defrauded as well. Tribes and individuals have learned from his mistakes. Does his counterpart exist elsewhere, perhaps in New York State?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff


Edited by grinch (06/06/09 06:20 AM)

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#1034356 --- 06/06/09 07:29 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
AG is the son of the former governor that allowed the illegal Turning Stone Casino to be opened. Seriously do you think he would really speak out or do anything about any of this?


Are you suggesting that alleged corruption involving 'payoffs' should be ignored rather than agressively pursued? Seems quite UNpatriotic to withold such knowledge from authorities, don't you think?



grinch explained it very well here. You keep trying to put words in peoples mouths, Santa.

Thank you, grinch.
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#1035646 --- 06/09/09 09:14 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
AG is the son of the former governor that allowed the illegal Turning Stone Casino to be opened. Seriously do you think he would really speak out or do anything about any of this?


Paterson and AG Cuomo need to be walked out of office.

_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1035666 --- 06/09/09 10:05 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
For clarification. I am not accusing AG Cuomo but merely pointing out the connection. I believe because of that connection he would hesitate to be too involved in actions against Turning Stone, etc. I think he is in a difficult spot and trying to stay quiet and distance himself from all of this.
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#1035722 --- 06/09/09 02:31 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Legal setback for Oneida Indian Nation Casino

y SIMON YIRKA-FOLSOM
Tue, Oct 11, 2005

Gazette staff writer

An appeal filed by the Oneida Indian Nation was rejected recently by the Appellate Division- Fourth Department of the State Supreme Court in Rochester, New York.

The appeal sought to overturn a trial court ruling which called into question the legality of the Oneida-operated Turning Stone Casino in Verona, Oneida County. The trial court ruled in favor of the Upstate Citizens for Equality, or UCE, an anti-gambling group based in Central New York. The ruling stated that the compact the Oneidas entered into in 1993 with former Gov. Mario Cuomo was illegal , because Cuomo did not have approval from the Legislature.

“Without a valid compact between New York and the Oneidas, the law says there can be no gambling, on or off reservation land,” said Cornelius D. Murray, the attorney representing UCE.

According to Murray, the Oneidas appealed the decision last year, arguing that they were not a party to the case, and therefore the trial court lacked jurisdiction, but the Appellate Division rejected the argument. Murray added that the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in City of Sherrill v. Oneida Indian Nation states that the land owned by the Oneidas is not actually “Indian land.” This means that the land is not exempt from federal and state law, which requires the tribe to pay taxes.

“If anybody tried to do what the Oneidas are doing, we’d get laughed into jail so fast it would make your head spin,” said Murray. “I don’t think anybody has the stomach to enforce the law.”
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1035723 --- 06/09/09 02:33 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
...U.S. Supreme Court ruling in City of Sherrill v. Oneida Indian Nation states that the land owned by the Oneidas is not actually “Indian land.” This means that the land is not exempt from federal and state law, which requires the tribe to pay taxes.



Same applies to the Cayugas. Pay your taxes or see JAIL TIME...........
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1035731 --- 06/09/09 02:47 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
They should be thankful they are going to an American jail and not a North Korean jail!
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#1036919 --- 06/12/09 07:29 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
Updated: 06/12/2009 06:04 AM
By: Bill Carey

AUBURN, N.Y. -- The message from a host of Cayuga County officials was a simple one. If the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs agrees to allow the Cayuga Indians to place land into federal trust, tax losses for local schools and governments will be substantial and local businesses competing with Indian enterprises will be hurt.

“This is any business. Towing businesses. This is garages. Anything that can operate tax free on land in trust land can certainly affect the businesses here,” said Cayuga County legislator David Axton.

And the officials say they have numbers to back up their claims. Just last year, Cayuga and Seneca County authorities shut down cigarette sales by two service stations operated by the Cayuga Nation, claiming they were evading tax laws. The county has surveyed other convenience stores in the area and says most have seen increases in cigarette sales of 20 to 40 percent since that shutdown. They estimate they may have been losing millions in tax revenues prior to the action.

Cayuga and Seneca counties were the first to take action to disrupt cigarette sales by an Indian nation. They were hoping the message would be clear in Albany.

Governor Paterson has already signed legislation calling for collection of taxes on Indian cigarette sales and, in Cayuga County, they say a state facing billions in red ink should look at the potential windfall.

Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
The long running dispute over land claims by the Cayuga Indians and the insistence of Cayuga and Seneca counties on their rights to tax revenues is about to heat up again. At issue, the Cayugas move to have the federal government allow 130 acres of land to be put into federal trust, exempting it from local taxes. Our Bill Carey says the campaign to block the move is underway.

