Still More Tribal News

Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Still More Tribal News - 03/10/14 12:16 PM

Anticipating that some may have learned to stay on topic and refrain from personal comments I lead off with the following
http://online.wsj.com/article/APee78173900b5442dbbe4a48b3db16d67.html
Tribes seek to hold ground ahead of new NY casinos

BUFFALO, N.Y. - With New York state about to take bids for its first non-Indian casinos, tribes looking to hold their ground have been upgrading their existing casinos and exploring new ones.

The Seneca Indian Nation, which operates three casinos in Buffalo, Niagara Falls and Salamanca under a 2002 compact with the state, bought 32 acres outside Rochester last week for a potential fourth location.

A day later, the Oneida Nation unveiled a $15 million investment in new cash slot machines to replace prepay terminals and a revamped loyalty program at its 20-year-old Turning Stone casino in Verona.

[They also opted for megs jackpots with other casinos which may put into question how they figure the percentages paid to the State.]

The Seneca and Oneida sites could face competition from a $350 million non-Indian casino, hotel and entertainment complex envisioned roughly midway between them in a sliver of the state separating the Seneca exclusivity zone and Oneida exclusivity zone, which also grants gaming rights to the Cayuga Indian Nation, whose reservation lies within it.

"Our location, which is virtually midway between Syracuse and Rochester, is a very attractive location because it's between two population centers and it's connected via the Thruway," said Juris Basens, vice president for casino operations at Rochester-based Wilmorite, one of several developers who have made public their plans to apply for one of the first non-Indian casino licenses to be awarded later this year.

Seneca officials, who will likely need state and federal approval for a fourth casino, said plans for the new Monroe County property have yet to be developed, but Cathy Walker, president and chief executive of Seneca Gaming Corp., appeared unfazed by the prospect of a casino two counties over.

"The market in the Rochester region is underserved, and there is sufficient market for all to do well," Walker said.

Oneida spokesman Joel Barkin said the investment in Turning Stone was among the largest in years and follows last year's $25 million addition of an entertainment and restaurant complex. "This was done in response to guest feedback and to make sure we're at the cutting edge of the gaming experience," Barkin said.

Agreements reached between Gov. Andrew Cuomo and the state's tribal leaders last year preserve vast sections in western, central and northern New York as "exclusivity zones" for tribal development only. The Seneca, Mohawk and Oneida Indian nations currently have a total of five casinos in those areas.

New York is in line for up to seven full-scale non-Indian casinos after voters in November approved a constitutional amendment to expand casino gambling as a way to create jobs, generate revenue for schools and ease property taxes.

The state's request for proposals is expected this month for the first round of as many as four casinos to be built in designated upstate areas in the Catskills, Southern Tier and Albany region. Developers have already announced proposals for casinos in Nichols, near the Pennsylvania border, Binghamton and the Ulster County towns of Ellenville and Kerhonkson

The state's Gaming Commission, headed by Hobart and Williams Smith Colleges President Mark Gearan, is expected to appoint members to a casino siting board when it meets Wednesday.

Adding to the recent casino debate this past week was a resolution by the Saratoga Springs City Council opposing a Las Vegas-style casino in that thoroughbred racing city, which is among those being eyed by developers.

"For me, quality of life doesn't mean more gambling culture," said Jonathon Newell, leader of The Dirty Harri Band, one of several artists who have joined in opposition.

Meanwhile, an online petition by the No More Casinos Coalition, with support from Finger Lakes Gaming and Racetrack and Batavia Downs, two of the state's nine racetrack/video gaming halls, had drawn more than 1,800 electronic signatures in opposition of a fourth Seneca Nation casino.

Lawmakers in Genesee, Niagara, Orleans and Wyoming counties also have opposed the Seneca plans, saying they would harm the Batavia track. The facility is owned by Western Regional Off-Track Betting, whose profits go to 15 counties.

"This region is oversaturated with casino gaming, and another facility will cause irreparable harm to thousands of businesses, families and municipalities throughout the region," said Michael Nolan, executive vice president of WROTB.

The Indian gaming industry generated $27.9 billion in 2012, according to the National Indian Gaming Commission. While it was the highest-ever total, the number has been relatively flat since 2007, when revenues totaled just over $26 billion.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/10/14 03:16 PM

Good job Rich.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/10/14 03:16 PM

Nice post. I don't gamble; it holds zero attraction for me. I think people should be allowed to gamble, if they wish, and it is not the province of government to become involved in that at all.

But government has been involved, and will be. One thing that has irritated me about Indian gambling is that it has been one more example of government picking "winners and losers"; of bestowing special treatment and favors. That is, if Indians are allowed to run casinos, then other groups should be too. In fact, as a libertarian, I think that anyone should be allowed to open a casino, or run a poker tournament or a lottery, and shouldn't need the permission of government. That's not going to happen any time soon.

I think It's a good thing that NYS has allowed other groups to open casinos, even though I don't want to live near one.

Re "saturation": I don't care if the number of casinos doubles, let's say, so that the take of the existing ones maybe will be cut in half. It's not government's business to decide how much or how little any given group or corportion should make from its operations. Competition is a good thing, including in the % of payout, which has an influence on who gambles where.

I think that, except for, and even despite, considerations of where the population centers are, and travel distances involved, people will naturally gravitate to the best run, most attractive casinos, with the best payouts, now that the government-bestowed, artificial monopoly has been eased somewhat, and somewhat more competition has been allowed.

The Indians, because of the need to meet the new competition, now have the incentive to make some changes and upgrades, and have started to do so.

Let the games begin!

Also, you and I were both in the CLC area, and we were sued, over historical events and actions that we had taken no part in. Neither of us ended up losing any land because of the suit, but still, being sued is personal, and a simplistic person might well take our stance on the NYS Indian issue to be largely a personal one. I disagree; it's a matter of fairness. Because NY was a Colony, and because of the course of the Revolution, and treaties having been made with NY, rather than with the US, NY is a unique case. Also, the Conquest here, and brutal as conquests are, was not the same as the Western US genocide. For one thing, there are no deserts or badlands here, and although Eastern Indians were restricted and confined, their reservations still can't be described as open air concentration camps, on land fit for neither cow nor crop. To me, fi, the Onondaga Res looks as good as any other CNY patch of land.

To the extent that the Indians were treated unfairly in the East, that occurred by the pressure of the oncoming whites, as a whole, as much as by government actions. In the West, after the Civil War, in which Sherman, et al, had developed the techniques of total war, including the organized practice of deliberate starvation, bank robbery, theft of personal property, destruction of personal property and public infrastructure, rape, and murder, it was, much more, the announced policy of the USG, which used most of those techniques against the Indians. If the Indians had had banks, all would have been used.

I ramble, but I mean to say that the fact that you are still involved and concerned with the NYS issue tells me that, as I've long thought, you view it as an issue of law and fairness, rather than as some sort of personal vendetta, as the more simplistically reductionist and pejorative usually choose to frame it.

And, now that you're down in the area of the 5 "Civilized" tribes, do you want to share any thoughts on any issues that may be existing there, or do you, perhaps, not want to confuse/dilute this thread? I just wrote of organized, announced USG policy; that really started with Jackson's US military actions against the Seminoles, and the removal of the Cherokees and the other tribes to the West, and related events.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/10/14 03:18 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Nice post. I don't gamble; it holds zero attraction for me. I think people should be allowed to gamble, if they wish, and it is not the province of government to become involved in that at all.

On thing that has irritated me about Indian gambling is that it has been one more example of government picking "winners and loser"; of bestowing special treatment and favors. That is, if Indians are allowed to run casinos, then other groups should be too.
I totally agree.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/10/14 11:23 PM

It never has been personal to me. Once I passed information overload it became a matter of principle. My involvement with CERA keeps me active throughout the country. The feds use tribes for land grabs and land status is everything. If it becomes federal trust land it is not just taxes which do not apply. It is jurisdiction and territorial status where the U.S. Constitution does not apply. The only things that do apply are the 7 crimes in the Major Crimes Act and justice is a farce. I will refrain from ramble but I could do so easily.

My issue with NYS concerns the Oneida ROD and the precedents it could set. The amended ROD is a bigger farce, but that will work its way through the courts. It has become a chess game and the Bay Mills case may change the rules. The settlement really did not change anything because at least three lawsuits against the ROD will proceed. Bay Mills involves a tribe opening a casino on fee land in Michigan and, unlike NY, the Governor is fighting them on it.

Casinos attract those looking for something for nothing and those appendages looking to take advantage of them. They are the means to buy politicians regardless of who owns them and I think they should be legal regardless of how stupid I think they are. They bleed the host communities dry regardless of who owns them. Again, land status is the only reason I would oppose a tribal casino.

I have not become aware of any tribal issues here but I have not really checked. The Cherokee have a rez which may overlap TN and NC and they have a casino and they eliminated blood quantum requirements to be a member. There are many allegedly NA on the dating sites and the first one I dated had a goal of becoming a tribal member. Said her great grandmother was a full blood but because she married a Caucasian the marriage was not recorded and she could not prove her genealogy. I could have explained that NA genealogy is traced on the mother's side. But that is one less tribal member. Oh well. Stuck with my fifth date, a widower who was married to an NA. But he wasn't tribal and she thinks they should all pay taxes.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/12/14 01:33 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2...t_goes_int.html
Oneida Indian Nation pays $11 million to New York as sweeping settlement goes into effect

For the first time since Turning Stone casino opened in 1993, the Oneida Indian nation has started sharing its profits with the state.
The Oneidas this week paid $11 million to the state, the first installment required by the sweeping settlement ratified by a federal judge last week. That money will be transferred to Madison County in "full satisfaction of tax revenues of any kind" that the county will not get from Oneida-owned land.
The wide-ranging settlement ends decades of legal battles over land and taxes between the Oneida nation and Madison and Oneida counties. It also allows the nation to get 25,000 acres of land set aside by the federal government for the tribe's use. That land is not taxable and is not subject to state or local control.
The settlement also calls for the Oneidas to pay 25 percent of the revenues from its 2,000 slot machines at Turning Stone. The payment will be an estimated $50 million a year. In return, the Oneidas get the exclusive rights to operate a casino in nine Central New York counties.
Here's what else will happen now that the agreement is final:
-- Oneida nation police will be given police powers in Oneida County even when they're not on nation-owned land.
-- More than 13,000 acres of Oneida-owned land will be taken over by the federal government as trust land. That means the land will no longer be subject to state and local control or taxes.
-- The Oneidas can apply to have 12,000 more acres put into trust.
-- Madison and Oneida counties will drop all lawsuits challenging the tax status of Oneida nation land.
-- Madison County gets $3.5 million a year, and Oneida County gets $2.5 million a year plus 25 percent of the money the nation pays to the state. All of this money comes from the money paid by the Oneidas to the state.
-- Eight other counties will get money from the nation payment. Onondaga County is expected to get $2.5 million, which County Executive Joanie Mahoney plans to use to pay for a proposed amphitheater near Onondaga Lake.
-- The Oneidas will charge - and keep - the same sales taxes on goods that are taxed by the state, and taxes equal to what the state charges on cigarettes and gasoline
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/12/14 01:34 PM

http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20140310-003820
Higher prices for gas, cigarettes on table in settlement with Oneida Nation

The agreement does not end all legal actions involving the nation. Lawsuits initiated by groups other than the state and two counties challenging the 2008 trust land approval for the Oneidas by the U.S. Department of the Interior and last year's agreement can continue.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/12/14 01:35 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...pril-1#comments
Madison County to receive first $11 million from Oneida Nation settlement by April 1 (Update)
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/12/14 01:36 PM

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/stor...e-case/6270613/
Slow going in Seneca-Cayuga seizure Case


Also on FL1 Home page news
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/13/14 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
More than 13,000 acres of Oneida-owned land will be taken over by the federal government as trust land. That means the land will no longer be subject to state and local control or taxes.


who will own the roads and maintain them?
who will own the water, sewer, power systems and maintain them over those lands?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/13/14 03:32 PM

IF, big IF, it becomes federal trust land the federal government owns the land and everything on it and in it. The State, any affected municipalities and utility companies will probably have to get new right of ways approved by the Secretary of the DOI through the BLM (Bureau of Land Management).

Act of March 3, 1901 (25 U.S.C. § 311) authorized the Secretary to grant rights-of-way to a State or local authority for the opening an establishment of public highways in accordance with State law through Indian reservations and allotted lands.

On other trust lands everything that was maintained continues to be maintained by those that had been doing so, generally along with agreements by the tribe and federal government. There may be municipalities that dissolve and counties that merge for the obvious reasons. You can't do something with nothing. There are a myriad of issues and questions which will likely result in the State getting more lawsuits filed against it than it just had dismissed. The State could use sovereign immunity to block them, but it cannot do so against a civil rights lawsuit. A class action may well cost the State more than it allegedly saved.

Federal water quality standards are nowhere near as high as the State and an example of that is, if the Village of Union Springs were under federal standards, they would not have had to build a $250,000 stripper building. In fact if Union Springs were in Pennsylvania they would not have had to build it. The residents would just be drinking trichloretheleye without knowing it.

Under the Winter's doctrine tribes have a right to use as much water as they want to suit their needs. So if they build a casino or strip mall or golf course, they could diminish the water source or overwhelm the sewage plants with no recourse.

A friend has a cattle ranch in South Dakota with a neighboring tribal casino. The sewage from the casino forms a river across his property. That is shown in the video which accompanies Elaine Willman's book Going to Pieces.

The settlement rammed through by Prince Andrew was not even finalized when the counties were intimidated into voting on it. It was another one of those, you have to pass it to see what's in it and details will be worked out later.

So you might better present your question to the State. None of this was addressed in the settlement.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/13/14 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
IF, big IF, it becomes federal trust land the federal government owns the land and everything on it and in it. The State, any affected municipalities and utility companies will probably have to get new right of ways approved by the Secretary of the DOI through the BLM (Bureau of Land Management).

Act of March 3, 1901 (25 U.S.C. § 311) authorized the Secretary to grant rights-of-way to a State or local authority for the opening an establishment of public highways in accordance with State law through Indian reservations and allotted lands.

On other trust lands everything that was maintained continues to be maintained by those that had been doing so, generally along with agreements by the tribe and federal government. There may be municipalities that dissolve and counties that merge for the obvious reasons. You can't do something with nothing. There are a myriad of issues and questions which will likely result in the State getting more lawsuits filed against it than it just had dismissed. The State could use sovereign immunity to block them, but it cannot do so against a civil rights lawsuit. A class action may well cost the State more than it allegedly saved.

Federal water quality standards are nowhere near as high as the State and an example of that is, if the Village of Union Springs were under federal standards, they would not have had to build a $250,000 stripper building. In fact if Union Springs were in Pennsylvania they would not have had to build it. The residents would just be drinking trichloretheleye without knowing it.

Under the Winter's doctrine tribes have a right to use as much water as they want to suit their needs. So if they build a casino or strip mall or golf course, they could diminish the water source or overwhelm the sewage plants with no recourse.

A friend has a cattle ranch in South Dakota with a neighboring tribal casino. The sewage from the casino forms a river across his property. That is shown in the video which accompanies Elaine Willman's book Going to Pieces.

The settlement rammed through by Prince Andrew was not even finalized when the counties were intimidated into voting on it. It was another one of those, you have to pass it to see what's in it and details will be worked out later.

So you might better present your question to the State. None of this was addressed in the settlement.

Jeezuz Rich, That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/13/14 05:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo


Jeezuz Rich, That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
Nope. Just facts. Fear mongering is Prince Andrew’s forte`. Fear of the unknown is a great fear and there are a lot of unknowns in the settlement. As noted by Judge Kahn, the feds are not even part of the deal and it did not stop at least three of the lawsuits against the ROD.

But thank you for your opinion.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/13/14 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo


Jeezuz Rich, That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
Nope. Just facts. Fear mongering is Prince Andrew’s forte`. Fear of the unknown is a great fear and there are a lot of unknowns in the settlement. As noted by Judge Kahn, the feds are not even part of the deal and it did not stop at least three of the lawsuits against the ROD.

But thank you for your opinion.

You're welcome.

But, those are clearly NOT facts, they are purely hypotheticals... and are exceedingly far reaching ones, at that.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 04:28 AM

Quote:
That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).


The fear is not hypothetical; it is real. It is based on entirely understandable uncertainty and doubt, informed by precedent.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 08:53 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).


The fear is not hypothetical; it is real. It is based on entirely understandable uncertainty and doubt, informed by precedent.
Well said, VM Smith. Not everything in this world is 100% fact as Timbo likes to insist upon.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 03:16 PM

I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.
Use you time wisely Rich. You have a lot more important irons in the fire that arguing with a knucklehead or two on FL1.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

The fear is not hypothetical;it is real. It is based on entirely understandable uncertainty and doubt, informed by precedent.

And a lot of disinformation...

yet utterly unjustifiable as a foundation for establishing policy or law, unless of course, you believe that evidence should no longer be a prerequisite for establishing legal doctrine.

"I'm afraid of X (bogeyman of your choice). Make "X" illegal.

What a ridiculous argument. crazy
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.
Use you time wisely Rich. You have a lot more important irons in the fire that arguing with a knucklehead or two on FL1.

And the way the tide is turning, he's going to need every minute of it.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.
Use you time wisely Rich. You have a lot more important irons in the fire that arguing with a knucklehead or two on FL1.
And the way the tide is turning, he's going to need every minute of it.
LOL. I see no evidence of that. Can your provide a fact or two? grin
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/14/14 10:24 PM

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/01/21/10-17803.pdf
The whole 32 page ruling is on the URL link
[Note: in always trying to learn by example the history of the following case shows just how convoluted the BIA and FIP have been. It would make for an excellent TV series but only for showing the gross negligence and disregard for the bureaucracies own regulations. Sadly anyone else could end up in jail for violating CFR’s (Code of Federal Regulations) which are written by the bureaucracies themselves with no congressional oversight.

One minor example: several years ago I was in a conference with Attorney Penny Coleman, who was one of Senator McCain’s staff. She was patting herself on the back for a regulation she had rewritten and changed the wording from and to or. When we exposed the error of her ways she got all huffy, yelled that and and or mean the same thing and declared the meeting over.

Furthermore, this is about a settlement agreeing to allow a tribal casino on non-tribal lands, similar to the recent Prince Cuomo settlement.]

Reversing the district court’s summary judgment, the panel held that the State of California did not violate the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act by failing to negotiate in good faith for a tribal-state gaming compact with Big Lagoon Rancheria.

The panel held that a tribe must have jurisdiction over “Indian lands” in order to file suit to compel negotiations under IGRA. Specifically, the tribe must have jurisdiction over the Indian lands upon which the gaming activity is to be conducted.

[Note: well that would rule out the NY Oneida because their casino is on fee simple land under State sovereignty. Should that change the question becomes when did they purchase the land? After 1988 it would not qualify. ]

The panel held that although the State's objection to the "Indian lands" requirement could be waived because it was not a matter of subject matter jurisdiction, the State preserved this issue for review. The panel held that the parcel at issue was not Indian lands, which include lands held in trust for a tribe, because under Carcieri v. Salazar, 555 U.S. 379 (2009), the Bureau of Indian Affairs’ authority to take lands in trust for a tribe extends only to tribes under federal jurisdiction in 1934.

Because Big Lagoon was not such a tribe, the BIA lacked authority to purchase the parcel in trust for Big Lagoon in 1994. Accordingly, Big Lagoon could not demand negotiations to conduct gaming on the parcel, and it could not sue to compel negotiations if the State fails to negotiate in good faith.

Dissenting, Judge Rawlinson wrote that the parcel was Indian lands under IGRA because under Guidiville Band of Pomo Indians v. NGV Gaming, 531 F.3d 767 (9th Cir. 2008), the State could not collaterally attack the BIA’s designation of trust lands years after its administrative and legal remedies had expired.

OPINION
BLOCK, District Judge:

The State of California ("the State") has entered into an agreement allowing Big Lagoon Rancheria (“Big Lagoon”) to operate a casino on an eleven-acre parcel of land in Humboldt County, California. It did so, however, only because the district court ordered it to negotiate with Big Lagoon under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (“IGRA”), 25 U.S.C. §§ 2701–2721. The State appeals that order and, for the following reasons, we reverse.


A. Historical Background and Carcieri

Big Lagoon is situated on two parcels of land along the shore of the eponymous lagoon in Northern California. The eleven-acre parcel on which Big Lagoon proposes to operate a casino was acquired by the United States, acting through the Bureau of Indian Affairs (“BIA”), in 1994.

[Note: why the BIA bought this 11 acres and placed it into trust is anybody’s guess.]

However, to understand the background of the case, we must go further back in time to 1918, when the BIA purchased another parcel, a nine-acre tract adjacent to the eleven-acre parcel, as a homestead for James Charley and his family.

[Note: but within two years Charley died and his wife and kids left. ]

According to contemporaneous BIA records, the purchase was paid out of an appropriation “to purchase land for village homes for the landless Indians of California.” By 1921, Charley had died and his widow had moved, with their children, to Trinidad, California. Charley’s son Robert may have lived on the nine-acre parcel from 1942 to 1946, but the land was otherwise vacant for more than 30 years. In 1954 or thereabouts, Thomas Williams, Robert’s nephew by marriage, and his wife, Lila, received the BIA’s permission to camp on the land, but made no claim to ownership.

The 1950s ushered in a major change in Indian policy, from isolation to assimilation. As part of the change, the federal government moved to dissolve reservations and other tribal entities and distribute their lands to individual tribe members. The policy came to California with the enactment of the California Rancheria Termination Act, Pub. L. No. 85-671, 72 Stat. 619, in 1958.

The Act mandatorily dissolved some 43 rancherias, the term for small Indian settlements in California, although some were later restored. See TillieHardwick v. United States, No. 79-1710 (N.D. Cal. Stipulated judgment entered 1983). A 1964 amendment to the Act allowed any rancheria to request dissolution and distribution. See Pub. L. No. 88-419, 78 Stat. 390.

The Williamses apparently came to consider the nine-acre parcel a rancheria because they applied for dissolution and distribution in 1967. A 1968 BIA memorandum, by contrast, notes that the parcel "was not set aside for any specific tribe, band or group of Indians" when it was acquired in 1918. It further notes that the occupants "have not formally organized" and did not have "allotments or formal assignments." The BIA in 1968 nevertheless approved distribution to the Williamses and their daughter and son-in-law—who were also living on the land.

[Note: are you following this? The land was NEVER designated Indian Land because it was never assigned to any tribe and those that had resided on it never organized as a tribe.]

The proposed distribution never took place because, for reasons unknown, the Williamses withdrew their request. But the 1968 distribution list forms the basis for membership in Big Lagoon as it exists today. The tribe first appeared on a 1979 list of "Indian Tribal Entities That Have a Government-to-government Relationship with the United States." 44 Fed. Reg. 7325 (Feb. 6, 1979). It has consistently appeared on similar lists since. See, e.g., 78 Fed. Reg. 26384-02 (May 6, 2013) ("Indian Entities Recognized and Eligible to Receive Services From the United States Bureau of Indian Affairs").

[Note: I find it strange how tribes mysteriously appear on federal recognition lists and how even the Iroquois tribes never appeared on such list until about 1980 and why such recognition list had a note attached to it to keep this hidden and filed in an erroneous file on the west coast in the National Archives in California. Not all of the requirement to be recognized as a tribe could be met by all of the Iroquois tribes. I suspect the Big Lagoon may be in a similar situation. But that is a side issue.]

[Note: so the distribution that never took place, even though the BIA approved it, on land that was never assigned to a tribe is the basis for membership in the Big Lagoon tribe. But this gets better. ]

Its roughly two dozen members trace their ancestry, not to Charley, but to his son's wife’s nephew.

[Note: I assume that Charley had Indian ancestry which would follow that his son would have Indian ancestry which may be diminished but it wasn't even his son's kids that formed a tribe, but his son's wife's nephew. They may or may not have Indian ancestry but there is no blood connection here, let alone any tribe or tribal history. Is that like saying only your hairdresser knows for sure? ]

As noted, the BIA purchased the eleven-acre parcel in 1994. It took the land "in Trust for Big Lagoon Rancheria, a Federally Recognized Indian Rancheria" pursuant to 25 U.S.C. § 2202. That statute, in turn, is based on 25 U.S.C. § 465, which authorizes the BIA to acquire land "for the purpose of providing lands to Indians." Title is "taken in the name of the United States in trust for the Indian tribe or individual Indian for which the land is acquired." Id. Section 465 was enacted as part of the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 ("IRA”), ch. 576, 48 Stat. 985. Another section of the IRA defines "Indian" as including all persons of Indian descent who are members of any recognized Indian tribe now under Federal jurisdiction, and all persons who are descendants of such members who were, on June 1, 1934, residing within the present boundaries of any Indian reservation, and . . . all other persons of one-half or more Indian blood. Id. § 19, 48 Stat. 988 (codified at 25 U.S.C. § 479).

[Note: So the BIA who knew it was not and stated in writing it was not a Rancheria placed land into trust which did not qualify to have land placed into trust for a tribe that was magically created out of thin air who wanted their own casino. But it has done this for years and now several tribes fall under the Carcieri clarification of what the law really meant that the BIA had been violating. ]

In Carcieri v. Salazar, 555 U.S. 379 (2009), the Supreme Court held that the phrase "now under Federal jurisdiction" "unambiguously refers to those tribes that were under the federal jurisdiction of the United States when the IRA was enacted in 1934." Id. at 395. Thus, under Carcieri, the BIA lacks authority to acquire land in trust for tribes that were not under federal jurisdiction in 1934. See id. at 388 ("[T]he Secretary's authority to take the parcel in question into trust depends on whether the Narragansetts are members of a 'recognized Indian Tribe now under Federal jurisdiction.'").

Indian Gaming and IGRA

Beginning in the 1970s, the State and several Indian tribes came into conflict over the operation of bingo halls on Indian lands. The conflict culminated in California v. Cabazon Band of Mission Indians, 480 U.S. 202 (1987), in which the Supreme Court held that state regulation of gaming on Indian lands "would impermissibly infringe on tribal government." Id. at 222.

Congress responded by enacting IGRA, which assigns authority to regulate gaming to tribal and state governments according to the class of gaming involved. “Class III” gaming—which includes the casino-type gambling at issue here—is allowed on Indian lands only if "conducted in conformance with a Tribal-State compact entered into by the Indian tribe and the State." 25 U.S.C. § 2710(d)(1)(C). Such compacts are the result of negotiations requested by the “Indian tribe having jurisdiction over the Indian lands upon
which a class III gaming activity is being conducted, or is to be conducted." Id. § 2710(d)(3)(A). "Upon receiving such a request, the State shall negotiate with the Indian tribe in good faith to enter into such a compact." Id. 2 The Court rejected the argument that § 2202, cited above, is an independent grant of authority to acquire land: "Rather, § 2202 by its terms simply ensures that tribes may benefit from § 465 even if they opted out of the IRA pursuant to § 478, which allowed tribal members to reject the application of the IRA to their tribe." Carcieri, 555 U.S. at 394.

If negotiations are successful, the resulting compact goes to the BIA for approval. See id. § 2710(d)(3)(B). If not, the tribe may sue in the district court. See id. § 2710(d)(7)(A)(i). If the district court concludes that the State has failed to negotiate in good faith, it must order the parties to reach an agreement. See id. § 2710(d)(7)(B)(iii). If no agreement is reached after 60 days, the court orders each party to submit a proposed compact to a court-appointed mediator, who selects "the one which best comports with the terms of [IGRA] and any other applicable Federal law and with the findings and order of the court." Id. § 2710(d)(7)(B)(iv). If the State is unwilling to accept the mediator's selection, the matter is referred to the BIA, which must then develop procedures “under which class III gaming may be conducted on the Indian lands over which the Indian tribe has jurisdiction.” Id. § 2710(d)(7)(B)(vii)(II).

A unifying thread running through the statutory provisions relating to class III gaming is the concept of “Indian lands.” Such lands are where the gaming activities are to take place and it is the tribe "having jurisdiction" over those lands that requests negotiations and, if necessary, institutes legal action. IGRA defines “Indian lands” as

(A) all lands within the limits of any Indian reservation; and

(B) any lands title to which is . . . held in trust by the United States for the benefit of any Indian tribe or individual . . . and over which an Indian tribe exercises governmental power. Id. § 2703(4).

C. Negotiation History

In 1998 and 1999, the State proposed a model compact to tribes seeking to offer class III gaming on their lands, including Big Lagoon. Most tribes accepted the State’s model compact; Big Lagoon did not. Instead, it filed suit in the district court, alleging that the State had failed to negotiate in good faith under IGRA.

As the litigation proceeded, the State and Big Lagoon continued to negotiate in an effort to reach a mutually acceptable agreement. Those negotiations bore fruit in 2005, when the parties agreed that Big Lagoon, along with another group, would be allowed to operate a casino on non-Indian lands in Barstow. As part of the settlement, the lawsuit was dismissed without prejudice.

The settlement proved illusory, however, because the California Legislature did not ratify the agreement, as required by state law. The so-called Barstow Compact lapsed
by its own terms in September 2007.

On September 18, 2007, Big Lagoon sent the State a written request for new negotiations "for the purpose of entering into a Tribal-State compact governing the conduct of Class III gaming activities on the trust lands that constitute the Big Lagoon Rancheria." A principal point of contention that arose during the resultant negotiations concerned the site of the casino. The State was reluctant.

On January 21, the 9th Circuit said the tribe can't pursue a casino on its trust land because it wasn't "under federal jurisdiction" in 1934.

[Note: neither was the NY Oneida.]

Tribes claim the decision threatens their rights, but the reality is they never had those rights.

There is no guarantee that the 9th Circuit will rehear the case. But even if it does, the losing side will likely appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, putting land-into-trust back before the justices only a few years after their decision in Carcieri v. Salazar.

Tribes have been lobbying Congress to rewrite legislation passed in 1934 since it was explained in 2009 that the word now means now.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/16/14 05:05 PM

LOL...yet another "utterly", and one more of your trademark " crazy " insults. You must have swapped "ABSOLUTELY" and "CERTAINLY" for them. You still seldom know what you're talking about, though, even as you preach and squawk, louder and more abrasively, and try to convince people that you do. Have at it, Reverend; you're good for comic relief, if nothing else.

Meanwhile, back in reality, another reasonable, factual, informative post from Rich.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/17/14 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
LOL...yet another "utterly", and one more of your trademark " crazy " insults. You must have swapped "ABSOLUTELY" and "CERTAINLY" for them. You still seldom know what you're talking about, though, even as you preach and squawk, louder and more abrasively, and try to convince people that you do. Have at it, Reverend; you're good for comic relief, if nothing else.

Meanwhile, back in reality, another reasonable, factual, informative post from Rich.

Yes, utterly.

As in "this is utterly ridiculous": completely, totally, absolutely, entirely, wholly, fully, thoroughly, quite, altogether, one hundred percent, downright, outright, in all respects, unconditionally, perfectly, really, to the hilt, to the core; dead.

That idiotic argument eschews facts as the underlying basis.

I can think of no better description. But hey, since you're so "talented" at inventing your own words and definitions, have at it. grin LOL!
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/18/14 04:01 PM

Have you ever considered getting psychiatric help?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/18/14 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Have you ever considered getting psychiatric help?

Not if your psychiatrist is the current state of the art in mental health treatment.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/20/14 07:48 PM

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/03/19/henrietta-town-board-vote-casino/6600429/
Henrietta says 'no' to casino

Previously: Senecas buy 32 acres in Henrietta for possible casino

Q&A: The proposed casino in Henrietta

Board member Ken Breese added: "The input was pretty clear. This community doesn't want it."

Phil Pantano, spokesman for the Seneca Gaming Corp., gave no indication after the vote whether the Senecas would continue to seek Henrietta as a site for the casino. "Time will tell," he said.

The Gaming Corp, which represents the Seneca Nation of Indians in gambling matters, issued a statement after the vote saying that a new Seneca casino could bring $200 million in private capital investment and more than 1,000 construction jobs and 2,000 permanent jobs.

Criticizing the board for acting "prematurely," the statement said that the "first step in developing a project is to engage the community" and "to discuss the projects benefits with the Henrietta community."

The Senecas declined to appear before the Town Board Wednesday, with Kevin W. Seneca, chairman of the Gaming Corp, saying that "under the circumstances, we feel there is little benefit to make the presentation at this point."

Wednesday's vote came after recent Town Board meetings have been packed with opponents of the casino and after the Gaming Corp., on March 3, purchased 32 acres of vacant land for $2.75 million on Clay Road for a casino development site in Henrietta.

Henrietta Town Supervisor Jack Moore said the invitation is open for the Senecas to make a presentation at a future date. Both Moore and Henrietta Town Attorney Daniel Mastrella said the town's vote can't stop the casino.

"All we can do is advise," said Moore. "The reason that we are going to do this resolution tonight is to say that we don't want gaming here in Henrietta."

The Town Board's resolution would be considered in a complicated approval process for a casino that involves state and federal officials.

Elected officials as well as the Secretary of the Interior are supposed to be notified of the town's opposition.

The resolution sites "concerns about the negative impacts" that a casino would have on "the quality of life in Henrietta," as well as the long-term economic effect.

Some of these concerns were noted by the speakers in the public comment session before Wednesday's vote.

"This is not a harmless activity," said Henrietta resident Robert Goldstein, a psychologist who had directed a unit at Strong Memorial Hospital that treated addictive behavior.

Goldstein objected to the term "gaming," adding: "We're talking about gambling."

Henrietta resident Goody Freed was one of four residents who spoke in favor of the casino. "It will only bring jobs," Freed said.

He also questioned whether the casino would be disruptive to the community.
"We're not talking about a stadium. People trickle in. People trickle out," Freed said.

But other speakers questioned the value of having a casino in Henrietta. "How is Henrietta going to benefit?" asked town resident David Christensen.
JGOODMAN@DemocratandChronicle.com
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 12:23 AM

Ahh...an intelligent post. Thanks, Rich!
Posted by: Boudicca

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 12:47 AM

Yes~Thank you Mr. T. I don't know what any of us could possibly say to thank you enough...sometimes I think that you carry all of the sorrow that we feel in our hearts, on your mind. Every informative post that you've brought to this thread DOES NOT go unappreciated:)You are admired by many for your dedication to inform us on these complicated and complex issues.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 01:39 AM

Many notes and refs:

http://perc.org/articles/conservation-native-american-style-full

Author:
Terry Anderson
Jane S. Shaw
Series Editor

"To claim that Indians lived without affecting nature
is akin to saying that they lived without touching anything,
that they were a people without history."

--Louis S. Warren

Introduction

Over the past three decades, the environmental movement has promoted a view of American Indians as the "original conservationists"--that is, "people so intimately bound to the land that they have left no mark upon it" (White and Cronon 1988, 417). References to this image abound:

"The Indians were, in truth, the pioneer ecologists of this country," said Secretary of the Interior Stewart Udall.(1)
"I think most people in Indian country hold a set of ideals we should all learn from," said law professor Charles Wilkinson in a recent speech.(2) According to Wilkinson, these ideals teach human harmony with the natural environment.
Calling for an environmental ethic patterned after that of Native Americans, Senator John H. Chafee recently quoted words allegedly spoken by Chief Seattle: "Man did not weave the web of life. He is merely a strand of it."
"For many thousands of years, most of the indigenous nations on this continent practiced a philosophy of protection (first) and use (second) of the forest," says Herb Hammond in the Sierra Club book Clearcut. "In scientific terms, we recognize that their use of the forest was ecologically responsible--meaning that it kept all the parts."(3)
Appealing as this image of a Native American environmental ethic is, it is not accurate. The spiritual connection attributed to Native Americans frequently does not mesh with the history of Indian resource use. By focusing on this myth instead of reality, environmentalists patronize American Indians, disparaging their rich institutional heritage which encouraged resource conservation. By missing this history of Indian institutions, the environmentalists' interpretation deprives Indians and non-Indians alike of a full understanding of how we can conserve our natural heritage.

The purpose of this paper is twofold. First, it will put to rest the myth of a unique and romantic American Indian environmental ethic. Second, it will illustrate how American Indians used complex and evolving institutions to conserve scarce natural resources and to survive in a sometimes hostile environment. By institutions, I mean the traditions, rules, laws and habits that guided Indian societies. Though the actual laws and customs vary among societies, all societies have such institutions to guide them.

A Vision Imposed on Chief Seattle

The impression that American Indians were guided by a unique environmental ethic often can be traced to words widely attributed to Chief Seattle. "All things are connected like the blood which unites one family," Senator Chafee quotes him as saying. "Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of earth."

Yet the words in the oft-quoted speech are not actually those of Chief Seattle. They were written by Ted Perry, a scriptwriter. In a movie about pollution, he paraphrased a translation of the speech that had been made by William Arrowsmith (a professor of classics). Perry's version added "a good deal more, particularly modern ecological imagery," according to one historian who has researched the subject (Wilson 1992, 1457). Perry, not Chief Seattle, wrote that "every part of the Earth is sacred to my people." (Perry, by the way, has tried unsuccessfully to get the truth out.)

The speech reflects what many environmentalists want to hear, not what Chief Seattle said. The romantic image evoked by the speech obscures the fact, fully acknowledged by historians, that American Indians transformed the North American landscape. Sometimes these changes were beneficial, at other times harmful. But they were a rational response to abundance or scarcity in the context of institutions that governed resource use. Like Europeans and all people everywhere, American Indians responded to incentives.

For example, where land was abundant, it made sense to farm extensively and move on.

It was common for Indians such as the Choctaw, Iroquois, and Pawnee to clear land for farming by cutting and burning forests. Once cleared, fields were farmed extensively until soil fertility was depleted; then they cleared new lands and started the process again (see White and Cronon 1988, 419-21).
From New England to the Southwest, wherever Indian populations were dense and farming was intense, deforestation was common. Indeed, the mysterious departure of the Anasazi from the canyons of southeastern Utah in the thirteenth century may have been due to depletion of wood supplies used for fuel (see Ambler 1989).
Similarly, where game was plentiful, Indians used only the choicest cuts and left the rest.

When buffalo were herded over cliffs, tons of meat were left to rot or to be eaten by scavengers (see Baden, Stroup, and Thurman 1981).
Samuel Hearne, a fur trader near Hudson's Bay, recorded in his journal in the 1770s that the Chipewayan Indians would slaughter large numbers of caribou and muskox, eat only a few tongues, and leave the rest to rot.
Indians also manipulated the land to improve hunting.

Upland wooded areas from east to west were burned to remove the undergrowth and increase forage for deer, elk, and bison. Indeed, because of this burning, there may have been fewer "old growth" forests in the Pacific Northwest when the first Europeans arrived than there are today.
In some cases, however, the improvements sought by burning were short term because these human-caused fires altered the succession of forests. In the Southeast, for example, oak and hickory forests with a higher carrying capacity for deer were displaced by fire-resistant longleaf pine which supported only limited wildlife.
Generally, the demand for meat, hides, and furs by relatively small, dispersed populations of Indians put little pressure on wildlife. But, in some cases game depletion resulted from what is known as the "tragedy of the commons." This term, coined by biologist Garrett Hardin, describes what happens when no one has ownership of a resource and anyone has access to it.

Wild animals represented a "commons." They belonged to no one until they were killed. If anyone left an animal, in the hope that it would be there later, someone else was likely to kill it. Without ownership, no one had an incentive to protect the animals. Thus, they were overhunted, and wildlife populations fell.

Anthropologist Paul Martin (1968 and 1984) believes that the extinction of the mammoth, mastodon, ground sloth, and the saber-toothed cat were directly or indirectly due to "prehistoric overkill" by exceptionally competent hunters.
With the advent of the Europeans, who wanted furs, Indians were able to trap furs and trade them for European goods such as beads, cloth, knifes, and firearms. Where there were no institutions that limited entry into the common trapping grounds, fur-bearing populations were decimated (see Carlos and Lewis 1995).
Louis S. Warren drives the final nail in the coffin of the "living in harmony with nature" myth:

"to claim that Indians lived without affecting nature is akin to
saying that they lived without touching anything, that they were
a people without history. Indians often manipulated their local
environments, and while they usually had far less impact on their
environments than European colonists would, the idea of
"preserving" land in some kind of wilderness state would have
struck them as impractical and absurd. More often than not,
Indians profoundly shaped the ecosystems around them. . . ."
(Warren 1996, 19)
Getting the Incentives Right

While there were exceptions that led to the "tragedy of the commons," generally American Indians understood the importance of getting the incentives right. Personal ethics and spiritual values were important, as they are in any society, but those ethics and values worked along with private and communal property rights. These rights strictly defined who could use resources and rewarded good stewardship.

It is sometimes difficult to fit the pre-Columbian Indian institutions into the modern context of law, government, and property rights. For example, the term nation is applied to Indian tribes as if the tribes were organized into formal governing structures for the entire group of Indians similar to governments that manage modern nation states. But most Indian tribes were made up of relatively independent groups with little centralized control except at specific times, when the bands might gather for such events as ceremonies or hunts. Similarly, since Indians seldom had a written language, rules could not be codified into formal laws.

The lack of familiar modern institutions, however, by no means implies that Indians lacked rules, customary or formal. American Indian tribes were able to produce and sustain abundant wealth because they had institutions that made clear who had rights to land, fishing and hunting territories, and personal property. Pre- and post-Columbian Indian history is replete with examples of how property rights conditioned the human interface with the natural environment. Consider the following:

Land and Water Rights: Some Communal, Some Private

Indian land tenure systems varied considerably, "ranging from completely or almost completely communal systems to systems hardly less individualistic than our own with its core of fee simple tenure" (Copper 1949, 1). The degree of private ownership reflected the scarcity of land and the difficulty or ease of defining and enforcing rights. Julian H. Steward (1938, 253) concludes that "Truly communal property was scant" among American Indians.

Because agricultural land required investments and because boundaries could be easily marked, agricultural land was often privately owned. However, unlike most private land ownership today, Indian property was usually held by families or clans rather than individuals.

For example, families among the Mahican Indians in the Northeast possessed hereditary rights to use well-defined tracts of garden land along the rivers. Europeans recognized this ownership, and deeds of white settlers indicate that they often approached lineage leaders to purchase this land. Prior to European contact, other Indian tribes recognized Mahican ownership of these lands by not trespassing (Brasser 1974, 14). Away from the rivers, however, where the value of land for crops was low, it was not worth establishing ownership. As one historian put it, "no one would consider laying out a garden in the rocky hinterlands" (Brasser 1974, 7).

In the Southeast where Indians engaged in settled agriculture, private ownership of land was common. "The Creek town is typical of the economic and social life of the populous tribes of the Southeast," writes historian Angie Debo.

"Each family gathered the produce of its own plot and placed it
in its own storehouse. Each also contributed voluntarily to a
public store which was kept in a large building in the field and
was used under the direction of the town chief for public needs."
(Debo 1970, 13-14)
Private garden plots were common in the East, as were large community fields with plots assigned to individual families. Because there were economies of scale in planting and cultivation, these tasks were done communally under the direction of a chief, but harvesting on each plot was done by the owning family, with the bounty stored in the family's own storehouse.

The Omaha tribe in what is now Nebraska cultivated private garden patches along streams. Plots were allocated on the basis of occupancy, and "as long as a tract was cultivated by a family no one molested the crops or intruded on the ground" (Fletcher and La Flesche 1992, 1:269). When the Omaha obtained the horse, as did other Plains Indians, they became more nomadic, abandoning most crop cultivation. However, their tradition of private garden plots carried over into the reservation era when the tribe again allotted land to families and clans.

The Havasupai in the Southwest also considered ownership of farmland private as long as it was in use, and the Hopi Indians assigned to the various matrilineal clans of the village exclusive rights to the fields. "[E]ach clan allotment was marked by boundary stones, set up at the corners of the fields, with symbols of the clans painted on them" (Kennard 1979, 554), wrote one anthropologist. Another notes that clan lands were marked "by numerous boundary stones . . . placed at the corners and junctions points" and "engraved on their faces with symbols of the appropriate clan" (Forde 1931, 367). The clan allotments were usually assigned to the women and became associated with a specific household through inheritance. To spread the risk associated with lack of rain or sudden flooding, each clan generally had plots in more than one location.(4)

"Dispersal of the lands of each clan over a number of sites is of
very great practical importance since it reduces the risk of crop
failure; where one group of fields may be washed out there
remains the chance that the others may be spared."
(Forde 1931, 369)
The Hopi and Zuni branches of the Pueblo Indians living in the Upper Colorado Basin also developed property rights reflecting their environment and production techniques. The Hopi made use of periodic flooding of their lands during the summer months by building small stone walls to check the water flow, increasing soil moisture but preventing flooding of crops. Because flood control and irrigation systems required extensive capital investment and provided economies of scale, construction was communal. Where water flowed constantly from springs on family-owned land and required little or no investment, water rights were privately owned. Florence Ellis (1979, 355) writes:

"Technically the irrigated farmlands belonged to the Pueblo as
a whole. Through assignment by the Isleta governor, an
individual usually obtained a single acre of land [and the
necessary water rights], but if the governor or his captains
found that the assignee left the land within a year or did not
farm it, the plot and accompanying water rights were returned
to Pueblo possession and reassigned."
Fruit and nut trees, which required long-term investment and care, were privately owned and usually inherited.(5) "So important were the pi¤on resources that groves of trees were considered family property in several locations" within the Great Basin area of the West, says a historian (Fowler 1986, 65). In one case a Northern Paiute reflected that his father "paid a horse for a certain pinon-nut range" (Steward 1941, 440), suggesting that the property rights were valuable and tradable.

Among Indians in California, families owned pi¤on, mesquite, screw-bean trees, and a few wild-seed patches, with ownership "being marked off by lines of rocks" (Lowie 1940, 303). Though permission to gather food was sometimes given during times of abundance, trespass was not tolerated, "the owner rebuking him [the trespasser] with such words as, Don't pick pine nuts here! They are not yours, but mine'" (Lowie 1940, 303). John Muir reports that the owner of a pi¤on tree killed a white man for felling his tree (reported in Steward 1934, 305).(6)

Hunting: Avoiding the "Tragedy of the Commons"

Where Indians depended on hunting and fishing, it was imperative that they controlled access to general hunting territories and to specific harvest sites. Without that control, the hunting grounds would be a commons that would lead to overhunting. The customary rights that governed hunting, trapping, and fishing "were often expressed in terms of religion and spirituality rather than of science as we understand it today," writes Peter Usher. "Nonetheless, the rules conserved the resource base and harmony within the band" (Usher 1992, 50). Territorial hunting rights in the north arose through use and occupancy. Often outsiders were allowed to use an area for a short period of time.

Hunting groups among the Montagnais-Naskapi of Quebec between Hudson Bay and the Gulf of St. Lawrence recognized family and clan hunting areas, particularly for beaver when it became an important trade item (Rogers and Taylor 1981, 181). Similar hunting groups and rules existed in other regions.

Quoting Indian informants, anthropologists Frank G. Speck and Wendell S. Hadlock (1946, 362) report that for Indians in New Brunswick,

"It was . . . an established "rule that when a hunter worked a
territory no other would knowingly or willfully encroach upon
the region for several generations." Some of the men held
districts which had been hunted by their fathers, and presum-
ably their grandfathers."
They even had a colloquial term that translates to "my hunting ground."

Frank Speck says that the Algonkian Indians from the Atlantic to the Great Lakes

"carried on their hunting in restricted, family hunting territories
descending from generation to generation in the male line. It
was in these family tracts that the supply of game animals was
maintained by deliberate systems of rotation in hunting and
gathering, and defended by the family groups as a heritage from
some remote time when the country had been given to their
ancestors by the Creator." (Speck 1939, 258-59)
This ownership, says Speck (1939, 259), led to

"the maintenance of a supply of animal and vegetable life,
methods of insuring its propagation to provide sources of life
for posterity, the permanent family residence within well-known
and oftentimes blazed property boundaries, and resentment
against trespass by the family groups surrounding them who
possessed districts of their own."
Indian tribes of western North America defended their hunting, fishing, and gathering territories against trespass (see Steward 1938, 254). Steward reports that among Paiute Indians of the Owens Valley in California, "communal groups stayed within their district territory," (Steward 1934, 252) which was bounded by natural features such as mountains, ridges, and streams. Each distinct Apache band, says Keith H. Basso (1970, 5),

"had its own hunting grounds and, except when pressed by
starvation, was reluctant to encroach upon those of a nei-
ghbor. . . . Each local group had exclusive rights to certain farm
sites and hunting localities, and each was headed by a chief who
directed collective enterprises. . . . "
Customs and norms regulated the harvest. There was a district head man who determined where and when to hunt based on his knowledge from the past.

Fishing: Well-Defined Rights

In the Pacific Northwest Indians had well-defined fishing rights.(7) To capture salmon returning from the ocean to spawn in freshwater streams, Indians placed fish wheels, weirs, and other fixed appliances at falls or shoals where the fish were naturally channeled (Netboy 1958, 11).

Their technology was so efficient that they could have depleted salmon stocks, but they realized the importance of allowing some of the spawning fish to escape upstream. Robert Higgs (1982, 59) quotes a Quileute Indian born about 1852:

"When the Indians had obtained enough fish they would remove
the weirs from the river in order that the fish they did not need
could go upstream and lay their eggs so that there would be a
supply of fish for future years."
In an important case regarding Indian fishing rights in the Northwest, Judge George Boldt noted that "individual Indians had primary use rights in the territory where they resided and permissive use rights in the natal territory (if this was different) or in territories where they had consanguineal kin."(8) In many cases the fishing sites were inherited by sons from their fathers (Higgs 1982, 59).

Relying on salmon as their main source of food, the coastal Tlingit and Haida Indians established clear rights to fishing locations where salmon congregated on their journey to spawning beds. Access to these locations was limited to the clan or house group. In addition to property rights to the salmon streams, these Indians had rights to "bear- and goat-hunting areas, berry and root patches, hot springs, sea otter grounds, seal and seal lion rocks, shellfish beds, cedar stands and trade routes" (Langdon 1989, 306).

The management units could exclude other clans or houses from their fishing territories. When territories were infringed upon, the trespasser was required to indemnify the owning group or potentially face violent consequences (see Oberg 1973 and De Laguna 1972).(9) Management decisions were generally made by the yitsati, the "keeper of the house," who had the power to make and enforce decisions regarding harvest levels, escapement, fishing seasons, and harvest methods. This eldest clan male possessed superior knowledge about salmon runs, escapement, and fishing technology and therefore was in the best position to be the "custodian or trustee of the hunting and fishing territories" (De Laguna 1972, 464). Though there is debate over just how powerful the yitsati was (see Olson 1967), it is clear that salmon runs were sustained over long periods by rules made locally.

Unfortunately, the white man's law usurped these secure Indian fishing rights and replaced them with a system that encourages the tragedy of the commons. It was "economically inferior to the property system originally established by the tribes," one scholar concludes (Barsh 1977, 23).

Personal Items: Private

Though ownership of land and natural resources varied considerably, personal items were nearly always privately owned. Clothes, weapons, utensils, and housing were often owned by women, for whom they provided a way to accumulate personal wealth. For the Plains Indians, the teepee offers an example. Women collected enough hides (usually between 8 and 20), tanned and scraped them, and prepared a great feast where the hides were sewn together by the participants.

The effort required to produce items of personal use provided an incentive to ensure that they became private property. Weeks or months could be spent collecting buffalo hides for tepees. Time was spent chipping arrow heads, constructing bows and arrows, and weaving baskets. One historian illustrates the point:

"Water, seed, and hunting areas, minerals and salt deposits, etc.,
were freely utilized by anyone. But once work had been done
upon the products of natural resources (mixed labor with them)
they became the property of the person or family doing the
work. Willow groves could be used by anyone, but baskets
made of willows belonged to their makers. Wild seeds could be
gathered by anyone, but once harvested, they belonged strictly
to the family doing the task. . . ." (Steward 1934, 253)
In other cases, the raw materials themselves were scarce, and these, too, were private property. Stone from which arrowheads were chipped was personal property obtained through long-distance trade. Special wood for bows was traded; for this to happen the wood had to be privately owned. In short, property rights reflected the degree of scarcity of the good.

Consider trader Charles Larpenteur's description, written in 1860, of a wealthy Blackfoot man: "It is a fine sight to see one of those big men among the Blackfeet, who has two or three lodges, five or six wives, twenty or thirty children, and fifty to a hundred horses; for his trade amounts to upward of $2,000 a year" (1898, 401). Converting this amount to 1990 dollars, such a man had an annual income of approximately $500,000!

Perhaps the best example of private ownership was the horse, which was acquired by Plains Indians in the latter half of the eighteenth century. The horse revolutionized transportation and hunting. A good horse could be ridden into a stampeding buffalo herd so that arrows could be shot at close range. By following the buffalo, the Plains Indians could live a life of abundance.

The horse became one of the Indian's most important sources of wealth. "A buffalo runner of known ability was worth several common riding horses or pack animals" (Ewers 1958, 78). In Canada in the early 1800s, a buffalo horse could not be purchased with ten guns--a price far greater than any other tribal possession (Barsness 1985, 61).

Given their value, horses were well-cared for and closely guarded. "No system of branding was used, but each person knew the individualities of his horses so that he could recognize them," writes Clark Wissler (1910, 97). Apparently disputes over ownership were few, but if a horse was stolen, the offense was punishable by death. Perhaps more than any other asset, the horse reflects the extent to which Indian culture utilized the institution of private ownership.

Additional Positive Incentives

The above discussion makes clear that property rights were an integral part of Indian culture and that they encouraged resource conservation. But even where activities were communal, positive incentives, including incentives quite similar to ownership, made success possible.

Rabbit hunts among Indians of the Great Basin were conducted communally. These hunts required leadership skills, nets for catching the rabbits, and motivation to succeed. The nets into which the rabbits were driven were privately owned and maintained (Freed 1960, 351). To provide a positive incentive for the communal hunt, the leader of the hunt or the owners of the nets received a bigger portion of the catch (Fowler 1986, 82).

On a buffalo hunt, the successful hunter was "entitled to keep the skin and some choice portion of the meat for his family" (Steward 1938, 253). An elaborate nomenclature was used by the Omaha to describe rewards for those who killed and butchered buffalo. "To the man who killed the animal belonged the hide and one portion of tezhu [side of meat] and the brains." Other portions were as follows: "To the first helper to arrive, one of the tezhu and a hind-quarter; to the second comer, the ugaxetha [includes the stomach, beef tallow, and intestines]; to the third, the ribs [tethi ti]" (Fletcher and La Flesche 1992, 1:273).

The hunters marked their arrows distinctively, so after the hunt, the arrows in the dead buffalo indicated which hunters had been successful (Ewers 1969, 160). Disputes over whose arrow killed the buffalo were settled by the hunt leader. Poorer families followed the hunt and depended on the charity of the hunters for meat (Ewers 1969, 162).

It took strong, well-disciplined horses to run into a stampeding herd and keep up with the buffalo. Four or five buffalo cows might be killed "on a single chase by the best Blackfoot marksman with the best horse under him. Most hunters rarely killed more than one or two buffalo at a chase. Men with inferior buffalo horses had to be satisfied with killing the slower running bulls" (Ewers 1969, 159).

If an owner decided to loan his horse for a chase, payment was expected. Three Calf described to John Ewers (1969, 161) the arrangement his father made when loaning his horse. "There was no agreement in advance for any payment to be made to my father. If the man was selfish and offered my father no meat, the next time he wished to borrow horse, father told him, No.'" The chase was dangerous and a loaned horse might be injured. Generally, the responsible borrower who had taken reasonable precautions to prevent injury did not have to pay damages, but the irresponsible borrower was forced to replace the lost horse.

In sum, faced with the reality of scarcity, Indians understood the importance of incentives and built their societies around institutions that encouraged good human and natural resource stewardship. In particular, clearly specified property rights helped encourage conservation of scarce resources. Ethics and spiritual values may have inculcated a respect for nature, but an elaborate set of social institutions that today would be considered private property rights punished irresponsible behavior and rewarded stewardship. As Louis Warren (1996, 22) puts it,

"Among other things, Indian history is a tale of constant innova-
tion and change. . . . If there is a single, characteristic Indian
experience of the environment, perhaps it is the ability to change
lifeways in radical fashion to maintain culture and identity."
Wildlife Management Lessons Lost and Lessons Learned

Today, there are abundant natural resources throughout Indian country. These resources would be better managed if tribes would return to their rich heritage of positive rewards for good stewardship instead of relying on romantic and sometimes mythical world-views promoted by non-Indian environmentalists.

Wildlife management on Indian reservations offers a distinct contrast between lessons lost and lessons learned from the history of Indian culture and institutions. In many respects, Indians on reservations have tremendous assets. They have asserted sovereign claims to fish and wildlife, both on and off reservations. Relying on treaties signed in the nineteenth century, courts have granted Indians rights to large resources. Indians have rights to half the harvestable salmon and steelhead in the Pacific Northwest. They may use gillnets not available to non-Indian fishers in the Great Lakes. They may hunt walruses and polar bears without regulation by the state of Alaska. In Wisconsin, they have special hunting privileges on public lands, including an 85-day deer season, and permission to hunt from vehicles.

Unfortunately, wildlife managers on most reservations have lost sight of the value of institutions like those described earlier in this paper. After asserting their claims, they have often created a wildlife "commons," and the consequences have been devastating. Case after case illustrates the decimation of wildlife populations (see Williams 1986, 59-64).

Indian gillnetting for salmon on the West Coast has wiped out major runs of salmon on the Klamath/Trinity river system.
Waste is pervasive. The Alaska Fish and Game Department documented one case of 214 caribou carcasses left to rot and "counted 24 caribou left whole--there was a snow machine track to each one. . . . Most had been there a considerable time" (quoted in Williams 1986, 73).
On most western reservations, big game species are often almost nonexistent. On the Crow Reservation in Montana, for example, there are very few big game animals such as deer and elk, despite the fact that the reservation has excellent habitat. According to a tribal wildlife official, non-Indians are not allowed to hunt on the reservation, but tribal members can hunt year around without limits. The few big game animals that may be found wander in from outside; they are not managed on a sustainable basis.
One writer describes what can happen when wildlife belongs to everyone:

"Over the past 25 years Shoshones and Arapahos, equipped
with snowmobiles, AFV's and high-powered rifles, have
virtually wiped out elk, deer, moose and bighorns on the 2.2
million-acre Wind River Reservation in Wyoming. Repeated
motions for modest self-regulation emanating from within
the reservation have been defeated by vote of the tribal
leaders. . . . in one confined area 31 dead elk were found.
In another, a retired Indian game warden mowed down an
entire herd of 14. Meat piled up at local dumps. Antlers
were exported to the Orient where antlers and horns are
ground to a powder and hawked as an aphrodisiac." (Wil-
liams 1986, 63)
Lessons Learned: The White Mountain Apache

Fortunately, one wildlife success story in Indian country illustrates the power of incentives. This is the story of the White Mountain Apache of east-central Arizona. The members of this tribe are managing their trophy elk population and other wildlife opportunities on a sustainable basis--and making a profit.(10)

The Fort Apache Reservation covers 1.6 million acres with a diversity of habitat from oak chaparral at lower elevations to mixed coniferous forests at higher elevations. This habitat supports about 12,000 free-ranging elk.