“You're talking $30 million from two little convenience stores . You multiply that, times the Smoking Joes, 110 of those, the Sav-Ons in Oneida, the Long Island, all the millions of cigarettes they're selling down there, it's about a billion dollars in taxes a year that the state's missing out on ,” said Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann.

Some counties have opened negotiations with various Indian groups hoping to settle land claims and tax issues. Cayuga County hasn't taken that route.

“We have no discussions going on in the legislature about any kind of settlement,” said Cayuga County Legislature Chairman Peter Tortorici.

The case against sovereignty and against placement of land into trust, they say, is clear.

The hearing by the Bureau of Indian Affairs is due on June 17th in Seneca Falls.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1037122 --- 06/12/09 04:29 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
I am posting a template of a letter prepared by the attorneys representing Seneca and Cayuga Co's which can be found on their web site. It seems to cover most all objections to the BIA granting trust status to lands owned by the Cayuga. You can edit it and add any other objection you might have as well when it it is in your word processor.

Some of us may not be able to extract this letter from that web site or to print it, if you have a problem, highlight this version starting with Mr Keel's name ending where you see Sincerely at the bottom, right click, then click save, go to your word processor and click paste. You can then add your name, address and date submitted at the top, edit however you like, then print it. Sign it at the bottom after it is printed.

Everyone should get involved and submit remarks either in your own words or copy this letter and mail to Mr Keel, fax it (see instructions on the legal web site), or hand carry it to the NYS Ch College Wed June 17th and submit for inclusion in the record.




Mr. Franklin Keel, Regional Director
Eastern Regional Office
Bureau of Indian Affairs
545 Marriott Drive
Suite 700
Nashville, TN 37214

RE: DEIS Comments, Cayuga Indian Nation of New York Trust Acquisition Project

Dear Mr. Keel:

This letter contains our comments on the Draft Environmental Impact Statement with respect to the Cayuga Indian Nation's Land into Trust Application. We oppose the land-into-trust application and urge the Bureau of Indian Affairs to deny the application in all respects, including for the reasons set forth in this letter.


Taxes:
Once land is placed into trust, it becomes exempt from local property taxes, special district charges and other fees shared by users of the community infrastructure such as roads, sewers and more.
Under any analysis, the removal of the subject lands from tax rolls will have a significant adverse impact on the communities in Seneca county and Cayuga county.
Governmental entities that derive revenue from property to maintain infrastructure and community services include the relevant counties, towns and villages and local school, fire, sewer and water districts.
New York derives substantial revenues from sales taxes and excise taxes due on sales of taxable goods, including gasoline and tobacco products. The Cayuga Indian Nation is not collecting New York sales and excise taxes (and therefore not remitting taxes to the state) normally due on the sale of taxable goods to non-tribal members. Non-collection of these taxes has and will continue to create ongoing reductions in such tax collections and reduction in local share of those taxes paid to our communities.
An approved trust application (and any future applications that may be granted) will result in a tax shifting that will place greater and greater tax burden on fewer property owners, particularly as properties taken into trust are inevitably developed or are continued to be developed. This unfair tax burden will inhibit private sector investment and job growth in the region and burden current non-Cayuga Indian Nation businesses and residents remitting such taxes.
The inevitable future development and build-out of trust properties will exacerbate the loss of taxes that would be paid on the trust properties and by Cayuga Indian Nation businesses.

Infrastructure/ Services:
Infrastructure maintenance, police protection, fire protection, emergency services and other public services require revenues from property taxes and assessments to support same. The loss of tax and assessment revenue generated from the Cayuga Indian Nation trust properties will impose the cost of such referenced local services on a smaller group of property owners thus increasing the unit cost for those services. Such services will be continued to be used by the Cayuga Indian Nation properties taken into trust and persons occupying such properties (should the application be granted) but without the Cayuga Indian Nation trust properties paying any taxes or assessments.
Trust properties will continue to use community infrastructure (roads, emergency services etc.), yet those properties (and activities on them) will be exempt from sharing in the cost to maintain such infrastructure and pay for services occupants of trust properties will continue to use.
The development and all but certain expansion of Cayuga Indian Nation lands including Cayuga Indian Nation operations, retail facilities and gaming will increase the demand on community services provided by local and state governments. Certain of these services will continue to be undertaken by local governments without the payment of any taxes or assessments for properties which are the subject of Cayuga Indian Nation applications and/or future applications.

Unfair Competition:
The Cayuga Indian Nation enjoys a significant economic advantage over competing businesses in operating its commercial enterprises and not charging or collecting state taxes. Non-Indian business, which must pay taxes, may be unable to compete and be forced to decrease the size of their operations (and as a result decrease employees) or shut down, resulting in losses of jobs, loss and businesses additional lost tax and special assessment revenues.
Sales at gas stations and cigarettes sales undoubtedly suffer when competing enterprises are charging lower prices by refusing to collect required taxes. By virtue of Cayuga Indian Nation enterprises not remitting sales and excise taxes they are able to offer their customers lower prices, therefore attracting more customers and substantially undercutting their competitors.