To get some idea of the success elk hunters enjoy, consider the reservation's track record. From 1977 to 1995, nontribal hunters have taken ninety bull elk that were recorded in either Boone and Crockett or Safari Club record books. (In comparison, this is about the number of record elk that have been taken from the entire state of Montana since record keeping began in 1932.)

Since 1980, hunters on guided trophy elk hunts have enjoyed a 90 to 95 percent success rate. The average score for antlers has been 366 Boone and Crockett points. (This is a figure comparable to a foursome averaging three under par for a round of golf.)

Yes, the resource base is large, the habitat is prime and, according to reservation biologists, the genetics of the herd are ideal for producing trophy elk. But entrepreneurship played a pivotal role on Fort Apache.

Before 1977, elk hunting on the reservation provided good hunting compared with nearby national forest lands, but it was nowhere near the quality of hunting that exists today. At that time, the state of Arizona issued 700 nontribal elk permits priced at $150 each for hunting on the reservation. The state permits were required in addition to a tribal license, but the tribe received none of the revenues collected by the state. Each license entitled the bearer to shoot a bull elk regardless of size. Typical of state agencies, this policy maximized the number of hunter opportunities rather than the value of the hunt.

Fortunately for both the tribe and the elk, tribal leaders decided that they could capitalize on the market for trophy elk. In 1977, tribal chairman Ronnie Lupe, with the backing of the eleven-member tribal council, informed the state that the tribe would allow elk hunting without a state permit and would control all hunting and fishing on the reservation. The state opposed this but acquiesced after a federal court decision.

The tribe's first order of business was to reduce the hunting pressure on immature bull elk by ending the general elk hunt and replacing it with a trophy elk hunt. Permits to hunt elk were reduced from 700 to thirty, and the price per permit rose from $150 to $1500. Revenues from the sale of these reservation permits went to the tribe's general fund.

The trophy elk hunting program blossomed. Mature bulls as a percentage of all bulls increased to 73 percent, and the number of record-book elk taken rose from three in the final six years of state management to eight per season. In addition to promoting trophy elk production, the tribe also designed a quality hunting experience, free from the crowded conditions on public lands.

The tribe tapped into a mother lode of hunter demand. In 1995, revenues from trophy elk hunting exceeded $850,000. Sixty-six hunters paid $12,000 each for a seven-day trophy hunt. A special auction for four additional openings was also held, with an average winning bid of $24,000 and a high bid of $30,000. In spite of the $12,000 price tag, there is a five-year waiting list of hunters willing to pay.

Less expensive hunting opportunities exist, too. These offer a way to maintain the proper bull-to-cow ratio in the herd and help manage other wildlife species. For example, the tribe periodically issues one hundred antlerless permits priced at $300 each, which have a hunter success rate of 80 percent. The tribe also offers hunting permits for bear ($150), javelina ($75), and wild turkey ($750). It costs $50 per season or $5 per day to hunt quail, squirrel, and cottontail rabbit.

In addition to hunting, the tribe manages other resources for amenity values and collects fees. While most reservation lakes and streams are open to bait fishing, certain select waters are restricted to flies and lures. Fish species include native Apache, brown, brook, and rainbow trout, and some arctic grayling. Yearly fishing permits are priced at $80, summer permits at $50, and day permits at $5. There is even a rent-a-lake program which allows Cyclone and Hurricane lakes in their entirety to be rented for $300 per day, with a 3-day minimum. Fishing has proved lucrative, generating $600,000 in revenue in 1995.

When revenues from services such as camping, boating, and river rafting are added, amenity-based recreation enterprises generated nearly $2 million in 1995. These enterprises compare well with the tribe's logging operation, casino, and ski resort as important sources of revenues and jobs. Entrepreneurship and management institutions that conserve wildlife have benefited the White Mountain Apache and the wildlife on its territory.

Back to the Future Through Better Institutions

American Indian history teaches us that we must go beyond calls for spiritual awakenings and find workable institutions that provide positive incentives for good stewardship. Because American Indians adapted their institutions to the resource constraints, they were able to sustain life, often in hostile environments. Property rights were an integral part of American Indians' heritage. Refocusing on these institutions, as the White Mountain Apache have done, offers the best way for Native American cultures to manage their resources on a sustainable basis.

Non-Indians also will do well to stop promulgating myths as a solution to modern environmental problems. Especially in a multi-cultural society where world-views vary widely, devolution of authority and responsibility offers the best hope for resource conservation. Rather than shunning property rights solutions, we should embrace them, as did our predecessors on this continent.

Terry L. Anderson has a doctorate in economics from the University of Washington and is a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. He is the executive director of PERC and is the author and editor of more than 20 books and dozens of articles for scholarly and popular publications..

- See more at: http://perc.org/articles/conservation-native-american-style-full#sthash.PblQQtnK.dpuf
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 03:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Boudicca
Yes~Thank you Mr. T. I don't know what any of us could possibly say to thank you enough...sometimes I think that you carry all of the sorrow that we feel in our hearts, on your mind. Every informative post that you've brought to this thread DOES NOT go unappreciated:)You are admired by many for your dedication to inform us on these complicated and complex issues.
Thank you for the support. I give credit to most of my knowledge to CERA and networking with groups coast to coast in the same situations. Some things are not complicated and merely require reading the actual document whether it is a treaty, regulation, law or the constitution. But it all takes time.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 03:45 AM

And a good post by you VM. Unfortunately many people get sucked into believing what they see in the movies is true. It may have a true thread but considerable "artistic license" is used in the production. As long as the grass still grows and water flows was never in any U.S. treaty, but Johnny Cash made money on it, people sucked it up and the tribes ran with it.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 10:36 AM

– Thread Jump –

Wrong Kyle.

Here's just one example of a treaty being violated in NY. The State illegally obtained this Indian land.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/indianlandc...im/empire1.html
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-01...entral-new-york

Only the joint-approval of Indians and Congress can do so legally.

The list goes on.

Thanks for playin'.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/21/14 09:29 PM

OMG, that’s funny. Links to the Onondaga thinking about filing their land claim in 1999 and the feds just joining the Oneida in theirs, which was filed in 1974. Your Google searches are getting desperate.

It was not Indian land and they both lost their land claims.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/22/14 03:21 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140321/NEWS/140329777
Oneida Nation payments: Who decides where it's spent?


This year, Oneida County is set to get millions of dollars from the agreement signed with the Oneida Indian Nation. But who decides how the money is spent?

County Executive Anthony Picente says it's up to him. The county Board of Legislators' Democratic Minority Leader says it's up to the board.

"If this guy is given the opportunity to hand out millions of dollars, to be the Pied Piper handing out money, that's going to put him in a position of supreme power," Frank Tallarino said of Picente. "That is not granted under the (county) charter."

Picente, for his part, expressed frustration with Tallarino.

"He has been vocal about how he doesn’t want this money, but then he wants to decide how to spend it?" Picente said, referring to Tallarino's dislike of the agreement with the Nation.

He also called Tallarino’s stance "amusing and hypocritical."

The money, which is expected to be about $12.5 million annually, will come from a share of slot machine revenue from the Nation’s Turning Stone Resort Casino. The state will get 25 percent of the revenue, an anticipated $50 million, and then share 25 percent with Oneida County. The Nation also will give Oneida County an additional $2.5 million a year for the next 19 years. Picente said he wants that money to be used to hold the line on property taxes.

Tallarino has asked Republican Board Chairman Gerald Fiorini to establish a committee composed of legislators from each party, the county finance commissioner and an appointee from the county executive to determine what to do with the money.

The full board would then vote on the proposal.

Fiorini has refused.

In a Jan. 31 letter, Fiorini reminded Tallarino that the board must decide on whatever plans Picente puts forward.

"The Board of Legislators has no involvement in the negotiation of contracts, inter-municipal agreements or leases," he wrote. "Those duties are assigned to the executive branch."

Tallarino, however, pointed to another section of the charter that states the board is the "legislative, appropriating and policy determining body of the county."

State government watcher Gerald Benjamin of SUNY New Paltz sided with Picente.

"He is the budget officer,” Benjamin said. “The Legislature reviews it and can alter it as it sees fit."

Picente has not yet said what his plans are for the money.

"We are going to have to see how the revenue flows," Picente said. "This will evolve over time."

[Note: This is almost humorous arguing over money while the deal has yet to be approved by the feds, there are still three lawsuits against the ROD, and if the State has been making the counties whole I would not be surprised if the State did not just take that money back by keeping what it collected which would leave the county with little of nothing. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 03/31/14 06:21 PM

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Sheriff-backs-plan-others-seek-state-probe-5355943.php
Sheriff backs plan, others seek state probe
James M. Odato
Thursday, March 27, 2014

The Rochester developer envisioning a major casino project in south Albany got a boost from Albany County's top cop on Thursday, while taking hits from gaming companies seeking a state investigation into his alleged lobbying activities.

As Sheriff Craig Apple made public his letter supporting David Flaum's proposed casino project at Exit 23 of the Thruway, Finger Lakes Gaming and Race Track joined Western Regional Off-Track Betting Corp.'s request for a probe of Flaum's relationship with the Seneca Nation of Indians.

The Batavia-based OTB last month filed a complaint with the state Joint Commission on Public Ethics about Flaum's effort to build a casino for the Seneca gaming company in Monroe County. On Thursday, Finger Lakes Gaming President Christian Riegle wrote to JCOPE, also asking for an investigation of Flaum.

Flaum is threatening a lawsuit over the Western OTB complaint. His lawyer sent a letter to the corporation accusing its top official of making slanderous statements.

Apple said he is comfortable with the Exit 23 project and called it an economic driver that could help provide millions of dollars to local governments. He also praised the opportunities for local people from the 1,800 anticipated jobs at the Albany casino, water park and equestrian center that Flaum promised in a presentation last week to the Albany Common Council.

Apple made public his letter to Flaum and partner John Signor, president of Capital District OTB, in which he extends his full support. "The positives far outweigh the negatives," he said in an interview. Apple said he has received no campaign contributions from Flaum's team.

"It will create opportunity, not additional law enforcement concerns," Signor said.

Western OTB questioned a contract Flaum has with Seneca gaming officials who want to build a casino in his home county. Its complaint to JCOPE alleges Flaum has been an unregistered lobbyist with an improper fee deal with the Seneca gaming corporation.

Flaum's lawyer, Christopher D. Thomas, wrote to Western OTB's lawyer, Albany's Paul DerOhannesian, saying in part, "Legal action will commence unless OTB immediately withdraws the false JCOPE complaint." Thomas demanded that the OTB also retract allegedly "defamatory" statements.

Not only did Western OTB disregard the directive, it got support from Finger Lakes Gaming, a subsidiary of Buffalo-based Delaware North. Both gaming companies run racinos in western New York that could be hurt by a new Monroe County casino.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/01/14 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Not only did Western OTB disregard the directive, it got support from Finger Lakes Gaming, a subsidiary of Buffalo-based Delaware North. Both gaming companies run racinos in western New York that could be hurt by a new Monroe County casino.
There are too many lottery games, horse race tracks, racinos, and casinos in upstate NY now. Any more will just be stealing customers from each other. And driving more gamblers into bankruptcy.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/01/14 05:43 PM


So much for the feee market. whistle
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/02/14 01:26 AM

Seized Artifacts Returned To Custer Battlefield Museum
GARRYOWEN, Mont., March 31, 2014 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/

Nine years ago today, on March 31, 2005, a government assault of the Custer Battlefield Museum at Garryowen, Montana, was waged, during which armed federal agents and law enforcement officers seized numerous items with eagle feathers, which were said to have been contraband and against the law to possess.

The Custer Battlefield Museum is pleased to announce that nine years of fruitless government investigation and unsubstantiated criminal allegations of wrongdoing have come to an end.

On February 20, 2014, the United States government agreed to return the last of the 19 items that had been seized from the premises of the Custer Battlefield Museum, on the condition that the Custer Battlefield Museum terminate all court proceedings against the federal government and its agents or agencies for damages inflicted as a result of the raid.

Following countless hours of investigation by federal agents, several thousand pages of court documents, and the diligent effort of the Museum's attorneys working to correct the wrongs inflicted on the Custer Battlefield Museum, all court proceedings have come to an end. No charges were ever filed, and the last of the 19 artifacts seized by the federal government have been returned to the Custer Battlefield Museum.

The Custer Battlefield Museum houses an impressive collection of Indian artifacts from the famous 1876 battle that saw the annihilation of five companies of the U.S. 7th Cavalry led by George Armstrong Custer. It also contains memorabilia from those who participated in the battle. Photographs, artifacts, displays, and a video presentation are among the many highlights.

And the future is just beginning at the Custer Battlefield Museum. During the past decade a sister non-profit museum has been created around the collection of the documents of General Custer and his widow, Elizabeth "Libby" Bacon Custer. Following the death of General Custer, Libby spent the rest of her life documenting and building her husband's legacy. Now a new facility has been designed to house the thousands of documents of her collection, which were written over a span of 75 years.

For more information about the Elizabeth Custer Library and Museum, please go to: http://www.custerlibrary.org/newsbhc.htm.
The Custer Battlefield Museum is open year round. Summer hours: 8 a.m. to 7 p.m., seven days a week. For more information, please go to: http://www.custermuseum.org/.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/02/14 09:53 AM

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2014/APR01/city.html
City Rolls Through Casino Windfall in Short Order
By Mike Hudson
April 1, 2014

Mayor Paul Dyster, Seneca President, Barry Snyder and Gov. Andrew Cuomo celebrate what will be a spending orgy for Dyster.

(Note, yes the corrupt politicians do seem to flock together. Cuomo is one of the most notorious ones who ramrodded through the latest Oneida settlement using threats and intimidation to vote on a settlement that was not finalized and now they discovered the school district taxes were not included in the agreement. Your tax dollars at play. But this is Niagara Falls which will always be a slum with the present politicians in office.)


It was just last August. The city received $89 million in overdue payments on its share of revenue from the Seneca Niagara Casino, money that had been held up because of a dispute between the Seneca Nation of Indians and New York State.

Niagara Falls Mayor Paul Dyster was elated.

"This is one of the happiest days of my life and, I'm sure, for the city of Niagara Falls," the mayor said.

Dyster said the city tried to remain neutral in the dispute and maintain relations with both the Senecas and state, who he described as "friends" of the city.

"It hurts us to see our friends fighting," Dyster said. "So we tried to play whatever role we could to [help] facilitate a negotiated settlement."

But Dyster's nemesis, State Sen. George Maziarz, had some concerns. He was worried that city officials would blow through the money like so many drunken sailors rather than investing in programs that would create jobs and give a boost to the city's moribund economy.

Maziarz immediately set up a website to detail expenditures coming out of the casino windfall.

And events have proven Maziarz correct. Today, just nine months after the $89 million check arrived, just $29 million remains. Not a single private sector job was created with the $60 million that has been spent, taxes remain outrageously high, and the future of Niagara Falls looks as bleak as it did prior to the settlement.

What happened to the money?

To begin with, $25,363,591 was owed to various entities connected with the city and written into the contract with the state as beneficiaries of the Seneca compact. Niagara Falls Memorial Hospital, the Niagara Falls City School District, the Niagara Falls Tourism & Convention Bureau and the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority, which operates Niagara Falls International Airport, all fall into this category.

Additionally, the scandal-plagued Niagara Falls Underground Railroad Commission-which has yet to account for hundreds of thousands of dollars it received previously-raked in a whopping $1,750,000 to continue to try and find some scant evidence of a link between the city and the pre-Civil War organization that helped slaves escape from the South for freedom in Canada.

Thus far, no unequivocal link has been uncovered.

Another $4,413,777 was used to pay for road improvement projects dating back to 2009.

But what about the rest of the money, you might ask. What happened to the other $40,384,932?

Here's where the drunken sailors come in.

A total of $394,000 was used to help pay for Dyster's disastrous Lewiston Road project and a similar amount was handed over to the city's largely discredited NFC Development Corp. to provide grants and loans to small businesses owned by Dyster campaign contributors and other political insiders.

The bill came due on a mundane rock concert Dyster staged two New Year's Eve's ago which cost $50,000 while a blues festival held on Old Falls Street was a relative bargain at $20,000.

The Hard Rock Cafe's concert series, which primarily benefited the Hard Rock Cafe, cost taxpayers here $179,000, and change orders on the refurbishing of the Hyde Park Ice Pavilion burned up another $185,589. The dedication ceremony for the Legends Basketball Court somehow managed to cost $30,000 as well.

The Desman Associates parking study, which ran to around 5,000 words spread out over 22 pages due mainly to the use of an overly large typeface and plenty of pictures, cost $47,330, and the cringe worthy "Holiday Market" of 2011 was a black hole that sucked down another $225,000 of your money.

Replacing two light poles in the city lot next to Wrobel Towers cost $90,000 and putting a flashing light on Pine Avenue in front of the Como Restaurant ran another $80,500. Phase III construction at Dyster's unopened Whirlpool Street train station burned through another $350,000, and the need for outside consulting engineers because of Dyster's inability to find a real city engineer required the outlay of another $94,000.

The Aquarium got $30,000. The Niagara State 125th Park Parade got $12,284. Niagara Rises Homecoming Party got $7,500. Oakwood Cemetery got $10,000.

Nine new Ford Escapes for the city's Code Enforcement Department cost $210,595, and something called the New Jerusalem Center got $90,000 to do who knows what with.

Hiring a consultant to look at the existing locker rooms at the Ice Pavilion cost another $94,500, and removing and replacing trees at various locations around the city resulted in a bill of $92,495.

About $550,000 went to the owner of the Holiday Inn Hotel Downtown so he could improve his hotel at your expense.

The Niagara Military Affairs Council picked up $40,000.

A hundred thousand here and a hundred thousand there and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

And for the record, this recent spending of some $40 million in discretionary spending is on top of the $54 million the Dyster administration spent in Casino money prior to the latest $89 million windfall, with equally dismal results.

A total of $94 million has been spent under Dyster's direction.

This city could have been rebuilt for this amount had it been spent on serious things other than buying votes and pandering to everyone.

"It's a disgrace," Maziarz told the Niagara Falls Reporter. "[Niagara] Falls city officials are giving drunken sailors a bad name."
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/02/14 07:17 PM

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1827931
Seneca Nation Sends New York State $31.6 Million Quarterly Exclusivity Payment

The whole dispute between the State and tribe was that the State started advertising it's racinos as casinos and the Seneca started to lose business because of it. Under IGRA a tribe has to be granted an exclusivity zone (monopoly area) before a State can get a share of the revenue. There were no casinos in the exclusivity zone and no complaints until the State started their false advertizing. Years and years and hundreds of millions of dollars later the State finally agreed to stop lying. Now they all celebrate as though Prince Cuomo did something.

It's like being elated at your income tax refund until you realize it was all your money and the taxman took more than he had coming and gave you back a small portion of what was yours anyway.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/02/14 11:12 PM

http://www.pressrepublican.com/0100_news/x539823906/Some-land-tax-reimbursement-coming

April 2, 2014
Some land-tax reimbursement coming
By DENISE A. RAYMO Press-Republican

MALONE — Franklin County is getting a $700,000 reimbursement from the state for unpaid taxes on disputed parcels in the St. Regis Mohawk land-claim area.

The county is actually owed more than $9 million, "but this is great. We're happy to get that," said Sen. Betty Little (R-Queensbury), who was instrumental in obtaining the payment.

The reimbursement was included in the budget agreement reached Monday between the State Legislature and Gov. Andrew Cuomo.

"This will certainly help the county with its cash flow with respect to collecting unpaid taxes," County Treasurer Bryon Varin said. "We appreciate the efforts of Sen. Little, (Assemblywoman) Janet Duprey and the governor."

Little (R-Queensbury) said she initiated the legislation after seeing another American Indian tribe in New York receive similar funding in the 2013 budget.

"Last year, there was an agreement to give money to the Senecas, and when we saw that happening, I spoke to the representative from Cayuga, who said he wanted $1 million," she said.

"I said, 'So do I,' for the Akwesasne Mohawks and Franklin County."

She wrote letters, contacted and then lobbied the appropriate Senate Finance Committee members and others in the decision-making process and was able to garner the $700,000.

"It will really help," the senator said, adding that "the governor is going to be restarting talks on land claims, so that is something that we could have a resolution to in the near future."

LAND-CLAIM TALKS

There are 824 parcels in dispute, including one that has seen no town, school or county taxes paid since 1978.

When taxes are not paid, the county makes municipalities, including villages, whole by taking on that unpaid debt.

The county was owed about $9,083,000 as of Dec. 31, Varin said, adding that it has taken title to 90 of the involved parcels.

Cuomo announced last May that land-claim talks would resume and that terms of an agreement reached but never ratified in 2005 would be the starting point for discussions about the land the Mohawks say was taken illegally by New York state.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/05/14 08:32 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...ounty-tax-rolls
Oneida Indian Nation properties coming off Madison County tax rolls

More than 100 properties in Madison County will be removed from the county’s tax rolls as part of the settlement agreement with the Oneida Indian Nation.

Full article at url link.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/07/14 02:19 PM

http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/...2c4e1ef5a9.html
Wyoming senators author bill refuting EPA ruling that Riverton is reservation land

In a counterblow aimed at ending the boundary dispute over the Wind River Indian Reservation, Wyoming Sens. Mike Enzi and John Barrasso drafted a bill with the aid of Gov. Matt Mead's office to refute the EPA decision that Riverton is part of the reservation.

The trio's legislation is the latest step in a border war that’s pitted members of the Northern Arapaho and Eastern Shoshone tribes against Wyoming's elected officials.

The conflict, sparked by the EPA ruling, has ignited tensions between tribal and non-tribal residents of central Wyoming and fueled a debate over which governmental officials have jurisdiction to determine reservation boundaries.

Each side claims the other is unqualified to determine a boundary.

The Northern Arapaho's neighbors on the reservation, the Eastern Shoshone, are less heated about the bill.

"Generally speaking, these types of bills often save everybody time and money in regards to court actions," said Kimberly Varilek, the tribe's attorney general. "I think once the tribe has the chance to review the proposed bill they will certainly reach out to the congressional delegation and engage with the senators and the state of Wyoming in regards to the impacts across the board."


(Note: save time and money are two things Senators Schumer and Clinton refused to do when we were in the midst of land claims. Schumer told me he would not get involved as long as there was ongoing litigation. Hillary's office told me they checked with Schumer's office every morning to ask how they should vote. )


http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-an...18aef8c3b9.html
Wyoming tribe leaders blast U.S. Senate draft bill


Tribe leaders are opposing a bill co-sponsored by Wyoming's congressional delegation regarding the boundaries of the Wind River Indian Reservation.

The legislation would clarify the reservation boundary.

The boundary came under question after the Environmental Protection Agency issued a decision in December that included Riverton as part of the reservation. The draft bill would declare that the city's 171,000 acres have never been part of the reservation shared by the Eastern Shoshone and Northern Arapaho and will remain outside its borders.

In a statement, the Northern Arapaho leaders said the bill should "appall and worry Native American people everywhere."

Eastern Shoshone Business Council Chairman Darwin St. Clair said that Riverton is part of the Eastern Shoshone homeland since "time immemorial."


(Note: "time immemorial" for the Cayuga tribe was from the 1550's when they stole the land thru 1789 when they sold it. )
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/08/14 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
(Note: "time immemorial" for the Cayuga tribe was from the 1550's when they stole the land thru 1789 when they sold it. )
Ha. Good one.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/10/14 10:55 PM

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.co...rk-state-154399
NAFOA Conference to Honor Historic Agreement Between Oneida Nation & New York State

(Note: nothing beats owning your own media to pat yourself on the back)

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...oney-from-state
Madison County still waiting on $11 million settlement money from state

The Madison County Board of Supervisors passed a resolution at its meeting Tuesday, officially dropping all litigation and tax bills, liens and foreclosures against the Nation. The resolution, as part of the settlement, includes 115 Nation-owned parcels throughout the county, including one in Fenner, 13 in Canastota, 34 in Lenox, eight in Lincoln, four in Smithfield, 49 in Stockbridge and six in Sullivan.
The properties will not be taxable either retroactively or in the future.

As part of the settlement, Madison County will receive an $11 million payment from the Nation. Being passed through the state, the county was expected to receive that money April 1. As of Tuesday, Chairman John Becker said the state hasn’t delivered.

"The Nation has done their share, we've done our share," he said. "But the state has not."

(Note: well it WAS due on April FOOLS Day.)


http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20140409-006908
County removing Oneida Indian Nation properties from tax rolls
Properties in Oneida County owned by the Oneida Indian Nation are to be removed from the county's tax rolls as part of the recently enacted broad settlement with the tribe.

As part of the settlement reached last year by the state, nation, and the two counties, the counties are canceling all delinquent tax liens against tribe-owned properties and ending foreclosure proceedings. This agreement was approved by U.S. District Court Judge Lawrence E. Kahn last month and sought to end a number of ongoing disputes involving the Oneidas and the state and counties, including property taxes.

The Oneidas own about 10,000 acres of land in the county. Until now, many of the parcels have been listed on assessment rolls as taxable, even though the Oneidas never paid taxes on them.

The nation did not pay property taxes on the grounds of sovereignty. However, a 2005 U.S. Supreme Court decision said that the nation could not unilaterally assert tax immunity on land that the Oneidas bought. In response, the tribe then sought tax-free federal trust land status for approximately 17,000 acres in the two counties in order to maintain sovereignty.

(Note: that STILL has three lawsuits against it which could throw a wrench in the alleged settlement. )
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/15/14 12:14 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...t-isnt-over-yet
GOP candidate Claudia Tenney tells UCE 'the fight isn’t over yet'

Upstate Citizens for Equality members got a chance to speak face-to face with Congressional Republican primary candidate Claudia Tenney at the group's April 14 meeting.

The New York Assemblywoman, who's challenging incumbent Richard Hanna for the 22nd district House seat, told the group she stands behind them on all the issues on which they oppose the Oneida Indian Nation, from the land claim to the settlement issues.

Tenney also told the group that she is firmly against the Indian land claim and that she fully supports UCE in their pending cases in federal court.

"Name something that's more unconstitutional than what is happening here," Tenney said. "I can't think of anything."

Tenney said that she wants to see the Oneida Indian Nation and its enterprises pay their fair share of taxes in the area, and that in her eyes, the 2013 settlement agreement Gov. Andrew Cuomo brokered does nothing but derail the progress the UCE and local municipalities have made to win back what was taken from them by the Oneida Indian Nation.

"We've won already, why are they doing this now?," Tenney said. "It all comes down to who you have in office. Those people have to enforce it."

Later in the meeting, Tenney addressed the members of UCE; "I've come here to speak to you, because you guys are our last line of defense on this issue."

Tenney commended Oneida County Legislator Chad Davis for all he has done to speak out against the settlement agreement. Earlier in the meeting, Davis had voiced his support for Tenney, and most if not all of those in attendance seemed to agree with him that she was cut out for the job.

Tenney said that she is not happy with her opponent's approach to dealing with the Oneida Indian Nation and the affairs surrounding the settlement agreement and ongoing court battles involving the OIN.

"I don't have an issue with Congressman Hanna, other than the fact that I don't think he understands the power of how state and federal government works," Tenney said. "Hanna should be taking a position on this issue and helping us."

(Note: Hanna runs from the subject, never understood anything and is as valuable as an empty fire extinguisher. Throw the bum out. )

Before Tenney arrived, the beginning of the meeting was spent talking about current events and the settlement agreement. Acting President Scott Peterson noted that Madison County had still not received its $11 million check from the state. He also spent a good portion of the beginning of the meeting talking about the Cliven Bundy Ranch seizure in Navada, and commended that group for their actions against the Bureau of Land Management. Davis spent a portion of the meeting discussing his letter to Hanna about Native American affairs, general settlement issues and other motions that the Legislature has been taking, as well as answering general questions from the group about what Oneida County can still do. Davis said that the settlement, in his eyes, is not final and "the fight isn’t over yet."

UCE will hold its next monthly meeting on May 17, 7 p.m. in the Costello Conference Center.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/15/14 07:54 PM

http://www.onondaganation.org/news/2014/onondaga-nation-files-second-historic-land-rights-case/
Onondaga Nation Files Second Historic Land Rights Case
April 15, 2014

On April 15, 2014, the Onondaga Nation filed a Petition against the United States with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR), part of the Organization of American States (OAS). A goal of OAS is to achieve an order of peace and justice within the Americas, which the Onondaga Nation is seeking with this petition.

"Since 1788, 2.5 million acres of land have been stolen from the Onondaga Nation by New York State," said Joe Heath, General Counsel for the Onondaga Nation. "The failure of the US court system to protect the Onondaga Nation's ancestral homeland has left the Nation with no choice but to seek assistance for human rights violations from the international community."

(Note: OK, let me know how that works out for ya.)

The Onondaga Nation filed a land rights action in the United States District Court on March 11, 2005, which the federal court dismissed. The Nation then appealed to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, which affirmed that dismissal. Finally, the Nation filed a petition for a writ of certiorari with the Supreme Court seeking review of the dismissal and its affirmance.

"On October 15, 2013, the Supreme Court denied that petition," added Joe Heath. "Therefore, no further remedy is available for the Onondagas in the United States court system. As a United States citizen working on behalf of the nation, this saddens me as the case's merits were never heard in court."

(Note: As a U.S. citizen I am saddened by the hundreds and hundreds of lawsuits whose merits were never heard in court based on tribal sovereign immunity. )
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/18/14 01:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...t-isnt-over-yet
GOP candidate Claudia Tenney tells UCE 'the fight isn’t over yet'

"I don't have an issue with Congressman Hanna, other than the fact that I don't think he understands the power of how state and federal government works," Tenney said. "Hanna should be taking a position on this issue and helping us."

(Note: Hanna runs from the subject, never understood anything and is as valuable as an empty fire extinguisher. Throw the bum out. )


UCE will hold its next monthly meeting on May 17, 7 p.m. in the Costello Conference Center.


I explained to Hanna how the only authorities granted to the three branches of government were in the Constitution. Plus Congress did not have authority to take land from states and place it into federal trust land for tribes. So, therefore, Congress could not grant such authority to the Secretary of the Interior because Congress itself did not possess it to give.

His response was to write a letter to the DOI asking where they got the authority to take land into trust. Of course they told him Section 5 of the IRA, which I had already told him, and he dropped the ball.

The Howard – Wheeler Act as written only authorized unclaimed federal territories to be placed into trust.
Section 3: Authorizes the secretary of the interior to restore to tribal ownership the remaining surplus lands of any Indian reservation opened to sale or other disposal provided that the rights or claims of any persons to any lands such on the date of the withdrawal shall not be affected.
https://www.iltf.org/resources/land-tenu...rganization-act

Section 5: Authorizes the acquisition of lands, water rights, surface rights, and interests by the U.S. government for Indians and declares that purchased lands shall be tax exempt.

Benefits under the act were only allowed to tribes who voted to accept the Act. The ILCA changed that requirement for tribes which already possessed two or more parcels of lands held in trust for them by the federal government. So of course such exception would only apply to tribes that were federally recognized on federal reservations.

As amended: or, except as provided by the Indian Land Consolidation Act, any other person for whom the Secretary of the Interior determines that the United States may hold land in trust (added by Public Law 106-462, title I, Sec. 106(c), Nov. 7, 2000, 114 Stat. 2207):

SEC. 5.
The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized, in his discretion, to acquire through purchase, relinquishment, gift, exchange, or assignment, any interest in lands, water rights or surface rights to lands, within or without existing reservations, including trust or otherwise restricted allotments whether the allottee be living or deceased, for the purpose of providing land for Indians.

(Note: the catch of "any interest" still only applied to surplus federal lands but the DOI / BIA cherry pick words and phrases out of laws and ignore the acts themselves. One example is claiming treaties are the supreme law of the land [while treaties are one of the three supreme laws of the land, the others being the Constitution itself and any law passed by Congress.] Another example being Indians not taxed which only referred to apportionment of representation.

In this shell and pea game they ignore the surplus federal land requirement in the IRA and ignore the requirement of already possessing two or more parcels of federal trust land in the ILCA. That is what the DOI/BIA uses to justify placing 13,000 acres of state sovereign land into federal trust for the Oneida tribe.

Prince Andrew Cuomo and King Ray Halbritter reached an agreement whereby Andy gave Ray more than Ray even asked for, such as 25,000 acres of State land into federal trust, rescinded several court rulings which the State had paid tens of millions of dollars to win, drop existing foreclosure lawsuits in which King Ray had dropped his sovereign immunity defense and owed $110 million in back taxes on, and a promise never to oppose any future requests by Ray. All this in exchange for Ray agreeing to make payments to the state under a valid casino compact which could have been made by the State anyway because the State already lost Peterman v. Pataki proving the compact between Andy's father and King Ray was unconstitutional because it was never approved by the state legislature.

But Andy decided to violate rather than uphold the State Constitution, violate rather than uphold State Law 10 requiring him to defend State sovereignty, and unilaterally ignored numerous state and federal laws to issue a decree in exchange for Ray promising not to oppose Prince Andy's push to legalize casinos under the State Constitution.

All the ding dongs do, the majority of which succumbed to Andy's intimidation, is argue over how much of the percentage each will get from the State from the slot machines. In the typical Democrat vote on it to see what is in it resulted in none of the school districts being included in the settlement. In NY, that amounts to 80% of the taxes so the pie in the sky promises, which could not be guaranteed anyway, were five times higher than the fictionalized reality.

The mob has bought the State and divided territories with the tribal mobs. Against this backdrop remain three lawsuits by UCE, CERA and municipalities which could negate any land being taken into trust and Hanna is clueless, but obviously he is not the only one.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/19/14 05:33 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-news/20140419/police-investigating-death-at-turning-stone
Police investigating death at Turning Stone

State police say they will be investigating the cause of death of a woman who possibly could have died from drug-related issues at the Turning Stone Resort & Casino last week.

According to police, a 55-year-old woman was found dead inside a hotel room at the facility on April 14. She was at the resort with a 57-year-old male companion who was transported to Oneida Healthcare following a medical emergency in the hotel lobby.

"I don't anticipate any updates. We have to wait for toxicology results to return which take several weeks," said state police spokesperson Jack Keller.

"A joint investigation is underway by Oneida Nation Police and New York State Police. We have no further comment at this time," Oneida Indian Nation spokesperson Brett Stagnitti said.

[Note: people have been found dead there almost daily since it opened and the county coroner is always swamped. Why the media picked this one to report is suspicious because they have failed to report thousands. ]
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/19/14 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[Note: people have been found dead there almost daily since it opened and the county coroner is always swamped. Why the media picked this one to report is suspicious because they have failed to report thousands.]
Maybe one reason the counties sales tax is the highest in upstate NY is to pay for all the coroners work? whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/20/14 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[Note: people have been found dead there almost daily since it opened and the county coroner is always swamped. Why the media picked this one to report is suspicious because they have failed to report thousands. ]
Other than your typical suspicious musings, do you ANY evidence to indicate an actual causal relationship between the two?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/20/14 10:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[Note: people have been found dead there almost daily since it opened and the county coroner is always swamped. Why the media picked this one to report is suspicious because they have failed to report thousands. ]
Other than your typical suspicious musings, do you ANY evidence to indicate an actual causal relationship between the two?
I addition to dealing with the rest of the county, the casino more than doubled his workload. I know undertakers who have assisted him and he was told by the county not to report all the deaths because it would be bad for the casino business. It's all political and maybe the settlement changed things but thought this report was strange as a break from the censorship. Maybe it was reported because tribal competition supplied the drugs and they want opposition to their drug business quashed.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/21/14 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[Note: people have been found dead there almost daily since it opened and the county coroner is always swamped. Why the media picked this one to report is suspicious because they have failed to report thousands. ]
Other than your typical suspicious musings, do you ANY evidence to indicate an actual causal relationship between the two?
I addition to dealing with the rest of the county, the casino more than doubled his workload. I know undertakers who have assisted him and he was told by the county not to report all the deaths because it would be bad for the casino business. It's all political and maybe the settlement changed things but thought this report was strange as a break from the censorship. Maybe it was reported because tribal competition supplied the drugs and they want opposition to their drug business quashed.

So, in other words... no, you don't.
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/21/14 08:26 AM

Not all facts come from google searches, step out in the real world someday Timmy.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 12:34 AM

He's too far down that rabbit hole to do that.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
He's too far down that rabbit hole to do that.
He thinks we should go back to the year 1491 and everything would be wonderful in the Western Hemisphere.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Not all facts come from google searches, step out in the real world someday Timmy.

Let's hear in your own words, a little about this "real world" that you seem to consider yourself to be enlightened about. whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
He's too far down that rabbit hole to do that.
He thinks we should go back to the year 1491 and everything would be wonderful in the Western Hemisphere.

Wrong. What I think, is that people should stop falsely claiming to promote the cause of "equality under the law", when in fact they're only using the term as a smokescreen for what it is they truly desire. Namely, to acquire more property once stolen from a weaker victim.

Or... Selfish Greed.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Not all facts come from google searches, step out in the real world someday Timmy.

Let's hearn in your own words, a little about this "real world" that you seem to consider yourself to be enlightened about. whistle
Timbo, in your own words, I want you to say that you do not want to see all of North and South America given back to the Native Americans. Or is that what you want? Tell us one way or the other.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Not all facts come from google searches, step out in the real world someday Timmy.
Let's hear in your own words, a little about this "real world" that you seem to consider yourself to be enlightened about. whistle
Timbo, in your own words, I want you to say that you do not want to see all of North and South America given back to the Native Americans. Or is that what you want? Tell us one way or the other.

"I Want..."

As I said above... "selfish greed".

I participate on these forums, on my terms, not on yours.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 03:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Not all facts come from google searches, step out in the real world someday Timmy.
Let's hear in your own words, a little about this "real world" that you seem to consider yourself to be enlightened about. whistle
Timbo, in your own words, I want you to say that you do not want to see all of North and South America given back to the Native Americans. Or is that what you want? Tell us one way or the other.
"I Want..."

As I said above... "selfish greed".

I participate on these forums, on my terms, not on yours.
One more thing I want. I want you to stop chatting with me. It is impossible to debate/discuss a topic with someone who belittles your position but refuse to state his position. You are the most arrogant, egotistical "person" (and I use that term loosely) I have ever met on these forums.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/22/14 07:35 PM

Replying to a waste of time and space is a waste of time and space. Anything that can argue that laws based on race are constitutional as long as they are not discriminatory cannot comprehend that laws based on race are discriminatory and unconstitutional. It just cannot insert enough qualifiers to make factoids out of lies. I am confident it will rant on repeating the same lies long after I ignore its childish ignorance.

When you are dead you do not know it. It is only difficult for others.

The same is true when you are stupid.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 05:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Anything that can argue that laws based on race are constitutional as long as they are not discriminatory cannot comprehend that laws based on race are discriminatory and unconstitutional.
Well said.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 07:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Replying to a waste of time and space is a waste of time and space. Anything that can argue that laws based on race are constitutional as long as they are not discriminatory cannot comprehend that laws based on race are discriminatory and unconstitutional. It just cannot insert enough qualifiers to make factoids out of lies. I am confident it will rant on repeating the same lies long after I ignore its childish ignorance.

When you are dead you do not know it. It is only difficult for others.

The same is true when you are stupid.

Stupid, as in, not having a clue that laws can most certainly be based on race. To suggest that these are somehow discriminatory in light of the discrimination that they serve to prevent, is simply an absurd argument of technicality. These laws, are in no way unconstitutional, except perhaps, to the minds of the truly childishly ignorant or utterly disingenuous.

Examples of such laws: The Voting Rights Act, Affirmative Action, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Slave Act of 1850 and many, many more.

Sonia Sotomayor Delivers Blistering Dissent Against Affirmative Action Ban:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/22/sonia-sotomayor-affirmative-action_n_5193984.html
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 07:05 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Timbo, in your own words, I want you to say that you do not want to see all of North and South America given back to the Native Americans. Or is that what you want? Tell us one way or the other.
"I Want..."

As I said above... "selfish greed".

I participate on these forums, on my terms, not on yours.
One more thing I want. I want you to stop chatting with me.

It sucks to want, doesn't it?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Anything that can argue that laws based on race are constitutional as long as they are not discriminatory cannot comprehend that laws based on race are discriminatory and unconstitutional.
Well said.

But not particularly well thought-out.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Anything that can argue that laws based on race are constitutional as long as they are not discriminatory cannot comprehend that laws based on race are discriminatory and unconstitutional.
Well said.
But not particularly well thought-out.
But true nevertheless. Brown vs Board of Education should of settled this with the decision that separate cannot be equal.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 07:34 AM


Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts, would beg to differ.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts, would beg to differ.
Your ignorance abounds. Sotamayor was in the dissent again this week with one other justice in a similar case. Clue for the clueless, DISSENT means SCOTUS ruled against your idiocy, hateful, spiteful, racist, immature, pompous, arrogant OPINION. Affirmative Action based on race is unconstitutional as is any other based on race law.

Your ignorant examples of rulings and laws which have been overturned does not reverse history. As Kyle explained Brown v. Board of Education and you replied with Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts differ. No Bobo, Abe was not alive in 1954 and what you have never grasped is that any law or ruling supersedes all previous laws, rulings and treaty.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts, would beg to differ.
Your ignorance abounds. Sotamayor was in the dissent again this week with one other justice in a similar case. Clue for the clueless, DISSENT means SCOTUS ruled against your idiocy, hateful, spiteful, racist, immature, pompous, arrogant OPINION. Affirmative Action based on race is unconstitutional as is any other based on race law.

Your ignorant examples of rulings and laws which have been overturned does not reverse history. As Kyle explained Brown v. Board of Education and you replied with Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts differ. No Bobo, Abe was not alive in 1954 and what you have never grasped is that any law or ruling supersedes all previous laws, rulings and treaty.

A fact that leaves open ALL laws at any time, to be reinterpreted in the future. Sotamayor's dissent CLEARLY aligns with my position, as do the views of the others that concurred with her. As she clearly points out, the majority ruling in this decision, is fundamentally flawed and ignores the obvious intent.

Obviously, you believe that sometimes the courts get it wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be personally pursuing your own legal agendas, now would you?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Clue for the clueless, DISSENT means SCOTUS ruled against your idiocy, hateful, spiteful, racist, immature, pompous, arrogant OPINION...

Or, to paraphrase (vulgarities follow): grin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBt-nirXQDE
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts, would beg to differ.
Your ignorance abounds. Sotamayor was in the dissent again this week with one other justice in a similar case. Clue for the clueless, DISSENT means SCOTUS ruled against your idiocy, hateful, spiteful, racist, immature, pompous, arrogant OPINION. Affirmative Action based on race is unconstitutional as is any other based on race law.

Your ignorant examples of rulings and laws which have been overturned does not reverse history. As Kyle explained Brown v. Board of Education and you replied with Abraham Lincoln and multiple Supreme Courts differ. No Bobo, Abe was not alive in 1954 and what you have never grasped is that any law or ruling supersedes all previous laws, rulings and treaty.

A fact that leaves open ALL laws at any time, to be reinterpreted in the future. Sotamayor's dissent CLEARLY aligns with my position, as do the views of the others that concurred with her.
WOW, you finally learned SOMETHING and accepted that your alleged fact which you made a pompus ass of your self on was just your opinion and was WRONG. Whoo hoo your psychiatrist should be happy.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 02:14 PM


Translation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ics1Jqha6o
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 10:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Replying to a waste of time and space is a waste of time and space. Anything that can argue that laws based on race are constitutional as long as they are not discriminatory cannot comprehend that laws based on race are discriminatory and unconstitutional. It just cannot insert enough qualifiers to make factoids out of lies. I am confident it will rant on repeating the same lies long after I ignore its childish ignorance.

When you are dead you do not know it. It is only difficult for others.

The same is true when you are stupid.


All true.


April 23, 2014
Justice Sotomayor and the affirmative action bitter-enders have lost bigtime
Thomas Lifson


The American public has woken up to the folly of trying to end racial discrimination by practicing it, dooming affirmative action to a slow death, and the racialist left is not taking the news very well. That is the only conclusion to draw from the extraordinary dissenting opinion yesterday by Justice Sonia Sotomayor in Schuette v BAMN, the case in which the Court upheld Michigan’s law outlawing racial preferences in state-funded higher education. Sotomayor took the unusual step of reading the dissent aloud from the bench, indicating her vehemence.

Justice Sotomayor’s dissent was actually longer than all the other opinions in the case combined, so that reading took a while. But she was faced with a difficult task in explaining why refusing to treat races differently is actually racial discrimination, so of course she need a lot of verbiage, background, and pretzel twisting.

Four aspects of her argument stand out:

She attempted to re-brand “affirmative action” as “race-sensitive admissions.”

“Although the term “affirmative action” is commonly used to describe colleges’ and universities’ use of race in crafting admissions policies, Instead use the term “race-sensitive admissions policies.” Some comprehend the term “affirmative action” as connoting intentional preferential treatment based on race alone—for example, the use of a quota system, whereby a certain proportion of seats in an institution’s incoming class must be set aside for racial minorities; the use of a “points” system, whereby an institution accords a fixed numerical advantage toan applicant because of her race; or the admission of otherwise unqualified students to an institution solely on account of their race. None of this is an accurate description of the practices that public universities are permitted to adopt after this Court’s decision in Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 306 (2003).” (fn. 2)

John Fund correctly notes that this is an implicit admission of failure: “You can often tell when advocates of one side in an argument fear they will ultimately lose. They change their branding.” [LOL..."now it's "climate change", instead of GW.]


She doubled-down on the questionable notion that preferences benefit minorities. There is a growing body of experience indicating that the phenomenon known as “mismatch” results in minorities being placed in situations where they cannot compete with the more-qualified students who received no such preferences. The results have been high drop-out rates, leaving failed students worse off than if they had been admitted to institutions where their qualifications were similar to those of other students.

This is precisely what has happened with the end of racial preferences in California following the passage of Proposition 209. Fewer blacks and Hispanics have been admitted to the elite campuses at Berkeley and Los Angeles, but more have gone to less competitive schools. The overall graduation rate for blacks and Hispanics has risen in the UC System.

Yet Sotomayor appealed to “common sense” in writing about the “common sense reality that race-sensitive admissions benefit minorities.”

[But they harm all of those who aren't favored by the race-based preferential treatment. Racists such as Sotomayor and Timbo don't care about those victims of their "thinking" at all, though.]

Left completely out of the picture in her dissent was the situation of Asian-Americans, a minority to be sure, but one that is greatly harmed by “race-sensitive”

She attacked Chief Justice Roberts’ common sense words (without naming him) in another decision -- “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race” -- as “out of touch with reality.” She continues, “Race matters. Race matters in part because of the long history of racial minorities’ being denied access to the political process.” Instead, she says, “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to speak openly and candidly on the subject of race, and to apply the Constitution with eyes open to the unfortunate effects of centuries of racial discrimination.”

She embraced the notion that no preference can ever be rolled back. She enunciated the theory that any change which “disadvantaged” minorities (in her opinion – see point 2 above) is inherently discrimination:

“This case involves this last chapter of discrimination: A majority of the Michigan electorate changed the basic rules of the political process in that State in a manner that uniquely disadvantaged racial minorities.” (snip)

“But instead, the majority of Michigan voters changed the rules in the middle of the game, reconfiguring the existing political process in Michigan in a manner that burdened racial minorities.”

William Jacobson correctly observes, “This is, as Kurt Schlichter calls it, essentially a ratchet theory, that no preference ever can be rolled back otherwise the rollback is discrimination.”

Sotomayor isn’t the only one who realizes the magnitude of the loss the race industry has endured. By Any Means Necessary (BAMN), the plaintiff in the case, is vowing resistance:

George Washington — who represents BAMN or “By Any Means Necessary” — threatening to take aim atthe Supreme Court’s decision to uphold Michigan’s ban on using race as a factor in college admissions.

“We’re going to have to take the gloves off,” Washington told WWJ Newsradio 950, shortly after the justices’ ruling was announced on Tuesday. “This Supreme Court is systematically setting about undoing the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, so we’re gonna have to return to the methods of sit-ins and protests, and strikes and the things which won it in the first place.”

Somehow I doubt Harry Reid will call them “domestic terrorists.”
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 11:16 PM

Oh, please, look who's hijacking the discussion into an argument about Affirmative Action.

The fact is, these guys are simply wrong in their specific assumptions about the distinctions between race, discrimination and the law, and the way(s) that they relate to each other in legal terms.

The courts established this precedent starting at least after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation and have continued to rule accordingly again and again. The Supreme Court has basically said (on multiple occasions) that a state may use (for instance) affirmative action programs if it chooses to do so, but is not required to use them.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 11:35 PM

Sorry...I don't see your posts, unless they're quoted. Life is too short to waste the time.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/23/14 11:36 PM


I'm sorry... what were you saying, now?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/24/14 11:29 AM

Yes, that is the case I was alluding to.

Affirmative action was passed to include all people regardless of race based on qualifications. The racists turned it into a race promotion law regardless of qualifications. Those not competent fall on their face, drop out, get frustrated with their inabilities, file lawsuits expecting everything to be handed to them because of their race and face shunning by those they deal and work with. They fit the stupid profile just as one on here now claims that SCOTUS is wrong. HAH!!!

But that is coming from the it which claims blood quantum is meaningless EXCEPT when it comes to legalities. DUH? Plus those who wrote the historical records of the Iroquois filed in the archives of the University of Rochester lied. Oh, and taxes in TN are higher than NY. Ya just can't fix stupid.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/24/14 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Yes, that is the case I was alluding to.

Affirmative action was passed to include all people regardless of race based on qualifications. The racists turned it into a race promotion law regardless of qualifications. Those not competent fall on their face, drop out, get frustrated with their inabilities, file lawsuits expecting everything to be handed to them because of their race and face shunning by those they deal and work with. They fit the stupid profile just as one on here now claims that SCOTUS is wrong. HAH!!!

But that is coming from the it which claims blood quantum is meaningless EXCEPT when it comes to legalities. DUH? Plus those who wrote the historical records of the Iroquois filed in the archives of the University of Rochester lied. Oh, and taxes in TN are higher than NY. Ya just can't fix stupid.


1) A significant number of members on the supreme court, have reached precisely that same conclusion.

2) Apparently, I can't prevent you some people from misquoting me.

3) See #2.

4) In many ways, taxes ARE higher in Tennessee (sales tax being just one extremely obvious example).

So... it would appear that indeed, you can't fix stupid. grin
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/24/14 09:09 PM

Quote:
Affirmative action


Old Chinese saying: The beginning of wisdom is calling things by their proper names. So:

affirmative racism.

John Hinderaker's comment:

"The majority held that a state can indeed ban discrimination on the basis of race. Whew! Some of us thought that issue was settled by the 14th Amendment. But two justices, Ginsburg and Sotomayor, dissented: they would have held that states are required to engage in race discrimination, no matter how much a state’s citizens may protest in favor of equal treatment."

I just mentioned, on the school tax thread in SC, that the school taxes on a $169K in South Seneca would be $2717 next year, in SF they'd be $3923 this year, and in Tennessee, ZERO. Total tax on a $160k house in your neighborhood: $684. It probably will insist that they're higher in Tn. You're right; it can't be fixed.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/25/14 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Affirmative action
Old Chinese saying: The beginning of wisdom is calling things by their proper names. So: affirmative racism.

John Hinderaker's comment:

"The majority held that a state can indeed ban discrimination on the basis of race. Whew! Some of us thought that issue was settled by the 14th Amendment. But two justices, Ginsburg and Sotomayor, dissented: they would have held that states are required to engage in race discrimination, no matter how much a state’s citizens may protest in favor of equal treatment."

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, please, look who's hijacking the discussion into an argument about Affirmative Action.

The fact is, these guys are simply wrong in their specific assumptions about the distinctions between race, discrimination and the law, and the way(s) that they relate to each other in legal terms.

The courts established this precedent starting at least after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation and have continued to rule accordingly again and again. The Supreme Court has basically said (on multiple occasions) that a state may use (for instance) affirmative action programs if it chooses to do so, but is not required to use them.

What he said.

Nonsensical speculation (and highly unlikely speculation, at that).

FYI: That's not accurate. Asked by a disciple how to rule a state properly, Confucius replies that it begins with rectifying the names:
“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be conducted successfully. When affairs cannot be conducted successfully, propriety will not flourish. When propriety does not flourish, punishments will not be properly meted out. When punishments are not properly meted out, the people will not know how to conduct themselves.” -The Analects. (circa 475 B.C.)

The Proverb you reference actually goes:
"The Beginning of Wisdom is to realize that a name is simply a label and does nothing to express form or function. The beginning of True Wisdom is to identify the Quality of a Thing."

The expression evolved as a loose paraphrase of Confucius' comment above.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/26/14 09:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Let's hear in your own words, a little about this "real world" that you seem to consider yourself to be enlightened about. whistle


you sided with the british and lost
have the british been 'cry me a river' for the past 200 years?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/26/14 01:19 PM


Has anyone recently invaded England and denied them the right to self determination?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/26/14 02:01 PM

is the USA offering self determination for the british on US soil today?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/26/14 07:26 PM


Are Native Americans offering it for European settlers in the Americas?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/27/14 07:38 AM

the USA defeated the british
read your posts
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/27/14 01:42 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
the USA defeated the british
read your posts

Then be sure to be sure to keep your mouth shut when somebody kicks your @ss, rapes your daughter, steals your house and puts you out on the street.

Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/27/14 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
the USA defeated the british
read your posts

Then be sure to be sure to keep your mouth shut when somebody kicks your @ss, rapes your daughter, steals your house and puts you out on the street.

This was hundreds of years ago. What do you think we should do about it now? mmmmm? You steadfastly refuse to tell us what you think we should do about it now. Make note of that bluezone. He has no answer. He just blabbers on and on without offering any solution. Anyone can do that.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/27/14 11:03 PM


What's the statute of limitations on Genocide ? ? ?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What's the statute of limitations on Genocide ? ? ?
1. In what year or years did this Genocide take place?
2. Who committed this Genocide?
3. If we round up the people who committed this Genocide to bring them to justice, what should their punishment be?

(Keep in mind that some of them "who you think" were Committers of Genocide hundreds of year before the term came into existence formed the greatest nation the world has ever known and you proudly served in the military of that nation. I believe that makes you an Unindicted Coconspirator.)


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007043

The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944. It is a very specific term, referring to violent crimes committed against groups with the intent to destroy the existence of the group. Human rights, as laid out in the US Bill of Rights or the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, concern the rights of individuals.

In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of the European Jews. He formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, derived from the Latin word for killing. In proposing this new term, Lemkin had in mind "a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves." The next year, the International Military Tribunal held at Nuremberg, Germany, charged top Nazis with "crimes against humanity." The word “genocide” was included in the indictment, but as a descriptive, not legal, term.

THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It defines genocide as:

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

While many cases of group-targeted violence have occurred throughout history and even since the Convention came into effect, the legal and international development of the term is concentrated into two distinct historical periods: the time from the coining of the term until its acceptance as international law (1944-1948) and the time of its activation with the establishment of international criminal tribunals to prosecute the crime of genocide (1991-1998). Preventing genocide, the other major obligation of the convention, remains a challenge that nations and individuals continue to face.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 10:44 AM


Yep!

Fits it to a tee.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep!

Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one. LOL
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 12:02 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep!

Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide [h]as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one. LOL

W H A T ?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 12:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep!

Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide [h]as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one. LOL

W H A T ?

Wow.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 01:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep!

Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide [h]as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one. LOL

W H A T ?
Can you read? You need to get a better grip on your vocabulary.
Quote:
The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 01:53 PM

THE PEACE LOVING INDIANS ARE AT WAR! WITH OTHER INDIANS IN THEIR SAME TRIBE!

****************************************************

Confrontations between opposing factions of the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York on Monday morning resulted in law enforcement authorities being called to tribe-owned Union Springs and Seneca Falls sites.

The situation unfolded this morning when a faction within the tribe that claims it is in charge moved in to take over sites from the existing leadership.

In Union Springs, the gas station/convenience store are now locked down and a Cayuga County Sheriff's Office deputy will stand guard at the site until the two sides can work out an agreement, Sheriff David Gould said.

The situation is still unfolding in Seneca Falls, according to Joseph Heath, an attorney who represents a group within the nation called the Unity Council.

The Unity Council voted several years ago to remove the tribe's federal representative, Clint Halftown, from his leadership post, but Halftown challenged the legality of that decision with the federal agency that oversees Indian affairs. In January, the federal Interior Board of Indian Affairs sided with Halftown.

Believing that decision to be in violation of the nation's own law, the Unity Council decided to attempt to seize control of the nation's businesses on Monday, Heath said.

The Union Springs scene is now secured, with the sides agreeing to have the building locked until an agreement could be reached. Gould said he was contacted by the Unity Council Sunday night about their intentions to move in with paperwork that they say gives them control. The sheriff arranged a meeting with leaders of both sides at 6 a.m. Monday, and it appeared they had come to an understanding. About an hour later, though, fighting broke out and 911 was contacted. Heath said one member of the Unity Council was taken to the hospital with an injury.

Sheriff's deputies restored order to the scene and the lockdown has been in place since then. Gould said a nation-owned car wash and the electronic bingo hall remain open.

Heath said the scene in Seneca Falls is less stable at this point, with Unity Council members taking over an office building.

Representatives of Halftown were not immediately available for comment.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 02:08 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep!

Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide [h]as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one. LOL

W H A T ?
Can you read? You need to get a better grip on your vocabulary.
Quote:
The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944.

Are you suggesting acts of genocide are defined by or limited to a particular time period?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep! Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide [h]as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one.
W H A T ?
Can you read? You need to get a better grip on your vocabulary.
Quote:
The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944.
Are you suggesting acts of genocide are defined by or limited to a particular time period?
Duh. That is what the article said did it not?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
The Union Springs scene is now secured, with the sides agreeing to have the building locked until an agreement could be reached. Gould said he was contacted by the Unity Council Sunday night about their intentions to move in with paperwork that they say gives them control. The sheriff arranged a meeting with leaders of both sides at 6 a.m. Monday, and it appeared they had come to an understanding. About an hour later, though, fighting broke out and 911 was contacted. Heath said one member of the Unity Council was taken to the hospital with an injury.
This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: kyle585
The Union Springs scene is now secured, with the sides agreeing to have the building locked until an agreement could be reached. Gould said he was contacted by the Unity Council Sunday night about their intentions to move in with paperwork that they say gives them control. The sheriff arranged a meeting with leaders of both sides at 6 a.m. Monday, and it appeared they had come to an understanding. About an hour later, though, fighting broke out and 911 was contacted. Heath said one member of the Unity Council was taken to the hospital with an injury.
This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?