Regulatory Jurisdiction:
States, counties, towns and villages will lose any ability to regulate activities on the trust properties, including any activities that take place on such properties that impact the environment and natural resources including the air, soil and water.
Cayuga Nation sovereignty over the subject lands will result in a patchwork of jurisdiction over the lands. The Cayuga Indian Nation lands are a part of a larger community, all connected by water, sewer, school and other community services and resources. Without the ability to apply regulatory laws to Cayuga Indian Nation trust property, State and local governments would be unable to protect the property and health of residents in the overall community with whom the Cayuga Indian Nation shares a common environment.
Land use, environmental and other regulatory laws are only effective if they are applied uniformly over an area. The patchwork removal of the proposed lands from state and local jurisdiction threatens the regulatory scheme as a whole.
In addition to the practical benefits of comprehensive state laws, rules and regulations instituted and implemented by elected representatives, the preservation of governance at the local level preserves and advances important values, among them democracy and the sharing of community burdens and benefits.
States, counties, towns and villages will lose the ability to require enforcement of fire and building codes on buildings constructed or existing on trust lands.
Land use and zoning regulations are indispensable tools in the community planning process. Zoning allows municipalities to make the most efficient use of the community's available land, while working toward the development of a balanced and cohesive community. If trust status is granted to the Cayuga Indian Nation properties, the properties granted trust status will not be subject to land use and zoning laws and the Cayuga Indian Nation can develop such properties without regard to land use conflicts or conflicts with an overall community plan.

Environmental Consequences:
New York and its municipalities enforce environmental laws to prevent damage to our natural resources and to prevent detrimental affects to all who share in the same environment. If the Cayuga Indian Nation lands are taken into trust they would be exempt from such state, county and local environmental laws, thereby posing a significant potential risk of damage or potential damage to our natural resources thereby adversely impacting residents of the counties because we all share in the same environment, and such trust status and lack of regulatory control presents threats or potential threats to our natural resources.
The inability of the State to enforce state environmental laws that protect or reduce adverse impact to scarce and irreplaceable natural resources ranging from our lakes, rivers, and groundwater, to our air and soil will in essence prevent the State from protecting the environment for all and increase the likelihood of damage and destruction of such scarce resources adversely impacting all members of our communities.

Future Development:
Given that I/we understand that the Cayuga Indian Nation has indicated it seeks to acquire more lands and that it reportedly has many acres of land located in the counties that are not part of the current land to trust applications, I/we believe the Cayuga Indian Nation will continue acquire properties within what it contends is the reservation area, make application to have such additional lands held in trust and then develop or further develop such properties resulting in increased losses of future tax and assessment revenue.
The environmental impacts of the all but inevitable likelihood of the Cayuga Indian Nation making future trust applications, and acquiring more lands and expanding its operations (i.e., gasoline sales, convenience store operations, campgrounds and gaming) and the impacts the financial drain associated with the removal of additional properties from tax rolls, including impacts to public infrastructure, social services and other services required must be considered.
The Cayuga Indian Nation's failure to state its future development plans or potential plans exacerbates the concern that the future acquisition of additional lands will result in future land-into-trust applications which will remove more lands from the obligations of taxation and assessments and remove more properties and businesses conducted on those properties from all state, county and local regulatory control.

General Comments:
The DEIS as prepared for the conveyance of lands into trust by the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York is inadequate because it does not undertake an adequate analysis of the issues I/we have highlighted in this letter.

The DEIS lacks critical information needed for a thorough review of the application and because it does not require mitigation of known adverse impacts as identified in this letter, I/we request the Bureau of Indian Affairs to withdraw the DEIS until such a time when these issues are resolved or alternatively I/we request that the "no action alternative" be selected and the Cayuga Indian Nation application to have lands conveyed into trust be denied in all respects.

We oppose the land-into-trust application submitted by the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York and urge the Bureau of Indian Affairs to deny the application in all respects, including for the reasons set forth in this letter.

The Draft Environmental Impact Statement lacks critical information needed for a thorough review of the application and because it does not require mitigation of known adverse impacts as identified in this letter, We request the Bureau of Indian Affairs to withdraw the DEIS until such a time when these issues are resolved or alternatively we urge the BIA to adopt the "no action alternative" and not grant the Cayuga Indian Nation's application for lands into trust. Thank you for the opportunity to submit our comments and concerns into the public record.