And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: kyle585
The Union Springs scene is now secured, with the sides agreeing to have the building locked until an agreement could be reached. Gould said he was contacted by the Unity Council Sunday night about their intentions to move in with paperwork that they say gives them control. The sheriff arranged a meeting with leaders of both sides at 6 a.m. Monday, and it appeared they had come to an understanding. About an hour later, though, fighting broke out and 911 was contacted. Heath said one member of the Unity Council was taken to the hospital with an injury.
This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?
And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?
How many members does this so-called sovereign nation have? 50? 100? What a joke. They can't do anything for themselves except sell tax free gas and coffin nails. The accuracy of the gas pumps on their Rt 89 station are verified by Seneca County weights and measures! How sad is that?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yep! Fits it to a tee.
What fits? Genocide [h]as only been around since 1944. Has the USA committed genocide against Native Americans since that time? You obviously blew your comment on this one.
W H A T ?
Can you read? You need to get a better grip on your vocabulary.
Quote:
The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944.
Are you suggesting acts of genocide are defined by or limited to a particular time period?
Duh. That is what the article said did it not?

No. Creation and international recognition of the definition does not somehow magically erase it's brutal execution throughout history.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Creation and international recognition of the definition does not somehow magically erase it's brutal execution throughout history.
I understand that this type of action happened throughout human history. It was just called something other than genocide before 1944. I am just amused that Timbo did not know that. He likes to give the impression he knows everything about everything. And the recent Indian on Indian battle in Seneca and Cayuga county lends great credence to Rich's argument that the Indians fought much among themselves before 1492. It just so happens that the Indians tribes in control when the white man arrived were the latest brutal victors over earlier tribes. This has been going on for at least 10,000 years in the western hemispere. The raping, the scalping etc.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 05:07 PM

Quote:
I understand that this type of action happened throughout human history. It was just called something other than genocide before 1944.


Right. It had been condemned by many as barbaric and inhumane, etc., but conquest hadn't been formally declared illegal. Hence, the notion of a "statute of limitations" is another misdirection; there were no statutes concerning conquering, or treatment of conquered, aborigines, whether on this continent, or in Hawaii, or in the Philippines, etc., etc. If there had been, the USG would have ignored them, anyway, as your "Greatest Nation on Earth" ignores war crimes laws to this day, in its serial commission of its many war crimes.

By contrast, The Nuremberg trials were enabled by legal precedent, and after Nuremberg, of course, such crimes were prohibited by codified law.

"A precedent for trying those accused of war crimes had been set at the end of World War I in the Leipzig War Crimes Trials held in May to July 1921 before the Reichsgericht (German Supreme Court) in Leipzig"

I think the Leipzig trials of 1921 were themselves based on the Geneva conventions of 1864 and 1906, and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. Of course, they only applied to the treatment of "civilized" peoples. wink

The Nuremberg Conventions, the 1949 Geneva Convention, and the UN conventions say that no nation can do it to any people...not in Vietnam, nor in Nicaragua, or Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya, etc., etc., etc.

This may indeed be the "Greatest Nation", if one judges by the 20-30 million body count the USG has racked up since the end of WWII. It will continue as long as people keep voting for it, or until the money capacity to borrow and print runs out, or until the empire is subdued.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
I am just amused that Timbo did not know that.

Of course I knew that , you silly idgit. I also recognize it to be an incredibly inept attempt at making a cogent point.

Yet none of your weaselly arguments changes the fact that genocide was indeed committed upon American Indians and nations world-over still continue to offer reparations AND remedies to tyrannized indigenous natives. That list includes Australia, the Caribbean and Guatemala among others. Soon you will likely be able to add Great Britian and Chile to that list.

http://www.corteidh.or.cr/tablas/24777.pdf
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
I understand that this type of action happened throughout human history. It was just called something other than genocide before 1944.


Right. It had been condemned by many as barbaric and inhumane, etc., but conquest hadn't been formally declared illegal. Hence, the notion of a "statute of limitations" is another misdirection; there were no statutes concerning conquering, or treatment of conquered, aborigines, whether on this continent, or in Hawaii, or in the Philippines, etc., etc. If there had been, the USG would have ignored them, anyway, as your "Greatest Nation on Earth" ignores war crimes laws to this day, in its serial commission of its many war crimes.

By contrast, The Nuremberg trials were enabled by legal precedent, and after Nuremberg, of course, such crimes were prohibited by codified law.

"A precedent for trying those accused of war crimes had been set at the end of World War I in the Leipzig War Crimes Trials held in May to July 1921 before the Reichsgericht (German Supreme Court) in Leipzig"

I think the Leipzig trials of 1921 were themselves based on the Geneva conventions of 1864 and 1906, and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. Of course, they only applied to the treatment of "civilized" peoples. wink

The Nuremberg Conventions, the 1949 Geneva Convention, and the UN conventions say that no nation can do it to any people...not in Vietnam, nor in Nicaragua, or Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya, etc., etc., etc.

This may indeed be the "Greatest Nation", if one judges by the 20-30 million body count the USG has racked up since the end of WWII. It will continue as long as people keep voting for it, or until the money capacity to borrow and print runs out, or until the empire is subdued.

Hindsight is merely 20/20 vision? crazy
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Yes, that is the case I was alluding to.

Affirmative action was passed to include all people regardless of race based on qualifications. The racists turned it into a race promotion law regardless of qualifications. Those not competent fall on their face, drop out, get frustrated with their inabilities, file lawsuits expecting everything to be handed to them because of their race and face shunning by those they deal and work with. They fit the stupid profile just as one on here now claims that SCOTUS is wrong. HAH!!!

But that is coming from the it which claims blood quantum is meaningless EXCEPT when it comes to legalities. DUH? Plus those who wrote the historical records of the Iroquois filed in the archives of the University of Rochester lied. Oh, and taxes in TN are higher than NY. Ya just can't fix stupid.


1) A significant number of members on the supreme court, have reached precisely that same conclusion.

Not good at math, huh? TWO is NOT significant. The SEVEN who agreed with Justice Roberts that "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race" is significant and is now Common Law AND unconstitutional. You will always be wrong.

Your qualifier that you support racism as long as it is against a majority does not change it from being a racist philosophy.

Justice Sotomayor's dissent was actually longer than all the other opinions in the case combined, so that reading took a while. But she was (and you are) faced with a difficult task in explaining why refusing to treat races differently is actually racial discrimination, so of course she (and) you) need a lot of verbiage, background, and pretzel twisting.


2) Apparently, I can't prevent you some people from misquoting me.

3) See #2.

Your factoid opinions are here for all to see. Your denial of making them does not make them disappear.

4) In many ways, ONE way, you REALLY suck at math taxes ARE higher in Tennessee (sales tax being just one extremely obvious example).

ONE PERCENT (1 penny) average combined sales tax higher than NY is the ONLY one and miniscule compared to the thousands of tax dollars not charged. REALLY not good at math are ya? I just spent two weeks vacationing in Florida from the taxes I did not have to spend.

So... it would appear that indeed, you can't fix stupid. grin


Have fun in Timboland.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Your qualifier that you support racism as long as it is against a majority does not change it from being a racist philosophy.

I qualified no such thing, you dolt.

What you apparently fail to understand about ALL US law, is that the courts are charged with interpreting the intent behind such documents as the Constitution and are absolutely not limited by the specific wording contained within. In order to serve the greater good or in an attempt to uphold the intent, they are free to impose rulings that do not necessarily follow that which is not specifically enumerated, or that may bump up against that which is, IF by doing so, the intent is more fully recognized.

The interests of the "majority" are irrelevant. The execution of the of justice remains firmly at the core of legal rulings as per US legal jurisprudence. Unfortunetely, more often than not, the process for determining what is"just", is fraught with competing ideals, principals and are often contradictory and most always counterintuitive (regardless of how reductionistic, your views and those of others, may be on this issue).
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Has anyone recently invaded England and denied them the right to self determination?
Has anyone recently invaded the United States and denied them the right to self determination?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 08:39 PM


It would seem that Tennessee's drinking water has a seriously high lead content. whistle
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 09:08 PM

You were the one that put the qualifier "recently" in the question. Can't answer your own question? Is your Google broken?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 09:24 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Then be sure to be sure to keep your mouth shut when somebody kicks your @ss, rapes your daughter, steals your house and puts you out on the street.

This was hundreds of years ago. What do you think we should do about it now? mmmmm? You steadfastly refuse to tell us what you think we should do about it now. Make note of that bluezone. He has no answer. He just blabbers on and on without offering any solution. Anyone can do that.
It is making an unsupported generalized ramble with no citations or specifics and the only ones who committed genocide in New York were the Iroquois. Maybe we should charge the Iroquois with genocide of the Huron, Neutral and Erie. But it would not know that because it is clueless about New York.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 10:07 PM

Proved my point once again.

But she was (and you are) faced with a difficult task in explaining why refusing to treat races differently is actually racial discrimination, so of course she (and you) need a lot of verbiage, background, and pretzel twisting.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 10:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Proved my point once again.

But she was (and you are) faced with a difficult task in explaining why refusing to treat races differently is actually racial discrimination, so of course she (and you) need a lot of verbiage, background, and pretzel twisting.

Not so, your own apparent limitations with "verbiage" make it quite unchallenging indeed.

And since you bring up the subject, background is everything. A Fact that you seem to be curiously opposed to having it introduced into the dialogue. I wonder why that is. Other concepts that you seem to be opposed to considering, are "context", "nuance" and "perspective".whistle

Q: What's black and white and red state all over?

A: You.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/28/14 11:41 PM

Actually John Fund brought it up in the article VMS posted from the WSJ to which you did not read or comprehend even though you continued to make the fool that you are of yourself by bashing VMS for hijacking the thread.

To which I posted in the post you replied to which is why I reposted it to draw attention to your avoidance of the obvious being that you have to ramble like Sotamayor to justify your support for her racist view that racial discrimination against a majority race is not racist.

You said her position is exactly the same as yours and then deny making that qualifier.

Background is not everything and your avoidance of reply to my copy of your recent invasions question makes it obvious you are the one avoiding acceptance of how far back. Yet you also avoided my post of questioning if we should prosecute the Iroquois for genocide. How far back do you wish to go?

SCOTUS already ruled against your position. You lose again. Ramble on.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/29/14 01:15 AM

Actually John Fund brought it up in the article VMS posted from the WSJ to [color:#FF0000]which you did not read or comprehend even though you continued to make the fool that you are of yourself by bashing VMS for hijacking the thread.

Not so foolish as you'd like to portray. Bringing it up is one thing. Perpetuating the off-topic issue is altogether another matter. Just one more distinction that apparently eludes you. It was a dodge. He knows it, you know it, and everyone else knows it.

You said her position is exactly the same as yours and then deny making that qualifier.

Liar. I said "Sotamayor's dissent CLEARLY aligns with my position, as do the views of the others that concurred with her." One means one thing, the other, does not. Now I know where Kyle gets the habit of chronically misquoting others.

Background is not everything...

It most certainly is, if you have any curiosity whatsoever, in having ALL of the facts.

Yet you also avoided my post of questioning if we should prosecute the Iroquois for genocide.

Of course I avoided it. It was an entirely moronic and completely Irrelevant question, since they did not inflict damages upon YOU, did they?

SCOTUS already ruled against your position.

If that's the way you feel about the mechanics of the legal process, then you no doubt will discontinue any future legal battles against the Senecas or any other group of Indians, since the laws are already settled. In the meantime, I'll be perfectly content to continue pushing for TRUE racial justice, by all legal means available to me and to those with whom I agree with on this issue.

Thanks for your "sincere" interest in my personal well being. grin
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/30/14 09:38 AM


Senecas Oneidas
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/30/14 05:08 PM

If anything rambles off on a tangent of deflection to avoid anything you are it. But you are no good at dodge ball because you repeatedly get hit. i.e.: you are out.

Clearly is a qualifier that does not mean exactly. It means you would agree with her ramble and rant but she CLEARLY aligns with your position, which was CLEARLY ruled unconstitutional.

Background is not everything although crying over the past is all you have to whine about and you will never accept the facts that exist which do not concur with your factoid assumptive opinions which you call facts.

The present is what matters and SCOTUS ruled in favor of justifiable expectations overriding tribal sovereignty which had long ago grown cold. You can read that in the Sherrill ruling.

Your own moronic assumption that the Iroquois did not inflict damages or genocide upon me is false as evidenced in the Wyoming Valley Massacre. Records of my own ancestors is proof of that. But, hey, that was 1788 and I doubt any guilty party is alive to prosecute.

But that does not change the fact that the Iroquois are guilty of genocide of whole tribes nor fit your selective racist agenda. It matters not to you that they exterminated three whole cultures (actually more as they assimilated other tribes) in the process of stealing the lands which they then sold numerous times over.

The only tribal claim to alleged genocide nowadays stretches ICWA beyond recognition. You should pick up a copy of Dying In Indian Country by Beth Ward.

No legal battles against any tribes have ever been pursued except as a defense against lawsuits initiated by tribes. Only the tribes can stop that by not filing anymore lawsuits.

There are at least three more cases headed to SCOTUS this year which will CLEARLY rule against your perception of the world according to Timbo. Google that.

There is no lawsuit against the Oneida. There are three locally against the DOI.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/30/14 05:20 PM

Tribal capitalists earning the ire of environmentalists
Doug MacEachern, The Republic | azcentral.com 12:42 p.m. MST April 28, 2014

Maybe the "demography is destiny" crowd has a point, and Republicans are washed up for not making them¬selves more appeal¬ing to minorities.

But if the GOP message is that the fruits of free enter¬prise are ripe and within reach of everyone, one minority group — Native Americans — seems to be hearing it.

And, just like Republicans, they are catching hell from the statists and control freaks for daring to value making a buck.
Not all modern-day tribal revenue comes out of slot ma¬chines. Apaches make decent money from their logging op¬erations, especially since lawsuits ostensibly intended to save the habitat of the Mexican spotted owl shut down their competitors off-reservation.

(Side note: According to the Arizona Game and Fish De¬partment, about 30 percent of spotted owl habitat in Arizona has been wiped out in the last 12 years by the mega-fires sweeping through timber-¬choked forests that greenies fight to the death against be¬ing commercially logged. Just sayin'.) Navajos, meanwhile, operate coal mines that fuel power plants that energy firms lease on Navajo lands. And a rather bold tribe in British Columbia, Canada, appears to have hit the salmon-fishing jackpot with "open-sea mariculture" that has produced a bounty of salmon in their region. And a bounty of hostility from green groups.

In all these cases — by harvesting pine trees regardless of diameter; by mining coal; and by seeding a portion of the ocean floor with iron sulfate in order to stimulate a food source for young salmon — the tribes have incurred the wrath of the environmental left, which would be happy to keep the tribes on the federal dole rather than earning filthy lucre on their own.

In some cases, as in northern Arizona, the enviros are proving successful in creating unemployed Navajos. The En¬vironmental Protection Agency last fall forced the owners of the Navajo Generating Station near Page into a deal to shut down one of the plant's three generators, thus reducing the need for Navajo coal miners and plant workers by a third.

In other cases, such as with the Haida salmon-restoration project, founded by the Haida tribe of British Columbia, the jury's out.

The Haida spent $2.5 mil¬lion to seed ocean areas where young salmon are known to run with 120 tons of iron oxide and sulphate. That spawned an enormous plume of plankton on which the young fish fed, leading to an unprecedented amount of pink salmon returning to the Fraser River in the fall of 2013.

The Haida, who commercially fish the Fraser, benefited economically, obviously. And this brazen act of independence is proving utterly maddening to environmental groups: "Even the placement of iron particles into the ocean, whether for carbon sequestration or fish replenishment, should not take place, unless it is assessed and found to be legitimate scientific research without commercial motiva¬tion (my italics)," said one horrified green-groupist.

In Arizona, Apaches for generations have conducted logging operations on their land in the eastern mountains — out of the legal grasp of their environmentalist betters, in other words.

Their stewardship of the forests they control provided the prototype for forest reme¬diation projects such as the Four Forest Restoration Ini¬tiative — a profit-seeking model that may be the only viable means of saving our overgrown forests from wildfire.

The difference between complex, politically tenuous endeavors such as 4FRI and, say, the Fort Apache Timber Co., operated by the White Mountain Apache Tribe, is that the Apaches don't have to twist themselves into environmental pretzels to accommodate commerce-despising green groups.

Shorthand for the tribal logging company is "FATCO." I love that name. Fat-And-Sassy-Co.

The company mission statement declares — twice! — that the tribal interest is totally at odds with the environmentalists' sphincter-tight¬ened hatred of capitalism.

FATCO exists "to economically and efficiently manufac¬ture lumber or other timber products at a profit while providing employment opportunities for members of the Tribe."

The Arizona-wide payoff of their logging efforts came 12 years ago. When the Rodeo-Chediski maelstrom was threatening the existence of Pinetop-Lakeside, it was flattening out into harmless ankle-nipping grass fires on Apache lands.

Today, commercial timber products operations in Arizo¬na are running out of U.S. Forest Service land to thin. Partly because 50,000 acres of forest approved for harvesting went up in smoke in the Wallow Fire. And partly because the Forest Service takes forever to approve new land for thinning ... which is partly because of their desperate fear of be¬ing sued by green groups.

Environmentalists used to complain that mainstream society needs to see the world as Native Americans do. If only they would let us.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 04/30/14 07:48 PM

http://fingerlakesdailynews.com/news/details.cfm?clientid=16&id=124671#.U2GZqFe0RR9

Cayugas Reopen Lakeside Trading In Union Springs

4/30/2014 1:43:15 PM
By Joe Nittler

The Cayuga Nation's federally recognized leadership again controls and has re-opened the Lakeside Trading Store and gas station in Union Springs. The status of the Seneca Falls Outlet is unclear this afternoon. Monday morning members of the Unity Council faction took over both outlets and closed them. They claimed workers were being abused under the leadership of federal representative Clint Halftown. Efforts to reach both sides have been unsuccessful at this point.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/01/14 06:25 AM

http://fingerlakesdailynews.com/news/details.cfm?clientid=16&id=124671#.U2Ity1e0RR8

4/30/2014 1:43:15 PM
By Greg Cotterill, Fred von Wiegen and Joe Nittler

UPDATE: 5:30am 05/01/14

Tensions remain high as the Cayuga Nation struggles to resolve a standoff between the Nation's Unity Council and Clint Halftown. This week that struggle boiled over when the Unity Council, claiming that workers were being abused under Halftown's leadership, closed the Nation's Lakeside Trading Gas Stations and the Cayuga's Headquarters building.

Joe Heath, the attorney for the Unity Council says the Lakeside Trading Gas Station in Union Springs reopened Wednesday under Halftown's control.

Heath says the Unity Council is seeking to have its tribal law obeyed and has called on Halftown and his attorneys to provide some form of proof that he is, in fact, the federal representative for the Cayuga Nation. Heath says that Halftown has not provided such proof because he cannot obtain it from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Unity Council members are staying at the Seneca Falls store and Nation Headquarters on Route 89 around the clock to prevent Halftown from taking back control of the businesses.
_________________________
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/01/14 06:30 AM

http://auburnpub.com/news/local/updated-...1e25fa2039.html

Heath was at the Seneca Falls site on Wednesday afternoon, and said the situation had been peaceful but Unity Council members were concerned that Halftown's faction may try to move back in. He said the Unity Council was also exploring if it could re-open and operate the Seneca Falls store, and described the move to re-open the Union Springs store as a broken promise by Halftown.

He said there have been no substantive conversations toward a resolution between the Unity Council and Halftown's group.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/02/14 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: kyle585
The Union Springs scene is now secured, with the sides agreeing to have the building locked until an agreement could be reached. Gould said he was contacted by the Unity Council Sunday night about their intentions to move in with paperwork that they say gives them control. The sheriff arranged a meeting with leaders of both sides at 6 a.m. Monday, and it appeared they had come to an understanding. About an hour later, though, fighting broke out and 911 was contacted. Heath said one member of the Unity Council was taken to the hospital with an injury.
This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?
And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?
I notice you have no further comments on the current Indian vs Indian battle. They must leave you and Teonan completely befuddled. grin

**********************************************************************************

4/30/2014 1:43:15 PM
By Greg Cotterill, Fred von Wiegen and Joe Nittler

UPDATE: 5:30am 05/01/14

Tensions remain high as the Cayuga Nation struggles to resolve a standoff between the Nation's Unity Council and Clint Halftown. This week that struggle boiled over when the Unity Council, claiming that workers were being abused under Halftown's leadership, closed the Nation's Lakeside Trading Gas Stations and the Cayuga's Headquarters building.

Joe Heath, the attorney for the Unity Council says the Lakeside Trading Gas Station in Union Springs reopened Wednesday under Halftown's control.

Heath says the Unity Council is seeking to have its tribal law obeyed and has called on Halftown and his attorneys to provide some form of proof that he is, in fact, the federal representative for the Cayuga Nation. Heath says that Halftown has not provided such proof because he cannot obtain it from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Unity Council members are staying at the Seneca Falls store and Nation Headquarters on Route 89 around the clock to prevent Halftown from taking back control of the businesses.
_________________________
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 05:32 AM

Posted: Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:30 am

By DAVID L. SHAW dshaw@fltimes.com

SENECA FALLS — Maybe it was inevitable, but the Cayuga Indian Nation leadership dispute is heading to court.

Two courts, actually.

Acting state Supreme Court judges in Seneca and Cayuga counties have signed show cause orders submitted by lawyers for current tribal leader Clint Halftown and his supporters.

The orders were signed by Cayuga County Judge Thomas Leone and Seneca County Judge Dennis Bender.

The orders seek to have the Unity Council leaders who oppose Halftown and have taken physical control of the Nation’s administrative office building and Lakeside Trading gas station/store in Seneca Falls to vacate the premises and return any property taken.

Lawyers for both sides will argue the matter before Leone at 10 a.m. May 20 in Auburn and before Bender at 10 a.m. May 16 in Waterloo.

Lawyers for the Unity Council will have to argue why the order should not be enforced.

The order:

• Requires the defendants, agents, servants, employees or any person acting in concert with them to not possess interest in any Cayuga Nation properties in the two counties.

• Preliminarily compels the defendants and supporters from taking actions to disrupt the commercial activities of the Cayuga Nation or affiliates in the two counties.

The Unity Council has been ordered to comply with the order until the court arguments are heard and the court makes decisions.

“[Last] week, a small group of disaffected individuals illegally broke into some of the Nation’s facilities as part of an effort to undermine the Cayuga leadership,’’ Halftown said in a written statement. “Yesterday’s court rulings restore order at the Nation’s properties, and we look forward to moving past this unfortunate set of incidents and continuing to serve our customers across the region”

Both Lakeside Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls were closed briefly but have since reopened.

Halftown ordered the reopening of the Union Springs stores Tuesday, while the Unity Council reopened the Seneca Falls store and took control of the office in Seneca Falls Wednesday.

“We’ve been told this is like an eviction. They have to provide legal service of papers on the defendants before they can move to the next stage,’’ said Justin Bennett, a Unity Council member.

He said the Unity Council is not moving out of the administration building and still controls the Seneca Falls property.

On Saturday, he said Unity Council members and supporters were relaxing after a week of “hectic’’ events.

The Unity Council claims they used tribal law and procedures to oust Halftown and supporters Tim Twoguns and Gary Wheeler from power and replace them with new leadership.

Halftown says he is still the recognized federal representative in the eyes of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 05:36 AM

A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time? Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years! Only now it is costing the USA money as they use our courts!
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time? Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years! Only now it is costing the USA money as they use our courts!

1) One poster in particular, likes to put words in the mouths of others.

2) Oh, Really?... WHERE?

3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time? Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years! Only now it is costing the USA money as they use our courts!

1) One poster in particular, likes to put words in the mouths of others.
That is me as I desperately try to get you to say something meaningful on the topic but you refuse to do so.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time? Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years! Only now it is costing the USA money as they use our courts!

2) Oh, Really?... WHERE?
I wasn't talking about you here. This is mostly the uneducated in Seneca County.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 01:39 PM

Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"


"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"


What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 01:57 PM

Quote:
A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time?


And many have said that it's the other way around.

Quote:
Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years!


Or longer. All of the articles are very interesting, but the one on Kennewick Man, and the other find mentioned, pertains the most to the commonly accepted, for maybe 100 years, theory that humans have been in the Americas for around 10-12,000 years. That theory has come under pressure from many directions in recent years, as have the notions that humans crossed the Bering land bridge, only, and that all immigration was from the west:

http://ancientamerica.com/
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 02:15 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"


"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"
What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.
Exactly. Idiotic questions are Timbo's specialty.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 02:16 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time?
And many have said that it's the other way around.

Quote:
Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years!
Or longer:

http://ancientamerica.com/
Thanks for your comments VM Smith.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
I see you have been back on for two hours but didn't answer this. You make the most outlandish statments and can't back them up. I don't know how anyone would believe anything you say on the subject of Indians, Native Americans, or indigenous people or whatever you call them.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"

"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"

What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.

Rendered so, only because they have not been denied their rights to their full, rightful sovereignty and self determination. A point which which renders any other similar arguments completely meaningless and entirely without merit.

If you're going to equate, then equate.

I stand by my original statement now more than ever, especially in light of your own unintentional bolstering of my very argument.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
I see you have been back on for two hours but didn't answer this. You make the most outlandish statments and can't back them up. I don't know how anyone would believe anything you say on the subject of Indians, Native Americans, or indigenous people or whatever you call them.
Well it is obvious you put this in your too hard box like most every other statement you make on here.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"

"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"
What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.
Rendered so, only because they have not been denied their rights to their full, rightful sovereignty and self determination.
And just how do you propose we give these rights to tiny postage size nations within the boundaries of the USA?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
No it can't.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"

"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"
What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.
Rendered so, only because they have not been denied their rights to their full, rightful sovereignty and self determination.
And just how do you propose we give these rights to tiny postage size nations within the boundaries of the USA?

And why do you suppose it is that they are now "postage stamp" sized, as you so dismissively refer to them?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"

"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"

What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.

Rendered so, only because they have not been denied their rights to their full, rightful sovereignty and self determination. A point which which renders any other similar arguments completely meaningless and entirely without merit.

If you're going to equate, then equate.

I stand by my original statement now more than ever, especially in light of your own unintentional bolstering of my very argument.
Point being is that they aren't sovereign, which you acknowledge yourself in this post.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
"This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?"

"And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?"

What an idiotic question! What outside help does Timbo imagine is keeping the peace among dissenting factions in Switzerland? Russia? China? Japan? India? America? Etc., etc., etc.? Have I missed some news? Are there UN peace keeping troops or foreign police in Washington DC, or Moscow?

Except in some weird, alternate reality, those sovereign nations are keeping the peace using internal forces, not outside help.

Rendered so, only because they have not been denied their rights to their full, rightful sovereignty and self determination. A point which which renders any other similar arguments completely meaningless and entirely without merit.

If you're going to equate, then equate.

I stand by my original statement now more than ever, especially in light of your own unintentional bolstering of my very argument.
Point being is that they aren't sovereign, which you acknowledge yourself in this post.

I acknowledge no such thing.

The point being, is that there still remains an intensely concerted efforts by many forces (ONU/UCE/CERA/CERF et al) to deny them their inalienable rights to that sovereignty.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/04/14 11:56 PM

There are three sovereigns in the Constitution and tribes are not one of them. The inalienable rights are those of the individual people. As usual, you get confused.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 12:05 AM

Timfusion...and It says It's going to stick by it. Down the rabbit hole, with conviction! laugh
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
There are three sovereigns in the Constitution and tribes are not one of them. The inalienable rights are those of the individual people. As usual, you get confused.

Perhaps I am confused.

I'm not aware of any Indians having signed the Constitution.

Please, tell us all about it. smirk
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Point being is that they aren't sovereign, which you acknowledge yourself in this post.

I acknowledge no such thing.

The point being, is that there still remains an intensely concerted efforts by many forces (ONU/UCE/CERA/CERF et al) to deny them their inalienable rights to that sovereignty.
Then where do you get the impression tribes have inalienable rights? It was your story and a hoot of a one at that.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
And just how do you propose we give these rights to tiny postage size nations within the boundaries of the USA?
And why do you suppose it is that they are now "postage stamp" sized, as you so dismissively refer to them?
I didn't realize I was going to have to give you a history lesson but here goes. Throughout the history of mankind, some groups of people, be they called, tribes, countries, nations, etc. have conquered other peoples. That happened to the Native peoples of the western hemisphere when people of the rest of the world discovered the earth was not flat. Over 20 new countries were formed in the western Hemisphere over hundreds of years the most prominent by far is the USA. The Native Americans were not able to hold onto any of the western Hemisphere in their own right. You "claim" to have proudly served in the US Navy. So I am surprised you are not educated enough to know all of this history! The USA created areas in their new country which were called reservations for those Native people to live on if they didn't want to fully integrate into the USA culture. I used the term postage stamp size because I have seen this term used before to refer to very tiny countries.

So what do you propose that we do now in the year 2014 and beyond to change the status quo? Should we give all of the USA back to the Native Americans? Oops, I can't suggest that to you because that would be putting words in your mouth. Well if I don't put words in your mouth nothing comes out with a suggested solution to the status quo! Why I still bother to debate this with you I do not understand.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
No it can't.
Rich, it totally flabbergasts me that he can make such a bold statement and not give me one example of it when I ask! Does he think we would accept such a statement at face value? What a strange thought process he must have to think he can state such a total fabrication and think no one would challenge it.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 04:50 AM

Quote:
Why I still bother to debate this with you I do not understand.


I don't, either. It is waste of time to try to discuss anything with It.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point being, is that there still remains an intensely concerted efforts by many forces (ONU/UCE/CERA/CERF et al) to deny them their inalienable rights to that sovereignty.
If they get their sovereignty what area would it apply to? I assume they would have some land area that would be theirs?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sovereignty

ov·er·eign·ty

noun \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən-tē, -vərn-tē also ˈsə-\

: unlimited power over a country

: a country's independent authority and the right to govern itself

**********************************************************

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sovereignty/

Sovereignty, though its meanings have varied across history, also has a core meaning, supreme authority within a territory.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
And just how do you propose we give these rights to tiny postage size nations within the boundaries of the USA?
And why do you suppose it is that they are now "postage stamp" sized, as you so dismissively refer to them?
I didn't realize I was going to have to give you a history lesson but here goes. Throughout the history of mankind, some groups of people, be they called, tribes, countries, nations, etc. have conquered other peoples. That happened to the Native peoples of the western hemisphere when people of the rest of the world discovered the earth was not flat. Over 20 new countries were formed in the western Hemisphere over hundreds of years the most prominent by far is the USA. The Native Americans were not able to hold onto any of the western Hemisphere in their own right. You "claim" to have proudly served in the US Navy. So I am surprised you are not educated enough to know all of this history! The USA created areas in their new country which were called reservations for those Native people to live on if they didn't want to fully integrate into the USA culture. I used the term postage stamp size because I have seen this term used before to refer to very tiny countries.

So what do you propose that we do now in the year 2014 and beyond to change the status quo? Should we give all of the USA back to the Native Americans? Oops, I can't suggest that to you because that would be putting words in your mouth. Well if I don't put words in your mouth nothing comes out with a suggested solution to the status quo! Why I still bother to debate this with you I do not understand.

In order to help you understand...

First of all, I didn't say that I proudly served in the US Navy. I said, I was proud to have served honorably in the US Navy. They are distinctly separate statements with entirely different meanings. The fact that you can not claim as much, shows that you haven't earned the right to bring up the issue of me having volunteered my service to this country, only so that you might further your personal insults.

But, as anyone who follows your posts is keenly aware, you are utterly incapable of quoting others accurately. Why should anyone expect anything less from someone whom, when arguments fail, engages in the most base of character assassinations, right?

Secondly, I'd strongly suggest that you reign in your ego when it comes to matters of history. You and your other playmates need to do a little more research into the little matter of national Indian sovereignty and the US government. I'll leave you with some homework, so that you might come up to speed on the subject.

Research the following:
* Continental Congress.
* Articles of Confederation.
* US Constitution (Articles I and VI).
* 14th Amendment (ratified 1868).
* 1st United States Congress (Dept. of War).
* Indian voting rights (1924).
* "Legal" basis for the Doctrine of Discovery.
* Legal Definition "Treaty".

If any of you self-appointed "historians" are half as smart as you believe that you are, I'm sure you'll have no problems, ascertaining their mutual interconnectedness.

Good luck. wink
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 03:30 PM

That is very good. Unfortunately you do not comprehend any of them. You cannot even connect one dot to itself. Your generalizations of BS mean nothing and do not apply to NY.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
That is very good. Unfortunately you do not comprehend any of them. You cannot even connect one dot to itself. Your generalizations of BS mean nothing and do not apply to NY.

And yet I'm not the one drawing a blank on the answer, even after having it handed to me, wrapped in a bow.

So much for your superior powers of observation and comprehension. smirk

If it applies to the US Federal Government, you can bet your @ss that it applies equally to NY State. Such ignorant statements by you, only confirm your pathological "need" to be correct all the time, even at the cost of the facts in general and more specifically to the laws which you cite as a basis for your protean arguments.
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 04:23 PM

Always generalizations taken from google searches, no clue about native Americans in N.Y. or anywhere else for that matter, needs to leave Timboland, step away from the computer and join the real world.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Always generalizations taken from google searches, no clue about native Americans in N.Y. or anywhere else for that matter, needs to leave Timboland, step away from the computer and join the real world.

Then enlighten us with your expansive knowledge of the many ways in which New York law usurps Federal law. grin
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Secondly, I'd strongly suggest that you reign in your ego when it comes to matters of history. You and your other playmates need to do a little more research into the little matter of national Indian sovereignty and the US government. I'll leave you with some homework, so that you might come up to speed on the subject.

Research the following:
* Continental Congress.
* Articles of Confederation.
* US Constitution (Articles I and VI).
* 14th Amendment (ratified 1868).
* 1st United States Congress (Dept. of War).

* Indian voting rights (1924).
* "Legal" basis for the Doctrine of Discovery.
* Legal Definition "Treaty".


If any of you self-appointed "historians" are half as smart as you believe that you are, I'm sure you'll have no problems, ascertaining their mutual interconnectedness.

Good luck. wink


since when is the queen voted into office?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Then enlighten us with your expansive knowledge of the many ways in which New York law usurps Federal law. grin


tell us why halftown has not called in the prez to rescue him...

yawn...
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
No it can't.
Rich, it totally flabbergasts me that he can make such a bold statement and not give me one example of it when I ask! Does he think we would accept such a statement at face value? What a strange thought process he must have to think he can state such a total fabrication and think no one would challenge it.
Your lack of being able to provide even one example proves you have been caught in a big fat lie Timbo. What a piece of work you are.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Always generalizations taken from google searches, no clue about native Americans in N.Y. or anywhere else for that matter, needs to leave Timboland, step away from the computer and join the real world.

Then enlighten us with your expansive knowledge of the many ways in which New York law usurps Federal law. grin

We're still waiting for your answer.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
It doesn't take any imagination at all to come up with the answer, Zero dollars. I have never seen anyone as full of BS as you.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
I have never seen anyone as full of BS as you.

Try a mirror. wink
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
We're still waiting for your answer.
Yes I am still waiting for your answer.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Try a mirror. wink
What a liar you are. It is beyond belief.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 07:16 PM


And yet, you continue to relentlessly engage me in your fevered obsession.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

And yet, you continue to relentlessly engage me in your fevered obsession.
And yet you refuse to either answer a straight forward question or admit you don't have a clue to what you were talking about.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 07:24 PM


I simply refuse to answer it... again.

Now go away.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

I simply refuse to answer it... again.

Now go away.
You never answered it once you lying hypocrite. You just posted it yesterday at 1:28 PM. That statement more than anything else you have said shows me your true colors.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 08:02 PM

"We're still waiting..."? LOLOLOLOL! The old collectivist posse crutch...the appeal to the mob, as always, but I think they wised up to him and split. Who wants to ride with a BSer? I think that if he looks behind for a posse, his mom is the only person he'll see.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
That is very good. Unfortunately you do not comprehend any of them. You cannot even connect one dot to itself. Your generalizations of BS mean nothing and do not apply to NY.

And yet I'm not the one drawing a blank on the answer, even after having it handed to me, wrapped in a bow.

So much for your superior powers of observation and comprehension. smirk

If it applies to the US Federal Government, you can bet your @ss that it applies equally to NY State. Such ignorant statements by you, only confirm your pathological "need" to be correct all the time, even at the cost of the facts in general and more specifically to the laws which you cite as a basis for your protean arguments.
Well Bimbo, for an it which already lost over three discussions regarding NYS, you obviously learned nothing.

There are no federal reservations and no federal jurisdiction over any New York tribes. Many never even got federal recognition.

You have not got a clue, not got a fact, you lie repeatedly and your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance. You are indeed a lonely pathetic waste of time and space. I shall not waste another minute of time or forum space replying to a waste of time and space. Take your arguments to the UN, which you claim is superior to the US Constitution. LOL smile
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 08:45 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140504/NEWS/140509734/10287/NEWS

Oneida County, Oneida Nation explore law enforcement agreement


The Oneida County Sheriff's Office and the Oneida Indian Nation Police are moving forward with plans to give Nation officers the ability to investigate crimes, arrest suspects and bring cases to court.

Elizabeth Cooper
Posted May. 4, 2014 @ 8:00 pm

The Oneida County Sheriff's Office and the Oneida Indian Nation Police are moving forward with plans to give Nation officers the ability to investigate crimes, arrest suspects and bring cases to court. The move is part of the historic agreement reached last year among the Nation, the state and the counties of Oneida and Madison.

Because of delays in the agreement's approval by the courts, the cross-deputization between Nation police and sheriff's deputies hasn't yet gone into effect, and so far there is no official start date.

[Note: Judge Kahn included the agreement between Halbritter and Halftown in the Oneida settlement based on an alleged ruling by the BIA in favor of Halftown's appeal against the BIA ruling the Unity Council to be the government. You would think the BIA would have notified the Unity Council and Halftown does not seem to have any proof. With both Cayuga factions going to court locally in State Court to decide, Judge Kahn better have proof or the Oneida Settlement is null and void. ]

Nonetheless, leaders from the two organizations are hammering out the details.

"There will be a signed agreement on the actual details of how it will work," said Oneida County Undersheriff Robert Swenzkowski.

The Nation declined to comment, and Madison County Sheriff Allen Riley said his county is not entering into an agreement.

So far, here’s what’s clear:

The deputization would relate primarily to Nation officers' duties on Nation lands. Currently, the officers are unable to make arrests, complete investigations or bring suspects to court, even if the incident is on Nation land. They only can detain a suspect involved in an incident on Nation land until sheriff's deputies or state troopers arrive. [Note: because they are not sovereign and it is not a reservation. ]

They can investigate and arrest suspects in crimes committed by Nation members against Nation members on Nation land. Those cases are brought to a tribal court.

The agreement would not allow Nation police to investigate crimes or individuals not related to the Nation. They also could not set up a speed trap or traffic or vehicle check on non-Nation land, Swenzkowski said.

The Nation force consists mostly of retired officers from area agencies, including the Sheriff's Office. Anyone cross-deputized must have police officer certification from the state Department of Criminal Justice Services, Swenzkowski said.

The Oneida County Sheriff will be able to revoke the cross-deputization of any individual Nation officer, or the entire force, Swenzkowski said.

This isn't the first time Nation police have been deputized in Oneida County. For several years the 1990s, a similar agreement was in place. Opinions about how successful it was vary.

"The sheriff had no control over the Indian police," said former Republican Assemblyman David Townsend. "They only answer to one person." Townsend was referring to Nation Representative and CEO Ray Halbritter.

But former Undersheriff Peter Paravati said that wasn't the case.

"The sheriff and I enjoyed a long and cooperative association with the Oneida Indian Nation Police," he said. "The decision to sever ties was a political decision made by the county legislature at the time."
[Note: Peter either lies or was totally unaware of the tribal police activities which were made clear to the county legislature. ]
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Take your arguments to the UN, which you claim is superior to the US Constitution. LOL smile

Except, that I NEVER made such an idiotic claim. Rather, I stated as FACT that ALL US treaties are equally as binding as the US Constitution itself. And they most incontrovertibly are so.

Laws & Treaties - International Agreements

The remainder of your previous assertions are as equally "nonfactual", as that intentional distortion of my actual words clearly was.

Your ever increasing propensity for insipid, childish personal insults, serves only to reenforce the mounting evidence which suggests that you are becoming progressively more defensive, the longer you continue to propagate your disinformation campaign against Native Americans and the unabridged historical record surrounding them.

Your deceptions grow more transparent and your chickens are inevitably coming home to roost.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 10:20 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
"We're still waiting..."? LOLOLOLOL! The old collectivist posse crutch...the appeal to the mob, as always, but I think they wised up to him and split. Who wants to ride with a BSer? I think that if he looks behind for a posse, his mom is the only person he'll see.

As usual, Smitty... how so very scholarly of you. sleep
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/05/14 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I have never seen anyone as full of BS as you.
Try a mirror. wink
What a liar you are. It is beyond belief.

Should I take that to mean that you don't own a mirror, or that you don't like what you see in it? smirk
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:02 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
No it can't.
Rich, it totally flabbergasts me that he can make such a bold statement and not give me one example of it when I ask! Does he think we would accept such a statement at face value? What a strange thought process he must have to think he can state such a total fabrication and think no one would challenge it.
bump
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 08:58 AM

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=timbo&defid=4013033
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your deceptions grow more transparent and your chickens are inevitably coming home to roost.
How will we know when someone wins or loses? You refuse to define what that means to you.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 11:58 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your deceptions grow more transparent and your chickens are inevitably coming home to roost.
How will we know when someone wins or loses? You refuse to define what that means to you.

You act as if it has to be a zero-sum game.

It doesn't.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your deceptions grow more transparent and your chickens are inevitably coming home to roost.
How will we know when someone wins or loses? You refuse to define what that means to you.
You act as if it has to be a zero-sum game.

It doesn't.
OK fine. Then please explain it as you see it.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 12:38 PM

Exactly. It will deny making posts such as it did in backing up the Onondaga land claim followed by other factoids which are also false. Hissy fits are common with things like that. A man could admit when he was wrong. I find it humorous that it would be so affected by my posts that it would attempt to berate Tennessee after I moved. It obviously has developed a personal vendetta having nothing to do with the issues in the threads. Revealing the real truths was just too much for it. It definitely has mental issues which should prohibit it from ever getting a pistol permit or owning guns like those in the SAFE Act, which does not apply to me. It feeds off attention to its lies and I will no longer feed it.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 01:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Exactly. It will deny making posts such as it did in backing up the Onondaga land claim followed by other factoids which are also false. Hissy fits are common with things like that. A man could admit when he was wrong. I find it humorous that it would be so affected by my posts that it would attempt to berate Tennessee after I moved. It obviously has developed a personal vendetta having nothing to do with the issues in the threads. Revealing the real truths was just too much for it. It definitely has mental issues which should prohibit it from ever getting a pistol permit or owning guns like those in the SAFE Act, which does not apply to me. It feeds off attention to its lies and I will no longer feed it.

Interesting to observe your inability to resist your urges to "de-person" individuals that you disagree with.

Precisely in the same way that you do with Native Americans and Homosexuals.

You're a real charmen, you are.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your deceptions grow more transparent and your chickens are inevitably coming home to roost.
How will we know when someone wins or loses? You refuse to define what that means to you.
You act as if it has to be a zero-sum game.

It doesn't.
OK fine. Then please explain it as you see it.
I am waiting for your explanation.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 04:45 PM


Enjoy the wait.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Enjoy the wait.
Yes waiting for you to explain anything is an exercise in futility. This is all a big joke to you isn't it?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 06:27 PM


On the contrary, this is a most important issue. One that revolves around hundreds of years of ongoing persecution of two entire continents of indigenous peoples.

I think it is your sincerity, that is a joke.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

On the contrary, this is a most important issue. One that revolves around hundreds of years of ongoing persecution of two entire continents of indigenous peoples.

I think it is your sincerity, that is a joke.
And you know I am not sincere how?

The problem is that you refuse to say what should be done about hundreds of years of persecution. Ongoing? I hardly think so.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
3) Imagine how much money it's cost Indian groups to fight the continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal Governments.
continually unjust actions by corporations, individuals, and the State and Federal government? OMG. Wow. Give me just one example of something that is happening that is unjust to them in the year 2014. You can't, can you?
If it was ongoing you would be able to answer this question but you don't seem to be able to. That makes you a total BS'er and a fraud. That is my sincere belief.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:19 PM

It never will. It feeds off your responses.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:24 PM

http://www.wwnytv.com/news/local/County-Towns-Could-Get-Millions-In-Mohawk-Settlement-258109101.html
County, Towns Could Get Millions In Mohawk Settlement

St. Lawrence County and the towns of Massena and Brasher could receive a "significant" amount of money as part of a proposed land claim settlement between the state and the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe.

7 News has learned a deal is close and could be announced in Albany as early as Wednesday.

Details of the settlement have not been released, but could involve millions of dollars.

Sources tell 7 News the agreement would provide the county with a lump sum payment, plus annual payments that would be shared with towns in the affected area.

Sources also say details aren't final and the situation remains "delicate."

[Note: they weren't final when Cuomo threatened the Oneida and Madison county legislators to approve it or pay for the lawsuits on their own.]

Legislative chair Jonathan Putney and Brasher legislator Tony Arquiette are expected to be in Albany Wednesday to finalize details of the settlement with Gov. Andrew Cuomo.

[Beware of settlements that are with the wrong tribal government. The Mohawk have three.]


http://romesentinel.com/county/oneidas-make-first-payment-of-4m/QBqnee!LlbCR2O7ZD9BOXUaxuCyBA/
Oneidas make first payment of $4M

The state received nearly $4 million as its first-ever quarterly share of gaming machine revenues from the Oneida Indian Nation's casino — and a portion of this money will flow to Oneida County shortly.

Sending 25 percent of the net revenue from Turning Stone Resort Casino slots to Albany was a cornerstone of the broad settlement reached last year by the state, tribe, and Oneida and Madison counties.

The state, in turn, is sharing the money with the two counties. The agreement sought to end a number of tax, trust land and other divisive issues involving the nation and its businesses. The deal marks the first time the Oneidas shared casino revenue with the state —falling in line with other Indian casinos around the state.

Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr. said the amount covers a little less than a month, March 4 to 31, because the agreement did not take effect until early March following its approval by a federal judge. The county official been a strong supporter of the agreement since it first surfaced nearly a year ago.

[So in less than a month the suckers at Turning Stone have lost over $16 million dollars just on the slot machines. Oddly they only tell you about their winnings. ]
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[So in less than a month the suckers at Turning Stone have lost over $16 million dollars just on the slot machines. Oddly they only tell you about their winnings. ]
That is how suckers operate for sure.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
It never will. It feeds off your responses.
You are certainly right Rich. He is a real bottom feeder. He has got carp beat. whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 10:32 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
It never will. It feeds off your responses.
You are certainly right Rich. He is a real bottom feeder. He has got carp beat. whistle

My, how the Mighty have fallen.

You two are quite the pair.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 10:44 PM

Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Huh... I always imagined you to be taller.

Though, not by much.
laugh
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/06/14 11:36 PM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/07/14 06:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Yet none of your weaselly arguments changes the fact that genocide was indeed committed upon American Indians and nations world-over still continue to offer reparations AND remedies to tyrannized indigenous natives.


if that is true then you would not have so much time to spend on the internet

instead of spending a few hours of your time 'voluntering' you would need to spend every second of your entire life 'volunteering' for the geneocide you caused
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/07/14 02:44 PM

The only genocide caused in NY was by the Iroquois. But it does not wish to prosecute them.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/07/14 02:50 PM

Quote:
you would need to spend every second of your entire life 'volunteering'


He's got a lot of time...things are pretty slow on some of those Western reservations. He probably only volunteers to make a beer run.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/07/14 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The only genocide caused in NY was by the Iroquois.


You're a bald-faced liar Richie.

Colonization's fiendish and despicable acts of kidnapping, coercion and removal are clearly genocidal.


The Indian Schools movement has been described in David Wallace Adams’ Education for Extinction as “the last great Indian war ... waged against children”.


The first boarding school that was not located on a reservation was in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Almost 2000 Iroquois children (mostly Seneca, Oneida, and Mohawk) attended Carlisle Indian Industrial School during its 40 years of operation.




“Civilization from Savagery”: Amerika’s Indian Schools and Cultural Genocide

John Connor
From Green Anarchist Issue 68–69, Summer 2003


Confining the indigenous peoples of south-western Amerika — notably Geronimo’s refusenik Apaches — to reservations took a quarter of the (admittedly small) US army decades. One of those responsible, Lt. Richard Henry Pratt felt a more efficient method of controlling these rebellious native Americans was to indoctrinate them in “the knowledge, values and mores of Christian civilization”, a process he started on Apache prisoners of war held at St Augustine, Florida in the 1875. Challenged by President Hayes that his time might be better spent in the (killing) field, Pratt responded: “Here a Lieutenant struggles to evolve order out of the chaos of fourteen different languages. Civilization out of savagery! Industry and thrift out of laziness! Education out of ignorance! Cleanliness out of filth!”

As US Indian Commissioner Thomas Morgan observed in 1882: “It cost $1 million to kill an Indian in battle, but $1,200 for eight years of schooling.” After three years at St Augustine, Pratt was given a facility of his own, Hampton Normal and Industrial Institute, and the year following that disused barracks at Carlisle, Pennsylvania. As early as 1870, Congress cleared $100,000 to allow churches and missionary societies to run schools for the Indians on reservations.

Towards the Total Institution

What Pratt did — in line with European mass education theory at that time — was to create the Indian School as a total institution in the Foucauldian sense.

Firstly, he shifted his focus from adult Prisoners of War to their children, judged more vulnerable. Secondly, feeling ‘home influences’ encouraged them to hang on to their culture, the children were transported thousands of miles from the reservation by train (and later Greyhound coach) and boarded at Carlisle in order to disorientate and isolate them. Thirdly, Carlisle had an extreme emphasis on order and military discipline, each child being issued a uniform, taught to drill and subjected to severe rules.

Parents refusing to send children to Indian School could have rations withheld by the reservation authorities or the children physically seized from them. They had little idea where they were going or the fate that awaited them on arrival — possibly even death in light of past experiences at the hands of Civilisation. On arrival, their clothes and travel bags were burned, and they were given regulation European clothes. Their hair — considered sacred in many native American societies — was shorn had their “unpronounceable” Indian name replaced with a European one and a number. One woman described her experience:

“When you first started school, they looked at you, guessed how old you were, set your birth date and gave you an age. Then they assigned you a Christian name. Mine turned out to be...Fred.

English was the only permitted language. Children caught speaking their own language or failing to understand orders in English were punished with beatings or being forced to eat soap or kneel for hours on bare floor-boards. They were only permitted to return home for short periods once or twice a year and those attempting to run away had bounties offered to recover them. Some died trying, others of epidemics that swept such schools — over a hundred received Christian (not traditional) burials at Carlisle alone. Pratt boasted “each school has its own disciplinary cell”. Children were often chained there. They were considered “savages” to be “broken” in spirit like wild animals in need of domestication, though obviously it was Carlisle’s inculcation of Civilisation that was ‘savage’ (vicious) in its own terms. The emphasis on discipline and order even extended to Carlisle’s grounds:

The land was tamed, controlled and conquered and mirrored the process outlined and established to deal with the students, all an expression of the power of the white man... Never think for one minute that the Native children attending these schools were not at every turn reminded of their lesser status in comparison with white society.

Lessons Taught

So what — beyond a sense of inferiority — were the children taught? The young men spent even more time labouring than marching and the young women were taught how to do domestic chores. They were farmed out to local “Christian” families, supposedly to learn from their “Civilized” example but also to augment the School’s income. Implicitly, they were also being taught servile, dependant roles, particularly inappropriate for the young women given their power in their own societies as compared to their European sisters. What they also learned was brutalisation. Vi Hilbert of the Upper Skagit tribe remembers her time at an Indian School in Oregon, c. 1930:

[G]irls had to walk the gauntlet and get the backs of their legs switched [with belts, sticks or hairbrushes]. And if the switcher was too light on the switch, they had to do it hard. These girls had legs that were swollen three times their size.

As well as forcing them to beat each other, women graduating from these schools were sometimes made matrons, visiting their own brutalizing experience on others. Another side of the emotional trauma caused by education in such total institutions was an inability to express themselves. Oglala Sioux Ida Amiotte remembers:

My children always asked me ‘Why are you so cold? Why don’t you hug us?’ I said ‘I never learned how’.

In this way, the damage was transmitted from one generation to the next, instead of the traditional culture that would otherwise have been transmitted. Indian School survivors also recognise ‘Boarding School Syndrome’ of confusion and sudden rage, often suicidal.

When John Thomas, a Pima, shot himself in 1896, Phoenix Indian School officials claimed “No reason for such act can be ascertained”. They may have been arrogant and unreflective enough to have actually believed it themselves.

Beyond individual deaths, there was intended the death of entire cultures, as organiser of the excellent Heard Museum exhibition on Indian Schools LaRee Bates unequivocally put it: “This was an American Holocaust”. This was borne as much of crude economics as crude racism:

A wild Indian requires a thousand acres to roam over, while an intelligent man will find a comfortable support for his family on a very small tract... Barbarism is costly, wasteful and extravagant. Intelligence pro-motes thrift and increases prosperity.

European cattle ranching was probably as extensive as Apache huntergathering, though unprofitable. By forcing the Apache to settle and their children to become economically dependant on the European economy, they became locatable and controllable. A loose social structure that prevented the formation of permanent hierarchies and excess accumulation of private property was replaced by the authoritarian and capitalist European way of doing things, near-equality replaced by servitude, spiritual and emotional wholeness by loss of identity and missionary cant.

The Civilizers Lost

The Indian Schools movement has been described in David Wallace Adams’ Education for Extinction as “the last great Indian war ... waged against children”. Vastly powerful and surprising is that — for all its casualties — the (accurately) self styled Civilisers lost.

Given the brutality, the humiliation, the sheer lack of loving welcome, the children didn’t want to adopt European culture. They secretly spoke their own languages, hid their medicine bundles. They longed for their short vacations home “when I speak Indian” and often tried to run away there across thousands of miles. In face of the spectacle of menial dependency, even European liberals like G Stanley Hall were arguing by the 1920s:

Why not make him a good Indian rather than a cheap imitation of the white man?

Come 1928, even the Indian Commission was inclined to agree. The Meriam Report condemned Indian Schools as both educationally and hygienically inadequate. Reforms were made in an attempt to save the system: uniforms and drill were phased out by the 1950s, outwork a decade later. By the 1960s, the federal government described Indian Schools as “deplorable” and they were turned over to native American administration, at the same time education radicals were demanding the teaching of Black history in mainstream schools.

Despite this, now only half a dozen such institutions survive in Amerika, most boarded up and awaiting redevelopment.

Graduation ceremonies at Carlisle ended with the triumphal acclamation that “the Indian in you is DEAD” but native American cultures live on and — in Amerika at least — it is Lt. Pratt’s dream that has truly died.


An excellent study on the subject from Tony Ward in PDF format; Strategies for Colonisation: The Structure of Genocide: The Case of the Iroquois Federation.
http://www.tonywardedu.com/critical-cult...uois-federation


Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/07/14 11:59 PM

The exterminated Neutral, Erie and Huron by the Iroquois in addition to multiple tribal cultures of the tribes they assimilated is true genocide. Indian schools were bad and I am not defending them, but hardly compares to the extermination by the tens of thousands slaughtered or starved to death in the Iroquois wars in the process of stealing the lands.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 12:52 AM

Lol...I wonder if they liked a side of fries with their finger-lickin' good meals.

Adoption or Entree

David Scheimann

Of all the North American Indian tribes, the seventeenth-century Iroquois are the most renowned for their cruelty towards other human beings. Scholars know that they ruthlessly tortured war prisoners and that they were cannibals; in the Algonquin tongue the word Mohawk actually means "flesh-eater." There is even a story that the Indians in neighboring Iroquois territory would flee their homes upon sight of just a small band of Mohawks. Ironically, the Iroquois were not alone in these practices. There is ample evidence that most, if not all, of the Indians of northeastern America engaged in cannibalism and torture—there is documentation of the Huron, Neutral, and Algonquin tribes each exhibiting the same behavior. This paper will examine these atrocities, search through several possible explanations, and ultimately reveal that the practices of cannibalism and torture in the Iroquois were actually related.

First a bit of background is necessary to understand the state of the Native American people before colonial exploration and settlement. The Iroquois were the dominant force in northeastern America until the Europeans came to the New World. Five smaller nations made up the League of the Iroquois: they were the Onondaga, Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga, and Seneca tribes. The legendary Hiawatha joined these five tribes together into a single powerful confederation after fierce blood feuds threatened to destroy all five nations. The date of the League’s formation could be any time between 900 AD and 1570; the confederation was certainly established before European settlers made first contact. Based upon Hiawatha’s plan, members of each nation could only marry members of other Iroquois nations; these blood ties formed a web of loyalties between the different tribes. This Iroquois League now began to dominate the rest of the Native American tribes in the northeast.

Most of what scholars know about the Iroquois comes from European accounts. Very little of this information is flattering. These negative views result because Europeans settling in North America first came to encounter the Huron, Naragansett, and Algonquin tribes, who were enemies to the Iroquois. These tribes had become oppressed by the Iroquois nations after they had formed their confederation; prior to the League these three tribes were actually the dominant tribes of Native Americans in the Northeast. Later, these tribes were also among the first to accept Catholicism, which added favor in the eyes of the French. When the Europeans accepted the friendship of these tribes, however, they accepted the enmity of the Iroquois as well.

It is also important to establish that the practices of the Iroquois were more than the exaggeration and hearsay of excitable Frenchmen. The Iroquois surely performed torture upon war captives; many European settlers viewed first-hand the mutilated body-parts of war captives. However, there has been some doubt in the current century that cannibalism was really practiced by the Iroquois. Anthropologist W. Arens proposed in 1979 that there were no first-hand accounts of flesh eating among the Native Americans, and thus no solid proof for cannibalism. This controversial view has been refuted since, for there is indeed ample evidence in The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents alone to prove Arens’s thesis wrong. With this assertion in mind, it is now possible to inquire why the Native Americans performed these appalling acts.