Sincerely,



Edited by grinch ( 3 seconds ago)

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#1037142 --- 06/12/09 05:59 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
While we are fighting for our very tax base that supports the largest tax supported organizations, fire departments, they schedule a convention at Turning Stone Casino. TS is an illegal casino, operated by the Oneida Tribe who refuse to pay property taxes that go to support fire fighters.

I trust that no local fire fighters or chiefs will attend this convention. If they do their budgets should be scrutinzed to see if tax payer funds were used to support this convention.

I will remember this when the FD's knock on my door soliciting funds and it will be a question I will ask before donating.

Who if any in your department attended the Fire Convention at Turning Stone? I will suggest they solicit donations from the Cayuga and the Oneida to make up for what I will no longer give.

Anyone else who feels the same should ask the same question of their fire departments.



New York State Fire Chiefs gather at Turning Stone for annual convention
Convention of state group is largest convention ever held at Turning Stone.
Sunday, June 07, 2009
By Glenn Coin
Staff writer
About 15,000 firefighters will descend on Turning Stone Resort and Casino next week, the largest convention ever held at the resort.

"Our board of directors were impressed with the facilities at Turning Stone," said Mary K. Hanlon, spokeswoman for the New York State Association of Fire Chiefs.

The convention had been in Lake George for the past three years, and was held at the state fairgrounds just west of Syracuse for eight years before that.

This year's convention will run from Wednesday to Saturday. It will include 300 exhibitors, a variety of training programs, and live burns on an 18-acre parcel of land recently transferred into trust for the Oneida Indian Nation, which owns Turning Stone.

The resort had facilities large enough for the convention and was centrally located, said Tom LaBelle, executive director of the association.

"Without getting into details, it was also quite frankly very reasonably priced for a very modern facility," he said.

LaBelle said there are also plenty of nearby attractions for firefighters, including Sylvan Beach.

"We don't expect folks to wander into the exhibits at 9 a.m. and not leave until 6 p.m.," LaBelle said. "We expect them to come in and then go out and enjoy the area."

Turning Stone has about 700 hotel rooms, not enough for everybody.

Nearby hotels are full, and rooms in the Carrier Circle area are also booked, said Danica Bryant, spokeswoman for the Syracuse Convention & Visitors Bureau.

"Over the four nights, it looks like it's 700 room-nights," she said.

Firefighters will also be trained in controlled burns on former military land on Route 365.



©2009 poststandard
Copyright 2009 syracuse.com. All Rights Reserved.

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#1037389 --- 06/13/09 07:48 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
How much more equiptment could the firefighters buy with a BILLION dollars?


Sorry but the tribes refuse to pay their share.

Who responds when a call comes from the tribes operations for fire assistance?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1038307 --- 06/15/09 01:01 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Here is a quote by Labelle of the FCA's


"Without getting into details, it was also quite frankly very reasonably priced for a very modern facility," he said.

Hello Mr LaBelle? Did it ever occur to you the reason it is very reasonably priced they do not pay taxes. The very taxes that support the fire departments and fire fighters who support your organization.

Where will you hold your convention next year and other years when your membership dries up as Fire Departments and individuals no longer can afford to support you as the taxpayer is bankrupt?

While you are are Turning Stone ask Mr Halbriter, nicely of course, to PAY HIS FIRE TAXES ON THE PROPERTIES THE ONEIDA OWN.

Ask him to please start collecting and remitting sales taxes on the goods they sell. Tell him the Fire Departments, the fire fighters and the association are dependent upon TAXPAYER MONEY folr their very existance and would he please, please pay his taxes.

Let us know what he tells you.

Wow Mr Labelle, what a great deal you got for the Association.

I WILL ASK YOU AT WHAT COST TO THE TAXPAYER.


I am editing this to add. I looked up your web site but found it is not operational and I could send you an email asking the same questions I pose here.

What say you, take your head out of the 19th hole and fix the web site so you can conduct the business your are paid to do. Paid I assume by tax dollars which the Oneida avoid paying.


Edited by grinch (06/15/09 05:02 PM)

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#1038309 --- 06/15/09 01:03 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Every fire department who has a voice in the Associations activities should ask Mr Labelle and the Board of Directors to resign for this appalling slap at the taxpayer who supports them

Think about it.


Edited by grinch (06/15/09 01:06 PM)

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#1038802 --- 06/16/09 01:07 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: grinch
While you are are Turning Stone ask Mr Halbriter, nicely of course, to PAY HIS FIRE TAXES ON THE PROPERTIES THE ONEIDA OWN.

Let us know what he tells you.