The death of family members had a profound psychological effect upon the Iroquois, thus they required strong measures to relieve themselves of sadness. Essentially, they felt that they needed restitution in some form or another for the dead relative. Grieving matriarchs petitioned the tribe’s warriors to retrieve captives from an offending tribe. The Iroquois warriors then established a raid solely to gather captives; scholars call this practice "mourning-wars." According to Anthony Wallace, the grieving Iroquois could find restitution in one of three ways. The first was for a warrior to bring back the scalp of an Indian from the killer’s tribe and to present it to the grieving person. Though the scalp represented a captive, live prisoners were preferred. The other two options involved a live captive: the Iroquois either vengefully tortured the prisoner to death or adopted him or her into the tribe. Since the Iroquois were a matriarchal society, the mourning woman would ultimately decide the fate of those captives that were brought to the village, mostly based upon the amount of grief that she felt for her dead relation.

Reverend Father Barthelemy Vimont presented a harrowing example of Iroquois torture that occurred in 1642 in The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents. In this account he told of an Iroquois war band that captured a small group of Algonquin and himself. Immediately the Iroquois cut off a few fingers from each captive using fish scales. The Iroquois intended to take the captives to their village. On the way one Algonquin woman, realizing what her fate would be, ran into a icy river and drowned herself rather than face the impending torture. Once they had arrived at their captors’ village, the Iroquois made their prisoners sing and dance upon a scaffold. Vimont’s companion, a converted Algonquin named Adrian, wouldn’t sing in the Iroquois’ language, and they slit his fingers lengthwise to cause him intense pain. Next they cleared the scaffold except for one Algonquin named Awessinipin, and they began burning his body with brands. The Iroquois forced an Algonquin woman to take a torch and burn Awessinipin and then killed her when she finally complied. Throughout this entire ordeal the Algonquin man showed no pain. They continued this torture throughout the night, building to a fervor, finally ending at sunrise by cutting his scalp open, forcing sand into the wound, and dragging his mutilated body around the camp. When they had finished, the Iroquois carved up and ate parts of his body.

[Hey...there's nothing quite like torturing and eating someone to dispell that sad feeling! This may explain why Timmy volunteers for the beer run...he's afraid that if he sticks around, his buds might just decide they're a little down, and want to hold a BBQ.]

The Jesuits Relations, The Explorations of Radisson, and Narrative of the Life of Mrs. Mary Jemison offer other detailed descriptions of Iroquois atrocities, but generally the torture followed the same pattern. First the victorious Iroquois warriors would mangle the prisoners’ hands; they did this by pulling out the captives’ fingernails and/or cutting off some of their fingers. The victors usually subjected the prisoners to a heavy beating at the same time. Thereafter the Iroquois took the captives to their village and subjected the men to the gantlet (or gauntlet). They then humbled those who survived in a number of ways; for example the Iroquois might strip them naked in front of the village and force them to sing and dance. This process always ended either in a slow death by fire and scalping or with adoption into the Iroquois village. The Iroquois tortured only men to death when they weren’t adopted; they either killed quickly women and children who were unadopted.

There are definitely reasons behind this torture that do not extend into metaphysical domains. The initial beating obviously broke the spirits of the captive and ensured submission. The act of battering prisoners to break their will is no isolated policy of the Iroquois alone, but of nearly every race throughout history. At this time the Iroquois also mangled a prisoner’s hands, a brutality performed so that the captive could no longer wield a weapon. After returning to their village, the Iroquois used the gantlet to further break the spirits of the captives and to serve as a test of endurance and physical tolerance. The Iroquois would execute without ceremony those captives who fell and did not get up, which indicates disdain for mental and physical weakness. Indeed, the Iroquois expected even those captives who underwent subsequent lethal torture to stand strong and not cry out—the warriors would disgustedly dispatch a captive who lost his composure. As the night went by and the prisoner remained silent, the entire tribe would become more and more frenzied until the sun came up and the prisoner was killed. Thus it seems that torturing captives to death was a ritualized act of vengeance that was truly fulfilled only when its objective (making the victim respond to the torture) failed!

The warriors were not the only ones who conducted the torture, however; the women and children of the village had just as much of an active role as the men did. While the captives were perched upon the scaffold, the children of the tribe would jab at the prisoner’s feet with knives. In addition to this, every person in the village took turns with the burning torches during the night ritual. In fact, the rest of the tribe would scorn anyone who did not partake in the torture as a weak and lazy individual. Because everyone took part, it becomes clear that besides being an act for grieving family members to vent their frustration on an unyielding victim and doing so feel avenged for the loved ones’ deaths, it was a reassertion of Iroquois dominance and power. Yet this second purpose seems of less importance considering the specialized nature of the mourning war. That is to say, the process of the mourning war is oriented far more towards the grieving matriarchs rather than the entire village.

This can be said partly because lethal torture was not always the fate of the captives. In fact, the grieving Iroquois more often than not adopted the captive into his or her family. Only when the captives were feeble, old, or unusually ugly, or the Iroquois matriarchs were particularly upset or felt they had suffered a great loss, then death by torture would be the guaranteed result. This stems from the belief that a clan or village lost power when its members died. The best way to maintain that power in the eyes of the Iroquois was to maintain the status quo by getting another individual to take the place of the slain family member. Only later when European diseases killed off huge numbers of Native Americans and tradition broke down did lethal torture become more frequent than adoption.

The Iroquois usually chose the captives who were adopted during their torture, specifically after they had run the gantlet or were suffering the humiliation stage. Pierre Radisson exemplifies this when his adopted Iroquois parents drag him by the hair from the gantlet in his second captivity. At first the practice of torturing a potential family member seems extraordinarily odd, but the Iroquois had a reason for this, too. When the Iroquois adopted a captive, the torture acted as a symbolic end to the captive’s old life. In theory, the captive rejoiced that his tormentors had saved his or her life and was happy to join the Iroquois. In practice, this did not always guarantee the adopted member’s loyalty. This is also demonstrated by Pierre Radisson when he was captured twice; though he even came to empathize with his new parents after his second capture, he still chose to escape when he had the opportunity. Yet a significant number of accounts do indicate that many captives, nearly all from other Native American tribes, did elect to stay with their new Iroquois families.

Though modern Americans do not associate other tribes with the practice of mourning wars, they performed the same methods of torture that the Iroquois did. These accounts are much less frequent than descriptions of Iroquois torture, nevertheless they do exist and are no less ruthless in nature. Samuel de Champlain’s notes contain accounts of the Algonquins, Montagnais, and Etechemins as the aggressors. After they captured a handful of Iroquois in battle, these "friendly" tribes proceeded to torture the captives to death. They burned the body of one captive Iroquois then poured water on him in cycles so that his flesh would fall off his body. When they had finally killed him and threw his innards into the river, the Indians told Champlain that this act was done in vengeance for their own mutilated tribesmen. There is mention in Relation des Hurons of the Neutrals and Hurons performing the same cruelties, and the Hurons are mentioned for taking captives to be adopted. Nevertheless there are no vastly different reasons that can be determined for the atrocities of the other northeastern tribes. All of these other tribes practiced torture as an act of vengeance for their own mutilated dead, and in some cases even performed similar adoption ceremonies.

But can a desire for vengeance be sufficient to explain Iroquois cannibalism? In nearly every instance the Iroquois ate parts of the bodies of war prisoners who had been tortured to death. In Father Vimont’s previous account it was the heart or other internal organs that were consumed as well as the hands and feet of the tortured prisoner. Another Jesuit gives this account: "having cut off (the captive’s) hands and feet, (the Iroquois) skinned him and separated the flesh from the bones, in order to make from it a detestable repast." Further accounts include multiple mentions of the cannibalistic "customary feasts" of the Iroquois. There is obviously more to this form of cannibalism than the necessity of consuming human flesh to stay alive in hard times. Vengeance alone does not provide an ample explanation for cannibalism like it does for torture, yet the two always occur together.

As previously mentioned, the Iroquois were not alone in this practice, as various accounts describe the Winnebagos, Huron, and other French-sympathizing Indians partaking in feasts of human flesh. In the aforementioned Champlain account, the Algonquins, Montagnais, and Etechemins did not actually eat the Iroquois captive’s flesh, but rather forced the other captives to eat his heart. Though this makes a case against cannibalistic practice, another account one year later tells of these same three tribes taking a quartered body home to be eaten. In another part of the country, a Neutral brave is recorded in Relation des Hurons saying to the Jesuit Father Brebeuf and his company, "[I’ve had] enough of the dark-colored flesh of our enemies…I wish to know the taste of white meat, and I will eat yours." In the same set of accounts the Jesuits chastise the Hurons to "eat no human flesh" so that they could be good Catholics.

There was also a form of cannibalism that occurred in another near-by tribe, which is now studied by psychologists and anthropologists. Occasionally members of the Algonquin tribe suffered from a particular psychosis in which the Indian believed himself or herself "possessed" by the Wendigo, an Indian demon. The affected Native American would crave human flesh and kill people in order to eat their bodies. Anthropologist, however, diagnose this as a strange mental disorder, and obviously not applicable to the Iroquois practice in any way. Nor has there been, from a historical viewpoint, any mention of the Wendigo in association with the Iroquois. It is also true that the Iroquois never ate the flesh of their own people. Though Wendigo Psychosis has no bearing to the Iroquois, examining another flesh-eating culture may provide a clue to their abominable acts.

The Aztecs are a perhaps the best known nation of people besides the Iroquois who possessed cannibalistic practices. High priests ritually sacrificed victims to their god Uitzilopochtli by removing the captive’s heart. When they had finished with the body they threw it down the steps of the sacred pyramid where it was taken and eaten by the citizens. Despite the association with religion, contemporary anthropologists have come to the conclusion that the act of cannibalism had less to do with the sacrificial ceremony and more with improper nutrition. Their practice results from a protein-deficient diet in which human beings are the only real source of meat. While there are instances of Native Americans resorting to cannibalism in very hard times, these northeastern Indians generally had no lack of meat, and since their cannibalism was limited to war prisoners, this reason is unlikely. This is not to say that cannibalism was never practiced for food by the Iroquois or their neighbors, just that it was definitely not the primary practice in the present context.

Bringing up the Aztecs, however, leads to another worthy point of examination: that the practice of cannibalism might have been religious in nature. There was indeed a single god of war, sun, and fire, who was present by various names in many of the northeastern Indian tribes. His name was Aireskoi and he required sacrifice and consumption of human flesh in his honor. There are some further links between him and the atrocities the Iroquois committed. In a particular act of torture recounted by a Jesuit, Father Brebeuf, the Iroquois set eleven bonfires around their captive and tortured him until sunrise, when Aireskoi could look upon their work. Though not usually referred to in such religious terms, the practice of torture did last the entire night in most accounts. The bulk of Iroquois lethal torture consisted of the use of flame upon the captive’s body, which is also indicative of Aireskoi’s domain (of course, fire was also excruciatingly painful and non-lethal in the way the Iroquois used it). Though these points begin to make a case that religious worship was the cause of northeastern Indian atrocities, there are no other accounts besides this one, written by a priest, that claim religious motivation for the cannibalism. Iroquois cannibalism generally occupies part of a torture routine, however, it is more akin to "brunch" than a Thanksgiving dinner.

Another religious figure that has cannibalistic associations is one of the creators of the earth, the Good Twin. While the Iroquois creation myth is too long and involved to be mentioned in detail here, what bears importance to this paper is that the Bad Twin killed the Sky-Mother when the two were born and blamed it on the Good Twin, who was expelled from Family. The Good Twin would wander the earth and help man when he could. In years that they predicted a famine, the Iroquois mystics would "see" the Good Twin holding withered ear of corn and eating a human leg. This suggests cannibalism might have begun as a result of famine, but once again the circumstances under which it was conducted and its association with mourning raids had little to do with starvation. Instead the existence of this imagery certainly proves that this practice had been around for a long time in Iroquois history.

There is one more possibility dealing with supernatural beliefs that needs to be considered. All of the Indian tribes believe that every object, animate or inanimate, has a spirit. Even rocks and old bones as well as living shamans can possess supernatural abilities and magical powers. An interesting example of this belief is the story of Arent Van Corlaer, a Dutch colonist. There was a particular rock in Lake George that the Iroquois believed held a spirit, and they would offer tobacco to it each time they passed. Van Corlaer, while on a trip with the Mohawks, mocked this tribute to the rock, and mooned it. Shortly afterwards, a storm blew up and capsized his boat, killing the Van Arent. Other similar stories can be found in Iroquois folklore.

The Iroquois also hold the belief that to eat a thing is to gain its power. This follows naturally from the previous view, because even in death the body’s remains keep at least part of its soul. This is most apparent in the everyday diet of the Native Americans. For example, the people of the river villages Akweasne and Kahnawake were known to be excellent swimmers, and this was reputedly caused by the large amount of fish in their diets. A hunter’s talent was also supposed to depend upon the amount of game that he consumed (which only makes sense because the better hunter would be able to acquire and thus consume more game).

With these two premises, it follows that devouring the flesh of a great warrior would transfer his prowess into the one doing the eating. There is no mention that the Iroquois ate the flesh of those captives who did not die ceremoniously; perhaps these "weak" prisoners were considered unworthy to be eaten. There is also no mention that the Iroquois ate the flesh of anyone who was not tortured to death; those people who did not have had a chance to prove themselves. Yet like the previous spiritual explanation, only one account exists that establishes a link between great warriors and the humans they eat. A Huron Indian who escaped Iroquois captivity described how a Jesuit was killed and eaten. The priest had endured great pain before his death, and the Iroquois told the Huron that they drank his blood and ate his flesh so that they could be as strong as the priest had been.

This hypothesis for cannibalism has yet another more important implication. As stated previously, the three ways to appease a grieving Iroquois were with an enemy scalp that represented a prisoner or with a captive who would be adopted or tortured to death. In each of these scenarios, the Iroquois brought a captive or a physical representative of the captive to the tribe, and in each case that individual remained with the tribe in a very physical way. Though eating another warrior did not transfer his prowess into the one who devoured him, his "essence" stayed with the village; in this manner the status quo remains, and the unwanted prisoners would not be wasted. This belief also allowed for the possibility of revenge by torture without detriment to the tribe’s power.

This answer fits well within the Iroquois belief system. The Native Americans were incredibly superstitious, and a spiritual solution would be a reason to condone nearly any sort of behavior. Many of a tribe’s decisions were made only after supernatural omens or dreams were consulted, which clearly demonstrates that spiritual influences had deep effects in the Indian psyche. Supernatural meaning in dreams played an especially large role in Iroquois life, often to the point that something received in a dream could be bestowed upon the dreamer in reality, or an action performed while dreaming would be reenacted by the entire tribe. The same supernatural forces imbued shamans with great powers and influence even beyond even the chief’s authority. The Iroquois even had a purpose for tobacco smoking—the pungent smoke was supposed to be an offering to the spirits of the dead. A belief system with this kind of spiritual emphasis in its make-up could easily condone cannibalistic practices.

There is also a question as to why the same cannibalistic practices were not performed on members of the same tribe. If it did indeed occur, then it was very rare or very private, since no accounts have been found telling of this occurrence. By the previous solution, dead members of one’s own tribe should have been the first ones to be eaten. The confederation system itself is perhaps the solution; instead of fighting amongst other nations for the rights to the dead body, it was more productive to let it be buried. Perhaps the more likely solution to this snag is that the Iroquois could not bear to eat one of their own tribesmen. Since the grieving process upset the Iroquois so much, they were probably unable to bring themselves to cannibalize their own "flesh and blood." This also places emphasis on the "replacement" act of the mourning wars rather than "recycling."

Eating one’s enemies in order to regain lost power has a very broad appeal that also accounts for cannibalism in other northeastern Indian nations. Nearly all of the tribes in this area descend from the Iroquoia people, and many of the primitive beliefs, like their shared language, would also have been passed on to the presently developed tribes. The Iroquoia area, between Lake Erie and the Atlantic Ocean had more than five large rivers flowing out from its heart, which guaranteed this prehistoric people the opportunity to spread their culture. Capturing prisoners and eating their flesh may very well have come from this prehistoric time; whereas the ritual the mourning war, was a contemporary practice brought on by the infighting between the five nations that later formed the Iroquois League.

This solution proposes an answer for both practices that binds the two closely together. While torture served as vengeance against a tribe’s enemy and emotional venting of grief over a relative’s death, cannibalism served to keep tribe’s supernatural power constant while permitting torture to occur. Eating an enemy’s flesh in order to retain this spiritual strength allowed a tribesman to vent his or her frustrations without subtracting from the tribe’s power as a whole. Without the practice of cannibalism, torture probably would still have existed, but certainly not on the large scale in which it had been present. Torture was more the domain of the mourning wars and ensuring that captives would remain with the tribe, while cannibalism had more to do with supernatural belief. Both were tied together by the need to adopt enemies.

Through the course of this paper several possibilities have been proposed that might account for cannibalism and torture among the seventeenth-century Iroquois and other northeastern American tribes. Though many (especially the religious views) may have influenced these abominable practices to varying degrees, the source of these acts stems from the need of the Iroquois to strengthen their own tribes by inducting physically or supernaturally a replacement for a slain member. This practice known as mourning wars did not extend in name to the other tribes, but they doubtlessly performed acts of cannibalism and torture for similar purposes. Though it is not a rationale that we can fully comprehend, cannibalism and torture nonetheless served a very important purpose to the Iroquois and their neighbors.

[Jeeze...it's really a shame that such a noble and obviously superior culture didn't survive. cry So...what do you do for fun on the res these days, Timmy?]



Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The exterminated Neutral, Erie and Huron by the Iroquois in addition to multiple tribal cultures of the tribes they assimilated is true genocide. Indian schools were bad and I am not defending them, but hardly compares to the extermination by the tens of thousands slaughtered or starved to death in the Iroquois wars in the process of stealing the lands.

I submit, that the Indians believe precisely the opposite. If you had even the slightest understanding of the fundamental cultural and spiritual foundation of these Indian groups, you would know that they place, above all else, the importance to their connectedness to the elements, the land, their clans and society, at the very pinnacle of all other considerations. Your glaringly limited, Western mindset and assumptions, ignore all reality.

You display increasingly desperate (and embarrassing) attempts to hold onto whatever little remaining credibility you think you still have.

Walking back your lies doesn't change the fact that the acts perpetrated against Indians in New York State (past and present) still meet the criterion for "genocide", as defined by every US and international institution. In fact, acts of mass-assimilation and re-eduction are probably far more critical in establishing true genocide, than mass murder alone. The push for assimilation continues to this day (as certain individuals on these forums clearly demonstrate).

The fact you don't understand the definition of the word, is of no importance. The fact that another group of people may have committed past atrocities upon themselves, is completely immaterial to the actual argument on every conceivable level. This is an argument strictly about white man's continued acts of atrocities upon an entire continent of indigenous inhabitants.

Your blatantly desperate grasping of "facts" and use of insultingly convoluted logic for the purpose of creating a smokescreen, is a sickening reminder that while over the past century of seemingly modest improvements between the white man and the Indian, in the final analysis, due to racism, ignorance and greed, we have indeed, not come very far, at all.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your blatantly desperate grasping of "facts" and use of insultingly convoluted logic for the purpose of creating a smokescreen, is a sickening reminder that while over the past century of seemingly modest improvements between the white man and the Indian, in the final analysis, due to racism, ignorance and greed, we have indeed, not come very far, at all.
OMG. modest improvement? That is like saying the black people have not come very far in a century and a half from being slaves to having one of their own as president of the United States, the most powerful position in the world.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your blatantly desperate grasping of "facts" and use of insultingly convoluted logic for the purpose of creating a smokescreen, is a sickening reminder that while over the past century of seemingly modest improvements between the white man and the Indian, in the final analysis, due to racism, ignorance and greed, we have indeed, not come very far, at all.
OMG. modest improvement? That is like saying the black people have not come very far in a century and a half from being slaves to having one of their own as president of the United States, the most powerful position in the world.

OMG, yourself!

They're nothing alike, in... the... least.

Unless of course, you can tell us all about how African Americans are also subjected to being legal "Wards of the United States Government" on the alleged 'basis' of having been determined to be "incompetent to tend to their own affairs".

They are two entirely different arguments. Stick to the one at hand, Kyle.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 12:33 PM

That's right...they have been citizens for 90 years, and so have every constitutional protection of rights that anyone else has, plus benefits, based on race, that others aren't given. They have been in Congress, and in other parts of government, and can be POTUS.

In fact, one president has claimed NA blood. We have to consider the character and past behavior of the source, though, so he's probably lying:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/...Offers-No-Proof
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 12:42 PM


And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.

You remember those don't you, the ones that you always screech about when it benefits white, libertarian land/gun owners?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 01:10 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Lol...I wonder if they liked a side of fries with their finger-lickin' good meals.

Adoption or Entree

David Scheimann

Of all the North American Indian tribes, the seventeenth-century Iroquois are the most renowned for their cruelty towards other human beings. Scholars know that they ruthlessly tortured war prisoners and that they were cannibals; in the Algonquin tongue the word Mohawk actually means "flesh-eater." There is even a story that the Indians in neighboring Iroquois territory would flee their homes upon sight of just a small band of Mohawks. Ironically, the Iroquois were not alone in these practices. There is ample evidence that most, if not all, of the Indians of northeastern America engaged in cannibalism and torture—there is documentation of the Huron, Neutral, and Algonquin tribes each exhibiting the same behavior. This paper will examine these atrocities, search through several possible explanations, and ultimately reveal that the practices of cannibalism and torture in the Iroquois were actually related.

Ahh yes, the culture which Bimbo wants revived at the same time lying about it being what it was. But lying and factoids are it's MO.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 01:46 PM

Following ia a posting from young guns, an Indian who lives in Seneca County.

Originally Posted By: young guns
American Indians are they considered a minority?
I'd think so. I will not live nor raise my children that they can have what ever because of the minority status they carry.
I refuse to live under such status and receive benefits because of a group I belong to. Every one should pay their fare share "taxes" or what ever to help support such a great nation we live under. What I have is Pride. Pride that knowing I paid my fair share and will continue to or I'll find another country to live in. With out taxes we'd be in the bucket heading to hell a lot sooner than we are now.
Don't want to pay taxes then live in a Gated Community and be self sufficient. No one should be grated a tax free life.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 03:37 PM

That's the thing about It: It starts out by wanting the world to be a certain way, and then It invents "facts" until the world is in accord with Its delusions. I'll bet Its coat of arms has a rabbit and a hole on it.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.

Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Following ia a posting from young guns, an Indian who lives in Seneca County.

Originally Posted By: young guns
American Indians are they considered a minority?
I'd think so. I will not live nor raise my children that they can have what ever because of the minority status they carry.
I refuse to live under such status and receive benefits because of a group I belong to. Every one should pay their fare share "taxes" or what ever to help support such a great nation we live under. What I have is Pride. Pride that knowing I paid my fair share and will continue to or I'll find another country to live in. With out taxes we'd be in the bucket heading to hell a lot sooner than we are now.
Don't want to pay taxes then live in a Gated Community and be self sufficient. No one should be grated a tax free life.

Do all those of European, Asian, African, Middle Eastern and so on, share the same beliefs? Obviously not, Boy Genius.

He doesn't speak for all of his people (of which he has multiple), any more than your speak for all of yours (as no doubt, do you).
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:32 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
That's the thing about It: It starts out by wanting the world to be a certain way, and then It invents "facts" until the world is in accord with Its delusions. I'll bet Its coat of arms has a rabbit and a hole on it.

Wow! You guys sure do exhibit all the classic symptoms of clinical arrested development.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.

Not more than five or six times, anyway. crazy
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
What will these rights give them? The right to leave the USA? They have that right now.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.
Not more than five or six times, anyway. crazy
That is a lie. Not once have you answered numerous questions I have put to you.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Following ia a posting from young guns, an Indian who lives in Seneca County.

Originally Posted By: young guns
American Indians are they considered a minority?
I'd think so. I will not live nor raise my children that they can have what ever because of the minority status they carry.
I refuse to live under such status and receive benefits because of a group I belong to. Every one should pay their fare share "taxes" or what ever to help support such a great nation we live under. What I have is Pride. Pride that knowing I paid my fair share and will continue to or I'll find another country to live in. With out taxes we'd be in the bucket heading to hell a lot sooner than we are now.
Don't want to pay taxes then live in a Gated Community and be self sufficient. No one should be grated a tax free life.
Do all those of European, Asian, African, Middle Eastern and so on, share the same beliefs? Obviously not, Boy Genius.
Huh? I thought we were talking about Native Americans?
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 06:15 PM

Who's this?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 06:49 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
What will these rights give them? The right to leave the USA? They have that right now.

Hey, Buddy, YOU are the immigrant.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do all those of European, Asian, African, Middle Eastern and so on, share the same beliefs? Obviously not, Boy Genius.
Huh? I thought we were talking about Native Americans?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Who's this?


Smitty doing a Drag Queen Review at Sonnenberg Gardens, Right? grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
What will these rights give them? The right to leave the USA? They have that right now.
Hey, Buddy, YOU are the immigrant.
How do you figure that? I consider myself a Native American. I was born here. And nobody is leaving so we should do like young guns says and let bygones be bygones. The USA is trying harder that any nation in history to make everyone equal. Attitudes like yours are hurting that effort.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And given the choice, most of them would likely prefer to forfeit those "opportunities", if it meant they could finally be given back, their natural, inalienable rights.
As I posted a day or two ago, they can renounce their American citizenship any time they want to. What else do you think we can for them? I don't expect you to answer that question. You never answer questions.
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
What will these rights give them? The right to leave the USA? They have that right now.
Hey, Buddy, YOU are the immigrant.
Once again you are hinting that everyone that should leave the USA to the Indians. But if I suggest that you say I am putting words in your mouth. Rich hit the nail on the head when he said you only feed off my comments and never commit to anything yourself. That makes you a total coward.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/08/14 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
He doesn't speak for all of his people (of which he has multiple), any more than your speak for all of yours
That is right. But it is very refreshing to find a local Native American that loves the USA and is willing to pay his fair share of taxes.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/11/14 09:48 PM

Re Blue Man in the Trust Lawsuit thread: Evidently the decision, as stated in the article, was that the Judge would not make a decision until her hears the case on May 20.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 01:21 AM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...mission-meeting

Vote on Sherrill-Oneida County deal withdrawn until next Commission meeting

The current deal, as it is drafted now, would put Sherrill on the receiving end of nearly $160,000 annually, a percentage of the Settlement Agreement money, that was determined by the city's proportionate share of the county's population. In tern, the city of Sherrill could not pursue further legal action against the Oneida Indian Nation, including challenging the land-into-trust decision or the settlement agreement. The city would retain leeway on utility contracts provided to the Nation. Doing so would require the city to pay back the money received through the deal, with an undisclosed amount of interest on top of the funds. The deal has an indefinite amount of time attached to it.

Objections to voting on the deal were raised by Commissioner Mike Hennessy, who insists on getting more legal input on how the deal is drafted an making sure that certain protections are in-place for the city. Speaking against Hennessy was City Manager Bob Comis, who insists that the “take-it-or-leave” it deal is the only way for the city to come out of the agreement without losing money.

Judy Bachmann, a resident of the Town of Vernon and a leader of Citizen's Equal Rights Alliance, spoke during public comment at the meeting, voicing her opinion against the deal and offering help from her organization. Bachmann was one of 8 non-commissioners in attendance.

"This is issue isn't about the money for me," Bachmann said. "It's about jurisdiction, sovereignty and equal rights for all of our citizens being compromised. Everything that we're seeing here is something that has gone negatively for other municipalities in other parts of the country."

Bachmann questioned that the Sherrill Deal has no end-clause, and had an indefinite term. She also stated that she is certain that with the prospect of other casino enterprises state-wide reducing the Turning Stone slot revenues, the state and by extension the counties and municipalities that enter deals to receive settlement aid will end up losing in the long run. In addition to these matters, she raised fears of what the land into trust issue could create, sighting current litigation in Arizona were a tribal government has authority and jurisdiction over American citizens and stating that this could transfer here.

"I don't care if you make an agreement or not, I just want to make sure this city and others are protected," Bachmann said.

Bachmann expressed concerns that the deal could be decided by only one of two parties; the county or the city of Sherrill. Comis shot this down, and stated that both governments have to agree to the terms of the deal for it to take effect. She offered to provide free legal advice from CERA attorneys at the beginning of June, after the commission’s deadline of decision on May 31.

Comis voiced his opinion on the issue, stating that should the city not accept the county's proposal, it could lead to future legal battles at a cost to the district. In the past, Comis said that Sherrill was aided by the county and the state in legal battles; the settlement agreement will prevent that help from coming in the future.

"I'm disappointed that this discussion has dissolved into a dictatorial "take it or leave it from the county legislature," Commissioner Jason Merrill said. To him, that settlement agreement and the current "take-it-or leave it" deals are akin to having "a gun held to your head."

After a motion from Hennessy to withdraw the item and postpone a vote on the deal, Hennessy, Merrill and Patrick Hubbard voted against Mayor Bill Vineall and Jeff Gilbert to postpone the vote until the May 16 meeting of the commission. In the coming weeks, the commission will be exploring some of the concerns raised by members of the community and those of Hennessy.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 02:07 AM

It's just more Timdistraction. All the ethnic groups in the Americas immigrated. Just because some came earlier than others doesn't change that fact.

This is interesting:


Native Americans were actually European - BEFORE the Europeans arrived!
Columbus et al invaded relatives who went via Siberia
By Lewis Page, 21 Nov 2013

DNA from a prehistoric Siberian boy could reveal exactly where Native Americans - the people who occupied the American continents before Europeans crossed the Atlantic - actually came from.

Everybody's pretty clear that the Native Americans arrived across the ancient land bridge from Asia, the location of the present-day Bering Strait. But where the generations before that had lived on their way from the birthplace of humanity in Africa is far from certain, and is a hotly debated topic among scientists.


DNA samples taken from modern day Native Americans include genetic signatures known to originate from Western Eurasia - broadly speaking, European ancestry. But many scientists say that these must have been added to the mixture since Columbus arrived. They would say that the original Native Americans, moving through Siberia on their way to America, were not at all closely related to the groups who would one day become Europeans and then - many of them in the last few centuries - Conquistadores and colonists and huddled masses and so on, and thus the various flavours of European-American.

But now some new information has appeared. DNA analysis has sequenced the genome of a Siberian lad who died some 24,000 years ago when the land bridge was still there and the migration into what would become Alaska was in full flow. A full test has also been carried out on another Siberian of 17,000 years back. In both cases, it appears that the Siberians of the time had a much heftier dose of genetic signatures similar to proto-Europeans, and that in all likelihood they took those with them to America.

The investigating scientists write in hefty boffinry mag Nature:

Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans.

So it appears that the Native Americans were in part merely an earlier wave of European colonisation, later to find most of their conquests taken away by Johnny-come-latelies from across the water. ®
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.


is that before or after they call the local authorities to protect them from their own 'members'?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
is that before or after they call the local authorities to protect them from their own 'members'?
ROFLMAO. I love it. That is the funniest post I have read in a long time.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
It's just more Timdistraction. All the ethnic groups in the Americas immigrated. Just because some came earlier than others doesn't change that fact.

This is interesting:


Native Americans were actually European - BEFORE the Europeans arrived!
Columbus et al invaded relatives who went via Siberia
By Lewis Page, 21 Nov 2013

DNA from a prehistoric Siberian boy could reveal exactly where Native Americans - the people who occupied the American continents before Europeans crossed the Atlantic - actually came from.

Everybody's pretty clear that the Native Americans arrived across the ancient land bridge from Asia, the location of the present-day Bering Strait. But where the generations before that had lived on their way from the birthplace of humanity in Africa is far from certain, and is a hotly debated topic among scientists.


DNA samples taken from modern day Native Americans include genetic signatures known to originate from Western Eurasia - broadly speaking, European ancestry. But many scientists say that these must have been added to the mixture since Columbus arrived. They would say that the original Native Americans, moving through Siberia on their way to America, were not at all closely related to the groups who would one day become Europeans and then - many of them in the last few centuries - Conquistadores and colonists and huddled masses and so on, and thus the various flavours of European-American.

But now some new information has appeared. DNA analysis has sequenced the genome of a Siberian lad who died some 24,000 years ago when the land bridge was still there and the migration into what would become Alaska was in full flow. A full test has also been carried out on another Siberian of 17,000 years back. In both cases, it appears that the Siberians of the time had a much heftier dose of genetic signatures similar to proto-Europeans, and that in all likelihood they took those with them to America.

The investigating scientists write in hefty boffinry mag Nature:

Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans.

So it appears that the Native Americans were in part merely an earlier wave of European colonisation, later to find most of their conquests taken away by Johnny-come-latelies from across the water. ®

Do you think that by regurgitating decades old, scientific findings, utterly unrelated to the issue, that you've somehow justified Genocide?

Brilliant.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
is that before or after they call the local authorities to protect them from their own 'members'?
ROFLMAO. I love it. That is the funniest post I have read in a long time.

A Three Stooges fan, I take it. crazy
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 10:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Let's start with their Freedom and Unimpeded Sovereignty.
is that before or after they call the local authorities to protect them from their own 'members'?
ROFLMAO. I love it. That is the funniest post I have read in a long time.

A Three Stooges fan, I take it. crazy
That is a good reply by you since there is no way you can justify this internal Indian squabble needing an outside police force to keep the peace.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
That is a good reply by you since there is no way you can justify this internal Indian squabble needing an outside police force to keep the peace.
That is UTTERLY correct being that it has no clue outside of Google searches and posts made here. It would starve to death if you did not feed it.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
That is a good reply by you since there is no way you can justify this internal Indian squabble needing an outside police force to keep the peace.
That is UTTERLY correct being that it has no clue outside of Google searches and posts made here. It would starve to death if you did not feed it.


There ya go, using IT as a personal pronoun again. crazy

That 10 gallon azzhat sure fits you well Richie.



Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 04:06 PM

How else would you describe something that does not live in the real world and believes all answers can be found on google?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 04:22 PM


As compared to someone who prefers to have NO answers? grin
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
let bygones be bygones.

Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
let bygones be bygones.
And constantly rehashing 500 year old events accomplishes nothing.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:15 PM


Au contraire, mon frère, it prevents the horrors of the past from being repeated in the future (or in this case, from being perpetuated in the present).
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
And constantly rehashing 500 year old events accomplishes nothing.

“Those unable to catalog the past are doomed to repeat it.”
-Lemony Snicket

May karmic law enlighten you Kyle. whistle
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Ou contraire mon frere, it prevents the horrors of the past from being repeated in the future (or in this case, from being perpetuated in the present).
Tell me how we are abusing these tax cheats at the present. You can't because we are not.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
And constantly rehashing 500 year old events accomplishes nothing.

“Those unable to catalog the past are doomed to repeat it.”
-Lemony Snicket

May karmic law enlighten you Kyle. whistle

One way or another.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Ou contraire mon frere, it prevents the horrors of the past from being repeated in the future (or in this case, from being perpetuated in the present).
Tell me how we are abusing these tax cheats at the present. You can't because we are not.

< shaking my head in pity >
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
And constantly rehashing 500 year old events accomplishes nothing.

“Those unable to catalog the past are doomed to repeat it.”
-Lemony Snicket

May karmic law enlighten you Kyle. whistle

One way or another.

cool
Sooner the better.
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:23 PM

Take another toke.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:25 PM


Time to scrape the poop off my shoes and go chat with the grownups for a bit.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Ou contraire mon frere, it prevents the horrors of the past from being repeated in the future (or in this case, from being perpetuated in the present).
Tell me how we are abusing these tax cheats at the present. You can't because we are not.
< shaking my head in pity >
shaking your head is all you can do because you can't answer my request.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Time to scrape the poop off my shoes and go chat with the grownups for a bit.
You do spend a lot of time walking in it. That is for sure. Is Halftown a grownup? Is he an example of the grownups u hang with?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Tell me how we are abusing these tax cheats at the present. You can't because we are not.

Why not pose THAT question to an actual member of the Iroquois Confederacy?

Give Seneca Nation Faithkeeper of the Turtle Clan Oren Lyons a call. I'm quite sure he'll be glad fill you in.
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:09 PM

Absolutely clueless take another hit.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Absolutely clueless take another hit.

You find that clueless response? Very interesting. Please explain why.
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:19 PM

How are we abusing the Indians that are buying homes in Seneca County and not paying property taxes on them?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:24 PM

Are you forgetting? I asked YOU a direct question.

Again, You find that clueless response? Very interesting. Please explain why.

Back up it Tubster.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Tell me how we are abusing these tax cheats at the present. You can't because we are not.

Why not pose THAT question to an actual member of the Iroquois Confederacy?

Give Seneca Nation Faithkeeper of the Turtle Clan Oren Lyons a call. I'm quite sure he'll be glad fill you in.
I fail to understand why you cannot answer it right here.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/13/14 06:58 PM

what a fine example of a leader! He sure makes me want to money to his cause!

*******************************************************

On the FL Times editorial page by Bob Shipley:

In response to the former Cayuga Indian National federal representative, Clint Halftown, who stated in an appeal to the residents of Seneca and Cayuga counties to allocate additional law enforcement and prosecutorial services for the Nation’s ongoing leadership dispute (Finger Lakes Times, May 1):

Words do not begin to describe the level of hypocrisy and downright shameless ideology expressed by Mr. Halftown.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 01:08 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
How are we abusing the Indians that are buying homes in Seneca County and not paying property taxes on them?


You aren't. They're abusing you. Like most abusers, they blame their victims.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 04:30 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Originally Posted By: tubby
How are we abusing the Indians that are buying homes in Seneca County and not paying property taxes on them?
You aren't. They're abusing you. Like most abusers, they blame their victims.
A good point.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Are you forgetting? I asked YOU a direct question.
I am asking you a direct question since Timbo refuses to answer it. How are we abusing the Indians in 2014?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 07:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
A Three Stooges fan, I take it.


timbo, halftown and halbritter
lol
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Native Americans were actually European - BEFORE the Europeans arrived!

DNA from a prehistoric Siberian boy could reveal exactly where Native Americans actually came from.

Everybody's pretty clear that the Native Americans arrived across the ancient land bridge from Asia, the location of the present-day Bering Strait.


Do you think that by regurgitating decades old, scientific findings, utterly unrelated to the issue


unrelated?
when will you return back to the other side of the large pond?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Native Americans were actually European - BEFORE the Europeans arrived!

DNA from a prehistoric Siberian boy could reveal exactly where Native Americans actually came from.

Everybody's pretty clear that the Native Americans arrived across the ancient land bridge from Asia, the location of the present-day Bering Strait.

Do you think that by regurgitating decades old, scientific findings, utterly unrelated to the issue

unrelated?

Patently.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/14/14 01:26 PM

May 14, 2014
Dear Concerned Taxpayers of Oneida County:

The attachment [note-not attached in this post] contains two slides which tell the story about the recent removal of Oneida Indian Nation Land from the Real Property Assessment in the Town of Verona. The first slide shows the assessment, last year, totaling $627,076,303.00; and, the second slide shows the amount of the Town’s assessment after Oneida County officials told the Town of Verona that it was removing the OIN's total assessed value from the rolls, totaling almost $400,000,000.00, with the total town assessment now reduced to $229,635,698.00.

The action was taken against the Town of Verona - over the protestations made by Town Supervisor Owen Waller. And, this step was taken even though there has been no bona fide establishment of federal trust land yet here in Central New York, as proposed under the Settlement Agreement. That is, the Settlement Agreement, arguably is not fully consummated in terms of its intended purpose, with all due propriety.

222 parcels were shifted from the tax assessment rolls to 'wholly exempt' just recently. The Patrick Road parcel with the Turning Stone Casino was supposed to pay between $16 and $17 Million Dollars in real estate taxes, based on 3 appraisals some time ago. New improvements have not been appraised, so, this assessment total is on the low side.

The Town of Verona did not sign onto the so-called 'Settlement Agreement' which was dubbed a ‘Contract’ by Federal District Judge Lawrence Kahn.

Judge Kahn wrote in his March 4, 2014 Memorandum-Decision & Order that parties that did not sign the Contract, like the Town of Verona, could challenge it. Specifically, Judge Kahn writes on page 19 of his decision, "A settlement agreement, even when incorporated into a court order such that it becomes a consent decree, remains a contract between the parties to the agreement."

The Judge continues, "A party must consent to a consent decree before that decree can be enforced against that party. Those who are not parties to a consent decree are free to challenge the decree and actions taken under it. Here, only the Plaintiffs [namely, the State and Oneida and Madison Counties] and the Oneida Indian Nation (OIN) are signatories to the Settlement Agreement. Accordingly, the Settlement Agreement's definition of "Reservation" is only binding between the Plaintiffs and the OIN and only for the purpose of the Settlement Agreement"; [Kahn's ruling of March 4, 2014, pg. 19].

On page 23 of Kahn's ruling he writes, "The Settlement Agreement itself does not transfer title to any lands..."

On page 2, the Judge advises, "The Settlement Agreement is extensive, and the Court recites only those provisions directly relevant to this [particular] Memorandum-Decision and Order." And, "...this case is only one of several disputes..." And, on page 4 Judge Kahn explains, "The Settlement Agreement provides for the dismissal of this case. It does NOT affect the four related [and unconsolidated] cases challenging the 2008 ROD, [Record of Decision handed down by the U.S. Department of Interior that had advocated that an Agency of the federal government could pull-off a land-grab in favor of the tribe, to the detriment of land owners, taxpayers and town governments here in Central New York].

Judge Kahn makes it clear that the Settlement Agreement "does not affect the four related cases challenging the 2008 ROD..." He notes that the UpState Citizen's for Equality case, the Town of Verona case, and, the Central New York Fair Business case, all Plaintiffs, among others, will see their cases continue...

In other words, more legal questions still have to play out and be properly adjudicated in the courts and an entire just and equitable resolution of all disputes has not yet been arrived at.

As for the Settlement Agreement, Judge Kahn opines on page 20 of his ruling that the obligations created [between the four parties] to the Settlement Agreement are obligations that hinge on "the agreement of the parties, rather than the force of law."

As such, Kahn then writes, "Therefore, no party can invoke the terms of the Settlement Agreement to force the DOI to decide trust applications in a certain way".

Along that line of thinking, the Town of Verona should not be forced to give-up it's assessment, especially if the land status has not changed under the Settlement Agreement, as Judge Kahn tells the Stockbridge-Munsee Indian Tribe in his Order. The Town is not a party to the contract! Therefore, it's interests should not be impaired!

Essentially, the State and the Counties were one roadblock of many; the settlement of their dispute under the agreement does not eliminate, or impact, the other roadblocks (legal cases) that Judge Kahn acknowledges. Furthermore, Judge Kahn writes that "the United States is not a signatory to the Settlement Agreement".

Also, Judge Kahn's court is not a court of final judicial determination! The legal action regarding a challenge to the creation of federal trust land, where it never existed before, is presently in federal district court. This case will inevitably be appealed to the U.S. 2nd Circuit. Furthermore, the Town of Verona has a second action, fighting for the town's life, in State Supreme Court.

The County Attorney's opinion letter that goes against the Town, calling for the removal of the assessed value, contrary to the rational of Sherrill, (a U.S. Supreme Court Case of 2005 which called for 'justifiable expectations' and not a super-citizen status on behalf of one group over another), did not receive legislative sanction, or approval, by the County Board of Legislators. That is, the so-called ‘deal’ was to be consummated with the full sanctioning, or approval, of federal trust land; this has not yet occurred, (as the status of the land remains in the courts.)

So, it appears that Mr. Samuels letter, which was sent to the Town of Verona, (but not even copied to the Oneida County Board of Legislators), appears to have precipitated the tax assessment change in Verona, and in other Oneida County townships, as implemented by the Oneida County Department of Finance. More to the point, Mr. Halbritter's commitments were to pay taxes on all land that were not going into federal trust. None of the land is in federal trust yet; and, an alternative reading of the comprehensive Settlement Agreement is putting the cart before the horse!

Again, this was all done and implemented, even though Judge Kahn has opined, in his March 4, 2014 Decision, that the land status has not changed!

What if the extrapolation made by Oneida County Attorney Harris Samuels is not 'right on the money'? Judge Kahn has not directed for this action to take place against the Town of Verona, and the other towns that have also received the Harris Samuels letter. Shouldn't Mr. Samuels, at this stage of the process, instead be advocating for the continuation of the so-called 'Ray Meier Legislation' to our local representatives in the New York State Legislature to protect against an unfavorable outcome in the courts as the litigation regarding the Oneida County tax base continues? (While Oneida County’s legislation is this regard appears to be good until the end of the year, the State’s legislation may expire at the end of June unless it is renewed.)

Unfortunately, equal protection under the law, a so-called level playing field, and due and just protection of Oneida County taxpayers is not being preserved and protected by far too many elected representatives. What appears to be playing out is an ongoing and ever larger anti-Constitutional pyramid scheme in which the "we the people" voice is being shunned.

Where is the Oneida County Indian Affairs Committee? As the old saying goes, "If the blind shall lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

Think on this: When the OIN, under Mr. Halbritter’s leadership, builds the tribe's version of the Mall of America, with no town, county or school tax ever being due; and, with sales tax the tribe can keep, (with leases of their own, to be made with any willing business), the stores in New Hartford, NY may go by-the-boards, or belly-up, the way that the North Utica 'Riverside Mall' did.

Riverside Mall imploded due to a lack of people, (not product, of course), e.g., once Sangertown Mall was established in New Hartford.

And, once 'Consumer Square' was built in New Hartford, the profit margin, due to competition, has been and remains very, very thin.

Should an Indian Mall compromise stores that pay taxes, due to a huge, competitive advantage, then, Oneida County sales tax will inevitably be compromised.

Oneida County Sales Tax is now pushing to be almost $100,000,000.00. That amount is about ¼ of the County of Oneida’s budget. If sales tax is compromised, the difference for county operations may have to come out of the county wide real property assessment.

People only have so much so-called 'plus-money' aka discretionary money, so, if the extra, plus money, (after the bills and mortgage & rent are paid), are being spent, in large fashion with the tribal leased businesses, Wal Mart, Hannaford, etc., say good-bye to conventional tax dollars for the running of Oneida County's local governments…

If $660,000.00 amounts to about 1% of the Oneida County tax levy, where will everyone’s HOME real property taxes go, especially if the BIG, HUGE Commercial Drive real estate taxpayers migrate to a Verona Indian location?

And, the money to be realized by the settlement deal is only pennies on the dollar even before the tribe engages in big, huge retail enterprises in which they will be able to keep all of the sales tax dollars.

Two last thoughts: "A County without vision, shall perish…" And, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Fighting Our Community and Equal Protection Under Law, Respectfully Yours,

Chad Davis

Oneida County Legislator – 14th Legislative District
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/16/14 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Native Americans were actually European - BEFORE the Europeans arrived!

DNA from a prehistoric Siberian boy could reveal exactly where Native Americans actually came from.

Everybody's pretty clear that the Native Americans arrived across the ancient land bridge from Asia, the location of the present-day Bering Strait.


Do you think that by regurgitating decades old, scientific findings, utterly unrelated to the issue



timbo - when will you return back to the other side of the large pond?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/16/14 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Native Americans were actually European - BEFORE the Europeans arrived!

DNA from a prehistoric Siberian boy could reveal exactly where Native Americans actually came from.

Everybody's pretty clear that the Native Americans arrived across the ancient land bridge from Asia, the location of the present-day Bering Strait.

Do you think that by regurgitating decades old, scientific findings, utterly unrelated to the issue

unrelated?

Patently.


then there are no 'native americans' just europeans

all federal programs for 'native americans' are void

lol
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/16/14 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


then there are no 'native americans' just europeans

all federal programs for 'native americans' are void

lol

Hu-yuck hu-yuck hu-yuck.

Simple things never fail to amuse your simple mind Bz. crazy
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 12:09 AM

http://romesentinel.com/county/proposed-plan-for-settlement-cash-under-review/QBqneo!JvJ05tpK6YcFAo22TpqW8Q/
Proposed plan for settlement cash under review
May 17, 2014

A proposed revenue sharing agreement for Oneida County municipalities affected by tax-free land that belongs to the Oneida Indian Nation remains under review by a city, two villages and two towns.

The county payments would be accepted by a municipality “in lieu of of any lost revenue it may experience in real estate tax, sales tax, or any other tax, or any loss of revenue or item of expense whatsoever, resulting from the implementation of the settlement agreement,” states a draft of the proposed contract, which has no expiration date.

Municipalities that take the money have to agree not to be part of any future litigation against the Oneidas over property tax exemptions and trust land and not join any challenges to last year’s state brokered settlement with the Oneidas. If a municipality sued the Oneidas, it would have to return any payments received from the county, plus pay an interest charge.

As part of the state settlement, the two counties agreed not to sue the Oneidas.

[Note: do not believe everything you read. The only way one can get the tribe into court is if the tribe sues you first. At one point the Oneida tried to drop their Foreclosure lawsuit against the counties but if the counties had dropped their counter claim there would have been no way to foreclose or collect the taxes. The Oneida owe over $198 million in back taxes. The counties have dropped their claims in accordance with the Settlement agreement. Unfortunately the counties caved in under the threats and intimidation by Andy Cuomo. However with more than one case headed to SCOTUS challenging sovereign immunity it appears that the tribe wrote the settlement and the agreement. ]

The state settlement requires no tax payments on up to about 25,000 acres of tribe-owned land in Oneida and Madison counties.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 12:10 AM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140518/NEWS/140519332
1 year later, Oneidas' deal showing results

Written by Elizabeth Cooper but sounds more like a tribal press release to try and sway the cities and towns which have not agreed to the county offers and demands.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 12:14 AM

CERA REGIONAL CONFERENCE

WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW CAN HURT YOU!!
Take the time to understand why:
The Towns of Vernon and Verona,
Central New York Fair Business/Citizens Equal Rights Alliance
are suing to protect the rights of the citizens of Central New York.
SUNDAY JUNE 1, 2014 2-5 p.m.
AT V.V.S. AUDITORIUM,
Route 31, Verona, NY
Included Speakers on Federal Indian Policy, local tax structure, the "settlement agreement", local contracts and their IMPACT on YOU and Central New York!!!

1. Lana Marcussen-Saucerman, Esq. AZ.
(Legal Advisor to CERA on Federal Indian Policy and U.S. Constitution)
2. Butch Cranford CA. – CERA Vice Chair
3. Carol Kelley, MA. – CERA Board Member
(Survivor of Salamanca NY)
4. Richard Tallcot, TN – CERA Board Member
5. Jerry Titus, CERA Board Member
(Survivor of Salamaca, NY)

You owe it to yourself and the people who are fighting for you to attend, learn the facts about the status of the legal cases, local tax structure and law enforcement issues that are not being released to media
For information call 829-3843
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 01:36 AM

At least you're smart enough to see how it's related.

"Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans.

So it appears that the Native Americans were in part merely an earlier wave of European colonisation, later to find most of their conquests taken away by Johnny-come-latelies from across the water. ®"

It has very much to do with the question of "Whose continent is it?"

It's belonged to a mix of races from the very beginning. And conquest didn't start with whites vs Indians, and it didn't start with Iroquois vs Algonquins. It is endemic to mankind. It started in Africa, spread to Eurasia, among those various peoples, and came with the 1st migrants to this continent, and continued among them, and has continued ever since.

Some nitwits seem to think that everything was calm and peaceful until Columbus showed up, and tilted some imaginary static Nirvana out of kilter. They must think it was all buffalo, unicorns and rainbows. And of course, they were all neatly balanced on the back of a turtle.

They think that if they could just rewind to the glory days of pre-1492, the various tribes of aboriginals wouldn't be conquering, barbarically torturing, enslaving, and slaughtering, and stealing territory from each other. Whitey's got a lock on bad behavior, and must pay dearly for ruining Paradise, seems to be the idea.

They just can't get their heads around the fact that a Stone Age people was displaced by a vastly more advanced culture. It must really suck to be forever stuck in 1491.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 06:33 AM

http://auburnpub.com/cayuga-nation-altercation/image_a543a902-195c-5f0f-9606-30c35d443636.html

April 28, 2014 4:45 pm • Provided by Joseph Heath



An attorney for the Cayuga Nation Unity Council said a 76-year-old citizen of the tribe was injured by security officers hired by the tribe's federal representative, Clint Halftown, during a dispute in Union Springs Monday morning.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
At least you're smart enough to see how it's related.

"Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans.

So it appears that the Native Americans were in part merely an earlier wave of European colonisation, later to find most of their conquests taken away by Johnny-come-latelies from across the water. ®"

It has very much to do with the question of "Whose continent is it?"

It's belonged to a mix of races from the very beginning. And conquest didn't start with whites vs Indians, and it didn't start with Iroquois vs Algonquins. It is endemic to mankind. It started in Africa, spread to Eurasia, among those various peoples, and came with the 1st migrants to this continent, and continued among them, and has continued ever since.

Some nitwits seem to think that everything was calm and peaceful until Columbus showed up, and tilted some imaginary static Nirvana out of kilter. They must think it was all buffalo, unicorns and rainbows. And of course, they were all neatly balanced on the back of a turtle.

They think that if they could just rewind to the glory days of pre-1492, the various tribes of aboriginals wouldn't be conquering, barbarically torturing, enslaving, and slaughtering, and stealing territory from each other. Whitey's got a lock on bad behavior, and must pay dearly for ruining Paradise, seems to be the idea.

They just can't get their heads around the fact that a Stone Age people was displaced by a vastly more advanced culture.
It must really suck to be forever stuck in 1491.

First of all, what evidence do you cite to back up your patently retarded assertions that anyone has either claimed or suggested such idiocy? ? ?

Secondly, the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.

Lastly, Native Americans were absolutely NOT "merely an earlier wave of European coloni s [z]ation". There are only two proto-lineages of modern man. They originate in Africa and Asia. Scientifically speaking, any other genetic considerations are inarguably secondary to that fact, and therefore meaningless to the point.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.
I have asked you over and over what you think reasonable accommodations would be to roll back the damage from the past and you refuse to tell us what you think.

I think in the case of the USA the "conquering" forces have arguably been more fair in 2014 to the American Indian than any other such "conquering" force in human history.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.
I have asked you over and over what you think reasonable accommodations would be to roll back the damage from the past and you refuse to tell us what you think.

I think in the case of the USA the "conquering" forces have arguably been more fair in 2014 to the American Indian than any other such "conquering" force in human history.

"Arguably" is the proper word in context to that statement.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 11:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.
I have asked you over and over what you think reasonable accommodations would be to roll back the damage from the past and you refuse to tell us what you think.

I think in the case of the USA the "conquering" forces have arguably been more fair in 2014 to the American Indian than any other such "conquering" force in human history.
"Arguably" is the proper word in context to that statement.
And yet you can propose no solution? What a waste you are.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.
I have asked you over and over what you think reasonable accommodations would be to roll back the damage from the past and you refuse to tell us what you think.

I think in the case of the USA the "conquering" forces have arguably been more fair in 2014 to the American Indian than any other such "conquering" force in human history.
"Arguably" is the proper word in context to that statement.
And yet you can propose no solution? What a waste you are.

And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.
I have asked you over and over what you think reasonable accommodations would be to roll back the damage from the past and you refuse to tell us what you think.
I think in the case of the USA the "conquering" forces have arguably been more fair in 2014 to the American Indian than any other such "conquering" force in human history.
"Arguably" is the proper word in context to that statement.
And yet you can propose no solution? What a waste you are.
And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
What? I have seen no proposed solution from you and you know it.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
A week ago you were gloating because there had been no violence. Now we have a pic of Halftowns thugs beating up an old Indian who is an American veteran! And you still support him? I am totally disgusted.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
the fact that genocide and other atrocities have happened throughout human history, doesn't magical justify crimes against the American Indian, nor does it negate the obligation of having to make reasonable accommodations to roll back the damage done in the past. Even for the "conquering" forces.
I have asked you over and over what you think reasonable accommodations would be to roll back the damage from the past and you refuse to tell us what you think.
I think in the case of the USA the "conquering" forces have arguably been more fair in 2014 to the American Indian than any other such "conquering" force in human history.
"Arguably" is the proper word in context to that statement.
And yet you can propose no solution? What a waste you are.
And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
What? I have seen no proposed solution from you and you know it.

If you say so. tired
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
What? I have seen no proposed solution from you and you know it.

If you say so. tired
That is exactly what I say. You are worthless.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:40 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
A week ago you were gloating because there had been no violence. Now we have a pic of Halttowns thugs beating up an old Indian who is an American veteran. And you still support him? I am totally disgusted.

BS. I merely asked you if anyone was hurt. And at that time, no one was. You have absolutely NO any idea, whatsoever, the cause of this gentlemen's injuries (unless you now count pure, unadulterated speculation as some kind of "proof").

The fact that he may have been a veteran, is completely irrelevant to the events described (unless of course, your intentions are simply to stir emotional resentment). Still irrelevant.

Give it up, Kiddo. You're dodging the point.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
What? I have seen no proposed solution from you and you know it.
If you say so. tired
That is exactly what I say. You are worthless.

Then WHY do you insist on incessantly engaging one so "worthless" ? ? ? crazy
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
What? I have seen no proposed solution from you and you know it.
If you say so. tired
That is exactly what I say. You are worthless.
Then WHY do you insist on incessantly engaging one so "worthless" ? ? ? crazy
I guess just because I hate to let you have the last word. Especially when there is so much happening now that makes the local tribes look soooooo bad. grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
A week ago you were gloating because there had been no violence. Now we have a pic of Halttowns thugs beating up an old Indian who is an American veteran. And you still support him? I am totally disgusted.
BS. I merely asked you if anyone was hurt.
No I don't remember your exact wording and I am no going to look it up but you definitely were gloating that no one was hurt other than a police car.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
The fact that he may have been a veteran, is completely irrelevant to the events described (unless of course, your intentions are simply to stir emotional resentment). Still irrelevant.
Then so is the point that you brought up that you served in the US Navy.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 05:43 PM

Notice that he doesn't specify which crimes, if any, were committed against the Indians. It's more timblather.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 06:55 PM


No, I was calling you out on your BS "It's too Dangerous" signature.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The fact that he may have been a veteran, is completely irrelevant to the events described (unless of course, your intentions are simply to stir emotional resentment). Still irrelevant.
Then so is the point that you brought up that you served in the US Navy.

What in the world are you talking about, NOW? ? ? crazy
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Notice that he doesn't specify which crimes, if any, were committed against the Indians.