Ray will say "It employs people" just like at the BIA meetings regarding foreclosure of Turning Stone. He never speaks of the illegality of it just that "It employs people". Drug dealers employ people also but they get locked up in jail.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1039146 --- 06/17/09 05:47 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State



Reminder Notice


Please Attend
BIA Public Hearing
The Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) is holding a public hearing
on the Cayuga Indian Nation Land Into Trust Application’s
Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS)

Wednesday, June 17, 2009
6:00 - 9:00 p.m.
New York Chiropractic College
Athletic Center Gymnasium
2360 State Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148


Where to Find the DEIS
You may find the DEIS on the web site http://www.NoCayugaLandIntoTrust.Net. The BIA has provided copies of the DEIS for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:

Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Seneca Falls Library
47 Cayuga St.
Seneca Falls, NY 13148
Lakeside Trading
299 Cayuga Street
Union Springs, NY 13160

Springport Free Library
171 Cayuga St., P.O. Box 501
Union Springs, NY 13160

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#1039336 --- 06/17/09 01:14 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: grinch



Reminder Notice


Please Attend
BIA Public Hearing
The Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) is holding a public hearing
on the Cayuga Indian Nation Land Into Trust Application’s
Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS)

Wednesday, June 17, 2009
6:00 - 9:00 p.m.
New York Chiropractic College
Athletic Center Gymnasium
2360 State Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148



Where to Find the DEIS
You may find the DEIS on the web site http://www.NoCayugaLandIntoTrust.Net. The BIA has provided copies of the DEIS for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:

Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Seneca Falls Library
47 Cayuga St.
Seneca Falls, NY 13148
Lakeside Trading
299 Cayuga Street
Union Springs, NY 13160

Springport Free Library
171 Cayuga St., P.O. Box 501
Union Springs, NY 13160







_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1039356 --- 06/17/09 01:46 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
We need a lot of Cayuga County people tonight too! This is not just for Seneca County, folks.
_________________________
**** ATTENTION! BAD POLITICIANS ARE ELECTED BY GOOD PEOPLE WHO DON'T VOTE! ****

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#1039392 --- 06/17/09 02:51 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: kyle585]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
HUNDREDS EXPECTED TO ATTEND ( BE PART OF IT)



FROM THE FINGER LAKES TIMES DATED WEDNESDAY JUNE 17 2009

WEDNESDAY JUNE 17, 2009 Last modified: Wednesday, June 17, 2009


by DAVID L. SHAW/dshaw@fltimes.com

SENECA FALLS — Hundreds are expected to attend Wednesday’s much-anticipated public hearing on the draft environmental impact statement for the Cayuga Indian Nation’s land into trust application.

Strong opposition to the application is expected from local government officials and residents of the two counties.

Officials from the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs will conduct the hearing. They will listen to comments, limited to three minutes per person, about the draft report done for the BIA by AKRF of White Plains.

The report concludes that there would be little or no negative impact, environmental or otherwise, from the Cayugas placing 129 acres of land in Cayuga and Seneca counties into federal, tax-exempt trust.

Included in the 129 acres are two convenience store/gas stations operated by the Cayugas in Seneca Falls and Union Springs.

If trust status is granted, the Cayugas plan to re-open the small electronic gaming facilities in Seneca Falls and Union Springs that closed in 2004.

In addition to verbal comments at the hearing, people can submit written comments.

Options for written comments are:

n Mail, hand carry or fax comments to Franklin Keel, Regional Director, Eastern Regional Office of the BIA, 545 Marriott Drive, Suite 700, Nashville, Tenn. 37214. The fax number is (615) 564-6701.

Comments must be received by July 6.

n Written comments may be submitted to http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net. They will be forwarded to the BIA if received by June 26.

n Written comments may be mailed or e-mailed to a member of the Seneca and Cayuga Counties Task Force. They will forward them to the BIA if received by June 26.

Names, addresses and e-mail addresses of task force members are available at http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net.

The draft statement can be found at http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net or in hard copy form at the Cayuga Nation’s LakeSide Trading stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs; the Seneca Falls Library, 47 Cayuga St.; and the Springport Free Library, 171 Cayuga St., Union Springs.

After the hearing and review of comments, a final environmental impact statement will be issued and a decision made by the BIA on the trust application.

If you go:

WHAT: Public hearing on draft environmental impact statement on Cayuga Indian Nation’s land into trust application

WHEN: 6 to 9 p.m. Wednesday.

WHERE: Athletic Center, New York Chiropractic College, Route 89, Seneca Falls

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#1039636 --- 06/18/09 07:28 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Sorry Halftown but you abandonded the land. ;\)
Canada is now your homeland. What Canada will not let you have a casino?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1039638 --- 06/18/09 07:30 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Sorry Halftown but you abandonded the land. ;\)
Canada is now your homeland. What Canada will not let you have a casino?


Why send Sullivan if the land was abandoned?

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#1039643 --- 06/18/09 07:32 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Why did the Cayugas go to Canada?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1039650 --- 06/18/09 07:36 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Why did the Cayugas go to Canada?


There you go again, not answering the question and instead throwing up a question!
Some of the Cayugas chose to go to Canada. Some chose to stay. Those are the ones I work for. As to the whys - none of those people are still alive, and obviously, as a result I have never spoken to them so I can only guess as to their reasoning.

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#1039651 --- 06/18/09 07:38 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Some of the Cayugas chose to go to Canada. Some chose to stay.


The ones that chose to stay where did they settle?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1039664 --- 06/18/09 07:48 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Some of the Cayugas chose to go to Canada. Some chose to stay.


The ones that chose to stay where did they settle?


Bluezone-
This is a one sided relationship between you and I. I'm not a fan of one sided relationships. I ask questions. You never answer them. You ask questions and I at least answer some of them. I get to the point where I can only stand so many posts full of rhetoric, smiley faces, and volume for the sake of volume.

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#1039676 --- 06/18/09 08:02 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Thought that you only offered facts?
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#1039679 --- 06/18/09 08:04 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
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Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Thought that you only offered facts?


Refer to my last post - this one is only missing the smiley face.

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#1039682 --- 06/18/09 08:08 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
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Originally Posted By: BJ Radford


Refer to my last post - this one is only missing the smiley face.


Did they stay in NY or not?
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#1039687 --- 06/18/09 08:10 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford


Refer to my last post - this one is only missing the smiley face.


Did they stay in NY or not?


How about that Sullivan question?

If you are asking if the Cayugas stayed in NY after the Sullivan campaign, the answer is yes.

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#1039690 --- 06/18/09 08:13 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
If you are asking if the Cayugas stayed in NY after the Sullivan campaign, the answer is yes.


Did they stay near Cayuga County?
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#1039811 --- 06/18/09 01:37 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford

How about that Sullivan question?

If you are asking if the Cayugas stayed in NY after the Sullivan campaign, the answer is yes.


Why are you not suing the British as your tribe sided with them and lost? The British gave you land in Canada. What no casino there?
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#1039851 --- 06/18/09 03:06 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
pixie Offline
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Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
According to 1900 census the only Cayuga Indians with the family name Halftown resided in ether Erie or just west of buffalo, its also interesting to note the family name Halftown has Russian connections , listing many with the last name Halftown in the Indian town in Erie as mixed Indian Russian descent. the 1900 census did not list any Cayuga Indians in the Seneca area.
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#1040230 --- 06/19/09 06:50 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Some of the Cayugas chose to go to Canada. Some chose to stay.



If they chose to leave their land then did they expect NY to hold it forever until they returned?

Laches........
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#1040365 --- 06/19/09 11:43 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
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Of course they did because the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua made it a federal reservation and guaranteed it to them forever - NOT!
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#1040597 --- 06/19/09 04:16 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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That must be why they had to buy the land back and now want trust for which they did not sign up for with the IRA.
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#1040607 --- 06/19/09 04:33 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Originally Posted By: bluezone
Legal setback for Oneida Indian Nation Casino

y SIMON YIRKA-FOLSOM
Tue, Oct 11, 2005

Gazette staff writer

An appeal filed by the Oneida Indian Nation was rejected recently by the Appellate Division- Fourth Department of the State Supreme Court in Rochester, New York.

The appeal sought to overturn a trial court ruling which called into question the legality of the Oneida-operated Turning Stone Casino in Verona, Oneida County. The trial court ruled in favor of the Upstate Citizens for Equality, or UCE, an anti-gambling group based in Central New York. The ruling stated that the compact the Oneidas entered into in 1993 with former Gov. Mario Cuomo was illegal , because Cuomo did not have approval from the Legislature.

“Without a valid compact between New York and the Oneidas, the law says there can be no gambling, on or off reservation land,” said Cornelius D. Murray, the attorney representing UCE.

According to Murray, the Oneidas appealed the decision last year, arguing that they were not a party to the case, and therefore the trial court lacked jurisdiction, but the Appellate Division rejected the argument. Murray added that the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in City of Sherrill v. Oneida Indian Nation states that the land owned by the Oneidas is not actually “Indian land.” This means that the land is not exempt from federal and state law, which requires the tribe to pay taxes.

“If anybody tried to do what the Oneidas are doing, we’d get laughed into jail so fast it would make your head spin,” said Murray. “I don’t think anybody has the stomach to enforce the law.”



Seneca and Cayuga Counties should contact all other counties in the state and have them write in opposition to the trust for the Cayugas as the sales taxes lost will affect the entire state. If trust is granted in NY then all other tribes in NY state will want it.
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#1040923 --- 06/20/09 04:26 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
The simplest and a secure way to comment can be found at the url posted below.