Then you're either blind or have Alzheimer's
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The fact that he may have been a veteran, is completely irrelevant to the events described (unless of course, your intentions are simply to stir emotional resentment). Still irrelevant.
Then so is the point that you brought up that you served in the US Navy.
What in the world are you talking about, NOW? ? ? crazy
How dense are you? If he being a veteran is irrelevant so is your serving in the US Navy that you brought up just to rub it in.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 07:11 PM


Are you totally deranged??? When did I bring up my Navy service?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/19/14 09:35 PM


Cat got your tongue?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are you totally deranged??? When did I bring up my Navy service?
Wow. How you do think I knew about it if you didn't bring it up?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Cat got your tongue?
You think I have to jump to reply every time you post? You are beyond contemptible in so many ways. As VM said, it must really suck to be stuck in the year 1491.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are you totally deranged??? When did I bring up my Navy service?
Wow. How you do think I knew about it if you didn't bring it up?
You didn't answer the question.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 09:05 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Cat got your tongue?
You think I have to jump to reply every time you post? You are beyond contemptible in so many ways. As VM said, it must really suck to be stuck in the year 1491.

Got a taste of your own bitter medicine. How does it feel?

Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle

As far as any contempt you may feel towards me... I sense that its's probably due to me, not letting you get away with your steady flow of couched prejudices and other BS.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And what a bald-faced liar, YOU are. You simply don't LIKE the solutions, since they would require a degree of sacrifice on your part, and especially because it would undermine most of the propaganda treaded out by UCE/CERA/CERF, you and Richie Tallcot. Then... bye-bye white property rights arguments.
A week ago you were gloating because there had been no violence. Now we have a pic of Halttowns thugs beating up an old Indian who is an American veteran. And you still support him? I am totally disgusted.
BS. I merely asked you if anyone was hurt.
No I don't remember your exact wording and I am no going to look it up but you definitely were gloating that no one was hurt other than a police car.

And that pretty much sums up they way you typically operate. Never mind the fact that what you said is patently false.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle
Fast forward to 2014. Now we have a tribe in Seneca and Cayuga asking local county courts to get involved and settle an intra-tribal leadership question for them! I call that despicable in the other direction! I guess they are not capable of handling their own affairs.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle
Fast forward to 2014. Now we have a tribe in Seneca and Cayuga asking local county courts to get involved and settle an intra-tribal leadership question for them! I call that despicable in the other direction! I guess they are not capable of handling their own affairs.

A direct side effect of the limits put upon them by the various governments' own laws.

Don't like it? Give 'em back the due and unlimited sovereignty that they are entitled to, as the original inhabitants of this land.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle
Fast forward to 2014. Now we have a tribe in Seneca and Cayuga asking local county courts to get involved and settle an intra-tribal leadership question for them! I call that despicable in the other direction! I guess they are not capable of handling their own affairs.
A direct side effect of the limits put upon them by the various governments own laws.

Don't like it? Give 'em back the due and unlimited sovereignty that they are entitled to, as the original inhabitants of this land.
OMG. That is impossible. Shaking my head in amazement.

Judge Bender in today's FL Times:
Quote:
Bender said the Cayuga Nation has a great deal of responsibility for the situation by its failure to set forth the specific requirements or procedures to change leadership within the Nation.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle
Fast forward to 2014. Now we have a tribe in Seneca and Cayuga asking local county courts to get involved and settle an intra-tribal leadership question for them! I call that despicable in the other direction! I guess they are not capable of handling their own affairs.
A direct side effect of the limits put upon them by the various governments own laws.

Don't like it? Give 'em back the due and unlimited sovereignty that they are entitled to, as the original inhabitants of this land.
OMG. That is impossible. Shaking my head in amazement.

OMG, yourself. What's impossible?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle
Fast forward to 2014. Now we have a tribe in Seneca and Cayuga asking local county courts to get involved and settle an intra-tribal leadership question for them! I call that despicable in the other direction! I guess they are not capable of handling their own affairs.
A direct side effect of the limits put upon them by the various governments own laws. Don't like it? Give 'em back the due and unlimited sovereignty that they are entitled to, as the original inhabitants of this land.
OMG. That is impossible. Shaking my head in amazement.
OMG, yourself. What's impossible?
Explain to me what unlimited sovereignty for the tribes would mean. How would that change America from what it is now? I seriously do not understand what you see happening with unlimited sovereignty for them.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:42 AM


Here, this will explain everything: https://www.google.com/
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Here, this will explain everything: https://www.google.com/
LOL. You are a real piece of work. You have no answers and can't explain anything.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:51 AM

I refer you back to the past two Tribal News threads.

I've explained to you and others, in great detail, my feelings on the subject. The fact that you're too intractably lazy to reference that information, is a reflection upon you, alone, no one else.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
I refer you back to the past two Tribal News threads.

I've explained to you and others, in great detail, my feelings on the subject. The fact that you're too intractably lazy to references that information, is a reflection upon you alone, not me.
LOL. Great detail. That is total baloney. You say they should have total sovereignty. I asked what that would mean to America and you give no more answers. You have explained nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nada.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:06 PM


And I suggested that you get off your lazy arse and look up the definition, research the ramifications, and draw your own informed conclusions/opinions. I guarantee that you've done NONE of the heavy lifting, clearly indicative of someone who utters as many in-congruencies as you do.

Now, Man-Up!
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

And I suggested that you get off your lazy arse and look up the definition, research the ramifications, and draw your own informed conclusions/opinions.

Now, Man-Up!
Definition of what? Sovereignty? I am been trying for months to get you to answer that question and you refuse.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:14 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo

And I suggested that you get off your lazy arse and look up the definition, research the ramifications, and draw your own informed conclusions/opinions.

Now, Man-Up!
Definition of what? Sovereignty?

That and everything else you've already drawn pre-conclusions about.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And I suggested that you get off your lazy arse and look up the definition, research the ramifications, and draw your own informed conclusions/opinions.

Now, Man-Up!
Definition of what? Sovereignty?

That and everything else you've already drawn pre-conclusions about.
God. you are such a waste of typing.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle
Fast forward to 2014. Now we have a tribe in Seneca and Cayuga asking local county courts to get involved and settle an intra-tribal leadership question for them! I call that despicable in the other direction! I guess they are not capable of handling their own affairs.
A direct side effect of the limits put upon them by the various governments own laws.

Don't like it? Give 'em back the due and unlimited sovereignty that they are entitled to, as the original inhabitants of this land.
OMG. That is impossible. Shaking my head in amazement.
OMG, yourself. What's impossible?

Won't answer the question, will you?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The fact that he may have been a veteran, is completely irrelevant to the events described (unless of course, your intentions are simply to stir emotional resentment). Still irrelevant.
Then so is the point that you brought up that you served in the US Navy.

What in the world are you talking about, NOW? ? ? crazy

Ot this question?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Cat got your tongue?
You think I have to jump to reply every time you post? You are beyond contemptible in so many ways. As VM said, it must really suck to be stuck in the year 1491.

Got a taste of your own bitter medicine. How does it feel?

Re. 1491: If that's the case, why are you the ones that are promulgating the same despicable treatment of the American Indians that began AFTER 1491. whistle

Or, even these two.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: kyle585
The Union Springs scene is now secured, with the sides agreeing to have the building locked until an agreement could be reached. Gould said he was contacted by the Unity Council Sunday night about their intentions to move in with paperwork that they say gives them control. The sheriff arranged a meeting with leaders of both sides at 6 a.m. Monday, and it appeared they had come to an understanding. About an hour later, though, fighting broke out and 911 was contacted. Heath said one member of the Unity Council was taken to the hospital with an injury.
This so-called sovereign nation cannot even keep the peace amongst its few members without outside help. How sad is that?

And that distinguishes them from ANY other sovereign nation... HOW, exactly?

Let's try THIS one.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
A number of posters on here have said why are we dragging the Indians to court all the time. Well now it is two Indian groups fighting each other as they have been doing for 10,000 years! Only now it is costing the USA money as they use our courts!

Oh, Really?... WHERE?

Or, you can have a go at that one.


Are you beginning to get the point now? Why should anyone cooperate with your Q & As, when you won't play by the same rules that you demand of others?

But, hey, just like the last time that I threw out a long list of questions that you refused to entertain, you'll either change the subject, attack me on some other front, or say flatly, that you refuse to refer to the linked information that I provided for you to easily refer to.

Prove me wrong. I challenge you to.

Hypocrite.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 12:58 PM


Pigeon Chess:
Refers to having a pointless debate with somebody utterly ignorant of the subject matter, but standing on a dogmatic position that cannot be moved with any amount of education or logic, but who always proclaims victory.

Origin:
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory." -- Scott D. Weitzenhoffer
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 03:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Prove me wrong. I challenge you to.

Hypocrite.
You are wrong and a total idiot. You refuse to answer my reasonable questions so I refuse to respond to your meaningless gibberish.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
... But, hey, just like the last time that I threw out a long list of questions that you refused to entertain, you'll either change the subject, attack me on some other front, or say flatly, that you refuse to refer to the linked information that I provided for you to easily refer to.
You are wrong and a total idiot. You refuse to answer my reasonable questions so I refuse to respond to your meaningless gibberish.

Wow! You managed to basically, cram all three possible responses into one big, fat evasive dodge. Well done, Squire. Well done! grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
But, hey, just like the last time that I threw out a long list of questions that you refused to entertain, you'll either change the subject, attack me on some other front, or say flatly, that you refuse to refer to the linked information that I provided for you to easily refer to.

Wow! You managed to basically, cram all three possible responses into one big, fat evasive dodge. Well done, Sir, Well done! grin
You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer. You don't really believe all this garbage you post, do you? I don't think so.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
But, hey, just like the last time that I threw out a long list of questions that you refused to entertain, you'll either change the subject, attack me on some other front, or say flatly, that you refuse to refer to the linked information that I provided for you to easily refer to.
Why is it necessary for you to provide a long list of linked information for me to refer to? Are you that incapable of explaining your position? I guess it is in your case when your position is on quick sand and constantly changing.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer. You don't really believe all this garbage you post, do you? I don't think so.

Let's see... how many lies have I caught you in, just this week alone? Let's just round it down to 7 (including THIS one).








Now, you were SAYING?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
But, hey, just like the last time that I threw out a long list of questions that you refused to entertain, you'll either change the subject, attack me on some other front, or say flatly, that you refuse to refer to the linked information that I provided for you to easily refer to.
Why is it necessary for you to provide a long list of linked information for me to refer to? Are you that incapable of explaining your position? I guess it is in your case when your position is on quick sand and constantly changing.

Because you're a demonstrable liar and likely a borderline idiot, and you haven't enough sense to stop screwing with people who are at least twice your intellectual equal.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer. You don't really believe all this garbage you post, do you? I don't think so.

Let's see... how many lies have I caught you in, just this week alone? Let's just round it down to 7 (including THIS one).

Now, you were SAYING?
This week? I noticed they are all from 2/13/14. I furthermore noticed that almost all of my questions you answer with questions of your own. That gets us nowhere.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer. You don't really believe all this garbage you post, do you? I don't think so.

Let's see... how many lies have I caught you in, just this week alone? Let's just round it down to 7 (including THIS one).

Now, you were SAYING?
This week? I noticed they are all from 2/13/14. I furthermore noticed that almost all of my questions you answer with questions of your own. That gets us nowhere.

I swear, you got a kink in your Slinky. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

At least you don't deny being a pathological liar. Unless of course you actually CAN resist the urge, but choose to do so anyway. crazy
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
At least you don't deny being a pathological liar.
I am not a liar of any type. I just chose not to respond to all of your idiotic childish comments.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
I swear, you got a kink in your Slinky. Go back and re-read what I wrote. y CAN resist the urge, but choose to do so anyway. crazy
I can barely stand to read the garbage you post once without reading it again.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 07:47 PM

http://fingerlakesdailynews.com/news/details.cfm?clientid=16&id=127621#.U3v3LSjb7xo

Developing : Cayuga Suit Tossed A Second Time In As Many Days
5/20/2014 4:05:37 PM
By Joe Nittler

It's a one-two punch and a knock out. Tuesday morning Cayuga County Court Judge Thomas Leone followed the Monday example of Seneca County Judge Dennis Bender and dismissed a lawsuit brought against the Cayuga Nations Unity Council by Clint Halftown who still says he is the legal federal representative for the Nation. The two sides in recent weeks have been fighting over control of assets like the Lake Side Trading Stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs. In his ruling today Judge Leone said in essence the court can not , " interfere with the nation's self-government and sovereignty". We have made calls to both sides. No response as of 4pm.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
In his ruling today Judge Leone said in essence the court can not , " interfere with the nation's self-government and sovereignty".
Apparently the tribe already has its sovereignty. So I don't know what Timbo is hollering about all the time! grin
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
At least you don't deny being a pathological liar.
I am not a liar of any type. I just chose not to respond to all of your idiotic childish comments.

Then why did you say this? "You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer."

Furthermore, they were questions, NOT comments. It would appear that you believe that only your questions have the virtue of legitimacy.

Did I mention that you are also a raging hypocrite?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
At least you don't deny being a pathological liar.
I am not a liar of any type. I just chose not to respond to all of your idiotic childish comments.
Then why did you say this? "You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer."
Why? Simple. Because it is true.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 08:06 PM

AUBURN | The remaining lawsuit lodged against one faction of the divided Cayuga Indian Nation has been dismissed.

On Tuesday morning in Cayuga County Court, Judge Thomas Leone granted the Unity Council's motion to dismiss the lawsuit brought against the council by Clint Halftown, who claims he is the nation's federal representative.

The reactions of the more than 100 people seated inside the courtroom were mixed, ranging from disappointment to elation.

Members of the Unity Council, who mostly donned traditional tribal garb, smiled as they exchanged handshakes and hugs. Supporters of Halftown, many wearing red shirts lettered with the words "Cayuga Nation," shook their heads and frowned.

The decision was issued after about an hour's worth of arguments from the plaintiffs and defendants — and one day after Seneca County Judge Dennis Bender dismissed a similar lawsuit filed by Halftown against the Unity Council in regard to nation-owned businesses and offices in Seneca Falls.

David DeBruin, Halftown's attorney, asked Leone to file a preliminary injunction ordering the Unity Council to stay away from nation-owned businesses in Union Springs until the Cayuga Nation's leadership dispute is resolved.

Failing to do so, DeBruin warned, would allow anyone to act as they pleased under the guise of leading the nation.

"You are essentially left with a lawless situation where people can seize property by force or threats," he said. "Chaos will reign."

Stating that both sides were prepared to work with the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs to solve the "deep dispute," DeBruin asked Leone to keep Halftown in place as the nation's federal representative. That temporary placement, he argued, was supported by the BIA in a recent letter.

"In terms of the status quo ... Mr. Halftown remains the representative," he said.

In the May 15 letter, Franklin Keel, director of the BIA's eastern regional office, told the attorneys its 2011 decision to no longer recognize Halftown as the nation's federal representative was overruled on procedural grounds.

The decision, Keel said, was made "without expressing any view on the merits of the underlying dispute, the current leadership of the nation, or the identity or scope of authority of any individual to represent or take action on behalf of the nation."

Although Halftown would be allowed to retain "drawdown authority" for federal grants, Keel stressed the BIA would remain neutral until the nation asked for guidance.

In his argument, Joseph Heath, the Unity Council's attorney, asked Leone to dismiss the case — stating that filing a preliminary injunction could not be done without unlawfully determining who leads the Cayuga Nation.

"An injunction is an inequitable relief," he said. "This is an internal matter."

In addition, Heath stated that the defendants, aside from "John Does 1-100," were comprised of three members of the nation's council and three clan mothers, all of whom provide leadership to the Cayuga Nation.

"This is not just a bunch of individuals," he said. "This is a government."

According to David DeBruin, the plaintiffs' attorney, the leadership dispute dates back nine years.

Since 2005, DeBruin said the Cayuga Nation has debated whether Clint Halftown, Tim Twoguns and Gary Wheeler were properly removed from the nation's council, an ousting DeBruin asserts was not done correctly.

The conflict continued into June of 2011, when clan mothers reportedly stripped Halftown of his title as the tribe's federal representative and as executive officer of Cayuga Enterprises. About two months later, the BIA approved the Unity Council's decision — agreeing they would no longer recognize Halftown as the tribe's federal representative.

In January, however, the Interior Board of Indian Appeals overturned the BIA's 2011 decision — determining that Halftown remained the Cayuga Nation's federal representative.

Four months later, tensions between the opposing factions again boiled over when the Unity Council tried to take control of nation-owned businesses and offices in Union Springs and Seneca Falls.

Halftown and his supporters argued the Unity Council used keys stolen from the nation's office building to seize control of the nation's Lake Side Trading stores. The Unity Council, claiming leadership, said its actions were justified.

As the gas stations opened and closed, police in both counties were repeatedly called to Seneca Falls and Union Springs to keep the peace.

In the midst of the struggle for leadership, Halftown and other Cayuga Nation members filed civil lawsuits in both Cayuga and Seneca county courts. Judges in both counties filed preliminary injunctions early in May, ordering the plaintiffs to show cause during later hearings.

After a lengthy hearing, Judge Bender issued a written decision Monday dismissing the lawsuit, finding that there was no way to intervene in the ongoing dispute without unlawfully deciding who leads the Cayuga Nation.

One day later, Judge Leone made the same decision — dismissing the remaining lawsuit against the Unity Council.

Determining that deciding the plaintiff's case could not be done without taking a stake in the Cayuga Nation's ongoing leadership dispute, Leone found a preliminary injunction ordering the Unity Council to stay away from nation-owned businesses in Union Springs was "unauthorized and inappropriate."

"The court finds, in this instance, it can not determine if plaintiffs, including the nation, had the authority to commence this action or if a viable cause of action exists, because determination of the facts ... would require the court to improperly interfere with the nation's self-government and sovereignty," he said.

But the dismissal, Leone said, does not mean he condones the confrontations between the opposing factions.

"The court joins with Judge Bender ... in advising that the parties settle this matter in a civilized manner and in accordance with the peace, power and righteousness of the nation law," he said.

In a statement issued Monday, Halftown stated he planned to appeal Bender's decision.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
At least you don't deny being a pathological liar.
I am not a liar of any type. I just chose not to respond to all of your idiotic childish comments.
Then why did you say this? "You have never ever thrown out a long list of questions I have refused to answer."
Why? Simple. Because it is true.

THIS proves beyond any doubt, that you are not only a liar, but a coward, as well.


Grow up, Kyle.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
"The court joins with Judge Bender ... in advising that the parties settle this matter in a civilized manner and in accordance with the peace, power and righteousness of the nation law," he said.
The Indians have been making war with each other for 10,000 years before Columbus arrived and the shocking fighting continues to this day. Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Grow up, Kyle.
I am winning and you don't like it one bit. LOL It must hurt to be beat with someone who only has half your intellectual capacity. ROFLMAO
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 10:14 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Here, this will explain everything: https://www.google.com/
LOL. You are a real piece of work. You have no answers and can't explain anything.
Whoa Kyle. Don’t blow it off. Timbo actually finally answered your question of what he wants us to do.

Instead you ask it what unlimited sovereignty means.

Its reply of Google is as close as can be.

A return to lawlessness and tribal warfare, ethnic cleansing with no accountability and a make believe world as if they had won the war. That is what it wants regardless of how idiotic and childish it is.

See why I stopped feeding it?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/20/14 11:14 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.

Is this what you mean when you disingenuously hide behind the term "Equality Under the Law"? Oh, I see... you mean WHITE MAN'S Law.

I was wrong... you ARE a bonafide racist.

It makes sense that you'd eventually put a noose around somebody's neck. I'm just a little surprised that you stuck your own in one. Enjoy the fit.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.

Is this what you mean when you disingenuously hide behind the term "Equality Under the Law"? Oh, I see... you mean WHITE MAN'S Law.

I was wrong... you ARE a bonafide racist.

It makes sense that you'd eventually put a noose around somebody's neck. I'm just a little surprised that you stuck your own in one. Enjoy the fit.
I have given up trying to have a serious discussion with you. I posted that comment because I knew how much it would upset you. From now on you will only exist as a butt of my jokes. ROFLMAO
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
See why I stopped feeding it?
I see indeed. I was hoping to feed him so much that he would get too obese to get to the keyboard. But maybe I will now take the opposite approach and try starving him to death. grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Here, this will explain everything: https://www.google.com/
LOL. You are a real piece of work. You have no answers and can't explain anything.
Whoa Kyle. Don’t blow it off. Timbo actually finally answered your question of what he wants us to do.

Instead you ask it what unlimited sovereignty means.

Its reply of Google is as close as can be.
He is such a racist. He thinks Indians are better than anyone else. Maybe he knows one or more intimately? whistle
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
A return to lawlessness and tribal warfare, ethnic cleansing with no accountability and a make believe world as if they had won the war.
Ah the wonderful world of 1491. How wonderful it most of been.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Here, this will explain everything: https://www.google.com/
LOL. You are a real piece of work. You have no answers and can't explain anything.
Whoa Kyle. Don’t blow it off. Timbo actually finally answered your question of what he wants us to do.

Instead you ask it what unlimited sovereignty means.

Its reply of Google is as close as can be.
He is such a racist. He thinks Indians are better than anyone else. Maybe he knows one or more intimately? whistle

Quite the opposite. You see, I'm not the one embracing manifest destiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny

Say what you will, you've finally pulled back the hooded white sheet, to reveal the true racism in the room.

I suspect that you'd be much happier living your "bromance" with Jed and Jethro Richie and Smitty down in Tennessee. I'm sure it's only a matter of time. That would solve all your problems, wouldn't it? Lower taxes, No "Injuns" and probably the lowest expectations of academic skills in the entire country. I have no doubt that you'd be right at home with the rest of the Peckerwoods.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 12:48 PM

I am ignoring you and your ridiculous unworkable desire to return to the year 1491.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 01:13 PM


I'm curious, have you ever in your life, had an independent thought of your own, that wasn't spoon-fed to you by someone else?

How very sad for you.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

I'm curious, have you ever in your life, had an independent thought of your own, that wasn't spoon-fed to you by someone else?
I am ignoring your attempt to use your propaganda to influence my independent thought.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
I am ignoring you and your ridiculous unworkable desire to return to the year 1491.
Yes Kyle. If you could just convince Betty Lou to move. No federally recognized tribes and IT finally acknowledges taxes are lower after losing that argument. Property taxes are about one fifth, utilities are about half, but the combined average sales taxes are a penny more. That one penny results in NO school taxes, NO state income taxes, balanced budget and one third of the bond debt was paid off over the last two years. So the well educated people here elect politicians that do their job as opposed to those misrepresentatives at the State level in NY. A jaunt to Kings Mountain, NC and we can educate those dealing with fee to trust by the Catawba.

But replying to IT even telling it is being ignored continues to feed its lonely need for attention and vent its hate. It will never accept that multitudes of independent thinkers disagree with its promotion of inequality under the law. Factoids exposed and there is no Timbo Treaty and all it has left is frustrated insults and name calling. It is Utterly a waste of time and space. It is a void that got sucked into the black hole. Specifically the Rabbit Hole in its imaginary world.

And after a year of answering your question with questions "it" finally answered your question. But "unlimited sovereignty" is, of course, idiotic and childish. "It's" pompous intellect is exposed. HAH !!!! Yes indeed, "it" went down the rabbit hole and is lost.

The issue is political, not racial. Most NA are not tribal and many of those who are chose to not live on reservations where they would be under tribal sovereignty. "It" promotes a scenario that counters the wishes of many Native Americans.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I am ignoring you and your ridiculous unworkable desire to return to the year 1491.
Yes Kyle. If you could just convince Betty Lou to move. No federally recognized tribes and IT finally acknowledges taxes are lower after losing that argument. Property taxes are about one fifth, utilities are about half, but the combined average sales taxes are a penny more. That one penny results in NO school taxes, NO state income taxes, balanced budget and one third of the bond debt was paid off over the last two years. So the well educated people here elect politicians that do their job as opposed to those misrepresentatives at the State level in NY.
Oh I understand that taxes are lower in almost every other state than NY. I have reasons why I can't move but he definitely lost that argument with you. His trying to defend NY taxes was laughable.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The issue is political, not racial. Most NA are not tribal and many of those who are chose to not live on reservations where they would be under tribal sovereignty. "It" promotes a scenario that counters the wishes of many Native Americans.
He posted that he served in the US Navy. He further posted that NA serve in the US military about proportionate to their numbers. I feel confident that those who serve are the enlightened ones very few of who live on reservations under tribal sovereignty.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
But replying to IT even telling it is being ignored continues to feed its lonely need for attention and vent its hate.
His level of frustration and hate must be appalling. I hope he never finds out who I am. whistle
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

I'm curious, have you ever in your life, had an independent thought of your own, that wasn't spoon-fed to you by someone else?

How very sad for you.
I'm curious have you ever lead a life away from the computer and had a thought that wasn't spoon fed to you by google ?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The issue is political, not racial. Most NA are not tribal and many of those who are chose to not live on reservations where they would be under tribal sovereignty. "It" promotes a scenario that counters the wishes of many Native Americans.
He posted that he served in the US Navy. He further posted that NA serve in the US military about proportionate to their numbers. I feel confident that those who serve are the enlightened ones very few of who live on reservations under tribal sovereignty.
All citizens including those which live on reservations are subject to the draft. Tribal sovereignty only applies to the tribal government and not individuals. Enlisting is often the most desirable avenue to escape reservation life and the percentage of Native American enlistees is very high even without an active draft. At least he would have had to have a high school diploma, even though he was just passed on, to join the Navy. But that is based on an assumption that he did not lie about that too.
Posted by: tubby

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 05:56 PM

Don't forget it has also owned it's own company that employed many freelancers and it is also a linguist.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Don't forget it has also owned it's own company that employed many freelancers and it is also a linguist.
Could be. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/14/nyregion/smuggled-aliens-now-cross-mohawk-land.html
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
I hope he never finds out who I am. whistle
I hope it never finds out who I am too. LOL
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/21/14 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: tubby
Don't forget it has also owned it's own company that employed many freelancers and it is also a linguist.
Could be. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/14/nyregion/smuggled-aliens-now-cross-mohawk-land.html

For a bunch of folk who claim to be ignoring someone supposedly so "worthless", you sure have choked this (and several other) threads with virtually nothing but vitriol, aimed squarely in my direction.

Next, you'll probably start complaining that I'm not paying my fair share of the taxes, while building a three-story mansion in your pointy little heads. grin

I'm gonna cancel my cable service, you Idjits offer more entertainment, than a person could watch in a lifetime. Have at it, I'm makin' popcorn.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.

Brain numbingly racist, blabbering like a Euro-centric colonist. Isn't that powdered wig getting itchy Kyle?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.
Brain numbingly racist, blabbering like a Euro-centric colonist. Isn't that powdered wig getting itchy Kyle?
I posted that just to get under Timbo's skin. I am sure it works just as well for you. grin
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.
Brain numbingly racist, blabbering like a Euro-centric colonist. Isn't that powdered wig getting itchy Kyle?
I posted that just to get under Timbo's skin. I am sure it works just as well for you. grin

... perfectly illustrating the consistent level of maturity that you exhibit throughout your "discourses".

I'd be curious to know if five million Native Americans would be as "entertained" by your sense of "wit", as you so easily are.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Thank God we now have white men to keep them somewhat under control.
Brain numbingly racist, blabbering like a Euro-centric colonist. Isn't that powdered wig getting itchy Kyle?
I posted that just to get under Timbo's skin. I am sure it works just as well for you. grin
... perfectly illustrating the consistent level of maturity that you exhibit throughout your "discourses".
As I told you yesterday I have given up trying to have a mature conversation with you. Google that. mad
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 09:49 AM


Deal with it.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Deal with it.
I don't have to deal with it. I can ignore your nonsense.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 10:13 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Deal with it.
I don't have to deal with it. I can ignore your nonsense.

Promises, promises. crazy
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/22/14 03:53 PM

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archi...on-city-casino/
Seneca tribe would operate the Johnson City casino

The Seneca Nation of Indians are partnering with the Broome County casino project known as Traditions at the Glen, the development team confirmed on Thursday.

The Seneca Gaming Corp. would be one of at least four Native American entities trying to break into the commercial gaming market opening in New York, but the only in-state tribe. All the tribes are proposing to be gaming floor operators.

Walsh said the team chose the Seneca among about 13 possible operators considered. The Seneca run three casinos on tribal property in Niagara Falls, Buffalo and Salamanca. The tribe also runs other businesses, including a construction arm that built a government facility in Schenectady recently.

"We have been waiting on that "wow" factor and we have finally got it! They have some of the same ideals as us with giving back to our community and hiring/buying local," said Walsh. He pegs his project at $150 million and says it would add 1,100 jobs. Walsh said that state environmental studies required for construction are nearly complete.

Two New England nations, the Mohegans and the Mashantucket Pequots, have partnered on proposed Catskills casino projects and the Chickasaw of Oklahoma are teaming with the group proposing a casino near Exit 23 of the Thruway in Albany.

[Note: they will think wow once the tribe applies for trust land; so much for tribal competition.]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/23/14 08:33 PM

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/...-rules-20140522
Battles Brewing Over Proposed Tribal-Recognition Rules
Some members of Congress fear the new rules might open up new avenues for tribal casinos or lead to fresh fights over historic lands.
• Follow on Twitter
May 22, 2014
The Interior Department announced Thursday its long-awaited new rules for granting federal recognition to Native American tribes—but some lawmakers are already seeking changes.

Some members of Congress and officials on the state and local levels have been warily bracing for the proposed rules. Many have been worried about how far and wide they might open up new avenues for tribal casinos. They also are worried the rules might erode state tax bases and lead to new battles over historic lands.

The new rules by Secretary of the Interior Sally Jewell and Assistant Secretary-Indian Affairs Kevin Washburn would represent the reformation of a 35-year-old process by which the Interior officially recognizes Indian tribes.

The federal government already recognizes 566 tribes—but only 17 of those have been recognized under this 35-year-old process, which the proposal is seeking to revise.

And, in fact, the proposed changes announced Thursday keep and incorporate a key feature floated in a draft plan in June to provide recognition to a tribe that can show "community and political influence/authority from 1934 to the present," rather than from as early as 1789 under existing rules.

The change would also eliminate the need for a petitioner to demonstrate that third parties identify them as a tribe from 1900 to the present.

Specifically, the rule change relates to the "Party 83 process" under Title 25 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Procedures for Establishing That an American Indian Group Exists as an Indian Tribe.

"President Obama believes that reforming the federal acknowledgment process will strengthen our important trust relationship with Indian tribes," said Jewell in a statement.

But the fear from some lawmakers and state and local politicians was that the new language devised by the Bureau of Indian Affairs could result in federal recognition for literally hundreds of tribes that for years have struggled and failed to receive that status—and could give them all the privileges that come with such recognition.

{Note” hundreds of gangs that do not qualify would be created to be a tribe and given political status as a tribe.]

Connecticut officials were among those who responded in a lukewarm way to Thursday's announcement. In a joint statement, Connecticut Gov. Dannel Malloy, Attorney General George Jepsen, U.S. Sens. Richard Blumenthal and Chris Murphy, and Reps. Rosa DeLauro, John Larson, Joe Courtney, Jim Himes, and Elizabeth Etsy called the proposed revisions "a step in the right direction."

"However, we believe additional changes and clarifications are necessary to ensure that Connecticut's interests are protected, and we will continue to work for their inclusion," they said.

The statement did not specify how they wanted it changed.

The Connecticut officials' reaction comes amid concerns about its potential impact on the state's current gambling agreement with the Mashantucket Pequot and Mohegan tribes—which are already operating casinos there—and could further erode the state's tax base.

The Eastern Pequot of North Stonington, the Golden Hill Paugussett of Colchester and Trumbull, and the Schaghticoke of Kent are reported to be among the tribes in that state that have been fighting for years to get federal recognition.

Federal recognition establishes the U.S. government as the trustee for tribal lands and resources and makes tribal members and governments eligible for federal budget assistance and program services. In short, this means the federal authorities would protect their sovereign status, their lands and tribal property, and their rights as a dependent nation.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/23/14 08:36 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2...e_during_o.html
READ THE COMMENTS click on url for whole story

For Oneida Nation's Halbritter, the power of sports and race hit home during Obama speech

Oneida Indian Nation Representative Ray Halbritter walked into the Baseball Hall of Fame Thursday on an invitation from the White House to hear President Barack Obama talk about tourism.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/24/14 12:38 AM

Quote:
Property taxes are about one fifth,


Less than that, I'm pretty sure. My last tax bill in SC was $8,300. That same $215K assessment (meaning market value there, and remembering that the assessment here is presumed to be the fair market value), would pay $1005.

$215K x .25 x $18.70/thous = Greene County tax

In another thread, I used the $17.10/thous figure from last year.

There are 4 Towns or Cities in Greene Cty: Greeneville, Mosheim and 2 others. All other places, such as Afton and Chuckey, are unincorporated (like the hamlet of Fayette, although that is in a Town. There is no Town of Afton), and the only property tax is the county tax. That is true of the area where you have bought, and where I have now rented. And there is no school tax, as we know. Iirc, that was around 60% of my old combined tax bill.

The tax on the 2 bd, 1 ba, with basement, on a half acre, that I just rented is $9950 x $18.70/thou. Market value is set as $39.8K, and would be reset if sold for a different price.

$39,800 is lower than it might bring upon sale, I think, and assessments/market valuations are as arbitrary and prone to error and influence there as they are here. The saving grace is that the average burden is low enough there so that the inherent unfairness of an assessment based system is at least bearable, even if one's assessment may be erroneously high.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/26/14 06:39 PM

Quote:
Not everything in this world is 100% fact as Timbo likes to insist upon.


You miss the problem. Actually, everything that is 100% factual is 100% factual. Timbo's problem, other than being stupid, is that he has no respect for facts. He's a compulsive liar. He's far worse than worthless; people like him are the only problem in this world.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/26/14 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Not everything in this world is 100% fact as Timbo likes to insist upon.

You miss the problem. Actually, everything that is 100% factual is 100% factual. Timbo's problem, other than being stupid, is that he has no respect for facts. He's a compulsive liar. He's far worse than worthless; people like him are the only problem in this world.

Your assessments are as scintillatingly thoughtful, as always. grin

As for the Kyle's unenlightened opinion... that which is, is indeed factual. Wether ones understands the facts, or not, is a different matter, altogether. Also, there are no varying degrees of fact. Something either is, or is not fact. Period
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/26/14 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith

You miss the problem. Actually, everything that is 100% factual is 100% factual. Timbo's problem, other than being stupid, is that he has no respect for facts. He's a compulsive liar. He's far worse than worthless; people like him are the only problem in this world.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/28/14 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Also, there are no varying degrees of fact. Something either is, or is not fact. Period


Originally Posted By: Timbo

The MOHAWK chief THAYENDANEGEA (known to Anglo-Americans as JOSEPH BRANT) was the most important Iroquois leader in the Revolutionary Era. He convinced four of the six Iroquois nations to join him in an alliance with the British and was instrumental in leading combined Indian, British, and Loyalist forces on punishing raids in western New York and Pennsylvania in 1778 and 1779.



Originally Posted By: Timbo
As a Wea Indian complained about the failed military alliance with the British, "In endeavoring to assist you it seems we have wrought our own ruin."



Originally Posted By: Timbo

Relying on support from SPANISH COLONISTS in New Orleans as well as assistance from the British at FORT DETROIT, varied native groups continued to resist Anglo-American incursions late into the 19th century.



Originally Posted By: Timbo

Most fought with the British, but all lost in the Peace which followed. The Preliminary Articles of Peace of 1782 did not mention the Native Americans at all. Brant was outraged that the British were selling out the tribes.The British failed to set aside areas which were promised by Treaties they had made with the tribes.


you sided with the british and lost FACT
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/28/14 08:21 AM


FACT: With the exception of the first one on that list, they are all citations, not quotations.

FACT: You have yet to make a point.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

FACT: With the exception of the first one on that list, they are all citations, not quotations.


they are all your posts
are you now saying your own posts are lacking true facts?

Originally Posted By: Timbo

FACT: You have yet to make a point.


the point is clear to everyone else
the 'tribes' side with the british and lost (your own posts state that)
when will you 'compensate' the british?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:18 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

FACT: With the exception of the first one on that list, they are all citations, not quotations.


they are all your posts
are you now saying your own posts are lacking true facts?

Originally Posted By: Timbo

FACT: You have yet to make a point.


the point is clear to everyone else
the 'tribes' side with the british and lost (your own posts state that)
when will you 'compensate' the british?

Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them? That's quite a point all right. crazy

I would say that everybody has the right to use whatever means at their disposal, to prevent future atrocities. And so would you, if the shoe were on the other foot.

Any more stupid comments?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?


your prior post showed that only 700 were killed in battle
keep backtracking...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?


the 'tribe' made the wrong decision to side with the british
blame yourself
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Any more stupid comments?


Jeezus Timbo. Now ya gone and done it. sick

Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Any more stupid comments?

your prior post showed that only 700 were killed in battle
keep backtracking...

Right on que, just as predicted. grin

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
I would say that everybody has the right to use whatever means at their disposal, to prevent future atrocities.


and what steps have you taken to stop current atrocities in your prior homeland that you left to come to the USA?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Any more stupid comments?


your own posts prove you wrong

the 'tribes' sided with the british and LOST
got it yet?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:48 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I would say that everybody has the right to use whatever means at their disposal, to prevent future atrocities.

and what steps have you taken to stop current atrocities in your prior homeland that you left to come to the USA?

Here... you forgot these.

Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Any more stupid comments?
your own posts prove you wrong
the 'tribes' sided with the british and LOST
got it yet?

Yeah? France lost to Germany. Africa, India and China lost to England. Europe lost to the Ottoman Empire. One third of the world lost to Rome and the Huns before that.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?


and how many hours will you need to 'volunteer' before you correct the wrongs of your past?

odd that you refuse to give your land back to the 'tribe' that you 'slaughtered'
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?

and how many hours will you need to 'volunteer' before you correct the wrongs of your past?

odd that you refuse to give your land back to the 'tribe' that you 'slaughtered'

Please, enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of me, my homeland and my place of residence, will you? LOL!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Any more stupid comments?
your own posts prove you wrong
the 'tribes' sided with the british and LOST
got it yet?

Yeah? France lost to Germany. Africa, India and China lost to England. Europe lost to the Ottoman Empire. One third of the world lost to Rome and the Huns before that.


and how much do you 'owe' all of them?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I would say that everybody has the right to use whatever means at their disposal, to prevent future atrocities.

and what steps have you taken to stop current atrocities in your prior homeland that you left to come to the USA?

Here... you forgot these.



do you refuse to realize the current atrocities happening in your prior homeland?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?
and how many hours will you need to 'volunteer' before you correct the wrongs of your past?

odd that you refuse to give your land back to the 'tribe' that you 'slaughtered'
Please, enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of me, my homeland and my place of residence, will you? LOL!
You are not a Native American so your or your ancestors has to come from someplace else. But in your usual fashion you refuse to answer any questions.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?
and how many hours will you need to 'volunteer' before you correct the wrongs of your past?

odd that you refuse to give your land back to the 'tribe' that you 'slaughtered'
Please, enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of me, my homeland and my place of residence, will you? LOL!
You are not a Native American so your or your ancestors has to come from someplace else. But in your usual fashion you refuse to answer any questions.

More more false assumptions, on your part.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/29/14 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, you mean the FACT that White Europeans slaughtered millions of Aboriginals and took their land from them?
and how many hours will you need to 'volunteer' before you correct the wrongs of your past? odd that you refuse to give your land back to the 'tribe' that you 'slaughtered'
Please, enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of me, my homeland and my place of residence, will you? LOL!
You are not a Native American so your or your ancestors has to come from someplace else. But in your usual fashion you refuse to answer any questions.
More more false assumptions, on your part.
Maybe but it is very difficult to debate a topic like this with someone who is not only a total blank slate themselves but furthermore refuses to tell you what their position on the topic is. It becomes an exercise in total futility.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/30/14 11:55 PM

You're wasting your time on a troll.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/31/14 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.
Yup there is no longer any doubt about it. What a num num he is.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/31/14 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

... Sayeth the psuedo-intellectual, flame baiter.
Posted by: secure white guy

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/31/14 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

... Sayeth the psuedo-intellectual, flame baiter.

Careful with these gun hoarding types, they tend to run a little hinky, and THAT kooky crank is especially thin-skinned:

"I’ve had 20 guns at once, including 6 handguns, plus rifles of various calibers, and shotguns. If forced to pick only ONE gun, it’d be a 12 guage pump, with 20 inch straight cylinder barrel. My mother would find it hard to miss with that, and she’s dead."


Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 05/31/14 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: secure white guy
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

... Sayeth the psuedo-intellectual, flame baiter.

Careful with these gun hoarding types, they tend to run a little hinky, and THAT kooky crank is especially thin-skinned:

"I’ve had 20 guns at once, including 6 handguns, plus rifles of various calibers, and shotguns. If forced to pick only ONE gun, it’d be a 12 guage pump, with 20 inch straight cylinder barrel. My mother would find it hard to miss with that, and she’s dead."

Not to worry, statistically speaking, with those figures, he's FAR more likely to shoot himself, than he is to shoot anyone else. grin

Then again, you never can be sure about someone clearly suffering from Norman Bates-like delusions.
crazy
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/03/14 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.


so true
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/03/14 01:52 PM

Bond v. United States upholds federalism principles which validate CERA’s lawsuit against the Oneida amended ROD.

One is that the King and the senate cannot ratify treaties which exceed the powers granted them in the Constitution such as removing state legislatures or overriding the Second amendment.

In this case, which has humorous overtones, a woman spread chemicals on her next door neighbor's door knob in an attempt to give her a rash as a payback for her husband getting her neighbor pregnant.

It was a domestic dispute in which the State of PA dealt with accordingly. DOJ Secretary Eric Holder wanted PA to prosecute under the chemical weapons treaty. PA told him that was stupid and maintained the right to uphold their own laws.

Regardless after PA was done, Eric Holder decided to prosecute anyway. I guess the executive branch has too much time on its hands being that they are not enforcing the Constitution and decided to violate it again.

The feds argument in NY is that the 1794 federal treaty federalized state reservations and the executive branch is now claiming plenary power, reserved to the legislative branch via common law, to override Carcieri.

Actually the DOI last round claimed such in response to Judge Kahn dismissing the 2008 ROD and requested the DOI to state what statutory power they had to create trust land in NYS. The 2013 AROD (amended record of decision) claims War Powers authority. Then the BIA issued a letter claiming they would place 13,000 acres into trust for the Oneida tribe some time after June 30 in accordance to the 2008 ROD.

There are at least two conflicts here. The DOI has no War Power authority in NYS and the 2008 ROD has already been dismissed. Plus there are three ongoing lawsuits against the AROD and the executive branch is trying to override the judicial branch.

The previous Bond ruling was that individuals can sue arguing the Tenth Amendment which should uphold our NYS argument validating the Hawaii ruling that the Feds can’t take State sovereign land. One has to actually read the Hawaii ruling to understand it involves much more than explaining an apology resolution does not grant federal authority to take state sovereign lands.

A synopsis of Bond is available at http://www.heritage.org/research/reports...he-treaty-power

Michigan v. Bay Mills authorized tribal sovereign immunity when the tribe built a casino on what Michigan alleged was not Indian land. Michigan had already granted the tribe a compact and the lands were purchased with land claim settlement money. One has to always establish land status first or you will always lose. If Harris Beech does not argue the Treaty of Albany, they will lose.
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/michigan-v-bay-mills-indian-community/

Land status is everything and the federal government has no rights to take state sovereign land, period. The first action to allow feds to acquire state land was to allow about ten acres creating Washington D.C. in which to conduct business. But this is not a taking because as per the Constitution such are enclaves allowed to do business such as military bases or post offices and the lands revert back to the states when such is no longer used.

The colony states never had any federal land.

The first action of Congress was the 1787 Northwest Ordinance which established a government for the Northwest Territory, outlined the process for admitting a new state to the Union, and guaranteed that newly created states would be equal to the original thirteen states. Considered one of the most important legislative acts of the Confederation Congress, the Northwest Ordinance also protected civil liberties and outlawed slavery in the new territories.

The federal government obligation is to divest itself of ALL its lands making all states equal. That is the issue coming to a head in the western states and Bundy was in the right as evidenced by a case relating to a farmer 40 miles north of him. I just can't think of the case at the moment.

In fact I am out of time.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/03/14 02:19 PM


Not so fast, Pilgrim.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/06/02/thoughts-on-bond-v-united-states/

Today’s Supreme Court decision in Bond v. United States largely avoids the big constitutional issue that was the original focus of the case: the scope of the treaty power. Carol Anne Bond had been prosecuted by the federal government for violating 18 U.S.C. Section 229, the federal statute implementing the Chemical Weapons Convention, which bans the use of “chemical weapons.” Bond had tried to use toxic substances to harm another woman who had been having an affair with Bond’s husband, by coating her mailbox and doorknob with them.

The implementing statute bans the use and possession of all “chemical weapons” and very broadly defines that category to include any “toxic chemical and its precursors, except where intended for a purpose not prohibited under this chapter as long as the type and quantity is consistent with such a purpose.” The excepted purposes are “any peaceful purpose related to an industrial, agricultural, research, medical, or pharmaceutical activity or other activity.” Despite this extremely broad language, the Court avoided the issue of whether the law falls within the scope of the treaty power by concluding that Bond’s actions do not actually ban what Bond did. This enables the Court to avoid the difficult treaty power issue: whether treaties can authorize Congress to legislate beyond the scope of its other enumerated powers.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/03/14 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

so true
So extremely true. The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.

Of course here, rather than dealing with the link I posted, it finds another who does not grasp the ruling. The FACT that SCOTUS ruled 9 to 0 against Eric Holder shows it obviously to be a waste of time and space.
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/bond-v-united-states-2/
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/03/14 09:34 PM

Quote:
The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.


It displays an interesting combination of stupidity and dishonesty.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/03/14 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

so true
So extremely true. The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.

Of course here, rather than dealing with the link I posted, it finds another who does not grasp the ruling. The FACT that SCOTUS ruled 9 to 0 against Eric Holder shows it obviously to be a waste of time and space.
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/bond-v-united-states-2/

Does anybody else find it the least bit interesting that a strict constitutional originalist, completely disagrees with your hypocritical position on the issue? whistle
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/04/14 11:03 PM

http://www.indianz.com/News/2014/013895.asp?print=1
Doug George-Kanentiio: Bad land claim settlement for Mohawk
Tuesday, June 3, 2014

The May 30 announcement by the St. Regis Tribal Council that it had reached a "settlement" with New York State is one of the strangest in Native land claims history.

The settlement begins with a bold lie: that of the three Mohawk governing councils at Akwesasne, this most factionalized of Native communities, one-the New York State created St. Regis Tribal Council -has decided that it would unilaterally bring a "forever" end to all Mohawk claims against the US and the State without consultation, consensus or approval of the Mohawk Nation Council or the Canadian based Mohawk Council of Akwesasne.

Never mind that there are over 40,000 Mohawks living on seven territories: Ganienkeh, Kanesatake, Kahnawake, Tyendinaga, Wahta, Ohsweken and Akwesasne and none of them, with the exception of a few Tribal officials, knew anything about the agreement. Their opinions were never solicited nor is there any provision for their approval in a settlement which wipes out their valid claims against the US and New York for the blatant theft of over 9,000,000 acres of aboriginal Mohawk territory and the forcible removal of their ancestors from our homelands.

That the Tribal Council would assume it has the authority, never given, to represent all Mohawks on this most vital and delicate of issues is nothing short of pure arrogance without basis in history or fact.

Yet New York State will go ahead and enter into the settlement since it maintains that a single signature by any governing agency located on Mohawk territory is sufficient to extinguish all Mohawk claims which was its exact position in 1797 when Joseph Brant betrayed all Mohawks by unilaterally signing away our native lands when it was abundantly clear to the Americans that he had no such authority.

Since then the Mohawks have lived on restricted reservations, confined at times by force of arms by a vindictive New York which has taken a hostile, active role in opposing the unification of the Mohawks on any issue particularly land and jurisdiction. Hence, the creation of the St. Regis Tribal Council in 1892 by the State Legislature and the pouring of millions of dollars in support to that colonial entity.

It is therefore no surprise that a State agency, the Tribe, would be given the power by the US to once again cede all of Mohawk lands for less than a pittance and a weird pittance it is. In the May agreement the Tribe agrees to the following:

-elevate a county, St. Lawrence, to equal jurisdictional status with a supposed "sovereign" tribal entity

-agrees to abide by all county, state and federal regulations on lands returned to the "Tribe"

-agrees to pay $4,000,000 annually and forever to St. Lawrence County with additional money to be given to nearby Franklin County

-agrees to pay nearly $4,000,000 more to St. Lawrence and Franklin counties from its casino operation

-agrees to compensate both counties for lost tax revenues and school fees on lands returned to the "Tribe"

-agrees to surrender any claim on the highly lucrative hydro electricity generating dam on contested lands in St. Lawrence County

-agrees to abandon any liability claims against St. Lawrence County and New York State for the generations long extraction of natural resources on contested Mohawk lands and despite the enormous financial benefits both the county and state have profited from those lands

-agrees to pay the New York Power Authority millions of dollars in "reduced" electrical rates despite the fact that NYPA uses Mohawk resources (both land and water)

-surrenders any right to have St. Lawrence County or New York to do environmental assessments or clean up contaminated soils and water on Mohawk territory

-agrees to waive and surrender any claim to hold the county, New York State or the US federal governments liable in any way for the displacement of Mohawk people, the subsequent harm to culture and health or in any way provide compensation to any Mohawk entity for such harm

As is well known, and elementary, in any negotiation that what is not expressly cited is considered excluded. So the Tribe, in another strange decision, decided not to protect Mohawk jurisdiction or freedom from external taxation. The Tribe made no mention of the vital trade and commerce issues nor did it exempt itself from the criminal or civil laws of either county or state.

It is hard to see what exactly benefits the Tribe in this very bad agreement. The Tribe may get 3,000 plus acres of land but only under highly restrictive conditions. It gets $2,000,000 a year from the NYPA but must immediately pay that back in hydro fees. If New York, the real culprit, gives anything at all it is from money the Tribe gives to the state under the provisions of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act.

So the odd, disturbing and outright bad agreement awaits the signature of a Tribal official. But which one of the three "trustees" would sign such a deplorable agreement when it provokes more internal dissension and will spark years of litigation?

Which trustee will sign away the birthright of all Mohawks and wipe out the seventh generation? And which one will be condemned by history for doing so?

Doug George-Kanentiio, Akwesasne Mohawk, is the former editor of the journal Akwesasne Notes. A founding member of the Native American Journalists Association he served on the Board of Trustees for the National Museum of the American Indian. He is the author of many books and articles about aboriginal people including "Iroquois on Fire".
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/05/14 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.

It displays an interesting combination of stupidity and dishonesty.
Hello VM: I know you wisely have the forum fool on ignore and cannot read its ignorance. I have not done so merely because its replies are so humorous. Its latest comeback challenging a unanimous 9 to 0 SCOTUS ruling posted two days ago questions:

Does anybody else find it the least bit interesting that a strict constitutional originalist, completely disagrees with your hypocritical position on the issue?

Of course every time it cannot counter a fact it deflects with a snide derogatory question with an implication that anyone disagreeing with its ignorance is wrong. Poor Bimbo, nobody else found it the least bit interesting. It obviously did not read the ruling and could not comprehend it if it did. So it finds someone else it agrees with so if anyone proved it wrong, it would claim it was not him, but the other guy. Heaven forbid it ever be proven wrong, like it has been hundreds of times.

See the footnote on page 9 of Justice Scalia's Bond opinion.

"The Congress cannot, by legislation, enlarge the federal jurisdiction, nor can it be enlarged under the treaty making power."

Bimbo, who strives toward unlimited tribal sovereignty, thinks it knows better. LOL
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/05/14 06:23 PM

Quote:

Of course every time it cannot counter a fact it deflects with a snide derogatory question with an implication that anyone disagreeing with its ignorance is wrong. Poor Bimbo, nobody else found it the least bit interesting. It obviously did not read the ruling and could not comprehend it if it did. So it finds someone else it agrees with so if anyone proved it wrong, it would claim it was not him, but the other guy. Heaven forbid it ever be proven wrong, like it has been hundreds of times.


It doesn't know much, doesn't want to, or isn't able to, learn much, and thinks it knows everything.

It's a bad combination of behaviors and disabilities, which render It worse than useless, and tending toward harmful to humanity. I don't think I realized exactly what the main problem is with this world until It showed up.

You're right; It is sort of entertaining, in a Barack the Compulsive Liar kind of way, where you're always mildly fascinated by the latest steaming pile of bs, but since I decided to try to remove toxic personalities from my life, to the extent practical, I've had to do without the laughs provided by Bimbo, Teonut, Insecure White Guy, and one other idiot. I think Floormat will be next. They ought to get together and start their own Troll Forum; they all no doubt find each other to be worth the oxygen they burn.

Besides, you have kids, so you've had practice in dealing with small children...I'll just enjoy watching you do it. wink
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/06/14 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
but since I decided to try to remove toxic personalities from my life, to the extent practical, I've had to do without the laughs provided by Bimbo, Teonut, Insecure White Guy, and one other idiot. I think Floormat will be next. They ought to get together and start their own Troll Forum; they all no doubt find each other to be worth the oxygen they burn.
They can be a maddening group for sure.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/06/14 04:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Not so fast, Pilgrim.
You can only be a Pilgrim or a native. Which are you?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/06/14 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:

Of course every time it cannot counter a fact it deflects with a snide derogatory question with an implication that anyone disagreeing with its ignorance is wrong. Poor Bimbo, nobody else found it the least bit interesting. It obviously did not read the ruling and could not comprehend it if it did. So it finds someone else it agrees with so if anyone proved it wrong, it would claim it was not him, but the other guy. Heaven forbid it ever be proven wrong, like it has been hundreds of times.


It doesn't know much, doesn't want to, or isn't able to, learn much, and thinks it knows everything.

It's a bad combination of behaviors and disabilities, which render It worse than useless, and tending toward harmful to humanity. I don't think I realized exactly what the main problem is with this world until It showed up.

You're right; It is sort of entertaining, in a Barack the Compulsive Liar kind of way, where you're always mildly fascinated by the latest steaming pile of bs, but since I decided to try to remove toxic personalities from my life, to the extent practical, I've had to do without the laughs provided by Bimbo, Teonut, Insecure White Guy, and one other idiot. I think Floormat will be next. They ought to get together and start their own Troll Forum; they all no doubt find each other to be worth the oxygen they burn.

Besides, you have kids, so you've had practice in dealing with small children...I'll just enjoy watching you do it. wink

And yet, none of your collective musings change the facts, as I presented them. whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/06/14 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.

It displays an interesting combination of stupidity and dishonesty.
Hello VM: I know you wisely have the forum fool on ignore and cannot read its ignorance. I have not done so merely because its replies are so humorous. Its latest comeback challenging a unanimous 9 to 0 SCOTUS ruling posted two days ago questions:

"Does anybody else find it the least bit interesting that a strict constitutional originalist, completely disagrees with your hypocritical position on the issue?"

Of course every time it cannot counter a fact it deflects with a snide derogatory question with an implication that anyone disagreeing with its ignorance is wrong. Poor Bimbo, nobody else found it the least bit interesting. It obviously did not read the ruling and could not comprehend it if it did. So it finds someone else it agrees with so if anyone proved it wrong, it would claim it was not him, but the other guy. Heaven forbid it ever be proven wrong, like it has been hundreds of times.

See the footnote on page 9 of Justice Scalia's Bond opinion.

"The Congress cannot, by legislation, enlarge the federal jurisdiction, nor can it be enlarged under the treaty making power."

Bimbo, who strives toward unlimited tribal sovereignty, thinks it knows better. LOL

On the contrary, it cuts straight to point, by exposing your immaturity, hypocrisy, misrepresentations and obdurate refusal to acknowledge key aspects of the bigger picture, thereby exposing your consistent lack of credibility on this and other specifics.

Furthermore, for someone who seems to find snideness to be so unpalatable, you sure do have a proclivity for using far more infantile bastardizations of forum user names an other such low-minded insults.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/09/14 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

And yet, none of your collective musings change the facts, as I presented them.


your 'facts' contradict themselves
yawn...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/09/14 10:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

so true
So extremely true. The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.


It is seeking attention
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/09/14 12:58 PM


WHO'S seeking attention? whistle
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/09/14 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
You're wasting your time on a troll.

so true
So extremely true. The forum joke cannot connect a dot to itself or comprehend anything it disagrees with.


It is seeking attention


ANOTHER classless dweeb taking a correspondence course from Greeneville's newly opened School of Cheap Shots using IT as a personal pronoun.

Knock yourself out dolt.


Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/13/14 11:02 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140611/NEWS/140619816

3 municipalities sign agreement over Nation funds

• The Oneida County Board of Legislators has approved agreements with three municipalities to share funds from the historic settlement with the Oneida Indian Nation.

Under the May 2013 agreement between the state of New York, Oneida and Madison counties and the Oneida Nation, the state gets 25 percent of slot machine profits from the Nation’s Turning Stone Resort Casino, or an estimated $50 million a year. Oneida County is to get 25 percent of the state’s share, or about $12.5 million.

In order to get the money, the municipalities must agree not to sue over the settlement. If they do in the future, they must return any money that have received.

In addition to the municipalities now getting the funds, Sylvan beach and the town of Vienna have been offered agreements. So far, however, they have yet to accept. The towns of Vernon and Verona have not been offered agreements, because they are continuing lawsuits against the Nation.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/13/14 11:03 PM

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/stor...izure/10322349/

click on the url for the full article

Feds, Cayuga-Seneca tribe reach settlement


Federal authorities and a Native American tribe have reached a settlement over a federal seizure of more than $550,000, more than a million cigarettes and other tobacco products.

The dispute represents one chapter in a bevy of court cases across New York with government officials challenging the extent to which Indian tribes can sell untaxed tobacco products. As part of the settlement over Skydancer, the Seneca-Cayuga tribe agreed to not reopen the store until upper-tier appellate courts have ruled on the rights of Indian tribes to sell untaxed cigarettes to people other than Native Americans.

Under the settlement:

• The government keeps about half of the seized money. The tribe agrees to use its half to restore some jobs lost at the Oklahoma reservation since the forfeiture litigation began last year.

• The government will auction off much of the seized tobacco inventory, and will keep 68 percent of the proceeds, with the tribe receiving the rest.

• The government will return 144 cases of seized Skydancer-brand cigarettes, which the tribe manufactures in Oklahoma and has agreed to destroy. The tribe will receive a refund of federal excise taxes it had paid on the cigarettes. Each case has 12,000 cigarettes.