It is easy to type in your name, address and comments. If you are strugging with how to phrase it, click on this url anyway and you will find areas that list the potential negative impacts on the environment, society, taxes etc. Just highlite, copy and paste into your message.

Take time to do it or be prepared for higher and higher taxes. As one retired banker said, granting trust status to a select group will be the final nail in the coffin of Seneca County.


http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net/index.php/relevant-information/participate-now/comments

Send this information to your friends, family and associates asking for their assistance in showing a united, organized effort against this destructive policy.


Edited by grinch (06/20/09 04:32 PM)

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#1041361 --- 06/22/09 01:22 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Of course they did because the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua made it a federal reservation and guaranteed it to them forever - NOT!


The court has no choice but rule against the tribe as they would not put reservation land into trust.
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#1043179 --- 06/25/09 05:42 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
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Arguments in Oneida Indian land trust case focus on comma in 1983 federal law
by Glenn Coin / The Post-Standard
Wednesday June 24, 2009, 9:03 PM
The placement of a comma could mean the difference between the Oneida Indian Nation getting 13,000 acres of trust land or getting none at all.
Lawyers argued in court Wednesday in Albany about the significance of that comma in a 1983 federal law, and whether it meant the Oneidas were eligible for trust land.
Read one way, the placement of the comma says trust land can only go to tribes that already had trust land, and that would not include the Oneidas.
Read another way, the comma says that any tribe, including the Oneidas, could get trust land even if they didn't have any already.
It was one of many arcane and hotly contested points brought out in a 75-minute court hearing Wednesday. Lawyers for the state, the federal government, Madison and Oneida counties, and the Oneida nation appealed to U.S. District Court Judge Lawrence Kahn on matters as diverse as the legality of the Turning Stone casino and the meaning of a unanimous, 2005 U.S. Supreme Court decision.

The hearing involved three separate motions in a lawsuit brought by the state and Madison and Oneida counties against the federal government. The state and counties contend that the U.S. Department of Interior's decision in May 2008 to take 13,000 acres into trust for the Oneidas was unconstitutional.
Trust land is owned by the federal government but set aside for a tribe's use. The land is free from taxes and state and local control.
The crux of the issue is whether the federal government has the authority to take that land into trust. The state and counties say no, for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons, they argue, is that the Oneidas voted to opt out of the Indian Reorganization Act. That law gave the federal government the power to take land into trust for tribes. That law was adopted in 1934.
The Oneidas and the federal government argue, however, that a 1983 law, the Indian Land Consolidation Act, fixed that problem and made even those tribes who had originally opted out to be eligible for trust land.
That's where the comma problem comes in.
The key sentence in that 1983 law says that the government can take land into trust for any "Indian tribe, band, group, pueblo, or community, for which, or for the members of which, the United States holds lands in trust."
It's the comma after "community" that's at issue.

Does the placement of that comma mean that the restriction of already having land into trust applies only to an Indian "community," which the Oneidas were not? Or does it mean that the restriction of already having trust land applies to all of those categories, including "tribe?"
That's important because the federal government held no trust land for the Oneidas at the time. So it could, theoretically, mean the Oneidas aren't eligible for trust land.

Glenn Coin can be reached at or 470-3251.


-------------------------------------------



07-526 Carcieri v. Salazar (02/24/2009)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-526.ZO.html


NCAI notes that the ILCA’s definition of “tribe” “means any Indian tribe, band, group, pueblo, or community for which, or for the members of which, the United States holds lands in trust.” §2201. But §2201 is, by its express terms, applicable only to Chapter 24 of Title 25 of the United States Code. Ibid. The IRA is codified in Chapter 14 of Title 25. See §465. Section 2201, therefore, does not itself alter the authority granted to the Secretary by §465.

---------------------------------

There is NO COMMA in the correct document

Trust to fail for the Oneidas and the Cayugas.


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#1044182 --- 06/27/09 10:46 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Arguments in Oneida Indian land trust case focus on comma in 1983 federal law


Why is the government even wasting the time for trust for the Oneidas as they have not paid their taxes on the properties.
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#1044264 --- 06/27/09 03:42 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: bluezone]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
the Canadian goverment is so tired of tring to deal with the indian population at cornwall , as they keep closing a major bridge between USA nad Canada that they are building a new bridge which does not go through the reservation, as of today the bridge is still closed ( 30 days ) by local indian groups who have siezed the canadian custom buildings. Shows if you tick off a big enough country to often they find ways to get around the problem may cost 100 million but worth the trouble . This could happen here if the indians ever did close the 90 through way again .
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#1044319 --- 06/27/09 10:11 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: pixie]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: pixie
I can see the casinos in Siberia now.
Actually, no you can not. Russia had about 1,200 casinos and they caused so much criminal activity, political bribes and social decay that Russia outlawed them and shut them all down.