The tribe wanted the cases of its signature-brand cigarettes out of circulation because the quality may have diminished during the lengthy storage period, said Kaufman.

• The tribe agreed that any cigarettes it sends into New York for sale elsewhere in the state will go through the state's cigarette stamping process, which ensures they will be taxed.

The Seneca-Cayuga tribe has consistently paid its property and school taxes for the store property, Kaufman said. The tribe has agreed to pay the 2014 taxes also, which had not been paid during the dispute.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/15/14 06:41 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...ted-528-1025-am
Sherrill Commission approves deal with Oneida County 3-to-1

Despite a handful of individuals including Oneida County Legislators and a former mayor, the Sherrill City Commission approved a deal offered to them by Oneida County that would see the city receive roughly $58 per person, a total of around $160,000 annually, in exchange for their vow not to challenge the Oneida Indian Nation Agreement or raise pending litigation against the tribe or the county regarding land disputes or tax claims.

The vote passed three for and one against, With Mayor Bill Vineall and commissioners Jason Merrill and Patrick Hubbard in support of the agreement and Commissioner Mike Hennessy in opposition. Deputy Mayor Jeff Gilbert was not in attendance for the vote as he had prior obligations and had been excused earlier during the meeting.

[Note: I have covered this on similar votes as the county blackmails the towns and villages following the State blackmailing the county. I respect Mike Hennessey for holding to principles following the tribe cutting a deal with the State forgiving $298 million in property taxes plus giving the tribe 25,000 acres for a reservation in exchange for making compact payments which the State could have forced the tribe to pay anyway at any time following the lawsuit by UCE which had the compact by Mario Cuomo ruled unconstitutional. I hear that King Ray and his bribes did not accomplish this all on his own but the New Jersey mob was also involved.

To all of which is a futile attempt to legalize the scam and remove liability which is negated by the lawsuits of Vernon/Verona, UCE and CERA. The fact that the federal government, an indispensible party, is not part of the settlement, that the 2008 ROD was dismissed by Judge Kahn and the BIA has refused and ignored the court's orders as the lawsuits proceed should be interesting. ]
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/15/14 10:22 PM

Quote:
The fact that the federal government, an indispensible party, is not part of the settlement, that the 2008 ROD was dismissed by Judge Kahn and the BIA has refused and ignored the court's orders as the lawsuits proceed should be interesting. ]


It does sound interesting.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/17/14 07:52 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2...mpid=nwsltrhead
Click on url for full article
Wilmorite casino gamble: Boon or blight in small Finger Lakes town

Last November, the residents of the tiny town of Tyre at New York State Thruway Exit 41 voted 114 to 100 against a statewide gambling referendum.
It was a philosophical statement about allowing casino gambling anywhere outside Indian territory in New York state; not a question about building a $350 million casino with 2,000 slot machines, a 200-room hotel, five restaurants and spa with 3.3 million annual visitors in the Seneca County town of 899 residents.

"We never dreamed it would be here," said Catherine Strong, a "no" voter whose family stretches back five generations in Tyre.

Gambling lost in Tyre, but the referendum won all of Seneca County by 55 percent and, more importantly, it passed across New York state by 57 percent of the vote.
Soon after, men were seen surveying a plot of land just north of Thruway, over the bridge from the big Petro gas station. Neighbors started knocking on doors to gossip about what was going on.

Rochester-based Wilmorite wants to build a casino on the 82-acre farm site.
The project pits neighbor against neighbor in Gov. Andrew Cuomo's gamble to create jobs and boost tourism in Upstate New York.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/21/14 02:09 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl...older/10996027/
Shareholders concerned about FedEx link to Redskins

http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/906b4a9b-d182-44d3-ab0c-81a90e280998/1/doc/13-3069_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/906b4a9b-d182-44d3-ab0c-81a90e280998/1/hilite/

NY Stockbridge-Munsee lose their Appeal...2nd Circuit Today

The Stockbridge&#8208;Munsee Community (“Stockbridge”), a federally
10 recognized Indian tribe, appeals from a judgment of the United States District Court for the Northern District of New York (Kahn, J.), dismissing its claims to title of a thirty&#8208;six square mile tract of land in upstate New York.
It is well&#8208;settled that claims by an Indian tribe alleging that it was unlawfully dispossessed of land early in America’s history are barred by the equitable principles of laches, acquiescence, and impossibility. We therefore affirm.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/23/14 03:48 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/06/nice_n_easy_founder_john_macdougall_dies_at_73.html

Nice N Easy founder John MacDougall dies at 73

Nice N Easy President and CEO John MacDougall, 73, has died.

MacDougall founded Nice N Easy Grocery Shoppes in 1980. Since, the convenience store chain has grown to 80 locations in upstate New York.

Nice N Easy tweeted Sunday night that the iconic Central New Yorker had died.

[Note: John will be greatly missed. Back when the Cayuga purchased and rebuilt the competing gas station in Union Springs John had a tax free day and allowed UCE to pass out literature to customers. Shortly after that the Union Springs Nice N Easy burned down. Due to the State refusing to enforce the tax laws John explained it was just not viable to rebuild and the village lost a good business. Had as good share of his customers not supported the tribe instead, it may have been different. The State is not the only one at fault for losing a good business. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/24/14 11:55 PM

http://www.buffalonews.com/business/senecas-projects-to-go-beyond-tribal-territory-20140624
Senecas' projects to go beyond tribal territory

The lure of the area's construction boom is proving irresistible for a new competitor in the market.

No longer content to be limited to tribal construction projects, the Seneca Nation of Indians has formed a new business to accept contracts for building work outside the tribe’s sovereign territory.

With the approval of the Senecas' elected leaders and Tribal Council, the new entity, called 7 GENS, will start to pursue off-territory work on both public- and private-sector projects, operating as a general contractor or providing construction management services.

The new company is also seeking to become a certified New York State Minority Business Enterprise, which would allow it to bid for opportunities not only in the state, but along the Eastern Seaboard.

Click on url for full story
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/26/14 05:55 PM

http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/2ae5c7f3-a87a-41ba-9c46-428c0e2b30c1/1/doc/13-3069_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/2ae5c7f3-a87a-41ba-9c46-428c0e2b30c1/1/hilite/

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
August Term, 2013
(Argued: June 18, 2014 Decided: June 20, 2014) 12
Docket No. 13&#8208;3069 34
&#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208;x 56
Stockbridge&#8208;Munsee Community, 78
9 Plaintiff&#8208;Counter&#8208;Defendant&#8208;
10 Appellant,
11
12 &#8208; v.&#8208;
13
14 State of New York, Mario Cuomo, as Governor of the
15 State of New York, New York State Department of
16 Transportation, Franklin White, as Commissioner of
17 Transportation, Madison County, The County of Madison
18 New York, Oneida County, New York, Town of Augusta,
19 New York, Town of Lincoln, New York, Village of
20 Munnsville, New York, Town of Smithfield, New York,
21 Town of Stockbridge, New York, Town of Vernon, New
22 York,
23
24 Defendant&#8208;Counter&#8208;Claimant&#8208;
25 Appellees,
26
27
Oneida Indian Nation of New York, 12
3 Defendant&#8208;Intervenor&#8208;
Appellee. 45
&#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208; &#8208;x 67
8 Before: JACOBS, STRAUB, and RAGGI, Circuit Judges.
9 The Stockbridge&#8208;Munsee Community (“Stockbridge”), a federally
10 recognized Indian tribe, appeals from a judgment of the United States District
11 Court for the Northern District of New York (Kahn, J.), dismissing its claims to
12 title of a thirty&#8208;six square mile tract of land in upstate New York. It is well&#8208;settled
13 that claims by an Indian tribe alleging that it was unlawfully dispossessed of land
14 early in America’s history are barred by the equitable principles of laches,
15 acquiescence, and impossibility. We therefore affirm.



http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/06/26/69074.htm

Affirming dismissal of a decades-old tribal claim to a wide swath of land in upstate New York, the 2nd Circuit cited a trio of cases that also involved ancestral lands.

"It is well-settled that claims by an Indian tribe alleging that it was unlawfully dispossessed of land early in America's history are barred by the equitable principles of laches, acquiescence and impossibility," the unsigned decision filed Friday states.

The Stockbridge-Munsee Community of Wisconsin brought the appeal after a federal judge in Albany dismissed its claims to 36 square miles of land - about 23,000 acres - lying between Syracuse and Utica.

Originally filed in 1986, Stockbridge's lawsuit against the state and others sought eviction and trespass damages.
The Oneida Indian Nation soon intervened as a defendant, claiming the land was part of its historic reservation.

A 2004 amended complaint argued that New York failed to get required federal consent for its acquisition of the tribe's upstate land in 15 transactions between 1818 and 1842.

The court dismissed the lawsuit after a settlement attempt failed, finding that the state and the Oneida enjoyed sovereign immunity and that the claims against the towns and counties were barred by a 2005 U.S. Supreme Court decision.


The 2nd Circuit last week cited that case, City of Sherrill v. Oneida Indian Nation of New York, as one of three decisions that "foreclosed" the Stockbridge land claim.

Sherrill involved Oneida's claim to a property-tax exemption on historic reservation land, but the Supreme Court deemed such a "disruptive remedy" time-barred by the "long lapse of time during which the Oneidas did not seek to revive their sovereign control through equitable relief in court and the attendant dramatic changes in the character of the properties."

Judges Dennis Jacobs, Chester Straub and Reena Raggi concurred for the federal appeals court, which also cited circuit precedent from 2005 and 2010 that cited Sherrill in turning back other "disruptive" and "long delayed" land claims by the Cayuga and Oneida nations.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/26/14 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Sherrill involved Oneida's claim to a property-tax exemption on historic reservation land, but the Supreme Court deemed such a "disruptive remedy" time-barred by the "long lapse of time during which the Oneidas did not seek to revive their sovereign control through equitable relief in court and the attendant dramatic changes in the character of the properties."

Judges Dennis Jacobs, Chester Straub and Reena Raggi concurred for the federal appeals court, which also cited circuit precedent from 2005 and 2010 that cited Sherrill in turning back other "disruptive" and "long delayed" land claims by the Cayuga and Oneida nations.
So Rich, does this mean it is all over? grin
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/26/14 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
So Rich, does this mean it is all over? grin
The land claims have been over since the Sherrill ruling set precedent and hundreds of them fell like dominoes throughout the country. This was one of the last ones remaining.

They can and likely will appeal to SCOTUS just like the Cayuga did in their land claim and just like SCOTUS did with the Cayuga will deny their appeal letting the Second Circuit ruling stand. Then it will be over.

Anyone who is naive enough to think the land claims, foreclosure cases and trust applications have anything to do with one another is not worth the waste of time to explain it to.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/30/14 09:18 PM

http://www.adn.com/2014/06/25/3534211/co.../#storylink=cpy


Compass: Issues unresolved in proposal for federal trust of Alaska Native land
By MARY BISHOPJune 25, 2014

What happens when the U.S. Secretary of the Interior takes lands into trust for Indian tribes? A recent national report recommends doing so to improve social conditions in our rural Alaska villages. While I do not presume to be an Indian law expert, I do know the issue is enormously complex.

In the Lower 48, when ownership of land is transferred to a tribe, the tribe can ask the Secretary to put it in trust status. According to a 2013 Pepperdine Law Review article the process, known as "fee-to-trust," is fervently opposed by many affected communities because the land is no longer subject to state and local taxation or zoning, planning, fish and game and other regulatory controls. Alaska tribes are asking for this fee-to-trust privilege. Trust status would provide a territorial land base for tribal governing authority -- two acres here, five acres there, 40 or 400 acres somewhere else. Presumably, lands could be given or sold to a tribe by regional or village Native corporations, by Native allotment owners (allotments exist extensively throughout Alaska), by any Native or non-Native individual or business interested in establishing a tribal business free of state taxation and regulation within the trust lands.

Those who understand Indian law best are those who passionately and patiently advocate for increased tribal authority and financial benefit available through judicious use of this complex body of law. They do not necessarily have the broader interests of all Alaskans in mind.

Why might Alaska tribes want lands put into federal trust? Several reasons come to mind. To improve the social and economic status of tribal members is the most frequently stated reason. But this seems illogical; virtually all reservations in the Lower 48 are on Indian country trust lands, and they do not generally seem to be good models for social or economic health.

Second, to have jurisdiction over domestic disputes within villages is another stated reason. However, the Alaska Supreme Court in 1999 has already confirmed some of that tribal authority in the John v. Baker case. Alaska tribal governments, even without the territorial base designated as "Indian country," retain sovereign power to regulate internal domestic affairs such as determination of membership, regulation of domestic relations among members, and regulation of inheritance. However, Alaska tribes do not now have jurisdiction over non-members.

A third important reason may be to gain territory, called "Indian country," over which tribes have governmental authority. In 1998 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the Venetie decision that no "Indian country" existed in Alaska except on the Annette Island Reservation. Lands transferred through the 1971 Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (ANCSA) were not transferred to tribes. Instead Native corporations received land in fee title.

Congress declared in ANCSA that the settlement should be accomplished "without establishing any permanent racially defined institutions, rights, privileges or obligations, without creating a reservation system or lengthy wardship or trusteeship, and without adding to the categories of property and institutions enjoying special tax privileges..." Just before President Nixon signed ANCSA, village representatives voted overwhelmingly in favor of the legislation - 511 to 56.

The Venetie decision did not prohibit Indian country in Alaska in the future. If Indian country is established, then tribal courts would have jurisdiction within the confines of that territory--jurisdiction consistent with that allowed in certain other states. Would this be the unraveling of ANCSA?

To uphold ANCSA surely all the settlement lands should be exempt from federal trust status. This could best be clarified by Congress, through efforts of our congressional delegation. If the Lower 48 is any example, otherwise years of litigation can be anticipated.

A fourth important reason for gaining fee-to-trust benefits likely is to gain business and political advantage for tribes and their associates. Alaska is one of six states that are subject to federal Public Law 280, which means that the state and its municipalities have no regulation and taxation authority on trust lands. That authority resides with the tribe. In addition, tribes hold sovereign immunity from suit on most tribal business endeavors existing on trust lands. As examples, they cannot be sued for breach of contract or for injury to a customer in their business establishment open to the public unless a formal "waiver of sovereign immunity" has been signed.

Thus, tribal businesses that sell taxed products gain a substantial advantage over their neighboring non-tribal businesses. The Lower 48 has seen a boom in the Indian casino business. As a result some tribes are now among the largest contributors to political campaigns and spend millions on lobbying efforts.

The Venetie case concerned the village's effort to tax a contractor building a state school on land owned by the village pursuant to ANCSA. Lower courts had upheld the tax. If these lands had been in federal trust, would the Supreme Court have also upheld the tax?

Sometimes a non-Indian business entity in the Lower 48 joins with a tribal group to establish a non-taxable business on tribal lands. I don't think this would relate to the lucrative federal 8(a) contracting in which many Alaska Native corporations engage -- but it's another item to have clarified.

Tribal members living on trust lands are full citizens of the state, must receive all state benefits, and can vote on state and county/borough bonding issues. But members living within Indian country cannot be taxed to support them. Members can be elected to state or municipal office and vote on budgets for which many of their constituents would have no tax responsibility.

Is this "representation without taxation"? It may make good business sense to gain this privilege - but is it good public policy? How would this impact the "rural-urban" divide and racial relations in Alaska?

These are only some aspects to be considered when supporting or opposing the proposal to take Alaska tribal lands into trust status. I suggest interested parties check the internet for a "fee-to-trust introduction" by Citizen's Equal Rights Alliance and study "American Indian Law in a Nutshell," by Ninth Circuit Judge William Canby. But no text will have all the answers; masses of litigation are ongoing constantly. The Pepperdine Law Review article stresses the need for comprehensive reform of the fee-to-trust process.

I encourage readers to comment soon on this federal proposal "to take land into trust for Alaska Native tribes." The Department of Interior welcomes written comments by June 30, 2014. Email comments to consultation@bia.gov or mail to Mr. Kevin Washburn, Assistant Secretary-Indian Affairs, 1849 C Street NW, MS 7328-MIB, Washington, D.C. 20240. Please also send copies to Governor Sean Parnell and our congressional delegation.

For over 50 years, Mary Bishop has lived in Fairbanks and Interior Alaska villages. During the 1980s and 1990s she edited the Alaska Outdoor Council's quarterly newsletter, and in that capacity became familiar with the issue of Indian country in Alaska.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/30/14 09:20 PM

Breaking news:

The Washington Redskins drop the word Washington from their name, as they find it embarrassing.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/30/14 09:22 PM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/232030888/New-York-state-casino-applicants#download

NYS Casino applicants
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 06/30/14 09:52 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140630/NEWS/140639945/10283/NEWS

Land into trust battle goes out with a whisper

[Must have been a slow news day for the Dispatch. No, it has not been placed into trust. ]
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/01/14 05:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Breaking news:

The Washington Redskins drop the word Washington from their name, as they find it embarrassing.


Rightly so. Who would want to be associated with the District of Criminals?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/10/14 02:13 AM

http://www.indianz.com/News/2014/014316.asp
Doug George-Kanentiio: Fire lawyers for bad Mohawk land deal
TUESDAY, JULY 8, 2014

After reviewing the statements issued by the St. Regis Tribal Council in support of extinguishing forever all Mohawk claims to our aboriginal territory it is obvious none of the lawyers for the Tribe, the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne or the Mohawk Nation Council have read, studied or creatively analyzed the dreaded 2005 City of Sherrill v. Oneida Indian Nation of New York case and its limitations.

A careful reading would reveal that the Court made numerous factual errors in its conclusions beginning with the repetition of the myth that the Oneida Nation once held sovereignty over 6,000,000 acres of what is now New York State. This is blatantly false.

At its peak the Oneidas possessed a stretch of land between the St. Lawrence and Susquehanna rivers and from the West Canada Creek to the east and Chittenango Creek to the west for a total of 3.7 million acres or 5,800 square miles. Within that area the Oneidas had communities at Oswegatchie, Black Lake, Oriskany, Otsego and Oneida Castle among other places. Anything additional would be considered intrusions on the lands of the Onondaga and Mohawk nations.

[Note: Sorry George, but the NY Oneida Aboriginal Land Claim was for six million acres and they lost that land claim about 2004. That’s in the court records, so maybe you better tell King Ray he was wrong.]

The second major mistake is that the current Oneida Indian Nation is a continuance of the Oneida Nation as it was in 1794 and into the first decades of the 19th century. It is not.

The current regime was fabricated in 1992 and bears no resemblance in structure or governance to the Oneida Nation of the past. It does not adhere to the Great Law, has no condoled chiefs, faithkeepers or clanmothers. This regime deliberately and demonstrably separated from the Haudenosaunee in 1993 and has acted in a manner hostile to the other Iroquois nations.

In addition, the Oneida Indian Nation does not meet the basic standards for US federal recognition (25 CFR § 83) as it fails in categories 83.7 (a) (b) and (C) in that it is neither an ancestral administration, one which has governed since 1990 nor has in any way held political influence since "historic times" (which may also said to be true of the St. Regis Tribe).

[Note: to ALL of which I agree with George. However, because Congressman Sherwood Boehlert cut a deal with Ada Deer to proclaim King Ray as the federal representative spokesperson in exchange for his vote approving NAFTA, it is what it is.]

The third error is that the Oneida Indian Nation has standing before the US courts to bring suit. It fails in this category since it does not represent the traditional Oneidas and has vigorously opposed the intervention of the Oneidas from Wisconsin and Ontario. The latter two are critical elements in the claims process and for the US Supreme Court to exclude them is contrary to its previous rulings and leaves them without remedy and denies them their day in court.

[Note: the tribe split into factions and the other two factions are recognized as separate tribes. ]

Another mistake made by the justices is to somehow cite the 1794 Canandaigua Treaty as having bearing on the Sherrill case. It does not since the Oneida Indian Nation is excluded from its provisions given that the OIN is in no way associated with the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois) not was it a party to the signing of that treaty nor can it claim to be a natural inheritor of those who did.

[Note: I agree with George again because that treaty was with the Confederacy which no longer includes the NY Oneida. ]

So how can the Court qualify the treaty claims of the Oneidas using the OIN as its representative agency? This error is compounded by citing the fraudulent 1838 Buffalo Creek Treaty, a document so blatantly corrupt and controversial it led to the Senecas of Cattaraugus and Allegany forming their own government separate from the Confederacy with major revisions in the second Buffalo Creek treaty in 1842.

[Note: The 1838 Treaty was part of the federal removal act in which the vast majority of NY Oneida became the WS Oneida federally recognized as a separate tribe. The 1842 Treaty was a confirmation of their removal. ]

The 1838 "treaty" was also designed to remove the Mohawks to Kansas yet that never happened. To cite this most terrible of documents as cause for a denial of the land claims is yet one more historical lie placed upon another. That the Oneida Nation was involved in anyway in 1838 is not credible given that the Nation was scattered and its council fire wampum held by the Grand Council.

[Note: George knows better and you have to read the treaty to understand the tribes had the option to move or not and that also included the Cayuga. The Sherrill case invoked laches and impossibility against land claims based on Justifiable Expectations, not based on the 1838 Treaty. ]

Further, the court used the laches defense to reject the Oneida Indian Nation claims. It ruled that those lands under question may have been stolen by New York State but too much time had passed and individual homeowners and businesses were at risk. The decision by the OIN to threaten the non-Native property owners was the major mistake made by its lawyers (without the knowledge or consent of the Oneida people). The essence of the Supreme Court ruling is the following:

"...long acquiescence may have controlling effect on the exercise of States' dominion and sovereignty over territory. E.g., Ohio v. Kentucky, 410 U. S. 641, 651. This Court's original-jurisdiction state-sovereignty cases do not dictate a result here, but they provide a helpful point of reference: When a party belatedly asserts a right to present and future sovereign control over territory, longstanding observances and settled expectations are prime considerations. It has been two centuries since the Oneidas last exercised regulatory control over the properties here or held them free from local taxation. Parcel-by-parcel revival of their sovereign status, given the extraordinary passage of time, would dishonor "the historic wisdom in the value of repose." Oneida II, 470 U. S., at 262. Finally, this Court has recognized the impracticability of returning to Indian control land that generations earlier passed into numerous private hands. See, e.g., Yankton Sioux Tribe v. United States, 272 U. S. 351, 357. The unilateral reestablishment of present and future Indian sovereign control, even over land purchased at the market price, would have disruptive practical consequences similar to those that led the Yankton Sioux Court to initiate the impossibility doctrine: Sherrill and the surrounding area are today overwhelmingly populated by non-Indians, and a checkerboard of state and tribal jurisdiction--created unilaterally at OIN's behest--would "seriously burde[n] the administration of state and local governments" and would adversely affect landowners neighboring the tribal patches."

[Note: Oh come on George. Laches is not the mere passage of time. It includes the actions and inactions of all the parties involved. The tribes sold the lands and accepted payments for them. The federal government was a complicit party buy being the overseer of the financial transactions by taking the money from the state and giving it to the tribes. There was not even a mention or discussion of any questionable actions by NYS in the Congressional Record. Furthermore, Sherrill brought up for the first time the Treaty of Ft. Schuyler whereby the Oneida sold all their lands to the NY Colony in 1788 legally under the Articles of Confederation before NY joined the Union. ]

But does in any way effect the Mohawk claim? It does not. The mistake made by the Mohawk lawyers is not making a clear distinction between our claims and the far weaker OIN action. When I was a negotiator we anticipated the above as a tactic to be used by New York State.

Our response was to identify those lands which were not inhabited, were under current State administration and therefore would not cost the counties or New York any lost revenues. No one would be displaced, no business adversely affected.

Since New York would lose nothing it could easily concede those lands. Anyone with a boat can tour Barnhart, Croil, Long Sault, Ogden or Galop islands and see that they are all free from permanent habitation and can be returned to Akwesasne, just as most of Brasher State Forest or any other State holding.

Yet I am certain not one of the Mohawk lawyers has ever seen these lands and doubt none of the current Mohawk leadership has taken the time to truly see what is about to be ceded. Nothing in the Sherrill case precludes the Mohawk councils from attaching the islands or any other State property so long as it can be proven such claims do not in any way disrupt the security of US taxpayers.

Nor does Sherrill qualify the Mohawk claim when we can prove a longstanding, sustained formal action to recover those stolen lands and prove that at no point did the Mohawk Nation cede by treaty or any other document any lands to New York or the US. Therefore, Sherrill has no bearing on us: but if we are foolish enough to hide beneath the Seven Nations of Canada or Joseph Brant "treaties" then Sherrill may apply. To is credit, the Mohawk Nation Council has repeatedly denied the validity of both "agreements".

[Note: With three different Mohawk government factions which do not agree with each other and the one federally recognized, which I also do not believe is legitimate, making treaties, the other factions will always cry foul.]

Returning land to us without condition is a practical resolution to prolonged court action. We did not wait two centuries to bring our claim nor have we surrendered our jurisdictional rights at any time. The lands to be returned are not held by private hands: no checkerboard will happen here. There will be no disruptions to anyone and the exercise of Mohawk sovereignty can be demonstrated to have beneficial consequences to all parties.

Yet the Mohawk lawyers refuse to adopt a more aggressive strategy and counsel their clients to get the best of a very bad deal when there are many alternatives open to the Mohawk people.

But where to begin?

Start by firing every one of those timid lawyers (especially those who, even now, have not met with the Mohawk people) and begin to assert through direction action what is, by natural law and aboriginal right, ours.

[Note: In the six million acre Oneida claim the courts ruled aboriginal claims invalid. Have a nice day. ]
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/10/14 12:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.indianz.com/News/2014/014316.asp
Doug George-Kanentiio: Fire lawyers for bad Mohawk land deal
TUESDAY, JULY 8, 2014

After reviewing the statements issued by the St. Regis Tribal Council in support of extinguishing forever all Mohawk claims to our aboriginal territory it is obvious none of the lawyers for the Tribe, the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne or the Mohawk Nation Council have read, studied or creatively analyzed the dreaded 2005 City of Sherrill v. Oneida Indian Nation of New York case and its limitations.

A careful reading would reveal that the Court made numerous factual errors in its conclusions beginning with the repetition of the myth that the Oneida Nation once held sovereignty over 6,000,000 acres of what is now New York State. This is blatantly false.

At its peak the Oneidas possessed a stretch of land between the St. Lawrence and Susquehanna rivers and from the West Canada Creek to the east and Chittenango Creek to the west for a total of 3.7 million acres or 5,800 square miles. Within that area the Oneidas had communities at Oswegatchie, Black Lake, Oriskany, Otsego and Oneida Castle among other places. Anything additional would be considered intrusions on the lands of the Onondaga and Mohawk nations.

[Note: Sorry George, but the NY Oneida Aboriginal Land Claim was for six million acres and they lost that land claim about 2004. That’s in the court records, so maybe you better tell King Ray he was wrong.]

The second major mistake is that the current Oneida Indian Nation is a continuance of the Oneida Nation as it was in 1794 and into the first decades of the 19th century. It is not.

The current regime was fabricated in 1992 and bears no resemblance in structure or governance to the Oneida Nation of the past. It does not adhere to the Great Law, has no condoled chiefs, faithkeepers or clanmothers. This regime deliberately and demonstrably separated from the Haudenosaunee in 1993 and has acted in a manner hostile to the other Iroquois nations.

In addition, the Oneida Indian Nation does not meet the basic standards for US federal recognition (25 CFR § 83) as it fails in categories 83.7 (a) (b) and (C) in that it is neither an ancestral administration, one which has governed since 1990 nor has in any way held political influence since "historic times" (which may also said to be true of the St. Regis Tribe).

[Note: to ALL of which I agree with George. However, because Congressman Sherwood Boehlert cut a deal with Ada Deer to proclaim King Ray as the federal representative spokesperson in exchange for his vote approving NAFTA, it is what it is.]

The third error is that the Oneida Indian Nation has standing before the US courts to bring suit. It fails in this category since it does not represent the traditional Oneidas and has vigorously opposed the intervention of the Oneidas from Wisconsin and Ontario. The latter two are critical elements in the claims process and for the US Supreme Court to exclude them is contrary to its previous rulings and leaves them without remedy and denies them their day in court.

[Note: the tribe split into factions and the other two factions are recognized as separate tribes. ]

Another mistake made by the justices is to somehow cite the 1794 Canandaigua Treaty as having bearing on the Sherrill case. It does not since the Oneida Indian Nation is excluded from its provisions given that the OIN is in no way associated with the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois) not was it a party to the signing of that treaty nor can it claim to be a natural inheritor of those who did.

[Note: I agree with George again because that treaty was with the Confederacy which no longer includes the NY Oneida. ]

So how can the Court qualify the treaty claims of the Oneidas using the OIN as its representative agency? This error is compounded by citing the fraudulent 1838 Buffalo Creek Treaty, a document so blatantly corrupt and controversial it led to the Senecas of Cattaraugus and Allegany forming their own government separate from the Confederacy with major revisions in the second Buffalo Creek treaty in 1842.

[Note: The 1838 Treaty was part of the federal removal act in which the vast majority of NY Oneida became the WS Oneida federally recognized as a separate tribe. The 1842 Treaty was a confirmation of their removal. ]

The 1838 "treaty" was also designed to remove the Mohawks to Kansas yet that never happened. To cite this most terrible of documents as cause for a denial of the land claims is yet one more historical lie placed upon another. That the Oneida Nation was involved in anyway in 1838 is not credible given that the Nation was scattered and its council fire wampum held by the Grand Council.

[Note: George knows better and you have to read the treaty to understand the tribes had the option to move or not and that also included the Cayuga. The Sherrill case invoked laches and impossibility against land claims based on Justifiable Expectations, not based on the 1838 Treaty. ]

Further, the court used the laches defense to reject the Oneida Indian Nation claims. It ruled that those lands under question may have been stolen by New York State but too much time had passed and individual homeowners and businesses were at risk. The decision by the OIN to threaten the non-Native property owners was the major mistake made by its lawyers (without the knowledge or consent of the Oneida people). The essence of the Supreme Court ruling is the following:

"...long acquiescence may have controlling effect on the exercise of States' dominion and sovereignty over territory. E.g., Ohio v. Kentucky, 410 U. S. 641, 651. This Court's original-jurisdiction state-sovereignty cases do not dictate a result here, but they provide a helpful point of reference: When a party belatedly asserts a right to present and future sovereign control over territory, longstanding observances and settled expectations are prime considerations. It has been two centuries since the Oneidas last exercised regulatory control over the properties here or held them free from local taxation. Parcel-by-parcel revival of their sovereign status, given the extraordinary passage of time, would dishonor "the historic wisdom in the value of repose." Oneida II, 470 U. S., at 262. Finally, this Court has recognized the impracticability of returning to Indian control land that generations earlier passed into numerous private hands. See, e.g., Yankton Sioux Tribe v. United States, 272 U. S. 351, 357. The unilateral reestablishment of present and future Indian sovereign control, even over land purchased at the market price, would have disruptive practical consequences similar to those that led the Yankton Sioux Court to initiate the impossibility doctrine: Sherrill and the surrounding area are today overwhelmingly populated by non-Indians, and a checkerboard of state and tribal jurisdiction--created unilaterally at OIN's behest--would "seriously burde[n] the administration of state and local governments" and would adversely affect landowners neighboring the tribal patches."

[Note: Oh come on George. Laches is not the mere passage of time. It includes the actions and inactions of all the parties involved. The tribes sold the lands and accepted payments for them. The federal government was a complicit party buy being the overseer of the financial transactions by taking the money from the state and giving it to the tribes. There was not even a mention or discussion of any questionable actions by NYS in the Congressional Record. Furthermore, Sherrill brought up for the first time the Treaty of Ft. Schuyler whereby the Oneida sold all their lands to the NY Colony in 1788 legally under the Articles of Confederation before NY joined the Union. ]

But does in any way effect the Mohawk claim? It does not. The mistake made by the Mohawk lawyers is not making a clear distinction between our claims and the far weaker OIN action. When I was a negotiator we anticipated the above as a tactic to be used by New York State.

Our response was to identify those lands which were not inhabited, were under current State administration and therefore would not cost the counties or New York any lost revenues. No one would be displaced, no business adversely affected.

Since New York would lose nothing it could easily concede those lands. Anyone with a boat can tour Barnhart, Croil, Long Sault, Ogden or Galop islands and see that they are all free from permanent habitation and can be returned to Akwesasne, just as most of Brasher State Forest or any other State holding.

Yet I am certain not one of the Mohawk lawyers has ever seen these lands and doubt none of the current Mohawk leadership has taken the time to truly see what is about to be ceded. Nothing in the Sherrill case precludes the Mohawk councils from attaching the islands or any other State property so long as it can be proven such claims do not in any way disrupt the security of US taxpayers.

Nor does Sherrill qualify the Mohawk claim when we can prove a longstanding, sustained formal action to recover those stolen lands and prove that at no point did the Mohawk Nation cede by treaty or any other document any lands to New York or the US. Therefore, Sherrill has no bearing on us: but if we are foolish enough to hide beneath the Seven Nations of Canada or Joseph Brant "treaties" then Sherrill may apply. To is credit, the Mohawk Nation Council has repeatedly denied the validity of both "agreements".

[Note: With three different Mohawk government factions which do not agree with each other and the one federally recognized, which I also do not believe is legitimate, making treaties, the other factions will always cry foul.]

Returning land to us without condition is a practical resolution to prolonged court action. We did not wait two centuries to bring our claim nor have we surrendered our jurisdictional rights at any time. The lands to be returned are not held by private hands: no checkerboard will happen here. There will be no disruptions to anyone and the exercise of Mohawk sovereignty can be demonstrated to have beneficial consequences to all parties.

Yet the Mohawk lawyers refuse to adopt a more aggressive strategy and counsel their clients to get the best of a very bad deal when there are many alternatives open to the Mohawk people.

But where to begin?

Start by firing every one of those timid lawyers (especially those who, even now, have not met with the Mohawk people) and begin to assert through direction action what is, by natural law and aboriginal right, ours.

[Note: In the six million acre Oneida claim the courts ruled aboriginal claims invalid. Have a nice day. ]

You never fail to amuse us when you display the tortured contortions you perform, and defend to the death, the inherent "rightfulness" of every court judgement that works to your advantage, while simultaneously claiming wholesale legal incompetence of all involved with any decision that does NOT (as you demonstrate here).

However unintentional on your part, it's always a situationally ironic form of entertainment, to follow your posts on these and other similar subjects, Rich. smirk
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/15/14 11:03 AM

Do not get used to replies from me to your nonsense Timbo. You really are a total waste of time. I am doing so only this once because of a request from a friend of mine.

As always your lack of ability to connect a dot to itself and reading comprehension incompetence continue to make you the forum fool. Your arrogant snobbish attitude can not and do not disprove the facts I present because they are the truths from which you hide.

My refusal to play your childish games of bickering to diminish the usefulness of threads exposing your lies obviously have you frustrated as you have even trolled me into the joke forum with more childish comments. You have exposed your hatred of the real facts and my abilities to expose you for what you are.

If you were earnest in seeking the real facts as opposed to spewing your hatred you really should watch the movie America. You will hate it like you hate all the other facts dispelling your lies.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2785390/reviews?ref_=tt_ov_rt

I was kind of on my feet about what I was going to see yesterday. The beginning of the movie really felt like some Liberal Agenda type movie because it was at first primarily focused on the people who dislike this country and their reasons. However, as the movie progressed we see how the movie goes to scholars and identifies the flaws that many of the leaders of these groups, as political and other organizations try to make the United States look like an evil empire.

Dinesh D'Souza goes in great and complete detail with historians who have published false work and who are also unqualified as historians. And yet, their work is forced to be read as curriculum in many schools. It will definitely shine a new light with the many people who are trying to make a legacy for themselves as an expense to the history and greatness of this country.

No matter your political affiliation unless you really like hating this country, you will really enjoy and feel good about it after this movie. There has been a lot of propaganda about the "Imperialism of the United States" and its evil around the world. This is probably the most worked on, informative, and honest documentary I have ever seen. If you want to prove it yourself, go to the back of the Theater with you smart phone and google all the facts that are presented in this movie. I had to watch the movie three times, and did not find any discrepancies. Some things that are identified is the myth of genocide of the Native Americans, the evil of Capitalism, the stealing of work and resources from other people, and the association of the false historians that have spread their propaganda with politicians and terrorist organizations. It is completely mind blowing when you actually have recordings of what people have said. I have truly never seen so many facts and information put into one film. There are people that sadly read this review and think, none of those pieces of information can be true, but I would beg you to open your mind and look at the facts one more time. These are the facts, presented by third person point of view from people from other countries. It also makes you question where you got your original facts from and their political and social affiliations.

All in all, probably one of the best documentaries of all time! You must watch this movie! I think that it actually reaffirms love for this country which is really important. It makes you ask if this country is really evil or it is a great leader for this world. I think anyone no matter their political affiliation wants to love this country and this movie presents itself as an opportunity to do so!
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/15/14 12:10 PM

Quote:
You never fail to amuse us


Ah...the old collectivist "us". LOL...you don't even have the nuts to stand up on your own two feet. If you ever did, you might be able to see that you have only one other person in your posse, and he's a worthless, immature idiot.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/15/14 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Do not get used to replies from me to your nonsense Timbo. You really are a total waste of time. I am doing so only this once because of a request from a friend of mine.

As always your lack of ability to connect a dot to itself and reading comprehension incompetence continue to make you the forum fool. Your arrogant snobbish attitude can not and do not disprove the facts I present because they are the truths from which you hide.

My refusal to play your childish games of bickering to diminish the usefulness of threads exposing your lies obviously have you frustrated as you have even trolled me into the joke forum with more childish comments. You have exposed your hatred of the real facts and my abilities to expose you for what you are.
I don't like to gloat but I am going to make an exception. grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/15/14 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
You never fail to amuse us

Ah...the old collectivist "us". LOL...you don't even have the nuts to stand up on your own two feet. If you ever did, you might be able to see that you have only one other person in your posse, and he's a worthless, immature idiot.
I don't like to gloat but I am going to make an exception. grin
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/15/14 09:04 PM

http://romesentinel.com/county/settlement-shuts-off-oneida-indian-nation-funds-for-verona-fire-district/QBqngj!xSkVuOqPu75OzdLGQzyIug/
Settlement shuts off Oneida Indian Nation funds for Verona Fire District

An agreement that has paid the Verona Fire District more than $1.3 million over the last two decades is being ended by the Oneida Indian Nation as a result of last year's settlement with the state. And Oneida County, which is slated to receive millions of dollars annually under the same settlement, may be stepping in to help, at least in the short term.

The Oneidas' decision to end the agreement as of Wednesday puts the district in a substantial fiscal hole - the $100,000 represents nearly one-third of the budget. The district is reviewing its options in light of the shortfall.

The district has received $100,000 a year in quarterly installments in recent years. Now it looks like the district will receive only $50,000 this year and none starting next year. The district, through the Verona Fire Department, provides fire protection and rescue services to the tribe's massive Turning Stone Resort Casino and other nation properties in the district.

"... the Nation will be terminating the Fire Protection Services Agreement effective July 16, 2014," states the letter sent by Oneida Nation general counsel Meghan Murphy Beakman to Philip DuChene at the fire district.

The letter, which is dated June 16, asserts that the fire protection agreement is now obsolete because of the settlement. For the first time ever, Turning Stone revenue is now being shared with the state.

"The nation's payments cover all local tax revenue, including Town of Verona fire district taxes," wrote Beakman. "Inasmuch as the Nation has begun making its full payments under the FPSA (Fire Protection Service Agreement), the additional payments are duplicative and the FPSA is no longer necessary."

The district's budget is funded through a tax on properties and the Oneidas’ payment. There's been a fire protection agreement since 1993.The department now responds to about 100 calls a year on nation land.

The nation's letter informing the district of the decision to unilaterally terminate the agreement seems to indirectly suggest the district could look to the county for help in addressing the shortfall, and that is an avenue being pursued.

"The 2013 Settlement Agreement between the State of New York, Oneida County, Madison County and the Oneida Nation provides for the Nation to make significant payments to the State, which, in turn, remits millions of dollars to Oneida County every year in satisfaction of any for any property taxes claimed to be due," states the letter from the Oneidas. "The Settlement Agreement makes clear that these payments are in full satisfaction of "tax revenues of any kind.'"

The tribe sends the state 25 percent of its net gaming revenue from its slot machines. Based on estimates when the agreement was announced in May 2013, that represents about $50 million annually to the state.

The state, in turn, is sharing this money with Oneida and Madison counties. Oneida, as host county for the casino, is getting one-fourth of the state's payment, approximately $12.5 million based on current gaming revenues. In addition, it is receiving a $2.5 million annual payment for 19 years from the state share to settle back property tax claims.

The district is responsible for the Verona Fire Department's buildings and equipment, including vehicles. Indeed, Verona's aerial truck was bought several years ago only because of the 19-story Towel Hotel at the casino. This hotel is the tallest structure between Albany and Syracuse.

After learning of the nation's letter, County Legislator Michael J. Clancy, D-4, Verona, reached out to County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr. Clancy is a member of the fire department.

"This is one of the unexpected consequences" of the settlement, said Clancy. He adds, "Our guys wanted to provide the best service they could."

He opposed the settlement when it went before the county legislators in May 2013.

The county executive is sympathetic to the fire district’s plight. He says he understands the position the fire district is in and wants to help if he can. He'd like to at least address this year's concerns of the fire district.

At this point, Picente is not endorsing a particular response.

The county official says the development "wasn't a huge surprise," noting questions about the fate of the fire district payment surfaced after the settlement was approved. The nation's termination letter ended the speculation about what, if anything, might happen.

The situation was the subject of a meeting of Picente, Board Chairman Gerald J. Fiorini, R-7, Rome, Clancy and fire district commissioners.

The county did not include any casino money in this year’s budget because of uncertainty about when it would start flowing to the county.

The settlement went into effect Mach 4. Thus, this year's casino money is unanticipated revenue. The first payment from the state was received May 9. Payments are made quarterly.

While the Oneidas will not be directly paying for fire protection and rescue services at Turning Stone and other nation properties, the department does not have the option of not responding to calls from within the district.

The Board of Legislators will have to approve the county giving any casino money to the fire district. A total of 13 votes will be needed for approval. There are 13 Republicans and 10 Democrats on the board. During a brief discussion of the situation at last week’s Republican legislative caucus, the reception was a lukewarm one.

One lawmaker questioned how much of its settlement money the county can afford to give to other governments and organizations impacted by the presence of tax-free Oneida Indian land. Another said the county needs to be careful so it doesn't set a costly precedent.

"I'm aware it is a Pandora's Box", said Majority Leader George E. Joseph, R-10, Westmoreland. "They've identified a shortfall."

"That money is dwindling, who knows," said Legislator Richard A. Flisnik, R-8, Marcy, who says the county does not have an unlimited windfall. He later said, "We don't have extra money, guys. We don't have extra money."

Flisnik wants to see some of the settlement money used to pay down the county's deferred contributions to the state retirement system.

However, another legislator suggested the county may have no choice but to respond with cash because the fire department needs to keep functioning. Still another likened fire and emergency calls to nation properties as similar to emergency responses to tax-exempt locations.

"Tony didn't commit to anything," said Fiorini when talking about the meeting with district commissioners."I just listened."

The tribe has no agreements with any other fire district.

The county has already agreed to share some of the settlement money with three municipalities and there may be more such agreements. The county budget was amended at this month's legislature meeting to allocate $2 million for this purpose.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/16/14 06:51 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
You never fail to amuse us


Ah...the old collectivist "us". LOL...you don't even have the nuts to stand up on your own two feet. If you ever did, you might be able to see that you have only one other person in your posse, and he's a worthless, immature idiot.


Ha! Cranky old sourpuss. Better start cleaning up that nasty karma before you come back as a banana slug. shocked



Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/18/14 12:38 AM

GOVERNMENT
Tribe Dispute Over Casino Rights to be Decided in Federal Court
Sara Brown July 17, 2014

The town of Aquinnah and a group of residents have petitioned to intervene in a federal lawsuit over whether the Wampanoag Tribe of Gay Head (Aquinnah) has the right to open a casino on the Vineyard. The court filings last week by the town and the Aquinnah/Gay Head Community Association came shortly after a judge ruled that the case would be tried in federal court.

At stake is whether the tribe has the legal right to open commercial gaming facilities on tribal lands in Aquinnah.

Last fall, the tribe said it had federal approval to move forward with plans to convert an unfinished community center into a bingo hall. Gov. Deval Patrick disagreed, saying that the tribe’s plans violated the terms of a 1983 land claims settlement agreement. The commonwealth filed a lawsuit against the tribe in state court last December.

Shortly after the lawsuit was filed, the tribe moved the action to federal court. The state responded by asking that the case be remanded to state court.

On July 1, U.S. District Court Judge F. Dennis Saylor 4th denied the state’s motion and found the case should remain in federal court.

“We are very pleased that Judge Saylor has recognized that the question of Aquinnah’s right to game is governed by the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, passed by Congress in 1988, and belongs in federal court,” Cheryl Andrews-Maltais, chairman of the Aquinnah Wampanoag Gaming Corporation, said in a statement. “The U.S. Department of the Interior and the National Indian Gaming Commission have each provided formal legal opinions in support of our rights. We now have all of the federal approvals required to proceed with gaming on our existing trust lands, and we are confident, in light of this decision, that the federal court will confirm Aquinnah’s sovereign and federal statutory rights to do so.”

The tribe elected a new chairman in November. In February, the tribe reaffirmed plans to build a casino after a referendum to end the plan failed by two votes.

Last Thursday, the town of Aquinnah and the community association filed motions to intervene in the case. The motion filed by the town of Aquinnah notes that the town is the only party authorized to issue local permits and enforce local zoning. Commercial gaming is not allowed under the town’s zoning bylaws; the state can issue gaming licenses.

In separate filings, the town and community association, a nonprofit organization of residents, claim breach of contract, and seek a declaratory judgment that the tribe “may only engage in gaming activity after properly complying with all pertinent regulatory, permitting, and licensing requirements — including the relevant local zoning ordinances.” They ask that the court issue an injunction stating that the settlement agreement is enforceable and the tribe can only create gambling facilities after complying with regulatory requirements.

At the heart of the issue is whether the tribe waived its sovereignty rights in a 1983 land settlement act. The settlement, which later led to federal recognition for the tribe, allowed 400 acres of public and private land to be transferred to the tribe. The tribe agreed that those lands would be subject to local and state laws. In a landmark ruling in 2004, the state Supreme Judicial Court fund that the tribe had waived its sovereignty on land use matters and was bound to follow state and local zoning laws.

In the case now before the federal court, the tribe has argued that the Indian Gaming Rights Act of 1988 supersedes the settlement agreement and they are “totally cleared” to open a gaming facility on the Island.

“At the core of this case is the question of whether the agreement struck among the town, the tribal council, the commonwealth, and the AGHCA’s predecessor the Gay Head Taxpayers Association in 1983 is going to be enforced,” wrote community association president Larry Hohlt in an emailed statement this week. “Each of the parties to the 1983 agreement derived great benefits from it, and made significant compromises to obtain those benefits. We strongly disagree with the tribe’s position on the interaction of the Indian Gaming Reform Act with the 1983 settlement agreement.”

“We fully anticipated the town and taxpayers would try to intervene,” Ms. Andrews-Maltais said in a statement. “However, as the court stated, this is a matter of federal law. So in my opinion, the commonwealth is fully capable of representing any interests they may feel they have; since I believe all of their interests or rights are derived from the commonwealth.”

- See more at: http://mvgazette.com/news/2014/07/17/tribe-dispute-over-casino-rights-be-decided-
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/18/14 12:39 AM

Strange takes PCI dispute to federal appeals court
July 17, 2014

The state of Alabama, represented by Attorney General Luther Strange, has taken its case against the Poarch Band of Creek Indians (PCI) Gaming Authority to a federal appeals court.

Earlier this month, Strange’s office filed its opening brief to the 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta, arguing that PCI’s casinos are illegal in the state of Alabama. On Thursday, April 11, Judge W. Keith Watkins of the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Alabama, Northern Division, granted PCI’s motion to dismiss the lawsuit.

The state appealed Watkins’ decision on May 5, and the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals is handling the appeal.

In the 60-page appellant’s brief, Strange cites the U.S. Supreme Court case of Carcieri v. Salazar, which ruled that the federal government could only take land into trust for tribes that were under federal jurisdiction before 1934. PCI did not receive its federal recognition until 1984.

“In Carcieri v. Salazar, the Supreme Court held that the [Interior] Secretary has no authority ‘to acquire land and hold it in trust’ for tribes that were not ‘under federal jurisdiction when the I[ndian] R[eorganization] A[ct] was enacted in June 1934,” according to the state’s brief. “Can the state litigate the issue of whether the Poarch Band was ‘under federal jurisdiction’ in 1934 in response to the defendants’ argument that their gambling activities are on ‘Indian lands’ such that federal law preempts the state-law claim?”

Strange also argues that PCI’s casinos are governed by the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA), which provides that a state must consent before a tribe offers “class III” games, which include “slot machines of any kind.” The National Indian Gaming Commission has previously confirmed that PCI only operates Class II electronic bingo machines, which do not require state consent.

However, Strange’s brief cites the IGRA to argue that PCI’s casino machines can not qualify as Class II gaming.

“The term ‘Class II gaming’ does not include … (ii) electric or electromechanical facsimiles of any game of change or slot machines of any kind,” the brief states, citing the IGRA.

“Because ‘slot machines of any kind’ cannot be operated without a state’s consent under IGRA, slot machine manufacturers and Indian tribes have gone to great lengths to conflate class III slot machines with ‘technological aids’ used to play the class II game of bingo,” the state argues, in the brief. “…By recasting class III machines as class II ‘technological aids,’ tribal gambling officers have avoided the necessity of negotiating a compact with the surrounding state.

“…The defendants’ gambling devices play like, look like, sound like, and attract the same class of customers as acknowledged slot machines.”

As of Wednesday, PCI Gaming Authority had not yet filed its brief. PCI officials have said it is the tribe’s policy not to comment on pending litigation.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/20/14 10:00 PM

Federal v. State lands and jurisdiction and executive branch agencies building their own armies are not specifically tribal news, but they are related as the feds continue to use tribes in attempts to steal State lands.

BLM, Utah counties wrangle over law enforcement
Public lands - State leaders incensed that feds canceled contracts.
By Brian Maffly
The Salt Lake Tribune
Jun 19 2014

The federal Bureau of Land Management has unilaterally terminated long-standing contracts with county sheriffs to provide law enforcement on Utah’s public lands, a move that is seriously eroding interagency cooperation and possibly public safety, according to testimony Wednesday before a legislative committee.

Under these contracts, the BLM compensated sheriff’s departments for patrolling vast swaths of public lands, responding to emergencies and rescues, and enforcing the law on busy weekends at recreation hotspots, such as Little Sahara Sand Dunes.

But in recent months, the BLM has refused to renew contracts with Utah counties, citing legal deficiencies — such as a failure to list what "deliverables" the sheriffs were providing, Lt. Gov. Spencer Cox told the Interim Natural Resources, Agriculture and Environment Committee.

He argued the agency's refusal to renew the contracts is "retribution" for Utah’s actions to assert control over public lands, such the 2012 law demanding the transfer of 30 million federal acres to the state. For proof, he claimed similar contracts are renewed in other states and between Utah counties and the U.S. Forest Service.

As a Sanpete County commissioner, Cox signed such agreements, which served the public well, he said.

Speaking on a panel with Cox at Wednesday’s committee meeting, BLM state director Juan Palma rejected the claim that the contract cancellations were political payback. But the decision to nix the contracts was not made by Palma. It was made by Daniel Love, special agent in charge for Nevada and Utah, who reports to the BLM's Office of Law Enforcement and Security in Washington, DC.

Cox described his conservations with Love last spring as a contest "to see who can pee the farthest" and said the agent has yet to provide documentation explaining the cancellations.

This spat could mark a new low in Utah's relationship with the BLM, which administers nearly 23 million acres covering 42 percent of the state. State and local leaders complain the agency is failing to accommodate grazing and energy development on public lands, allowing wild horses to proliferate and encroaching on county jurisdiction.

Utah counties are now formally declaring federal authority a threat to "the health, safety and welfare" of their citizens. Three counties — Iron, Garfield and Carbon — have passed resolutions restricting or banning federal law enforcement within their borders.



Battle between Utah's rural counties and BLM intensifies
By Amy Joi O'Donoghue , Deseret News
June 28 2014

When Garfield County Sheriff Danny Perkins sat down in a conference room with the national director of the Bureau of Land Management's law enforcement operations, he had a series of numbers in his head.

He was face to face with Sal Lauro, a Washington, D.C., decision-maker who could make life somewhat easier back home in Garfield County, or keep it strained.

The numbers were plain: $70,000, 464, and zero.

"Since the first of July 2013 to the end of April 2014, I have spent $70,000 on helicopter time from the Department of Public Safety, 464 hours of actual boot time on the ground with officers on search and rescue operations on the (Grand Staircase-Escalante National) monument and I have been assisted absolutely nothing, zero, from the BLM."

Perkins accompanied six county commissioners from Iron, Beaver and Garfield counties to Washington, D.C., for a series of meetings last week to air complaints — chief among them the fractured and abysmal experience rural Utah has with top law enforcement officials from the Bureau of Land Management.

"We have absolutely no relationship with the BLM. We have tried; they seem to want to do their own thing," Perkins said. "They do not respect the authority of the sheriff at all. It is hard for them to accept that this sheriff is the chief law enforcement officer in this county."

Accusations abound

The meeting in Washington happened the same day members of the Utah natural resources legislative interim committee hosted a public roundtable discussion in Salt Lake City with Juan Palma, director of the Utah BLM, and Kevin Rice, special agent in charge with the U.S. Forest Service in Salt Lake City, among others.

BLM spokeswoman Megan Crandall said the legislative hearing did nothing to improve relationships.

"The only way to resolve this issue is to have serious dialogue and productive discussions and those two items were not present at that meeting," she said. "It was not the appropriate forum for how we are going to drive home a solution that is positive for everyone involved."

In the aftermath of embattled Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy's showdown with the BLM in April, in the devolution of county law enforcement contracts with the BLM in Utah that were not renewed, rural counties are wary, frustrated, defiant and angry.

"We have many examples of the abuse and this militarization of the government agencies is a real problem," said Garfield County Commissioner Leland Pollock, who also traveled to Washington, D.C. "If this guy does something that blows up, we are all going to be on the TV. It is a scary scenario, especially in rural Utah."

The "this guy" Pollock is referring to is BLM's special agent in charge Dan Love, who commissioners accuse of spreading a culture of dismissiveness and arrogance among his coworkers. Pollock said county commissioners want Lauro to step in and find a solution.

"He has created a situation where they thumb their noses at us," Pollock said. "This starts at the top."

Defending the BLM

At the legislative hearing, Palma, the Utah BLM director, noted that Love answers to Washington, D.C. officials and is carrying out rules he didn't write. Palma defended Love as performing his job.

Love did not comment directly on the allegations regarding his working relationship with local sheriff's agencies, but offered this statement:

“Working together is the only way to navigate current issues and meet future law enforcement challenges, and I look forward to having the serious, productive discussions necessary to make that a reality.”

Pollock said county officials want action, not explanations.

His county has joined with Carbon, Beaver, Piute and Iron counties in the passage of resolutions declaring federal law enforcement authority is not recognized in their jurisdictions.

Pollock said the resolutions put the federal government on notice there will be no tolerance for overwhelming force and intimidation.

"We feel like they are a threat to the people in our county," Pollock said. "A resolution is exactly that; easily converted into county ordinance which we are prepared to do if something is not resolved. Our message is you have a serious problem, let's work this out before we take it to county law."

Armed agents

The rising anxiety over "armed" federal regulatory agencies is not unique to Utah, with Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, highlighting incidences that have happened in Los Angeles and at a mining operation in Alaska.

Earlier this week Stewart unveiled legislation that aims to "de-militarize" federal regulatory agencies and prevent them from having armed SWAT teams.

"I understand that federal agents must be capable of protecting themselves. But what we have goes far beyond providing the necessary protection," he said. "...Not only is it overkill, but having these highly armed units within dozens of agencies is duplicative, costly, heavy-handed, dangerous and destroys any sense of trust between citizens and the federal government."

But BLM Utah spokeswoman Megan Crandall said any attempt to solve on-the-ground issues is compounded by meetings like the recent legislative hearing and the anti-federal government resolutions by the counties.

"It is frustrating as we work to identify the best possible path forward for everyone when some of the entities we are trying to work with consistently feel the need to poke us in the eye and then complain we are not working with them," she said.

Perkins and Pollock point out that it's been impossible to have any sort of "productive" relationship with the BLM because of what they called the confrontational behavior they don't experience with other federal agencies.

"I got a really good working relationship with the U.S. Forest Service and I have always had a good relationship with the (national) parks people," Perkins said. "The problem is with the BLM."

Perkins said that he has three national park rangers who are deputized in Garfield County and a similar arrangement with the U.S. Forest Service, but he wouldn't entertain that arrangement with the BLM because of the conduct of the agency's officers.

"There's no way in the world I would consider deputizing the BLM officers I have in this county — none," he said. "I have had the folks in northern Utah tell me they'll never come back to my county because of how they were treated by the BLM officers at the monument."

Perkins noted that BLM officers have stopped motorists for having gun racks and have demanded to look in coolers in campsites, among other things.

Cancelled contracts

The counties and the state of Utah believe Love "cancelled" $244,000 worth of BLM contracts with multiple rural counties out of retaliation for a state law that attempted to rein in federal law enforcement authority on federal lands.

Crandall said the counties and state are wrong.

"Ultimately, BLM-Utah's law enforcement service contracts are designed to address BLM-specific goals and concerns, to maximize the safety of people visiting public lands and to ensure resources are appropriately protected," she said. "These contracts are not based on a relationship— positive or negative — with one, single person."

Crandall said that a review team looked at the contractual arrangements, determined improvements were necessary and decided to let the contracts lapse. Love, she stressed, was not part of that decision.

"It has been intimated that allowing the contracts to expire was retaliatory, and I can tell you unequivocally that is not true."

Any decision to renew arrangements with local sheriff agencies will be made at the Washington, D.C., level, not by the Salt Lake City office, she said.

Carbon County Commissioner Casey Hope said he and other elected officials have taken some criticism for their "anti-federal" resolution, but he said critics don't understand what happens on the ground.

"There's a big misunderstanding on whose duties are what," he said. "If you go out and get in a wreck, hurt or lost, it is not the BLM who goes out and finds you, it's Carbon County sheriffs, Carbon County Search and Rescue. They are the agencies that go out and find you and help you. Nothing has changed. "

Carbon County's resolution, he said, is an attempt to ward off problems being encountered elsewhere in the state.