There are about 1,800 casinos in the U.S.

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#1044324 --- 06/27/09 10:25 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Santa_Cruzer]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
As grinch says the Indians are paying them off.

"Indians are paying them off."

Then, of course you've ALREADY notified the attorney generals office of YOUR knowledge that New York State officials are accepting pay-offs from Native Nation(s)? Is that correct Kyle?

What was their response?
The Attorney General's response was that it is his job to defend and protect the Governor.

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#1044486 --- 06/28/09 09:59 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: BJ Radford]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford

Refer to my last post - this one is only missing the smiley face.
Did they stay in NY or not?

How about that Sullivan question?
If you are asking if the Cayugas stayed in NY after the Sullivan campaign, the answer is yes.
You are correct. There were Cayuga here prior to and following the Sullivan expedition.

Just sticking with the facts.

1775 to 1783 _ American Revolution. The Cayuga sided with the British

1784 _ Grand River Reserve, Brantford, Ontario, Canada was established for the Iroquois tribes as appreciation by Great Britain to their allies. 1,843 Iroquois were settled there by 1785, including 381 Cayuga. In 2001 the population was 21,474.

1789 _ ALL Cayuga territory was sold to NYS by a dissident faction of Cayuga near Buffalo, which extinguished aboriginal title. Of the CEEDED territory, 64,014 acres of the state land was a retrocession, NOT a set aside, to the Cayuga tribe for their use.
1790 _ The State made an identical treaty with a dissident faction of stragglers remaining at Cayuga Lake.

1790 _ TIA passed mandating federal approval of tribal transactions

1792 _ 1790 TIA expired

1793 _ TIA passed with surrounded by settlements exception excluding states. Exception maintained in all successive Trade and Intercourse Acts through 1834 excluding areas surrounded by settlements and dealt with interstate sales, not intrastate sales. In 1834 the exception was removed. 25 USC 177 was a rewrite of the 1834 version.

1794 _ Treaty of Canandaigua recognized the 1789 Cayuga treaty with New York State.

1795 _ The Cayuga dissident faction sold most of their use rights to the state lands.

1799 _ Sullivan Expedition in retaliation of Iroquois terrorist activities and the Wyoming and Cherry Valley Massacres. Two Cayuga members were killed. Yes, the few that had separated from the tribe remained.

1807 _ The Cayuga dissident faction sold the remaining use rights to the state lands.

1812 _ The Cayuga sided with the British again in the War of 1812.

1926 _ The 1926 International Tribunal included all factions of the Cayuga, ruled the 1789, 1790, 1795 and 1807 treaties to be all one contract and ordered the U.S. to pay the real Cayuga tribe in Canada $100,000, which Congress approved and paid.


Edited by Rich_Tallcot (06/28/09 10:04 AM)

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#1044912 --- 06/29/09 08:49 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
And yet they want more?
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#1045016 --- 06/29/09 02:34 PM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: kyle585
As grinch says the Indians are paying them off.

"Indians are paying them off."

Then, of course you've ALREADY notified the attorney generals office of YOUR knowledge that New York State officials are accepting pay-offs from Native Nation(s)? Is that correct Kyle?

What was their response?
The Attorney General's response was that it is his job to defend and protect the Governor.


Did Governor Cuomo not get NY into this web with the illegal compact with the Oneidas? And his son is now the AG.
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#1045618 --- 06/30/09 03:57 PM Schumer: Revise the Land Trust Report [Re: bluezone]
newsman38 Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 4947
Loc: Fourth Estate
Schumer wants Cayuga land trust review redone

AUBURN, N.Y. -- U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer wants federal officials to do another study on how the local economy would be affected if 129 acres of upstate New York land are put into trust for the Cayuga Indian Nation.

Schumer is scheduled to join business leaders and local elected leaders Tuesday at a news conference to criticize the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs' preliminary assessment, which found there would be little or no negative impact.

Schumer says the BIA isn't taking into consideration the full economic toll of putting the land into trust, where it is exempt from state and local laws and taxes.

The land is in Cayuga and Seneca counties about 50 miles west of Syracuse. It includes two convenience store-gas stations operated by the Cayugas.

Associated Press, 06.30.09, 03:48 PM EDT

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#1045790 --- 07/01/09 06:32 AM Re: Legislators mount land-trust opposition [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: pixie
I can see the casinos in Siberia now.
Actually, no you can not. Russia had about 1,200 casinos and they caused so much criminal activity, political bribes and social decay that Russia outlawed them and shut them all down.

There are about 1,800 casinos in the U.S.


The US should remove the tribes casino shopping.
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#1047105 --- 07/05/09 04:20 PM Re: Schumer: Revise the Land Trust Report [Re: newsman38]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA


Never Forget...........


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