"We are trying to make sure we don't have those kinds of problems, those kind of heated debates. The BLM has specific duties and their duties are to look after the land. We'll take care of the law enforcement."
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/28/14 02:18 PM

Cuomo discontinues Moreland Commission

wonder who has too many things 'hidden in their closet'?

whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/28/14 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Federal v. State lands and jurisdiction and executive branch agencies building their own armies are not specifically tribal news, but they are related as the feds continue to use tribes in attempts to steal State lands.

BLM, Utah counties wrangle over law enforcement
Public lands - State leaders incensed that feds canceled contracts.
By Brian Maffly
The Salt Lake Tribune
Jun 19 2014

The federal Bureau of Land Management has unilaterally terminated long-standing contracts with county sheriffs to provide law enforcement on Utah’s public lands, a move that is seriously eroding interagency cooperation and possibly public safety, according to testimony Wednesday before a legislative committee.

Under these contracts, the BLM compensated sheriff’s departments for patrolling vast swaths of public lands, responding to emergencies and rescues, and enforcing the law on busy weekends at recreation hotspots, such as Little Sahara Sand Dunes.

But in recent months, the BLM has refused to renew contracts with Utah counties, citing legal deficiencies — such as a failure to list what "deliverables" the sheriffs were providing, Lt. Gov. Spencer Cox told the Interim Natural Resources, Agriculture and Environment Committee.

He argued the agency's refusal to renew the contracts is "retribution" for Utah’s actions to assert control over public lands, such the 2012 law demanding the transfer of 30 million federal acres to the state. For proof, he claimed similar contracts are renewed in other states and between Utah counties and the U.S. Forest Service.

As a Sanpete County commissioner, Cox signed such agreements, which served the public well, he said.

Speaking on a panel with Cox at Wednesday’s committee meeting, BLM state director Juan Palma rejected the claim that the contract cancellations were political payback. But the decision to nix the contracts was not made by Palma. It was made by Daniel Love, special agent in charge for Nevada and Utah, who reports to the BLM's Office of Law Enforcement and Security in Washington, DC.

Cox described his conservations with Love last spring as a contest "to see who can pee the farthest" and said the agent has yet to provide documentation explaining the cancellations.

This spat could mark a new low in Utah's relationship with the BLM, which administers nearly 23 million acres covering 42 percent of the state. State and local leaders complain the agency is failing to accommodate grazing and energy development on public lands, allowing wild horses to proliferate and encroaching on county jurisdiction.

Utah counties are now formally declaring federal authority a threat to "the health, safety and welfare" of their citizens. Three counties — Iron, Garfield and Carbon — have passed resolutions restricting or banning federal law enforcement within their borders.



Battle between Utah's rural counties and BLM intensifies
By Amy Joi O'Donoghue , Deseret News
June 28 2014

When Garfield County Sheriff Danny Perkins sat down in a conference room with the national director of the Bureau of Land Management's law enforcement operations, he had a series of numbers in his head.

He was face to face with Sal Lauro, a Washington, D.C., decision-maker who could make life somewhat easier back home in Garfield County, or keep it strained.

The numbers were plain: $70,000, 464, and zero.

"Since the first of July 2013 to the end of April 2014, I have spent $70,000 on helicopter time from the Department of Public Safety, 464 hours of actual boot time on the ground with officers on search and rescue operations on the (Grand Staircase-Escalante National) monument and I have been assisted absolutely nothing, zero, from the BLM."

Perkins accompanied six county commissioners from Iron, Beaver and Garfield counties to Washington, D.C., for a series of meetings last week to air complaints — chief among them the fractured and abysmal experience rural Utah has with top law enforcement officials from the Bureau of Land Management.

"We have absolutely no relationship with the BLM. We have tried; they seem to want to do their own thing," Perkins said. "They do not respect the authority of the sheriff at all. It is hard for them to accept that this sheriff is the chief law enforcement officer in this county."

Accusations abound

The meeting in Washington happened the same day members of the Utah natural resources legislative interim committee hosted a public roundtable discussion in Salt Lake City with Juan Palma, director of the Utah BLM, and Kevin Rice, special agent in charge with the U.S. Forest Service in Salt Lake City, among others.

BLM spokeswoman Megan Crandall said the legislative hearing did nothing to improve relationships.

"The only way to resolve this issue is to have serious dialogue and productive discussions and those two items were not present at that meeting," she said. "It was not the appropriate forum for how we are going to drive home a solution that is positive for everyone involved."

In the aftermath of embattled Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy's showdown with the BLM in April, in the devolution of county law enforcement contracts with the BLM in Utah that were not renewed, rural counties are wary, frustrated, defiant and angry.

"We have many examples of the abuse and this militarization of the government agencies is a real problem," said Garfield County Commissioner Leland Pollock, who also traveled to Washington, D.C. "If this guy does something that blows up, we are all going to be on the TV. It is a scary scenario, especially in rural Utah."

The "this guy" Pollock is referring to is BLM's special agent in charge Dan Love, who commissioners accuse of spreading a culture of dismissiveness and arrogance among his coworkers. Pollock said county commissioners want Lauro to step in and find a solution.

"He has created a situation where they thumb their noses at us," Pollock said. "This starts at the top."

Defending the BLM

At the legislative hearing, Palma, the Utah BLM director, noted that Love answers to Washington, D.C. officials and is carrying out rules he didn't write. Palma defended Love as performing his job.

Love did not comment directly on the allegations regarding his working relationship with local sheriff's agencies, but offered this statement:

“Working together is the only way to navigate current issues and meet future law enforcement challenges, and I look forward to having the serious, productive discussions necessary to make that a reality.”

Pollock said county officials want action, not explanations.

His county has joined with Carbon, Beaver, Piute and Iron counties in the passage of resolutions declaring federal law enforcement authority is not recognized in their jurisdictions.

Pollock said the resolutions put the federal government on notice there will be no tolerance for overwhelming force and intimidation.

"We feel like they are a threat to the people in our county," Pollock said. "A resolution is exactly that; easily converted into county ordinance which we are prepared to do if something is not resolved. Our message is you have a serious problem, let's work this out before we take it to county law."

Armed agents

The rising anxiety over "armed" federal regulatory agencies is not unique to Utah, with Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, highlighting incidences that have happened in Los Angeles and at a mining operation in Alaska.

Earlier this week Stewart unveiled legislation that aims to "de-militarize" federal regulatory agencies and prevent them from having armed SWAT teams.

"I understand that federal agents must be capable of protecting themselves. But what we have goes far beyond providing the necessary protection," he said. "...Not only is it overkill, but having these highly armed units within dozens of agencies is duplicative, costly, heavy-handed, dangerous and destroys any sense of trust between citizens and the federal government."

But BLM Utah spokeswoman Megan Crandall said any attempt to solve on-the-ground issues is compounded by meetings like the recent legislative hearing and the anti-federal government resolutions by the counties.

"It is frustrating as we work to identify the best possible path forward for everyone when some of the entities we are trying to work with consistently feel the need to poke us in the eye and then complain we are not working with them," she said.

Perkins and Pollock point out that it's been impossible to have any sort of "productive" relationship with the BLM because of what they called the confrontational behavior they don't experience with other federal agencies.

"I got a really good working relationship with the U.S. Forest Service and I have always had a good relationship with the (national) parks people," Perkins said. "The problem is with the BLM."

Perkins said that he has three national park rangers who are deputized in Garfield County and a similar arrangement with the U.S. Forest Service, but he wouldn't entertain that arrangement with the BLM because of the conduct of the agency's officers.

"There's no way in the world I would consider deputizing the BLM officers I have in this county — none," he said. "I have had the folks in northern Utah tell me they'll never come back to my county because of how they were treated by the BLM officers at the monument."

Perkins noted that BLM officers have stopped motorists for having gun racks and have demanded to look in coolers in campsites, among other things.

Cancelled contracts

The counties and the state of Utah believe Love "cancelled" $244,000 worth of BLM contracts with multiple rural counties out of retaliation for a state law that attempted to rein in federal law enforcement authority on federal lands.

Crandall said the counties and state are wrong.

"Ultimately, BLM-Utah's law enforcement service contracts are designed to address BLM-specific goals and concerns, to maximize the safety of people visiting public lands and to ensure resources are appropriately protected," she said. "These contracts are not based on a relationship— positive or negative — with one, single person."

Crandall said that a review team looked at the contractual arrangements, determined improvements were necessary and decided to let the contracts lapse. Love, she stressed, was not part of that decision.

"It has been intimated that allowing the contracts to expire was retaliatory, and I can tell you unequivocally that is not true."

Any decision to renew arrangements with local sheriff agencies will be made at the Washington, D.C., level, not by the Salt Lake City office, she said.

Carbon County Commissioner Casey Hope said he and other elected officials have taken some criticism for their "anti-federal" resolution, but he said critics don't understand what happens on the ground.

"There's a big misunderstanding on whose duties are what," he said. "If you go out and get in a wreck, hurt or lost, it is not the BLM who goes out and finds you, it's Carbon County sheriffs, Carbon County Search and Rescue. They are the agencies that go out and find you and help you. Nothing has changed. "

Carbon County's resolution, he said, is an attempt to ward off problems being encountered elsewhere in the state.

"We are trying to make sure we don't have those kinds of problems, those kind of heated debates. The BLM has specific duties and their duties are to look after the land. We'll take care of the law enforcement."

So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on.
grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/28/14 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on. grin
OMG. ROFLMAO. That is what you expect of me! Do your own research you say. What a double talker you are.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, I CAN all right. I simply refuse to indulge you in that which you should be responsible for doing yourself. It's that simple. Now take some responsibility, Junior.
When it comes to the Indian situation, I have never seen anyone talk out of both sides of their mouth as much as you. I don't know what you think you are tying to prove but it isn't working.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/28/14 11:19 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on. grin
OMG. ROFLMAO. That is what you expect of me! Do your own research you say. What a double talker you are.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, I CAN all right. I simply refuse to indulge you in that which you should be responsible for doing yourself. It's that simple. Now take some responsibility, Junior.
When it comes to the Indian situation, I have never seen anyone talk out of both sides of their mouth as much as you. I don't know what you think you are tying to prove...

That you're an imbecile, apparently. smirk

There's one tiny distinction that seems to have slipped the grasp of your alleged "brain"... and that's that it's neither contradiction nor double talk, when you're NOT the one making the BS assertion (like you and Richie are).

Now, do you think you're capable of storing that little crucial nugget of FACT away for future reference, should you ever again get the urge to make another dumb comment, such as that one ? ? ?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/29/14 03:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
It took me fewer than two minutes to come up with a list of twenty or so, that are displayed on the screen in front of me.
Geniuses like you two, should be able to do it in mere seconds. grin
And this isn't a BS assertion? It certainly is and you expect us to take your word for it. Unbelievable.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/29/14 08:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links


LOL

yawn...
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/29/14 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
It took me fewer than two minutes to come up with a list of twenty or so, that are displayed on the screen in front of me.
Geniuses like you two, should be able to do it in mere seconds. grin
And this isn't a BS assertion? It certainly is and you expect us to take your word for it. Unbelievable.

So tell everyone, how many hits did YOU come up with when you did a search? grin

What's that you say... you never bothered to ? ? ?

Funny how that works. Just dodge all personal due diligence, then go after someone else using a wholly non-applicable argument, all in a clear attempt to avoid the fact that you may be wrong.

How very "adult" of you.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/29/14 11:25 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links

LOL

*see above.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/29/14 11:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
It took me fewer than two minutes to come up with a list of twenty or so, that are displayed on the screen in front of me.
Geniuses like you two, should be able to do it in mere seconds. grin
And this isn't a BS assertion? It certainly is and you expect us to take your word for it. Unbelievable.
So tell everyone, how many hits did YOU come up with when you did a search? grin

What's that you say... you never bothered to ? ? ?
That is right. I did not bother. I supply all the information I have available to me. You don't do that because most of it is stuff you just make up.
Quote:
Funny how that works. Just dodge all personal due diligence, then go after someone else using a wholly non-applicable argument, all in a clear attempt to avoid the fact that you may be wrong.

How very "adult" of you.
Ya real funny. I may be wrong? We will never know because you are impossible to debate with. I am beginning to think you don't care anything about the Indians. You just post nonsense to see how much of my time you can waste.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 03:54 AM

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/18791-exploiting-indians
Tuesday, 29 July 2014 15:30
Post 1 of 3
Exploiting Indians

Many of Doug Thompson’s constituents are nervous. Some are angry. More still are confused. The soft-spoken Wyoming cattle rancher has been ranching in vast Fremont County since 1970, and has been on the County Commission for 14 years, serving as the chair for a decade now. Despite the brutal winters, it is a quiet and beautiful area, where hard-working descendants of pioneers, alongside Native Americans, have eked out a meager living from the land for over a century, mostly in agriculture, tourism, and energy. Slightly more than 40,000 people live there, spread out across a county that is about the size of Vermont.

Thompson's ranch, located some 45 miles from the local Indian reservation, is not in jeopardy right now. But the same cannot be said, at least not with any degree of certainty, for the rights of thousands of other citizens in the area, whose businesses, lands, self-government, access to water, and potentially even livelihoods may be under threat — at least if the Obama administration and its increasingly lawless Environmental Protection Agency get their way.

In December, defying established federal law and multiple U.S. court rulings, unelected bureaucrats at the EPA made Fremont County perhaps the most high-profile battleground in a quiet but disturbing assault taking place across much of the nation. Working with other departments, the EPA unilaterally purported to place the city of Riverton, Wyoming, inside the nearby Indian reservation's boundaries — and more importantly, under the jurisdiction of tribal authorities for the Wind River Indian tribes. At least two smaller towns, Kinnear and Pavillion, were also decreed by the EPA to be within tribal borders.

Riverton is the largest town in Fremont County, home to more than one-fourth of the population and serving as the economic hub for the region. In 1905, Native Americans were paid and Congress passed a law opening up parts of the area to settlers, decreasing the size of the vast Indian reservation. By most accounts, relations between Native Americans and other county residents had generally been peaceful and friendly. As the federal government and the tribal governments it funds team up against non-tribal members, though, tensions are reportedly rising.

The boundary dispute that recently made headlines across America with the EPA ruling has been simmering quietly under the surface for years. Wyoming officials and experts say Congress settled the question more than a century ago — along with the courts in subsequent rulings. But the Obama administration, apparently not agreeing with the law or the courts, handed over more than a million additional acres and three non-Indian towns to the tribes with a simple decree.

"My contention is that this is a congressional call," says Thompson, the rancher and County Commission chair. "It seems like under this current administration, they are trying to do all these things administratively, which is totally inappropriate. It's not up to a political regime to do this. It's a basic philosophical problem. The EPA should not be re-defining boundaries or subjecting citizens to a government that they have no formal say in — voting, access, and so on."

In an interview with The New American, Thompson explained that there has been a longtime effort by the tribal governments to reestablish the old boundaries of the reservation. Using litigation, for example, the federally funded tribal authorities — flush with federally granted casino-monopoly cash and U.S. taxpayer funds — have tried to establish jurisdiction over the land and its non-Indian inhabitants, too. Those efforts failed. However, following the lead of other Native American governments across the country, tribal leaders in Fremont County tried a new tactic.

According to an analysis of government documents, the EPA decision stemmed from a 2008 request by the Wind River Indian tribes to obtain "treatment as a state" (TAS) or "treatment similar to a state" (TSTS) under federal environmental regulatory schemes. In this case, it was done via an amendment to the Clean Air Act, which purports to impose EPA mandates on state governments. Once approved, the EPA ruling TAS allows tribal authorities to be "treated as a state" for regulatory purposes. That means tribal authorities can receive even more federal taxpayer dollars under the guise of implementing and enforcing various EPA regulations, which normally would be handled by the state government.

If the federal government and the tribal governments it funds succeed in Fremont County, everything from water rights and air quality to land use — in some cases even 50 miles beyond whatever the reservation boundary is determined to be — could be regulated by tribal authorities, over whom non-tribal members have no vote. For now, state and local officials have been instructed by the governor to continue operating as usual while the state government prepares to battle the Obama administration in court.

Among other major problems, the EPA ruling, made in consultation with the Obama administration’s Department of Interior and the Justice Department, might even make the city of Riverton ineligible for many state and local services, including law enforcement and emergency response. It also raises numerous concerns over taxation, regulation, permitting, and a wide range of other issues involving jurisdiction, officials and experts say. Even tribe members convicted of crimes in state courts may be able to challenge the state’s jurisdiction because they can claim the crimes they committed were perpetrated on the Indian reservation under tribal jurisdiction; in fact, it's already happening.

Under the arrangement prior to the EPA's ruling, the Indian reservation was under tribal jurisdiction, along with any lands held in federal trust for the tribes outside the formal reservation boundaries. The federal Bureau of Indian Affairs and other agencies handle much of the governance, despite claims of tribal "sovereignty" parroted by the feds and the tribes. Non-members of the tribes, meanwhile, were subject to state and local authorities such as the sheriff and state regulators.

"What this would do is put Riverton, the irrigation districts, and the main non-tribal areas — those are state, county, and municipal jurisdictions — under the tribes' governments. They could assert significant jurisdiction, up to and including taxation and regulation," Thompson said. "That doesn’t mean if the EPA decision stands, that would happen, but in other states that has happened. The tribes say, ‘We’re not gonna do that right now.' Well, maybe they aren't going to now, but all they have to do is go to court and say this is their jurisdiction."

When the EPA decision was first announced, Thompson explained, many county residents were confused and frightened. “The first question that came out was, ‘What is the security of the deeds to our property?’” he said. "The answer is that, if you own the property, you still own it. The difference will be in how you can use your property." And that difference, of course, is crucial, since property could be useless if it cannot be freely used.

"If you bring another governmental jurisdiction into the mix — say there were permitting regulations exerted — then you'd have to get a tribal permit as well," the commission chair explained. "Now that hits on the foundational problem in this whole deal: You are subjecting non-tribal members to a governmental entity that they have absolutely no say in, because they are not tribal members. You’re totally subject to a tribal government authority that you have no say in. You can’t vote for the leaders. If they don’t want to meet you, they just shut down the meeting. That's the crux of this whole thing."

"The non-tribe members are greatly concerned," Thompson said of county residents. "Citizens are nervous about what this means — they're hearing a lot of mixed messages. They hear from tribal members 'we're gonna take your land back, we're gonna regulate you out of business,' so they're justifiably concerned." Even the mayor of Riverton says he has received similar threats.

State-level Resistance

In Wyoming, the deeply controversial executive-branch machinations that purported to place Riverton, Kinnear, and Pavillion inside tribal boundaries have sparked a massive outcry among residents and state officials, with Wyoming Governor Matt Mead and his administration vowing to fight back.

"My deep concern is about an administrative agency of the federal government altering a state's boundary and going against over 100 years of history and law," the governor added in a statement. "This should be a concern to all citizens because, if the EPA can unilaterally take land away from a state, where will it stop?" The governor also thanked the Wyoming attorney general and his staff for urgently preparing a thorough review of the historical record on the issue. "This analysis shows how flawed the EPA was in its legal justification for its decision," Mead said, adding that all avenues would be pursued. "The federal government clearly had a predetermined outcome it sought to uphold."

In a petition to EPA bosses asking the agency to reconsider and stay its decision, Wyoming Attorney General Peter Michael said the Obama administration's scheme depends on "a host of faulty factual and legal conclusions." The document cites a broad range of statutes, treaties, and court decisions, arguing that the EPA essentially cherry-picked arguments in a manner “more akin to advocacy” to reach a determination that is simply “wrong.” The attorney general said that the decision would strip the state of its sovereign right to exercise jurisdiction over lands "rightly within its control" and that it must be overturned — or at least delayed until the courts can review it. "A failure to do so will likely lead to civil and criminal jurisdictional turmoil, irreparably harming the public interest," he warned, echoing widespread concerns.

Wyoming's entire delegation to the U.S. Congress has also expressed deep concerns, with Senator John Barrasso blasting the Obama administration for again thinking it "can ignore the law of the land when it suits their agenda."

EPA and the Tribes

The federal government has been suspiciously quiet since dropping the bombshell on Wyoming in December. The agency did eventually stay its decision as the legal battle in the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals proceeds. Some analysts expect that litigation to eventually end up before the Supreme Court.

Tribal leaders, on the other hand, have responded to the growing uproar across the state — and even the nation — in a variety of ways, particularly by trying to downplay fears and attack critics. As has become typical, tribal officials were quick to suggest that opposition to the EPA decision and the tribal governments’ actions may be based on “racism.” Ironically, even the mere suggestion that everyone should be treated equally under the law regardless of race is often met with howls of "racism" from powerful tribal leaders rolling in federal taxpayer dollars and revenue generated from casino monopolies (granted to tribal governments by the 1988 Indian Gaming Regulatory Act).

In Fremont County, tribal leaders have also claimed that they mostly just want "clean air," though they have also become increasingly bold in discussing the "potential" for further jurisdictional issues that should be "negotiated" rather than litigated. Tribal government leaders at the reservation were not available for comment and did not return phone calls to The New American by press time.

When the Citizens Equal Rights Alliance (CERA), which supports constitutional government, held a convention in Riverton about the ongoing issues, tribal leaders furiously lashed out, even comparing the non-profit group to the Ku Klux Klan. The establishment media in Wyoming disgracefully allowed its pages to promote the smear. However, group leaders and local citizens told The New American that the attacks were so far detached from reality that it was hard to believe the claims were even made — much less printed. CERA’s previous chair, for example, was a Cherokee Indian, and the group has represented Native American tribes whose water rights or other protections were under government assault. More than 50 elected officials attended CERA's gathering despite the libelous accusations.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:05 AM

Post 2 of 3
The Tip of a Dangerous Iceberg

The Riverton case blew the lid off a phenomenon that has been proceeding quietly across the United States for decades. It turns out that, despite the lack of press coverage, the EPA’s efforts to hand jurisdiction over multiple towns to Indian tribes were merely the proverbial tip of a gargantuan iceberg. Indeed, from coast to coast, multiple federal agencies have been working with tribal governments in a concerted attack on the U.S. Constitution, property rights, self-government, water rights, and more. Perhaps the biggest difference in the Wyoming case is that state officials — who across America are having their campaign coffers stuffed with Indian casino cash — actually spoke out, and the press reported on it.

However, it is not the first time that the phenomenon attracted at least some degree of public scrutiny. In fact, the scandalous federal exploitation of supposed Native American "interests" to justify power grabs surfaced very briefly over a decade ago, when EPA bureaucrats were convicted of fraud in mid-2000 in a case purporting to grant "Treatment as a State" status to three tribal governments in Wisconsin. In that instance, two EPA officials were busted for falsifying documents in a bizarre attempt to justify allowing the tribes to regulate water in and around their reservations, which would have had nightmarish implications for the overwhelming non-Indian majority in the area.

"Aside from the poor judgment displayed by some of the key participants in this case, another factor influencing developments in Region V is EPA's relationship with the tribes," explained Dr. Bonner Cohen, now a senior fellow with the National Center for Public Policy Research, after the EPA fraud and power grabs were exposed and prosecuted. "That relationship is characterized by an odd mixture of intimacy and mutual exploitation that has come back to haunt both parties."

That case, though, was hardly unique. Elaine Willman, who is of Cherokee Indian ancestry, is among a handful of respected experts who can speak credibly on a subject that is deliberately shrouded in obscurity and deception — federal Indian policy. Her husband is also of Native American ancestry and is even related to Sacajawea, the celebrated Indian who served on the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Willman served as the chair of the Citizens Equal Rights Alliance from 2001 to 2007 until accepting the position of director of community development and tribal affairs with the small Village of Hobart in Wisconsin. She still serves on CERA’s board and is working on a doctoral degree in federal Indian policy, one of her passions and an issue she says requires much more attention and some major reforms.

After traveling across the country to visit Indian reservations and conduct interviews, Willman's worst suspicions were confirmed. The proliferation and empowerment of federally funded tribal governments, working with the federal government itself, threatens the constitutionally protected rights of all Americans, including, ironically, the descendants of the original Native Americans. It threatens self-government, too, she says.

In 2005, Willman published a book on the subject entitled Going to Pieces: The Dismantling of the United States of America. It is packed with examples of abuses stemming from tribal governments in cahoots with state and federal policymakers. America is increasingly being governed by tribalism, she says, a system whereby federally funded tribal governments work with their federal paymasters to attack state sovereignty, private property, the unalienable rights of non-tribe members and Indians, and much more.

Early on in the book, which recounts her 6,000-mile voyage from her native Washington State to New York, she describes massive land grabs in rural Northern Idaho being facilitated by the EPA, the Department of the Interior, and other state and federal agencies. Among other concerns, she explains that tribal governments, with the connivance of state and federal officials getting big campaign contributions from tribal governments, are unilaterally expanding the borders of Indian reservations far beyond what U.S. law permitted. Tribal governments are working to exercise jurisdiction over property owners whose families have owned the land for a century, sometimes even longer. The Coeur d'Alene tribe, for example, with help from federal officials, is among the tribal governments trying to push out the boundaries of the areas they control, with everyday citizens and their lawfully owned properties in the crosshairs.

Among those who have been forced to deal with the problems are Roger Hardy and his wife, Toni, whose grandparents lawfully homesteaded their more than 500 acres of lakeshore land more than a century ago. With help from the EPA, and despite huge legal costs for the Hardys trying to fight it, the Coeur d'Alene tribal government was able to acquire control over a public "walking trail" through the property after a contaminated railroad track fell out of use. Tribe members reportedly regularly enter their private property, sometimes damaging it, sometimes shooting guns at anything that moves under the guise of "ancient hunting rights," and more. The tribe's actual reservation has been about 70,000 acres since the late 1800s. Tribal authorities, though, with connivance of federal and state officials, have been working hard to expand its boundaries to the former 350,000 acres. That puts Roger and Toni's property — along with many others' — at serious risk.

Aggressive actions by another tribal government in Idaho, the Nez Perce tribe, with several thousand enrolled members, prompted local authorities from across the region to band together in an effort to contain the tribal government’s claims of purported jurisdiction. There, tribal officials were trying to extort gargantuan amounts of money for “permits” from non-Native residents for simple actions such as building a school — on non-reservation land — all while trying to usurp water rights and more.

County and local governments there were providing virtually all taxpayer-funded services to everyone in the central Idaho area, including tribe members. Still, the tribal government was receiving more in federal grants alone than the local and district governments were collecting in total revenues, combined. The tribal government was also bringing in big bucks from an Indian casino and tax-exempt businesses, which have a major advantage over non-Indian businesses due to the taxation arrangements. The tribal government, like others across America, was pouring that money into buying up more land, hiring lobbyists, funding politicians, and employing swarms of attorneys to push its goals through litigation in the courts.

Some of the most alarming tales of joint tribal-federal abuse came from Thurston County, Nebraska, home to the Omaha and Winnebago reservations and numerous non-Indian farmers whose ancestors acquired the land lawfully, often by purchasing it from Indians. Over a decade ago, large swaths of the area, part of EPA "Region 7," were placed under the regulatory jurisdiction of tribal governments on everything from pesticides to environmental regulations. Non-Indian farmers were suddenly faced with a nightmarish situation of being governed by federal and Indian authorities with whom they held no sway.

Incredibly, tribal law enforcement — mostly from the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs — even began harassing and brutalizing some local farmers. In her book, Willman tells the story of the Knecht family, which has farmed the land for four generations. In 2004, Kim Knecht, the son, was on a tractor in his family's fields when he spotted three Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) tribal police cars speeding toward him. Apparently the Omaha tribal government had decided that part of the Knechts’ lawfully owned farm was actually its property. One of the cars rammed Kim’s tractor before a gaggle of tribal cops jumped out and dragged him off his vehicle, scraping his back in the process. The officers maced him, slammed him on the ground, and put him in handcuffs. Kim's frantic wife called 911 before running toward her husband in a panic. She was arrested, too. Kim’s father, Vernon, also ran out and demanded that the tribal officers get off his private property. After claiming that the land was on the “reservation,” they eventually did leave, taking Kim with them to a tribal jail and charging him with assaulting tribal law enforcement, ramming their vehicles, and "resisting arrest." Finally, after thousands of dollars squandered on legal fees, Kim was cleared of all the bogus charges, and a federal judge severely reprimanded the tribal cops. However, no charges were ever brought against the tribal officers for trespassing, assault, harassment, destruction of property, or any other crimes.

Incredibly, just weeks passed before Vernon suffered a similarly traumatic incident at the hands of the tribal cops. After reluctantly (considering what happened to his son) helping his Indian friend feed the tribe's buffalo, Vernon left his tractor on the reservation at the request of his friend, a member of the tribe. Tribal BIA police then went to tow it away. When Vernon found out, the 73-year-old went to investigate, and sure enough, the officers were hauling his machine away. He got out and explained the situation to the officers. They responded by immediately beating him on the head with clubs, throwing him to the ground, rubbing his face in the gravel, and handcuffing him. Pleading with the officers for his heart medication and covered in bruises, Vernon was eventually taken from the scene to the hospital by paramedics. It took months for his face to heal. Kim, who stayed in the truck at his dad’s request, took pictures of the beating, but considering his own legal problems with the tribal government, he could not do much. Vernon was eventually charged with "stealing hay" and “trespassing” on Indian land, though those trumped up charges were eventually dropped as well. "American citizens … don't have any rights here anymore," then-County Sheriff Charles Obermeyer is quoted as saying in Willman’s book.

Even more worrying at the time, Willman explains, were plans to cross-deputize tribal enforcers, giving them power to enforce state law in addition to tribal law, even against non-Indians.

In Washington State, meanwhile, Willman also found similarly troubling trends. To illustrate the lunacy of the EPA "Treatment as States" policies for Indian tribes under the Clean Air Act, for example, she used two maps. The first shows the state government's air-quality regions under EPA mandates. The second features the areas where "Indian air" would be controlled by tribal governments — essentially the entire state, once the "weighted comment" scheme giving them powers over 50 miles outside reservations is taken into account.

"Regulatory control of America's air and water directly impacts America's industries, private sector market places, farming, energy and natural resources," Willman explains. "TSTS [Treatment Similar to a State] is the stealth bomb that has been launched and is heading for the target. Highly urbanized areas such as Portland, Seattle, and the entire West Coast could soon become beholden to multiple approvals required by Indian tribes in order to open a business or conduct any activity within their jurisdictions.” Across America, wherever there are self-styled "sovereign" tribal governments, the threat is there, too.

The Department of Interior has also been plotting to hand over massive swaths of public lands to tribal government managers. Public spaces deemed to have “special geographic, historical, or cultural significance to self-governance tribes,” for example, could eventually be run by tribal authorities. Even "close proximity" could be enough to let tribal governments take over governance of dozens of national parks and "wildlife refuges" across America. Willman suggests access to the areas is being "systematically" restricted — potentially even to the point of denying access — to everyone except the Native American Indian population. In recent years, as just one example, tribal governments in South Dakota, with full federal connivance, have been seeking control over huge swaths of the Badlands National Park. Analysts also said that plot could set a "precedent" for other tribes across America to seize control over national parks. However, at least in this case, tribal and non-Indian residents in the area are resisting the giant land grab being cooked up by the tribal governments and the federal one.

In Montana, among the stops on the journey, Willman and her colleague, Kamie Christensen Biehl, found a wide range of problems brought about by joint federal-Indian government abuses. Since the book was written, the situation has only grown worse. As just one example, as this article is being written, non-tribal members across 11 western Montana counties are being threatened with potential ruin through the loss of water rights to the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes (CSKT). Especially under threat are the more than 20,000 non-Native Americans who lawfully own land and property in the Flathead Indian reservation, home to about 4,000 Indians who are openly seeking to reclaim all of the land that was sold off beginning in the early 1900s.

On July 8, a busload of non-Native locals from the region, along with a caravan of cars full of ranchers, descended on Helena to testify against the plot to hand over control over water to the tribal government and its federal “partners” as part of a new, perpetual “compact.” If approved, the tribal government would be effectively in full control over the property and destinies of tens of thousands of non-Native citizens by controlling their access to water — perhaps the single most essential resource.

Clarice Ryan, an activist with Concerned Citizens of Montana working to fend off the attack on water rights, told The New American that the land grabs are "happening nationwide, with the federal government using the reservations to gain control of land, water, air, and energy. I truly believe that what is happening right here on our Salish Kootenai Reservation could become the pilot program and poster child laying the groundwork for the policies and political strategies nationwide."

The above examples represent but a tiny fraction of the abuses perpetrated against citizens of all races by the federal government and its dependent so-called sovereign tribal governments. While a few court rulings have sought to rein in some of the wildest abuses — EPA just got unanimously smacked down in the liberal D.C. Court of Appeals for trying to override the government of Oklahoma in Indian country and essentially regulate dust — the lawlessness is still growing.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:16 AM

Post 3 of 3
How Did This Happen?

The hundreds of tribal governments and the federal government have developed a sort of symbiotic relationship benefiting both — at the expense of the rights of Americans and Indians alike. Of course, it is important to draw a distinction between tribal governments and Native Americans. Estimates suggest just one in five Indians is actually registered as part of a tribal government or lives on a reservation. While all Indians are and have been U.S. citizens for generations, only a handful actually willingly subject themselves to the rule of federally funded tribal governments.

There are more than 550 officially recognized tribal "nations" spread across about 30 states. Most of them have a Department of Interior-approved “constitution” under the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934, which establishes the tribe's governing system. Once recognized and approved, the tribal governments then become quasi-dependent "sovereigns," with huge amounts of federal tax dollars and supposed "sovereignty" delegated to them by the federal government. "It's all a horrible hoax," Willman told The New American in one of a series of extended interviews exploring federal Indian policy.

Of course, the reservation system has, by any objective measure, been a miserable failure. As The New American has documented in the past, statistics for life in Indian country paint a grim tale of alcoholism, violence, drug abuse, broken families, dependence, poverty, abuse, suicide, lack of education, and a general feeling of hopelessness. Many tribal leaders benefit from the system, of course, but for members, generally speaking at least, misery reigns across most of Indian country.

"This establishment thrives because of the perverted interpretation of sovereignty. The Indian establishment — I’m talking about tribal government and the Bureau of Indian Affairs — wield a lot of power in Washington," Faron Iron, a member of the Crow tribe who has served on the tribe’s executive committee but disagreed with the tribal government’s policies, is quoted as saying in Willman's book. "They purport to be Indian experts and they speak for the common Indian, but it isn't so. They protect the system itself, which benefits them. As far as people, they merely serve as statistics to qualify for funds or whatever else they need. The people are basically to be used, is what it is."

But how did the accelerating joint tribal-federal assaults on liberty, property, and self-government come about? Willman says one of the key tools is the exploitation of guilt. As documented in innumerable history books, the descendants of Europeans who arrived in America over hundreds of years were often brutal toward Native Americans, as was the federal government. While few living Americans today participated in historical atrocities against Indians, a feeling of collective guilt still pervades the culture. This is a crucial weapon in allowing the federal government and its Indian government "partners" to run roughshod over the rights of Americans with little protest or media coverage. "They have abused white guilt," Willman explains.

Another key tool is the deluge of cash facilitated by the feds. "You can time the explosion and the abuse of Indian policy to the emergence of federal casino monopolies in 1988," Willman explained. "As soon as that act passed, that money truly did start buying up the political process, and that is when the abuse really blew up, you can trace it. Before that, there had been a live-and-let-live atmosphere between communities. That was the tipping point — these gaming tribes started getting mega-wealthy. The money was intended to improve the lives of people on the reservations, but it has not done so. It's just money for the tribal leaders and political contributions. That financial leverage really ties in with the expanded symbiotic relationship."

After visiting nine reservations, Willman summarized the process that occurs: "A tribe gets a casino(s); a tribe buys political and legal power; surrounding counties, towns and citizens are bullied; a tribe buys or economically forces out landowners/businesses; elected officials get quiet, or get purchased; non-tribal lands and economies dwindle quickly; thousands of American citizens lose — sometimes everything; tribalism as a governing system" then eventually replaces self-government.

It is also important to understand how these reservations function economically — much more akin to central planning and socialism than to American notions of free markets. The tribal government largely controls jobs, the economy, the distribution of federal tax dollars, and more. "Centralizing and expanding the power of the federal government in various states over citizens, and spreading socialism — tribal governments — as a governing system is a marvelous way to domestically undermine the principles of our U.S. Constitution," Willman says.

Of course, much of the trend is fueled, as with most ongoing assaults on freedom, by Americans' own tax dollars and the shroud of secrecy that surrounds it all. Willman says, for example, the "total power" of federal Indian policy is based “entirely upon the secrecy and intentional absence of studies done, or audits completed.” Consider President Clinton's "executive order" in 2000 establishing an "Indian Office" in every single federal agency. Each of those agencies then created financial programs, many of which distribute taxpayer funds to tribal governments. Before that, most of the federal funding went through the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Now, nobody even seems to know how much federal largess is flowing to tribal governments. When CERA held a conference a few years ago in Washington, D.C., a keynote speaker was George Skibine, a high-ranking BIA official. When asked by a CERA board member whether BIA had ever audited how much annual funding goes to the more than 550 tribal governments, he reportedly responded: "We've been unable to do that." Apparently there was one attempt to calculate how many federal dollars from all agencies are distributed to the tribes, but it turned out to be impossible.

As far as the constitutional authority underpinning the developments, experts say it is shrouded in mystery as well. "For at least 29 states that host Indian tribes, this is death by a thousand slashes over a long period of time, to intentionally erode state jurisdiction, administrative or regulatory authority within its own boundaries. The Congressional environmental acts of the mid '70s became a marvelous tool," Willman said.

Obama Steps Up the War

As if the problems were not already dangerous enough, the current administration is stepping up the federal exploitation of Native Americans in its effort to "fundamentally transform" the United States. In June, for example, Obama and his wife visited the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Nation in North Dakota to tout his accomplishments and his administration’s "partnerships" with American Indian tribes. "My administration is determined to partner with tribes," Obama boasted at the summit. "It takes place every day on just about every issue that touches your lives."

Before the gathering, Obama published a June 5 op-ed in Indian Country Today boasting of his efforts and promising more to come. “As president, I’ve worked closely with tribal leaders, and I’ve benefited greatly from their knowledge and guidance,” he said. "That's why I created the White House Council on Native American Affairs — to make sure that kind of partnership is happening across the federal government."

The powerful council was created by an “executive order” last year. The purpose of the order, according to the document itself, was to "promote and sustain prosperous and resilient Native American tribal governments." While UN agreements on indigenous populations were not mentioned, the controversial decree incorporated more than a few elements of global schemes currently being used worldwide that will be addressed further down.

Tribal government leaders were happy about Obama and his efforts, too. “The best thing that’s happened to Indian Country has been President Obama being elected,” claimed Dave Archambault II, chairman of Standing Rock. Ironically, though, the reservation Obama visited is itself a testament to the utter devastation wrought by federal Indian policy. Despite a federally granted casino monopoly, almost half of the Indians there live in poverty. About 50 percent drop out of high school. An estimated 86 percent of the tribe’s members are unemployed. Alcoholism, obesity, sexual violence, crime, and suicide rates are off the charts. On other reservations, the numbers are even grimmer.

The Obama administration even hosts annual summits for tribal government leaders in Washington, D.C., to meet with top White House officials. Obama has also taken steps to increase "tribal sovereignty" at the expense of state officials by, for example, allowing tribal governments to bypass governors and apply directly for federal emergency and economic development "grants."

All across the Obama administration, departments are working with Indian governments on deeply controversial programs that have flown largely under the radar. The Justice Department, for example, recently established a permanent "office of tribal justice." Under an agreement reached amid a lawsuit, the Department of the Interior is now spending billions of dollars buying up land to put in “trust” for various Indian tribes. Obama is also in the process of relaxing the requirements to become a "tribe" and begin receiving federal handouts and vast new regulatory powers to assault property rights, state sovereignty, and the U.S. Constitution.

In recent years, the trends have accelerated at breathtaking speed. If U.S. policymakers do not take action to rein in the administration's ongoing exploitation of its dependent tribal governments in the war on freedom, many more Americans will soon find themselves in federal-tribal crosshairs — with disastrous consequences.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:27 AM

Tuesday, 29 July 2014 15:30
Obama's EPA: Weapon of Choice in UN-backed War on Freedom
Written by Alex Newman

The exploitation of Native Americans to seize more power and land is not just a domestic issue — either in origin or scope. In February 2013, The New American magazine ran an article headlined "Exploiting Indians to Seize Land," detailing elements of the planetary phenomenon. In 2006, after decades of negotiations, the dictator-dominated United Nations "Human Rights Council" adopted the so-called UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It was approved by the despot-controlled UN General Assembly the next year.

At first, just four national governments — Australia, Canada, the United States, and New Zealand — opposed the radical plot. All four eventually caved in. There was good reason to be skeptical, though. Article 26 of the document, for example, purports to mandate the recognition and return of indigenous peoples’ lands that are now lawfully owned by other citizens. "Indigenous peoples have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired," the document states, a position that several governments criticized when refusing to support the declaration. Considering the fact that Native Americans once "owned, occupied or otherwise used" virtually the entire American landmass, the radical implications of the agreement can hardly be emphasized strongly enough.

In Article 29, the document lays out a plot that bears remarkable similarities and parallels to the ongoing federal regulatory assaults under the guise of “Indian sovereignty” taking place across America. The article states that national governments “shall establish and implement” so-called environmental protection and conservation schemes on Indian lands — two of the key mechanisms exploited by opponents of private property, economic development, and national sovereignty to infringe on individual rights. How national regulations and supposed Indian “sovereignty” can coexist is never made clear. The EPA and other federal agencies, though, are working away “establishing and implementing” alleged “environmental” and “conservation” schemes in Indian country and beyond with the bought-and-paid-for collaboration of federally funded tribal governments.

Obama publicly announced that his administration was supporting the UN declaration at the end of 2010. Now, despite the fact that the U.S. Senate never ratified the agreement, Obama is apparently working to implement it — and doing so openly. “The United States intends to continue to work so that the laws and mechanisms it has put in place to recognize existing, and accommodate the acquisition of additional, land, territory, and natural resource rights under U.S. law function properly and to facilitate, as appropriate, access by indigenous peoples to the traditional lands, territories and natural resources in which they have an interest,” a State Department statement about the UN deal acknowledged.

According to the announcement, the Obama administration had already acquired more than 34,000 acres of land for Indians — a 225 percent increase from 2006.
The UN, though, wants still more, even making the Obama administration’s antics seem tame by comparison. In 2012, for example, the UN “Special Rapporteur on the Rights of Indigenous People,” James Anaya, claimed that Americans should return vast tracts of land to Native Americans — including the iconic Mount Rushmore in South Dakota. Such a move, he claimed, would help put the U.S. government closer into compliance with the so-called UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Americans may already be suffering, but a brief look at “indigenous” developments in Brazil paints a potentially far more horrifying future for the United States if the schemes are not reined in. As The New American reported in the February 2013 article, federal troops in Brazil wearing UN logos, acting under executive decrees from “former” communist terrorist President Dilma Rousseff, were caught evicting entire towns at gunpoint. “Where are we going to stay? Where are we going to live? What are we going to live off of? What are we going to eat going forward?” wondered a tearful girl outside one of the town’s two schools in a TV interview. “I’ve lived here all my 17 years and I’m not leaving.” Local property owner Paulo Gonçalves, whose land was expropriated during the evictions, blasted the schemes in a phone interview with The New American. “What’s happening here is a great injustice being perpetrated by Dilma’s government,” Gonçalves said. “They are throwing all of those poor families out on the street.... There are now more than 350 families living in just one school, with all of their belongings, they have no place to go, nothing.”

The atrocities against non-Indians were being perpetrated under the fraudulent guise of returning land to a small band of Indians. Many members of that tribe, though, openly admitted, as the Brazilian government did on multiple occasions, that the territory had never been theirs to begin with. Still, the scheme is all taking place as the Brazilian executive-branch regime unilaterally implements the UN agreement without so much as ratification by the Congress. Similar trends are unfolding in free nations worldwide.

The UN Agenda 21 “sustainable development” scheme, which has been covered extensively in these pages, also focuses on how native populations will be exploited for the war on property rights, national sovereignty, free markets, and more. Chapter 26 of the massive document is entitled “Recognizing and Strengthening the Role of Indigenous People and Their Communities.” In the section, the UN states: “In view of the interrelationship between the natural environment and its sustainable development and the cultural, social, economic and physical well-being of indigenous people, national and international efforts to implement environmentally sound and sustainable development should recognize, accommodate, promote and strengthen the role of indigenous people and their communities.”

Like the UN agreement on indigenous peoples, Agenda 21 has never been ratified by the U.S. Senate as required by the U.S. Constitution, yet it is still being implemented across the country. Indeed, reading through the relevant section of Agenda 21 and comparing it to U.S. policy development vis-à-vis Indians, it is clear that the UN plot has had a major impact on federal policy. Even Bureau of Land Management “Resource Management Plans” in areas with no Indians at all are now bringing in the Bureau of Indian Affairs as a “partner.” Agenda 21’s Chapter 26 explains in its “objectives” section that, in “full partnership with indigenous people and their communities,” governments and intergovernmental organizations such as the UN should establish “arrangements to strengthen the active participation of indigenous people and their communities in the national formulation of policies, laws and programmes relating to resource management.” It also calls for the involvement of “indigenous people and their communities at the national and local levels in resource management and conservation strategies.” There are countless similar examples.

Outside of America, totalitarian governments are also seizing on the UN “indigenous” schemes to advance what they refer to as a “New World Order.” At a June G-77 plus China summit in Bolivia, more than 130 national governments — including many of the most barbaric communist and Islamist regimes on the planet — signed a declaration entitled “Toward a New World Order to Live Well.” The radical document, in addition to calling for a centrally planned global government and massive wealth redistribution, placed a large emphasis on the role of tribal governments in bringing about their nightmarish vision. “We stress the importance of indigenous peoples in the achievement of sustainable development,” the declaration said, with “sustainable development” being the unifying theme behind their so-called New World Order. The word “indigenous” appears more than 25 times in the document.

At the UN, of course, a wide range of other pretexts is also being used to advance an agenda that is deeply and openly hostile to property rights — with Agenda 21 and “sustainable development” among the key mechanisms. The ultimate goals, however, regardless of what pretext is used, have already been made perfectly clear by the UN itself. In its Habitat I Conference Report, for example, the UN claimed: “[Land] cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes.... Public control of land use is therefore indispensable.”

The Broader War on America, Starring EPA

Beyond Riverton and Wyoming (see our related article "Exploiting Indians"), the EPA scheme is just a small part of the growing UN-linked assaults being witnessed across the United States and the world. However, it illustrates some key principles. "It's interesting that it was the EPA which imposed this taking," explained Tom DeWeese, chief of the pro-property rights and pro-national sovereignty American Policy Center (APC). "Throughout U.S. history dealings with the Indian tribes has been mostly through the Department of Interior. With the EPA's involvement, Americans need to understand the true revolution that is changing our country under the excuse of environmental protection and in the name of globalism."

The EPA, continued DeWeese in comments to The New American, "has become Obama’s sledgehammer to enforce most of his changes in America." Among other targets, he said, the environmental agency “is being used to destroy industry, enforce controls over energy and water, stop development, and destroy the existence of private property rights in America.” Now, "it is being used to actually eliminate the very fact of national or state sovereignty."

Speaking of the UN Indians agreement signed by Obama and other national governments, DeWeese said that it was important to understand the broader context and mindset behind the schemes. To truly grasp what the treaty is designed to do, the APC chief offered a variety of globalist quotes. The UN's own "Commission on Global Governance” made that clear as well: "The concept of national sovereignty has been immutable, indeed a sacred principle of international relations," it stated. "It is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to the new imperatives of global environmental cooperation."

"The bottom line is this: the drive to destroy the sovereignty of the United States and that of its individual states is one of the most radical concepts in human history," DeWeese concluded. "Always before, the only way to achieve global governance was through violence and conquest, usually by a power-mad dictator. But today, in order to make it happen, the UN's plan is for a nation to voluntarily concede. No other president in U.S. history would ever have dared take such radical action. Barack Obama is dedicated to the plan of global governance and is unafraid of making these radical moves. He has no loyalty to the United States. He has no notion of sovereignty or private property. The EPA is his weapon of choice, because it's 'globally' and 'environmentally' correct."

A Pattern of Environmental “Protection” Abuse

Indeed, even a brief review of the EPA’s activities — especially recently — would make that conclusion hard to escape. For example, around the same time the Wyoming reservation decision was announced by the EPA, itself created by an executive order, the agency also announced drastic new regulations supposedly aimed at reducing “pollution” from power plants in the state, drawing massive outrage.

This year, the agency continues to spew gargantuan amounts of economy- and liberty-crushing "regulations," including new schemes that would purport to put virtually every body of water under federal control — even if it has been dry for centuries. That plot has been described by lawmakers and analysts as the largest land grab in history.

Separately, the EPA is also under fire for radical new decrees that will shut down hundreds of power plants across America under the guise of fighting "global warming" and "carbon pollution" — also known as CO2, or human breath, and referred to by scientists as the "gas of life." When Obama failed to get his cap-and-trade scheme through Congress, he simply had his EPA foist it on America by decree.

In July, the EPA announced a "regulation" that will allow it to plunder Americans’ bank accounts at will, without so much as a court order. If it goes forward, the EPA would even be able to garnish the paychecks of anyone it accuses of violating its mountains of regulations without any semblance of due process of law.

Nationwide, meanwhile, the out-of-control agency is facing increasing scrutiny after its most highly paid bureaucrat and chief "global warming" propagandist was sentenced to prison for fraud. Its top bosses were also facing multiple accusations of criminal activity. More recently, a self-styled "Homeland Security" unit at the EPA, run from the White House, was exposed by the agency’s Office of the Inspector General trying to cover up scandals and prevent investigations. The scandals seem to never end, all while a complicit Congress continues showering taxpayer funds on the rogue agency.

Other tentacles of the Obama administration are engaged in shenanigans that fit nicely with the broader agenda, too. In November 2013, for example, Interior Secretary Sally Jewell brazenly threatened that Obama would bypass Congress and start seizing even more land under the guise of creating “national monuments.” “The president will not hesitate,” she told the Los Angeles Times last November. "I can tell you that there are places that are ripe for setting aside, with a tremendous groundswell of public support." Of course, the U.S. government already claims ownership over some 650 million acres of land — about a third of America's total landmass. What remains in private hands may not be far behind at this rate.

At the same time, the Obama administration has been attacking national sovereignty and promoting globalism more than any other administration in history. On everything from going to war based on UN resolutions and boosting the self-styled "International Criminal Court" to imposing dangerous UN agreements without ratification and seeking massive budget increases for the UN's "peacekeeping" military forces, Obama has gone all out in supporting the global outfit.

Fixing the problems

Author and federal Indian policy expert Elaine Willman, calling the joint tribal-federal government problems facing America “very serious,” has some suggestions for reining in the disaster. “The expansion of federal agency ‘footprints’ escalating federal jurisdictional, administrative and regulatory authority over state lands urgently needs to awaken the state governors and state legislatures, who seem to be the ‘sleeping giants’ these days,” she told The New American. However, "none of this horrible federal hoax can stand the stark sunshine of the U.S. Constitution."

Unfortunately, she says, human nature is such that until Americans are personally impacted by these issues, they will likely remain uninformed and uninterested. To stop the assault will require major educational efforts.

When it comes to tribal governments and reservations, she suggests finding a process that would transition the tribes into a sort of non-profit organization that could govern itself, with title for trust lands going to the corporation having tribe members as shareholders. The Amish communities across America, she says, offer an excellent example of how social and cultural groups can keep their traditions and lifestyles alive — without federal subsidies or special race-based treatment, and without infringing on the rights of other Americans.

Of course, the scope of the broader problems is enormous — almost too vast to comprehend. However, Congress could shut it all down easily by simply disbanding the EPA, defunding Obama’s power grabs, withdrawing from the UN, and undoing the disaster that federal Indian policy has become. Without serious action to rein in the feds, all Americans, including Natives, will end up suffering — along with the rest of humanity.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on.
grin
With the Newspaper title, date and headline given it is obviously no secret and can be Googled easily. I should think you would not be THAT stupid, but you have proven me wrong again that you ARE that stupid.

I have notified you more than once that the “re” in the title to the post made links to the post one replies to. Your quote in full of every post is as childish as you are.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on.
grin
With the Newspaper title, date and headline given it is obviously no secret and can be Googled easily. I should think you would not be THAT stupid, but you have proven me wrong again that you ARE that stupid.

I have notified you more than once that the “re” in the title to the post made links to the post one replies to. Your quote in full of every post is as childish as you are.

If my posts are as childish as you say they are, why are your replies to my comments to you, the ones that are so replete with preadolescent invectives? whistle

And... for someone who imagines himself as astute, your habit of failing to provide citations, certainly flies in the face of all academic standards. Perhaps you're fully aware of that and have a reason for not doing so. Hmm.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on. grin
OMG. ROFLMAO. That is what you expect of me! Do your own research you say. What a double talker you are.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, I CAN all right. I simply refuse to indulge you in that which you should be responsible for doing yourself. It's that simple. Now take some responsibility, Junior.
When it comes to the Indian situation, I have never seen anyone talk out of both sides of their mouth as much as you. I don't know what you think you are tying to prove but it isn't working.
Unbelievable.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 08:45 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
So, it would appear that you've simply given up on providing citations or working links to the many propaganda pieces that you post.

OK, we'll just take your word for everything from now on. grin
OMG. ROFLMAO. That is what you expect of me! Do your own research you say. What a double talker you are.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Oh, I CAN all right. I simply refuse to indulge you in that which you should be responsible for doing yourself. It's that simple. Now take some responsibility, Junior.
When it comes to the Indian situation, I have never seen anyone talk out of both sides of their mouth as much as you. I don't know what you think you are tying to prove but it isn't working.
Unbelievable.

Ha! I just knew that you'd step right in it, on this one! You see, as usual, you're missing a critical key distinction between the comment that I was referring to and the one that Rich just made (as is evidenced by you having edited the dialogue). In keeping with my position that you should be held responsible for your OWN BS, I'll let you figure it out for yourself (deservedly).

In the meantime, I'll just watch on the sidelines and be amused by your failed attempts to look like you know what your doing.

Always a joy watching you trip over yourself! grin
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Ha! I just knew that you'd step right in it, on this one! You see, as usual, you're missing a critical key distinction between the comment that I was referring to and the one that Rich just made. In keeping with my position that you should be responsible for your OWN BS,
And you should be responsible for your own BS too. You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
you're missing a critical key distinction between the comment that I was referring to and the one that Rich just made.
The only critical distinction is in your mind which no one can read.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
In the meantime, I'll just watch on the sidelines and be amused by your failed attempts to look like you know what your doing.
You are easily amused.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
you're missing a critical key distinction between the comment that I was referring to and the one that Rich just made.
The only critical distinction is in your mind which no one can read [I can't comprehend].

Then look it up and figure it out.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Ha! I just knew that you'd step right in it, on this one! You see, as usual, you're missing a critical key distinction between the comment that I was referring to and the one that Rich just made. In keeping with my position that you should be responsible for your OWN BS,
And you should be responsible for your own BS too. You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.

The difference is, that by your own free admission, you didn't even bother to look it up.

You made a BS comment (no citations), I called you on it by letting you know that I had the actual facts in front of me, which completely disproved your statement, and somehow I'M supposed responsible to post the proof ? ? ?

You're a seriously confused young man. It's YOUR responsibility to research your "facts" before you make definitive declarations. It's NOT the responsibility of others to prove that YOU are wrong.

You're lazy and arrogant, and most importantly, you're wrong on about half of the things you claim to be facts. I'm not about to reward your laziness, by doing that which YOU should be doing, yourself.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
In the meantime, I'll just watch on the sidelines and be amused by your failed attempts to look like you know what your doing.
You are easily amused.

Slapstick usually IS amusing. whistle
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Ha! I just knew that you'd step right in it, on this one! You see, as usual, you're missing a critical key distinction between the comment that I was referring to and the one that Rich just made. In keeping with my position that you should be responsible for your OWN BS,
And you should be responsible for your own BS too. You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.

And yet, by your own free admission, you didn't even bother to look up.
I just looked it up and found nothing as I suspected.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#newwi...es&safe=off
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
You're a seriously confused young man. It's YOUR responsibility to research your "facts" before you make definitive declarations. It's NOT the responsibility of others to prove that YOU are wrong.
I just proved you wrong.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:33 AM


Try the word "reparations", Einstein. crazy

If you can't find examples of past reparations, then you're an abject moron, plain and simple.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
You're lazy and arrogant,
You are the most arrogant person on FL1 for sure.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:35 AM


But NOT in spite of my ignorance.

And that makes ALL the difference in the world.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Try the word "reparations", Einstein. crazy

If you can't find examples of past reparations, then you're an abject moron, plain and simple.
I did?

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#newwi...es&safe=off

countries doing reparations to natives
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Try the word "reparations", Einstein. crazy

If you can't find examples of past reparations, then you're an abject moron, plain and simple.
Well I don't time to look up your previous post but you implied current reparations. I so mad at you I am shaking.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:38 AM


You ARE an idiot.

You searched for "countries doing reparations to natives", NOT "reparations".

What is wrong with you?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

You ARE an idiot.

You search "countries doing reparations to natives", NOT "reparations".

What is wrong with you?
Then explain what the heck you mean you idiot.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Try the word "reparations", Einstein. crazy

If you can't find examples of past reparations, then you're an abject moron, plain and simple.
Well I don't time to look up your previous post but you implied current reparations. I so mad at you I am shaking.

Too bad, deal with it. It's of your own design.

Not only did I NOT imply such a thing (that's your confabulation), but you NEVER have time to be responsible enough to do some actual fact-checking. You simply dump that responsibility onto others and then blame them for your own confusion.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo

You ARE an idiot.

You searched for "countries doing reparations to natives", NOT "reparations".

What is wrong with you?
Then explain what the heck you mean you idiot.

Oh, I'm the idiot? That's rich! grin grin grin

Search... the... word... "r e p a r a t i o n s".

Got it?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.

Talk about BS!

That is most categorically NOT what I said.

You just Looove swapping around the words that people use, for the ones that you obviously WISH they would have.

What a Nutjob.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

You ARE an idiot.

You searched for "countries doing reparations to natives", NOT "reparations".

What is wrong with you?
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#newwindow=1&q=reparations&safe=off

"reparations" all by itself. No different wacko.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.
Talk about BS!

That is most categorically NOT what I said.
That is exactly what you said. You made a point of saying you were not going to share the info and I should go find it myself. You are a total - well I won't say- or I will get kicked off of here.
Posted by: newsman38

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:30 PM

2nd Circuit Court of Appeals sides with Cayugas

The U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals has affirmed a lower federal court ruling, preventing Seneca County from foreclosing on tax-delinquent Cayuga Indian Nation properties.

In a decision issued today, the Court of Appeals sided with Judge Charles Siragusa’s 2012 ruling barring Seneca County from foreclosing on five Cayuga Nation properties, a process the county initiated in 2010.

It is as yet unclear if the county will appeal the case to the Supreme Court.

The Cayugas owe Seneca County more than $1 in unpaid property taxes.

Posted: Thursday, July 31, 2014 2:45 pm | Updated: 2:49 pm, Thu Jul 31, 2014.
Finger Lakes Times
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.
Talk about BS!

That is most categorically NOT what I said.

You just Looove swapping around the words that people use, for the ones that you obviously WISH they would have.

What a Nutjob.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
we can begin by providing meaningful reparations.

And don't say that it can't be done. Several countries have or are in the process of doing that very thing, for formerly subjugated peoples around the world.
Originally Posted By: bluezone
name the countries and the 'subjugated' peoples
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I doubt he will tell you. He will tell you like he tells me. Do your own research. What a joke he is.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Wise words, she SHOULD take the same responsibility as everyone else.
It took me fewer than two minutes to come up with a list of twenty or so, that are displayed on the screen in front of me.
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I rest my case.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.
Talk about BS!

That is most categorically NOT what I said.

You just Looove swapping around the words that people use, for the ones that you obviously WISH they would have.

What a Nutjob.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
we can begin by providing meaningful reparations.

And don't say that it can't be done. Several countries have or are in the process of doing that very thing, for formerly subjugated peoples around the world.
Originally Posted By: bluezone
name the countries and the 'subjugated' peoples
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I doubt he will tell you. He will tell you like he tells me. Do your own research. What a joke he is.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Wise words, she SHOULD take the same responsibility as everyone else.
It took me fewer than two minutes to come up with a list of twenty or so, that are displayed on the screen in front of me.
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I rest my case.

Are you high ? ? ? As you can quite clearly see, I NEVER said "doing reparations to the natives". That's some hallucination on your part.

You're a bald-faced liar and you try to weasel your way out of those liars after you've been exposed, by suggesting that I imply that, which I never say.

Grow up, Man-Child. You're embarrassing yourself... AGAIN.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives but you refused to tell who they were. THAT IS TOTAL BS.
Talk about BS!

That is most categorically NOT what I said.
That is exactly what you said. You made a point of saying you were not going to share the info and I should go find it myself. You are a total - well I won't say- or I will get kicked off of here.

WTH does that have to do with you falsely claiming that I said "doing reparations to the natives" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). You are absolutely certifiable, my friend. You need help, and I'm done playing in YOUR asylum. crazy crazy crazy

Toodles!
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Still More Tribal News - 07/31/14 09:28 PM

Lol! It reminds me of Joe McCarthy..."I have the list right here!".
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/01/14 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Lol! It reminds me of Joe McCarthy..."I have the list right here!".
That is a good comparison. In the end nobody believed Joe. And he died looking like a fool. That was before we had forum fools. grin
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/01/14 11:26 AM


A most... "interesting" conclusion, since I'm not the one making false statements such as this:

Originally Posted By: kyle585
You said there were 20 countries right on your screen doing reparations to the natives...

whistle whistle whistle
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/02/14 01:23 AM

Originally Posted By: newsman38
2nd Circuit Court of Appeals sides with Cayugas

The U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals has affirmed a lower federal court ruling, preventing Seneca County from foreclosing on tax-delinquent Cayuga Indian Nation properties.

In a decision issued today, the Court of Appeals sided with Judge Charles Siragusa’s 2012 ruling barring Seneca County from foreclosing on five Cayuga Nation properties, a process the county initiated in 2010.

It is as yet unclear if the county will appeal the case to the Supreme Court.

The Cayugas owe Seneca County more than $1 in unpaid property taxes.

Posted: Thursday, July 31, 2014 2:45 pm | Updated: 2:49 pm, Thu Jul 31, 2014.
Finger Lakes Times
I expected them to rule this way because the Second Circuit ruled this way on the Oneida foreclosure. But upon appeal regarding the Oneida foreclosure, SCOTUS snatched it up. It was at that point Halbritter changed law firms and dropped his sovereign immunity defense to prevent SCOTUS from ruling on it.

SCOTUS snatched it to rule on sovereign immunity. I can’t see them grabbing it that quickly unless they wished to modify it. The only way to get a ruling on that is for the counties to appeal.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/10/14 01:06 PM

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20140810/NEWS05/140819985
Massena businessman proposes casino for former GM site

One Massena businessman said he thinks part of the solution to St. Lawrence County’s economic problems could be the addition of a second casino, this one on the site of the former GM plan in Massena....

[Note: that would void the compact with the Mohawk and they would no longer be required to pay the State anything. I guess approval will depend on how much he is willing to bribe the Governor.]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/13/14 09:13 PM

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com:81/2014/07/11/got-tribal-id-north-dakota-natives-may-not-be-able-use-theirs-vote-155776

Got Tribal ID? North Dakota Natives May Not Be Able to Use Theirs to Vote
Stephanie Woodard
7/11/14

In a news conference on Thursday, July 10, North Dakota Secretary of State Al Jaeger defended his strict reading of North Dakota voting law. The American Civil Liberties Union and the Freedom Resource Center, representing those with disabilities, had called on Jaeger to rethink his interpretation, which allows voters to use a small number of forms of identification. The rights groups say this has unfairly burdened tribal and disabled voters.

Heather Smith, the ACLU’s North and South Dakota director, said Jaeger’s interpretation had created the “strictest voter ID law in the nation.” She claimed it violates the Voting Rights Act and flies in the face of federal-court decisions striking down such laws.

Tribal ID is on the list of acceptable credentials. But there’s a catch: It must display the voter’s home address. The Spirit Lake Tribe, Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate, and Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa—making up nearly one-third of North Dakota’s Native population of about 36,500—do not include this information on their IDs.

In an interview with ICTMN, Jaeger said the Turtle Mountain council has resolved to re-credential their population with ID that includes a home address. Jaeger said he would reach out to Spirit Lake to do the same. Skarin objected, saying it’s not clear that the tribes have the money or infrastructure to make these changes. Jaeger confirmed that no funding is available from the state for new tribal IDs.

[Note: then the tribes better put this information on their ID’s to stop them from voting multiple times. And why should the State fund tribal ID’s? ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/13/14 09:16 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-news/20140726/bia-extends-comment-period-on-tribal-rules
BIA extends comment period on tribal rules
07/26/14

The U.S. Interior Department has extended the period for people to comment on proposed changes to rules for granting federal recognition to American Indian tribes, citing significant public interest in the matter.

Kevin Washburn, an assistant secretary with the department’s Bureau of Indian Affairs, announced Friday the comment period has been extended by 60 days.

The existing regulations overseeing the federal recognition of tribes were originally adopted in 1978. They’ve been updated once in 20 years.

“We have received several requests for an extension of the comment period and additional hearings,” said Nedra Darling, an agency spokesman, adding that the requests came from throughout the country.

Connecticut Attorney General George Jepsen was among those seeking an extension. Despite changes made to the proposed rules, Jepsen’s office claims they’ll still have “serious consequences for Connecticut,” making it easier for groups petitioning for federal recognition to gain the acknowledgement.

The BIA is also adding more consultations with tribes and public meetings. But those will be held by conference calls in August and September.

Connecticut Gov. Dannel P. Malloy sent a letter this week to the secretary of the Department of Interior, expressing his disappointment that a public hearing wasn’t being held in the state.

“Indeed, Connecticut may be the most profoundly affected of any state in the country,” said Malloy, adding that the state would not be sending official representatives to hearings held outside Connecticut. Both a public meeting and a tribal consultation are scheduled for July 29 in Mashpee, Massachusetts.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/13/14 09:19 PM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-news/20140813/madison-county-sharing-settlement-with-schools
Oneida Daily Dispatch
08/13/14
Madison County sharing settlement with schools

Madison County will turn more than $800,000 its $11 million settlement with the Oneida Indian Nation to school districts within its boundaries to make up for missing tax revenue.

At Tuesday’s Board of Supervisors meeting, county officials signed off on a resolution that will distribute $805,311 to the Canastota, Madison, Morrisville-Eaton, Oneida, Stockbridge Valley and Vernon-Verona-Sherrill school districts in lieu of school taxes that would have been levied on any Nation-owned properties.

The settlement - between the Nation, the state and Madison and Oneida counties - nullified any pending lawsuits between the parties and, in exchange for an initial installment and annual payments, all Nation-owned land will be exempt from tax collection.

Prior to the settlement, school district tax levies within Madison County were being paid by the county, County Attorney John Campanie said; school tax income not collected on Nation-owned properties that were considered permanently uncollectible was subsidized by the county. That provision was made by the county with the caveat that, should the county be successful in arbitrating the Nation’s responsibility to pay taxes, that the county receive any back payments.

The Oneida Indian Nation was giving donations to several of these school districts before the settlement agreement came in–because of the agreement with the state, many of these previous agreements with individual school districts and municipalities were made null and void.

The county’s action Tuesday to mitigate school districts’ tax losses was voluntary and not compelled by the settlement with the Nation and state, Campanie noted. Those pay-outs however, will be a one-time deal. Without committing to payments in future years, the board may consider making allocations using ongoing gaming revenues, Tuesday’s resolution said. County Administrator Mark Scimone said school district officials are being encouraged to seek out assistance at the state level.

[Note: School taxes, which are often twice as high as county taxes, were left out of the settlement because the schools were not included in the settlement between the counties, state and OIN to eliminate all taxing of the OIN. Now Madison County (which eliminated the school taxes) offers 800k in a one time deal to six school districts and tells them to ask the State in the future. If the State agrees, we will ALL be making up the difference. Well, you will if you live in New York. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/13/14 09:22 PM

http://romesentinel.com/letters/land-trust-accord-hurts-taxpayers/QBqngD!9m2tuPQ36js5Q597hR0HOA/
Rome Sentinel
August 13, 2014

Perplexed about the Indian land into trust issues and how it affects non-Indians? It can be simplified. When you purchase Savon gas, taxes that have been levied to repair roads are lost. The taxpayer picks up the slack even for the much-used routes to the Indian Casino. The taxpayer has also had to stand the expense over the many years for police protection for the disturbances happening everyday there.

Businesses like restaurants, conference centers, spas, bars, golf courses sports venues, retail stores, RV parks, and hotels, find it difficult to compete with non-tax paying entities. They cannot hire as many people as we lose as many jobs as Turning Stone says they provide. When you gamble at a non-Indian Casino like Vernon the taxes they pay supports education. Fewer taxes means teachers are laid off and children are denied the best education needed in this global world.

Our taxes give us the protection, opportunity, clean water, clean air and much more which is the benefit of living in this country and the reason why people are pounding the doors to get in. We do not deny these benefits to Indians. But the worse is that the millions that the Oneidas under Ray Halbritter possess are now used to fund political action committees to sway elections. We don’t know how many of our officials are receive Indian monetary support. There is no end to the ill effects of putting land bought by the Indians into trust. We need more protest.

— Lucretia Buccolo,

[Note: NY needs to replace their federal reps.]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/13/14 09:23 PM

http://auburnpub.com/news/opinion/editor...92c79b85b6.html
Our view: Congress needs to act on tribal lawsuit immunity
August 03, 2014 6:15 am

The U.S. Supreme Court decided in 2005, in a case involving the city of Sherill vs. the Oneida Indian Nation, the Indian tribes were not exempt from paying property taxes on lands they purchase on the open market.

From the day that ruling came out, Cayuga and Seneca county officials have rightfully stated that there's no valid reason under law for the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York to refuse to pay taxes on their holdings in Union Springs and Seneca Falls.

But a new legal problem eventually surfaced when municipalities made an effort to foreclose upon Indian-owned properties for unpaid taxes. Federal law provides an immunity to tribes against lawsuits, and that includes foreclosure proceedings.

Seneca County officials in recent years have pushed forward with an effort to foreclose on Cayuga Nation land, but they've now lost in both the U.S. District Court and the federal Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/13/14 09:26 PM

Appeals court ends casino plans: Ruling finds acres owned by Big Lagoon Rancheria not considered 'Indian lands'
Will Houston/The Times-Standard

01/23/2014

The Big Lagoon Rancheria will not be building its Big Lagoon Casino and hotel as planned after the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals found that acres owned by the rancheria were not considered “Indian lands,” according to the Tuesday court decision.

”Specifically, the tribe must have jurisdiction over the Indian lands upon which the gaming activity is to be conducted,” the report stated. “The panel held that the parcel at issue was not Indian lands, which include lands held in trust for a tribe ... .”

The report stated that the 11-acre parcel of land set to house the new casino was purchased by the Bureau of Indian Affairs “in trust” for Big Lagoon in 1994.

According to the three-judge panel, the bureau only had the authority to purchase lands in trust for tribes who were placed under federal jurisdiction before 1934.

”Because Big Lagoon was not such a tribe, the BIA lacked authority to purchase the parcel in trust for Big Lagoon,” the report read.

The report said the decision was based off the 2009 Supreme Court case decision of Carcieri v. Salazar.

The 17-member Big Lagoon Rancheria --consisting of both Yurok and Tolowa tribe members -- has been in contention with the state over authorization of the casino since 2007.

In 2010, the district court ruled that the state violated the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act by “failing to negotiate in good faith,” but that the 11-acre parcel was a “stand-alone issue.”

The state appealed the 2010 decision in 2012, and the ruling was reversed on Tuesday.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/19/14 03:30 PM

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20140819/NEWS05/140818792
St. Lawrence County legislators sign on to Mohawk land claims settlement
By MARTHA ELLEN
TIMES STAFF WRITER
AUGUST 19, 2014

St. Lawrence County lawmakers agreed to allow their chairman to sign a Mohawk land claims settlement agreement even though some legislators were cautious about their endorsement.

The St. Regis Mohawk Tribe signed a memorandum of understanding May 28 with the state and the county to settle land claims that have been in dispute for more than 30 years.

“They need land. They win. We need money. We win,” county Administrator Karen M. St. Hilaire said Monday. “The state needs to get this off their back.” [Note, the county Administrator has apparently been “influenced”. The State already won the land claim excepting a few island in dispute as to whether Canada or the US owned them at the time of the transactions when the tribe SOLD the land which they stole.]
The agreement includes a number of provisions, including the potential purchase by members of the St. Regis Tribe of about 3,440 acres in the town of Brasher and about 1,360 acres in the town of Massena.

In return, the agreement includes $1,875,000 for the county in casino gaming compact payments that have been placed in escrow, plus $937,000 each for the towns of Brasher and Massena; annual compact payments estimated at $1.45 million for the county and $725,000 each for Brasher and Massena; a signing bonus of $3.5 million for the county from the state and the tribe; an additional $4 million of unrestricted funds annually for the county, with some of that money going to Massena and Brasher and to St. Lawrence Central and Massena Central school districts; a lease agreement between Massena and New York Power Authority that will help pay for a hangar at the airport; NYPA annual payments for 35 years to the tribe of $2 million; nine megawatts of low-cost power through NYPA for the reservation; and free tuition for Akwesasne Mohawks who qualify for any SUNY school.

[Note: tribal members already get free tuition and any payments make by the “State” are made by the taxpayers. ]

In addition, property sales in the affected areas of Massena and Brasher will occur only if the property owner is willing to sell. The assessed value of the property at the time of sale will determine payments made by the state to hold taxing jurisdictions harmless.

[Note: how harmless is it when everyone else pays more so you don’t have to?]

“I think this is one of the most monumental accomplishments this body has ever undertaken,” Legislator Jason A. Clark, D-Norfolk, said. “We’re on the verge of having that solved.” [Note: just what does he think got solved?]

Massena and Brasher leaders also have complained about their lack of involvement in the settlement and their financial recompense, he said. [Note: Gosh, the State didn’t involved the municipalities or counties directly affected in the settlement? It appears Cuomo’s bullying tactics haven’t changed.]

After hearing from Legislative Chairman Jonathan S. Putney, D-Waddington, that he is trying to arrange informational meetings in Massena and Brasher, Legislator Scott M. Sutherland, R-Pierrepont, asked why legislators should not wait for public input before authorizing an agreement.
[Note: What? Public input? You mean actually ask the people you represent how they want you to vote? ]
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/21/14 07:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

The St. Regis Mohawk Tribe signed a memorandum of understanding May 28 with the state and the county to settle land claims that have been in dispute for more than 30 years.


how can the 'tribe' make a deal with the state?
thought the 'tribes' position was they can only can make a deal with the federal government
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/21/14 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

The St. Regis Mohawk Tribe signed a memorandum of understanding May 28 with the state and the county to settle land claims that have been in dispute for more than 30 years.


how can the 'tribe' make a deal with the state?
thought the 'tribes' position was they can only can make a deal with the federal government
The same way the Oneida made a deal with the State. The State gives them what they want and they take it. Without the feds involved in either case, neither agreement is enforceable if the tribe decided not to comply. Your Governor is an egotistical idiot.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/22/14 09:30 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140822/NEWS/140829868
Oneidas deal with Verona fire department ends
• For about 20 years, the Oneida Indian Nation has given the Verona Volunteer Fire Department a payment for its coverage of the Turning Stone Resort Casino property.

Most recently, the amount was $100,000 – but it won't be coming anymore.

Nation wrote in a June letter to fire district officials. “The settlement agreement makes clear that these payments are in full satisfaction of ‘tax revenues of any kind.’ The Nation’s payments cover all local tax revenue, including town of Verona fire district taxes.”

In other words, it is up to the county to disburse the funds to departments that once received payments from the Nation as it sees fit.

Under the agreement, which was signed in spring 2013 and went into effect about a year later, the Nation gives 25 percent of slot machine revenue to the state, which then gives 25 percent of its share to Oneida County.

Based on quarterly payments already received, the amount Oneida County is set to get should be around $12.5 million a year.

But under the agreement, the county is not allowed to give any of the money to entities that are continuing to have litigation against the Nation. The Town of Verona falls into this category, but the fire district does not. The district’s budget is about $335,000 a year, including the Nation’s contribution.

Under federal law, the Verona Volunteer Fire Department is required to cover the Nation’s lands. As Turning Stone grew in size and added its Tower Hotel, the department acquired an aerial ladder truck that cost more than $400,000, said county Legislator Michael Clancy, who also is a member of the fire department.
[Note: which added cost would not have been needed had the tribe had to comply with zoning laws.]

Firefighters also did special training to better cover the buildings, and incidents on Nation land account for about 20 percent of the department’s calls, he said.
[Note: which special training would not have been needed had the tribe had to comply with zoning laws. Also note, one out of every five calls go to tribal property. ]

Verona Fire Chief Tim Dodge could not be reached for comment.

County Executive Anthony Picente said he wants to ensure that the fire department’s budget is made whole. [Note: Picente has been a tribal lackey from day one. ]

“As the first responders for that enterprise, I will not jeopardize their budget,” Picente said. “Most important is the public safety of the people that visit Turning Stone.”

His plan has to pass the 23-member county Board of Legislators, and appears to have the support of the leaders of both parties, though they have some reservations.



http://romesentinel.com/county/county-to-receive-casino-money-for-first-time/QBqnhn!KBO@KZvfjeiEaSXJd7Ll4g/
County to receive casino money for first time
Published Aug 16, 2014 at 4:00pm

The county is receiving casino money for the first time — upwards of $15 million annually initially — and has recorded three straight operating budget surpluses. As favorable as these financial trends are for Oneida County, it doesn’t mean a sales tax reduction should be anticipated next year.

County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr. has no intention of lowering county sales tax when it is renewal time next year. As for the casino money, the county official said he’s going to “put it to the proper use.” He adds, “There are things we need to address.”

He’s currently focused on crafting a 2015 budget that holds the line on, or maybe even lowers, property taxes. Spending requests from department heads are under review. The county tax levy did not increase this year.

The local rate of 4.75 percent actually has three components, 3 percent, 1 percent and 0.75 percent. The 1 percent and 0.75 percent levies both expire Nov. 30, 2015, unless the county requests and the state approves their continuation. The 3 percent tax has no sunset provision.

At 8.75 percent, the county’s combined state and local sales tax is among the highest in the state. Notwithstanding, it is easy to understand why Picente is loathe to make even a small downward sales tax adjustment; it is the county’s largest revenue source — a projected $96.4 million this year, or about 25 percent of the $375.9 million spending plan. He said dropping the 0.75 percent levy would cost the county between $7.5 million and $8 million.

“I am not doing that,” he declared during a discussion of sales tax reduction at Wednesday’s Republican legislative caucus. A 1 percent hike in the tax levy raises about $600,000.

He said the casino money flowing from the Oneida Indian Nation to the state to the county shouldn’t be viewed as an offset for other funding sources. “I am not giving up one revenue for another” one, he said. “That’s not in my plans.”

He reminded the legislators that the settlement reached last year by the tribe, state, and Oneida and Madison counties has some negative implications on county sales tax collections because state and county sales tax is no longer charged at the Oneidas’ Turning Stone Resort Casino or their other businesses.
[Note: the tribal tax is supposed to equal what the state & county sales taxes are, by the settlement agreement.]

“We’re still in the early stages to see how it (the settlement) does affect sales tax,” he said. The agreement took effect in March.

Plus, he noted that the county is sharing some casino money with two towns and one village because they are directly impacted by the presence of tax-free Oneida Indian land within their boundaries.

During his comments at the GOP caucus Picente referenced recent letters to the editor in newspapers saying it would be appropriate to cut the county sales tax.

For example, Camden resident John Killian wrote one that appeared in the Daily Sentinel. “While I realize that such a tax decrease needs to be budgeted, and likely cannot be done all at once, it is time to start rolling back our sales tax, perhaps .25% at a time, until it gets back to 8% like our neighbors,” he said.

No surrounding county is higher than 8.25 percent when it comes to sales tax. Most are at 8 percent.
[Note: that’s because the casino has always cost more than it brought in. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/23/14 12:57 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2..._agreement.html
COMMENTS SHOULD BE READ

The article reads like a rewrite from a tribal press release and can't have any documentation to back it up. The 2008 ROD was thrown out in federal court. There are still three lawsuits against it. The "deal" King Ray made with the Assistant Regional BIA director isn't worth the paper it's written on and likely doesn't even say what King Ray says is in it. The Assistant Regional BIA director has no authority to take land into trust. Even Congress didn't have that authority when they gave it to the Secretary of Interior in 1934.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/26/14 08:50 PM

http://saneenergyproject.org/2014/06/30/will-casino-deal-open-new-york-to-fracking/
Will Casino Deal Open New York to Fracking?
June 30, 2014 by clarity

Bottom line: Yes, it could. As of today, June 30, 2014, land within Madison and Oneida counties (just east of Syracuse) that is owned by the Oneida Indian Nation becomes eligible for conversion to federal “Trust” land and subject to Bureau of Land Management rules. According to Bureau of Indian Affairs spokesperson Nedra Darling, “As of June 30, the Department of the Interior will take the land into trust at a time of its choosing.” The change comes as a result of a settlement deal brokered by Cuomo and Oneida Indian Nation Representative and CEO, Ray Halbritter. This settlement is a casino deal, but one with implications that concern fractivists.

Because federal land is not subject to state or local law, under Obama’s “All of the Above” energy policy, the change could open the door to fracking within New York State, despite a de facto moratorium.

[Note: that was a known fact before the settlement was made. And the state giving the tribe 25,000 acres and dropping the foreclosure lawsuit is not just a casino deal. Plus the feds were not part of the settlement. Don’t believe everything you read in the paper or hear on the news. The lawsuits dropped by the state and counties cannot be reopened or filed again because the statute of limitations will have expired. When the feds, which were not part of the settlement, falter on any part of the deal that Cuomo made without them, the tribe can and will stop all payments. With a legitimate casino compact the state could shut it down, which is all it had to do in the first place. But it won’t because King Ray has bought too many politicians. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 08/26/14 08:53 PM

http://romesentinel.com/county/interior-takes-13-004-acres-of-oneida-lands-into-trust/QBqnhy!J6IkAaU3ADi@WjnZNJh3A/
Interior takes 13,004 acres of Oneida lands into trust
Aug 25, 2014

VERONA — The U.S. Interior Department has taken 13,004 acres of Oneida Indian Nation land into trust on behalf of the nation.

The transfer includes some 8,750 acres in Oneida County, mostly in the towns of Verona and Vernon.

The action completes a process that began in 2005 following a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that went against the Oneidas.

Trust land was bitterly contested along the way, and several lawsuits filed challenging its 2008 approval are still in effect.

In June, the U.S. Justice Department told a federal district court judge that the land could be taken into trust despite opposition that continues to this day.

Deeds transferring the land from the Oneidas to the United States of America were filed last week at the county clerk’s office in Oneida and Madison counties.

Oneida County Clerk Sandra J. DePerno said 158 deeds, including ones that cover multiple parcels, were filed at her office on Wednesday.

[Note: Deeds filed do not make it trust land. They tried pulling the same thing off in Washington State. The deeds have to have title insurance attached or they are not valid. Furthermore, notice has to be filed in the federal register, which it hasn’t. The locals are clueless.]

Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr. said the county did not have a direct role in the transfer although it was notified by Interior that it was taking place.

The action is the result of a 2008 recommendation by Interior’s Bureau of Indian Affairs that the federal government take slightly more than 13,000 acres in the two counties into trust on behalf of the tribe.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/02/14 06:56 PM

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2014/SEP02/SimplePlan.html
A Simple Plan: Use Seneca Casino Money To Reduce Property Taxes, Period!
By Mike Hudson
September 02, 2014

Niagara Falls' share of the slot machines at the Seneca Niagara Casino is so immense that if it was used to simply reduce reduces taxes, residents would pay the lowest taxes in the nation.

(Ed note: [not my note] As a possible hint to prospective mayor candidates for Niagara Falls, Mike Hudson has crafted a simple platform that could, if anyone stops to really think about it, not only get someone elected, but could solve the entire problems of the city.)

It seems so obvious a child could figure it out.

The exorbitant property taxes paid by homeowners and businesses in Niagara Falls are the single leading cause of the mass exodus of hardworking middle class people leaving the city, as well as the reluctance of outside entrepreneurs to take a chance on starting up a new business here.

Dollar for dollar, based on the value of the real estate in question Falls' residents and businesses pay the highest taxes in the region, the state and, arguably, the whole country.

The high taxes are figured into what renters pay for an apartment, what the cost of a meal is at your favorite restaurant and the price of potatoes at the grocery store.

Now get this: The total amount collected by the city for property taxes from businesses and homeowners here amounts to approximately $28.5 million annually. And the revenue the city gets under the compact between the state and the Seneca Nation of Indians is between $20 million and $25 million a year.

Some of the casino cash is spoken for in advance, of course, by the school district, the airport and the hospital, but each year the city is left with something on the order of $18 million to $20 million. Since the casino was opened in 2003, the city has taken in and burned through around $174 million in casino cash.

Former mayor Irene Elia, God bless her, didn't spend a nickel of it. Her successor in office, Vince Anello, spent around $13 million.

The rest, more than $160 million has been spent by one man – our sitting mayor, Paul Dyster. And to date, not a single permanent private sector job has been created despite that substantial outlay.

That comes as no surprise. Dyster has never created a private sector job in his whole life. He lists "businessman" on his resume, but the home beer brewing supply store he owns up Tonawanda way is not only subsidized by family money but employs only members of the Dyster family, his wife and kids.

He says he spent that $160 million on "economic development." The Hard Rock Café concert series, the Holiday Market debacle, the welfare for the rich handouts to cheap touts like Mark Hamister for his pie in the sky little box hotel downtown, the new train station and the North Main Street courthouse… These are the sorts of things Dyster thinks constitute economic development.

Take a look around. Do you see anything developing?

So how about this? We take the casino money, throw it straight into the general fund, and cut property taxes here by 75 percent.

Now, instead of being the highest taxed municipality in the nation, Niagara Falls would be one of the lowest. Suddenly, a guy who's been paying $4,000 a year in property taxes will have that reduced to $1,000.

And what's he going to do with it, put it in the bank for his retirement?

Hell no. He's going out and having a steak dinner, maybe bowl a few frames with the boys and later take in a movie with his girlfriend, then go for a couple of cocktails afterward. The next morning he'll feel guilty and give his wife the money to buy a new washer and dryer.

The restaurant, bowling alley, movie theater, saloon and appliance store will all benefit financially. And they guy himself would still have money to burn.

All around the country, people would sit up and take notice.

"Hey, wait a minute," they'd say. "You mean I could live in New York and pay half the property taxes I would in a place like North Carolina, where you can't even get a decent slice of pizza?"

Niagara Falls property values would spike immediately, instead of continuing on their downward spiral. No longer would young Community Development Director Seth Piccirillo have to pay recent college graduates to come to the city, they'd be elbowing each other out of the way to get in.

And no longer would the city's banking arm, NFC Development Corp., have to hand out millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars in order to lure new business here. The tax advantages would speak for themselves.

Suddenly the city wouldn't have to grant landlords $10,000 a unit to fix up vacant apartments. The landlords would have the money in their pockets thanks to the tax savings, and could pay for it themselves.

The size of government itself here would shrink, as a more affluent populace would have less need for the social service workers, law enforcement personnel and others whose employment is largely dependent on poverty.

And perhaps that's exactly what Dyster is afraid of. Because he clearly believes that more government is the solution to every problem, and that bureaucrats such as himself, with little or no real world experience, know how to spend your money better than you do.

Because whether we're talking real estate tax revenue, casino cash or state and federal grants, it's all your money, not City Hall's.

Labor Day weekend is just behind us, an annual reminder of the fact that each and every drop of sweat off each and every one of our brows represents a noble and worthy undertaking, deserving of reward.

Deserving of something more, anyway, than having a rich kid like our sitting mayor, take it away and tell us he knows how better to spend it than we do.

Bottom of the article cartoon reads: How to Lower Taxes for Dummies 1. Reduce Spending 2. Reduce Spending 3. Reduce Spending

[Note: A quick Google research shows where the money went. Whether it bought enough votes to keep the incumbent in office will be decided in the next election.

http://www.nysenate.gov/files/pdfs/CASINO%20FUNDS-WEB-SITE-%20SENATOR%20MAZIARZ-2-10-14.pdf

Out of that $20M a year, over $5M a year goes to offset the COST of the casino in police, fire & lost taxes. Plus his $20M a year is rather exaggerated. Any budget scrutinized by one with common sense will question why?
Obviously what Mike thinks people will do with reduced taxes may be a fantasy as big as the casino promoters hype on increased tourism. Didn’t happen. Good deal for the State, which doesn’t have to live with it, and lousy deal for the host community.

But Niagara Falls was ruined by its own politics before the casino came there, and it continues. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/05/14 06:14 PM

Post 1 of 4

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/18791-[font: exploiting-indians
Tuesday, 29 July 2014 15:30
[font:Arial Black]Exploiting Indians [/font]
Written by Alex Newman

Many of Doug Thompson’s constituents are nervous. Some are angry. More still are confused. The soft-spoken Wyoming cattle rancher has been ranching in vast Fremont County since 1970, and has been on the County Commission for 14 years, serving as the chair for a decade now. Despite the brutal winters, it is a quiet and beautiful area, where hard-working descendants of pioneers, alongside Native Americans, have eked out a meager living from the land for over a century, mostly in agriculture, tourism, and energy. Slightly more than 40,000 people live there, spread out across a county that is about the size of Vermont.

Thompson’s ranch, located some 45 miles from the local Indian reservation, is not in jeopardy right now. But the same cannot be said, at least not with any degree of certainty, for the rights of thousands of other citizens in the area, whose businesses, lands, self-government, access to water, and potentially even livelihoods may be under threat — at least if the Obama administration and its increasingly lawless Environmental Protection Agency get their way.

In December, defying established federal law and multiple U.S. court rulings, unelected bureaucrats at the EPA made Fremont County perhaps the most high-profile battleground in a quiet but disturbing assault taking place across much of the nation. Working with other departments, the EPA unilaterally purported to place the city of Riverton, Wyoming, inside the nearby Indian reservation’s boundaries — and more importantly, under the jurisdiction of tribal authorities for the Wind River Indian tribes. At least two smaller towns, Kinnear and Pavillion, were also decreed by the EPA to be within tribal borders.

Riverton is the largest town in Fremont County, home to more than one-fourth of the population and serving as the economic hub for the region. In 1905, Native Americans were paid and Congress passed a law opening up parts of the area to settlers, decreasing the size of the vast Indian reservation. By most accounts, relations between Native Americans and other county residents had generally been peaceful and friendly. As the federal government and the tribal governments it funds team up against non-tribal members, though, tensions are reportedly rising.

The boundary dispute that recently made headlines across America with the EPA ruling has been simmering quietly under the surface for years. Wyoming officials and experts say Congress settled the question more than a century ago — along with the courts in subsequent rulings. But the Obama administration, apparently not agreeing with the law or the courts, handed over more than a million additional acres and three non-Indian towns to the tribes with a simple decree.

“My contention is that this is a congressional call,” says Thompson, the rancher and County Commission chair. “It seems like under this current administration, they are trying to do all these things administratively, which is totally inappropriate. It’s not up to a political regime to do this. It’s a basic philosophical problem. The EPA should not be re-defining boundaries or subjecting citizens to a government that they have no formal say in — voting, access, and so on.”

In an interview with The New American, Thompson explained that there has been a longtime effort by the tribal governments to reestablish the old boundaries of the reservation. Using litigation, for example, the federally funded tribal authorities — flush with federally granted casino-monopoly cash and U.S. taxpayer funds — have tried to establish jurisdiction over the land and its non-Indian inhabitants, too. Those efforts failed. However, following the lead of other Native American governments across the country, tribal leaders in Fremont County tried a new tactic.

According to an analysis of government documents, the EPA decision stemmed from a 2008 request by the Wind River Indian tribes to obtain “treatment as a state” (TAS) or “treatment similar to a state” (TSTS) under federal environmental regulatory schemes. In this case, it was done via an amendment to the Clean Air Act, which purports to impose EPA mandates on state governments. Once approved, the EPA ruling TAS allows tribal authorities to be “treated as a state” for regulatory purposes. That means tribal authorities can receive even more federal taxpayer dollars under the guise of implementing and enforcing various EPA regulations, which normally would be handled by the state government.

If the federal government and the tribal governments it funds succeed in Fremont County, everything from water rights and air quality to land use — in some cases even 50 miles beyond whatever the reservation boundary is determined to be — could be regulated by tribal authorities, over whom non-tribal members have no vote. For now, state and local officials have been instructed by the governor to continue operating as usual while the state government prepares to battle the Obama administration in court.

Among other major problems, the EPA ruling, made in consultation with the Obama administration’s Department of Interior and the Justice Department, might even make the city of Riverton ineligible for many state and local services, including law enforcement and emergency response. It also raises numerous concerns over taxation, regulation, permitting, and a wide range of other issues involving jurisdiction, officials and experts say. Even tribe members convicted of crimes in state courts may be able to challenge the state’s jurisdiction because they can claim the crimes they committed were perpetrated on the Indian reservation under tribal jurisdiction; in fact, it’s already happening.

Under the arrangement prior to the EPA’s ruling, the Indian reservation was under tribal jurisdiction, along with any lands held in federal trust for the tribes outside the formal reservation boundaries. The federal Bureau of Indian Affairs and other agencies handle much of the governance, despite claims of tribal “sovereignty” parroted by the feds and the tribes. Non-members of the tribes, meanwhile, were subject to state and local authorities such as the sheriff and state regulators.

“What this would do is put Riverton, the irrigation districts, and the main non-tribal areas — those are state, county, and municipal jurisdictions — under the tribes’ governments. They could assert significant jurisdiction, up to and including taxation and regulation,” Thompson said. “That doesn’t mean if the EPA decision stands, that would happen, but in other states that has happened. The tribes say, ‘We’re not gonna do that right now.’ Well, maybe they aren’t going to now, but all they have to do is go to court and say this is their jurisdiction.”

When the EPA decision was first announced, Thompson explained, many county residents were confused and frightened. “The first question that came out was, ‘What is the security of the deeds to our property?’” he said. “The answer is that, if you own the property, you still own it. The difference will be in how you can use your property.” And that difference, of course, is crucial, since property could be useless if it cannot be freely used.

“If you bring another governmental jurisdiction into the mix — say there were permitting regulations exerted — then you’d have to get a tribal permit as well,” the commission chair explained. “Now that hits on the foundational problem in this whole deal: You are subjecting non-tribal members to a governmental entity that they have absolutely no say in, because they are not tribal members. You’re totally subject to a tribal government authority that you have no say in. You can’t vote for the leaders. If they don’t want to meet you, they just shut down the meeting. That’s the crux of this whole thing.”

“The non-tribe members are greatly concerned,” Thompson said of county residents. “Citizens are nervous about what this means — they’re hearing a lot of mixed messages. They hear from tribal members ‘we’re gonna take your land back, we’re gonna regulate you out of business,’ so they’re justifiably concerned.” Even the mayor of Riverton says he has received similar threats.

State-level Resistance

In Wyoming, the deeply controversial executive-branch machinations that purported to place Riverton, Kinnear, and Pavillion inside tribal boundaries have sparked a massive outcry among residents and state officials, with Wyoming Governor Matt Mead and his administration vowing to fight back.

“My deep concern is about an administrative agency of the federal government altering a state’s boundary and going against over 100 years of history and law,” the governor added in a statement. “This should be a concern to all citizens because, if the EPA can unilaterally take land away from a state, where will it stop?” The governor also thanked the Wyoming attorney general and his staff for urgently preparing a thorough review of the historical record on the issue. “This analysis shows how flawed the EPA was in its legal justification for its decision,” Mead said, adding that all avenues would be pursued. “The federal government clearly had a predetermined outcome it sought to uphold.”

In a petition to EPA bosses asking the agency to reconsider and stay its decision, Wyoming Attorney General Peter Michael said the Obama administration’s scheme depends on “a host of faulty factual and legal conclusions.” The document cites a broad range of statutes, treaties, and court decisions, arguing that the EPA essentially cherry-picked arguments in a manner “more akin to advocacy” to reach a determination that is simply “wrong.” The attorney general said that the decision would strip the state of its sovereign right to exercise jurisdiction over lands “rightly within its control” and that it must be overturned — or at least delayed until the courts can review it. “A failure to do so will likely lead to civil and criminal jurisdictional turmoil, irreparably harming the public interest,” he warned, echoing widespread concerns.

Wyoming’s entire delegation to the U.S. Congress has also expressed deep concerns, with Senator John Barrasso blasting the Obama administration for again thinking it “can ignore the law of the land when it suits their agenda.”

EPA and the Tribes

The federal government has been suspiciously quiet since dropping the bombshell on Wyoming in December. The agency did eventually stay its decision as the legal battle in the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals proceeds. Some analysts expect that litigation to eventually end up before the Supreme Court.

Tribal leaders, on the other hand, have responded to the growing uproar across the state — and even the nation — in a variety of ways, particularly by trying to downplay fears and attack critics. As has become typical, tribal officials were quick to suggest that opposition to the EPA decision and the tribal governments’ actions may be based on “racism.” Ironically, even the mere suggestion that everyone should be treated equally under the law regardless of race is often met with howls of “racism” from powerful tribal leaders rolling in federal taxpayer dollars and revenue generated from casino monopolies (granted to tribal governments by the 1988 Indian Gaming Regulatory Act).

In Fremont County, tribal leaders have also claimed that they mostly just want “clean air,” though they have also become increasingly bold in discussing the “potential” for further jurisdictional issues that should be “negotiated” rather than litigated. Tribal government leaders at the reservation were not available for comment and did not return phone calls to The New American by press time.

When the Citizens Equal Rights Alliance (CERA), which supports constitutional government, held a convention in Riverton about the ongoing issues, tribal leaders furiously lashed out, even comparing the non-profit group to the Ku Klux Klan. The establishment media in Wyoming disgracefully allowed its pages to promote the smear. However, group leaders and local citizens told The New American that the attacks were so far detached from reality that it was hard to believe the claims were even made — much less printed. CERA’s previous chair, for example, was a Cherokee Indian, and the group has represented Native American tribes whose water rights or other protections were under government assault. More than 50 elected officials attended CERA’s gathering despite the libelous accusations.

The Tip of a Dangerous Iceberg

The Riverton case blew the lid off a phenomenon that has been proceeding quietly across the United States for decades. It turns out that, despite the lack of press coverage, the EPA’s efforts to hand jurisdiction over multiple towns to Indian tribes were merely the proverbial tip of a gargantuan iceberg. Indeed, from coast to coast, multiple federal agencies have been working with tribal governments in a concerted attack on the U.S. Constitution, property rights, self-government, water rights, and more. Perhaps the biggest difference in the Wyoming case is that state officials — who across America are having their campaign coffers stuffed with Indian casino cash — actually spoke out, and the press reported on it.

However, it is not the first time that the phenomenon attracted at least some degree of public scrutiny. In fact, the scandalous federal exploitation of supposed Native American “interests” to justify power grabs surfaced very briefly over a decade ago, when EPA bureaucrats were convicted of fraud in mid-2000 in a case purporting to grant “Treatment as a State” status to three tribal governments in Wisconsin. In that instance, two EPA officials were busted for falsifying documents in a bizarre attempt to justify allowing the tribes to regulate water in and around their reservations, which would have had nightmarish implications for the overwhelming non-Indian majority in the area.

“Aside from the poor judgment displayed by some of the key participants in this case, another factor influencing developments in Region V is EPA’s relationship with the tribes,” explained Dr. Bonner Cohen, now a senior fellow with the National Center for Public Policy Research, after the EPA fraud and power grabs were exposed and prosecuted. “That relationship is characterized by an odd mixture of intimacy and mutual exploitation that has come back to haunt both parties.”
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/05/14 06:23 PM

Post 2 of THREE

That case, though, was hardly unique. Elaine Willman, who is of Cherokee Indian ancestry, is among a handful of respected experts who can speak credibly on a subject that is deliberately shrouded in obscurity and deception — federal Indian policy. Her husband is also of Native American ancestry and is even related to Sacajawea, the celebrated Indian who served on the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Willman served as the chair of the Citizens Equal Rights Alliance from 2001 to 2007 until accepting the position of director of community development and tribal affairs with the small Village of Hobart in Wisconsin. She still serves on CERA’s board and is working on a doctoral degree in federal Indian policy, one of her passions and an issue she says requires much more attention and some major reforms.

After travelling across the country to visit Indian reservations and conduct interviews, Willman’s worst suspicions were confirmed. The proliferation and empowerment of federally funded tribal governments, working with the federal government itself, threatens the constitutionally protected rights of all Americans, including, ironically, the descendants of the original Native Americans. It threatens self-government, too, she says.

In 2005, Willman published a book on the subject entitled Going to Pieces: The Dismantling of the United States of America. It is packed with examples of abuses stemming from tribal governments in cahoots with state and federal policymakers. America is increasingly being governed by tribalism, she says, a system whereby federally funded tribal governments work with their federal paymasters to attack state sovereignty, private property, the unalienable rights of non-tribe members and Indians, and much more.

Early on in the book, which recounts her 6,000-mile voyage from her native Washington State to New York, she describes massive land grabs in rural Northern Idaho being facilitated by the EPA, the Department of the Interior, and other state and federal agencies. Among other concerns, she explains that tribal governments, with the connivance of state and federal officials getting big campaign contributions from tribal governments, are unilaterally expanding the borders of Indian reservations far beyond what U.S. law permitted. Tribal governments are working to exercise jurisdiction over property owners whose families have owned the land for a century, sometimes even longer. The Coeur d’Alene tribe, for example, with help from federal officials, is among the tribal governments trying to push out the boundaries of the areas they control, with everyday citizens and their lawfully owned properties in the crosshairs.

Among those who have been forced to deal with the problems are Roger Hardy and his wife, Toni, whose grandparents lawfully homesteaded their more than 500 acres of lakeshore land more than a century ago. With help from the EPA, and despite huge legal costs for the Hardys trying to fight it, the Coeur d’Alene tribal government was able to acquire control over a public “walking trail” through the property after a contaminated railroad track fell out of use. Tribe members reportedly regularly enter their private property, sometimes damaging it, sometimes shooting guns at anything that moves under the guise of “ancient hunting rights,” and more. The tribe’s actual reservation has been about 70,000 acres since the late 1800s. Tribal authorities, though, with connivance of federal and state officials, have been working hard to expand its boundaries to the former 350,000 acres. That puts Roger and Toni’s property — along with many others’ — at serious risk.

Aggressive actions by another tribal government in Idaho, the Nez Perce tribe, with several thousand enrolled members, prompted local authorities from across the region to band together in an effort to contain the tribal government’s claims of purported jurisdiction. There, tribal officials were trying to extort gargantuan amounts of money for “permits” from non-Native residents for simple actions such as building a school — on non-reservation land — all while trying to usurp water rights and more.

County and local governments there were providing virtually all taxpayer-funded services to everyone in the central Idaho area, including tribe members. Still, the tribal government was receiving more in federal grants alone than the local and district governments were collecting in total revenues, combined. The tribal government was also bringing in big bucks from an Indian casino and tax-exempt businesses, which have a major advantage over non-Indian businesses due to the taxation arrangements. The tribal government, like others across America, was pouring that money into buying up more land, hiring lobbyists, funding politicians, and employing swarms of attorneys to push its goals through litigation in the courts.

Some of the most alarming tales of joint tribal-federal abuse came from Thurston County, Nebraska, home to the Omaha and Winnebago reservations and numerous non-Indian farmers whose ancestors acquired the land lawfully, often by purchasing it from Indians. Over a decade ago, large swaths of the area, part of EPA “Region 7,” were placed under the regulatory jurisdiction of tribal governments on everything from pesticides to environmental regulations. Non-Indian farmers were suddenly faced with a nightmarish situation of being governed by federal and Indian authorities with whom they held no sway.

Incredibly, tribal law enforcement — mostly from the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs — even began harassing and brutalizing some local farmers. In her book, Willman tells the story of the Knecht family, which has farmed the land for four generations. In 2004, Kim Knecht, the son, was on a tractor in his family’s fields when he spotted three Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) tribal police cars speeding toward him. Apparently the Omaha tribal government had decided that part of the Knechts’ lawfully owned farm was actually its property. One of the cars rammed Kim’s tractor before a gaggle of tribal cops jumped out and dragged him off his vehicle, scraping his back in the process. The officers maced him, slammed him on the ground, and put him in handcuffs. Kim’s frantic wife called 911 before running toward her husband in a panic. She was arrested, too. Kim’s father, Vernon, also ran out and demanded that the tribal officers get off his private property. After claiming that the land was on the “reservation,” they eventually did leave, taking Kim with them to a tribal jail and charging him with assaulting tribal law enforcement, ramming their vehicles, and “resisting arrest.” Finally, after thousands of dollars squandered on legal fees, Kim was cleared of all the bogus charges, and a federal judge severely reprimanded the tribal cops. However, no charges were ever brought against the tribal officers for trespassing, assault, harassment, destruction of property, or any other crimes.

Incredibly, just weeks passed before Vernon suffered a similarly traumatic incident at the hands of the tribal cops. After reluctantly (considering what happened to his son) helping his Indian friend feed the tribe’s buffalo, Vernon left his tractor on the reservation at the request of his friend, a member of the tribe. Tribal BIA police then went to tow it away. When Vernon found out, the 73-year-old went to investigate, and sure enough, the officers were hauling his machine away. He got out and explained the situation to the officers. They responded by immediately beating him on the head with clubs, throwing him to the ground, rubbing his face in the gravel, and handcuffing him. Pleading with the officers for his heart medication and covered in bruises, Vernon was eventually taken from the scene to the hospital by paramedics. It took months for his face to heal. Kim, who stayed in the truck at his dad’s request, took pictures of the beating, but considering his own legal problems with the tribal government, he could not do much. Vernon was eventually charged with “stealing hay” and “trespassing” on Indian land, though those trumped up charges were eventually dropped as well. “American citizens … don’t have any rights here anymore,” then-County Sheriff Charles Obermeyer is quoted as saying in Willman’s book.

Even more worrying at the time, Willman explains, were plans to cross-deputize tribal enforcers, giving them power to enforce state law in addition to tribal law, even against non-Indians.

In Washington State, meanwhile, Willman also found similarly troubling trends. To illustrate the lunacy of the EPA “Treatment as States” policies for Indian tribes under the Clean Air Act, for example, she used two maps. The first shows the state government’s air-quality regions under EPA mandates. The second features the areas where “Indian air” would be controlled by tribal governments — essentially the entire state, once the “weighted comment” scheme giving them powers over 50 miles outside reservations is taken into account.

“Regulatory control of America’s air and water directly impacts America’s industries, private sector market places, farming, energy and natural resources,” Willman explains. “TSTS [Treatment Similar to a State] is the stealth bomb that has been launched and is heading for the target. Highly urbanized areas such as Portland, Seattle, and the entire West Coast could soon become beholden to multiple approvals required by Indian tribes in order to open a business or conduct any activity within their jurisdictions.” Across America, wherever there are self-styled “sovereign” tribal governments, the threat is there, too.

The Department of Interior has also been plotting to hand over massive swaths of public lands to tribal government managers. Public spaces deemed to have “special geographic, historical, or cultural significance to self-governance tribes,” for example, could eventually be run by tribal authorities. Even “close proximity” could be enough to let tribal governments take over governance of dozens of national parks and “wildlife refuges” across America. Willman suggests access to the areas is being “systematically” restricted — potentially even to the point of denying access — to everyone except the Native American Indian population. In recent years, as just one example, tribal governments in South Dakota, with full federal connivance, have been seeking control over huge swaths of the Badlands National Park. Analysts also said that plot could set a “precedent” for other tribes across America to seize control over national parks. However, at least in this case, tribal and non-Indian residents in the area are resisting the giant land grab being cooked up by the tribal governments and the federal one.

In Montana, among the stops on the journey, Willman and her colleague, Kamie Christensen Biehl, found a wide range of problems brought about by joint federal-Indian government abuses. Since the book was written, the situation has only grown worse. As just one example, as this article is being written, non-tribal members across 11 western Montana counties are being threatened with potential ruin through the loss of water rights to the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes (CSKT). Especially under threat are the more than 20,000 non-Native Americans who lawfully own land and property in the Flathead Indian reservation, home to about 4,000 Indians who are openly seeking to reclaim all of the land that was sold off beginning in the early 1900s.

On July 8, a busload of non-Native locals from the region, along with a caravan of cars full of ranchers, descended on Helena to testify against the plot to hand over control over water to the tribal government and its federal “partners” as part of a new, perpetual “compact.” If approved, the tribal government would be effectively in full control over the property and destinies of tens of thousands of non-Native citizens by controlling their access to water — perhaps the single most essential resource.

Clarice Ryan, an activist with Concerned Citizens of Montana working to fend off the attack on water rights, told The New American that the land grabs are “happening nationwide, with the federal government using the reservations to gain control of land, water, air, and energy. I truly believe that what is happening right here on our Salish Kootenai Reservation could become the pilot program and poster child laying the groundwork for the policies and political strategies nationwide.”

The above examples represent but a tiny fraction of the abuses perpetrated against citizens of all races by the federal government and its dependent so-called sovereign tribal governments. While a few court rulings have sought to rein in some of the wildest abuses — EPA just got unanimously smacked down in the liberal D.C. Court of Appeals for trying to override the government of Oklahoma in Indian country and essentially regulate dust — the lawlessness is still growing.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/05/14 06:24 PM

Post 3 of 3

How Did This Happen?

The hundreds of tribal governments and the federal government have developed a sort of symbiotic relationship benefiting both — at the expense of the rights of Americans and Indians alike. Of course, it is important to draw a distinction between tribal governments and Native Americans. Estimates suggest just one in five Indians is actually registered as part of a tribal government or lives on a reservation. While all Indians are and have been U.S. citizens for generations, only a handful actually willingly subject themselves to the rule of federally funded tribal governments.

There are more than 550 officially recognized tribal “nations” spread across about 30 states. Most of them have a Department of Interior-approved “constitution” under the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934, which establishes the tribe’s governing system. Once recognized and approved, the tribal governments then become quasi-dependent “sovereigns,” with huge amounts of federal tax dollars and supposed “sovereignty” delegated to them by the federal government. “It’s all a horrible hoax,” Willman told The New American in one of a series of extended interviews exploring federal Indian policy.

Of course, the reservation system has, by any objective measure, been a miserable failure. As The New American has documented in the past, statistics for life in Indian country paint a grim tale of alcoholism, violence, drug abuse, broken families, dependence, poverty, abuse, suicide, lack of education, and a general feeling of hopelessness. Many tribal leaders benefit from the system, of course, but for members, generally speaking at least, misery reigns across most of Indian country.

“This establishment thrives because of the perverted interpretation of sovereignty. The Indian establishment — I’m talking about tribal government and the Bureau of Indian Affairs — wield a lot of power in Washington,” Faron Iron, a member of the Crow tribe who has served on the tribe’s executive committee but disagreed with the tribal government’s policies, is quoted as saying in Willman’s book. “They purport to be Indian experts and they speak for the common Indian, but it isn’t so. They protect the system itself, which benefits them. As far as people, they merely serve as statistics to qualify for funds or whatever else they need. The people are basically to be used, is what it is.”

But how did the accelerating joint tribal-federal assaults on liberty, property, and self-government come about? Willman says one of the key tools is the exploitation of guilt. As documented in innumerable history books, the descendants of Europeans who arrived in America over hundreds of years were often brutal toward Native Americans, as was the federal government. While few living Americans today participated in historical atrocities against Indians, a feeling of collective guilt still pervades the culture. This is a crucial weapon in allowing the federal government and its Indian government “partners” to run roughshod over the rights of Americans with little protest or media coverage. “They have abused white guilt,” Willman explains.

Another key tool is the deluge of cash facilitated by the feds. “You can time the explosion and the abuse of Indian policy to the emergence of federal casino monopolies in 1988,” Willman explained. “As soon as that act passed, that money truly did start buying up the political process, and that is when the abuse really blew up, you can trace it. Before that, there had been a live-and-let-live atmosphere between communities. That was the tipping point — these gaming tribes started getting mega-wealthy. The money was intended to improve the lives of people on the reservations, but it has not done so. It’s just money for the tribal leaders and political contributions. That financial leverage really ties in with the expanded symbiotic relationship.”

After visiting nine reservations, Willman summarized the process that occurs: “A tribe gets a casino(s); a tribe buys political and legal power; surrounding counties, towns and citizens are bullied; a tribe buys or economically forces out landowners/businesses; elected officials get quiet, or get purchased; non-tribal lands and economies dwindle quickly; thousands of American citizens lose — sometimes everything; tribalism as a governing system” then eventually replaces self-government.

It is also important to understand how these reservations function economically — much more akin to central planning and socialism than to American notions of free markets. The tribal government largely controls jobs, the economy, the distribution of federal tax dollars, and more. “Centralizing and expanding the power of the federal government in various states over citizens, and spreading socialism — tribal governments — as a governing system is a marvellous way to domestically undermine the principles of our U.S. Constitution,” Willman says.

Of course, much of the trend is fuelled, as with most ongoing assaults on freedom, by Americans’ own tax dollars and the shroud of secrecy that surrounds it all. Willman says, for example, the “total power” of federal Indian policy is based “entirely upon the secrecy and intentional absence of studies done, or audits completed.” Consider President Clinton’s “executive order” in 2000 establishing an “Indian Office” in every single federal agency. Each of those agencies then created financial programs, many of which distribute taxpayer funds to tribal governments. Before that, most of the federal funding went through the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Now, nobody even seems to know how much federal largess is flowing to tribal governments. When CERA held a conference a few years ago in Washington, D.C., a keynote speaker was George Skibine, a high-ranking BIA official. When asked by a CERA board member whether BIA had ever audited how much annual funding goes to the more than 550 tribal governments, he reportedly responded: “We’ve been unable to do that.” Apparently there was one attempt to calculate how many federal dollars from all agencies are distributed to the tribes, but it turned out to be impossible.

As far as the constitutional authority underpinning the developments, experts say it is shrouded in mystery as well. “For at least 29 states that host Indian tribes, this is death by a thousand slashes over a long period of time, to intentionally erode state jurisdiction, administrative or regulatory authority within its own boundaries. The Congressional environmental acts of the mid ’70s became a marvellous tool,” Willman said.

Obama Steps Up the War

As if the problems were not already dangerous enough, the current administration is stepping up the federal exploitation of Native Americans in its effort to “fundamentally transform” the United States. In June, for example, Obama and his wife visited the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Nation in North Dakota to tout his accomplishments and his administration’s “partnerships” with American Indian tribes. “My administration is determined to partner with tribes,” Obama boasted at the summit. “It takes place every day on just about every issue that touches your lives.”

Before the gathering, Obama published a June 5 op-ed in Indian Country Today boasting of his efforts and promising more to come. “As president, I’ve worked closely with tribal leaders, and I’ve benefited greatly from their knowledge and guidance,” he said. “That’s why I created the White House Council on Native American Affairs — to make sure that kind of partnership is happening across the federal government.”

The powerful council was created by an “executive order” last year. The purpose of the order, according to the document itself, was to “promote and sustain prosperous and resilient Native American tribal governments.” While UN agreements on indigenous populations were not mentioned, the controversial decree incorporated more than a few elements of global schemes currently being used worldwide that will be addressed further down.

Tribal government leaders were happy about Obama and his efforts, too. “The best thing that’s happened to Indian Country has been President Obama being elected,” claimed Dave Archambault II, chairman of Standing Rock. Ironically, though, the reservation Obama visited is itself a testament to the utter devastation wrought by federal Indian policy. Despite a federally granted casino monopoly, almost half of the Indians there live in poverty. About 50 percent drop out of high school. An estimated 86 percent of the tribe’s members are unemployed. Alcoholism, obesity, sexual violence, crime, and suicide rates are off the charts. On other reservations, the numbers are even grimmer.

The Obama administration even hosts annual summits for tribal government leaders in Washington, D.C., to meet with top White House officials. Obama has also taken steps to increase “tribal sovereignty” at the expense of state officials by, for example, allowing tribal governments to bypass governors and apply directly for federal emergency and economic development “grants.”

All across the Obama administration, departments are working with Indian governments on deeply controversial programs that have flown largely under the radar. The Justice Department, for example, recently established a permanent “office of tribal justice.” Under an agreement reached amid a lawsuit, the Department of the Interior is now spending billions of dollars buying up land to put in “trust” for various Indian tribes. Obama is also in the process of relaxing the requirements to become a “tribe” and begin receiving federal handouts and vast new regulatory powers to assault property rights, state sovereignty, and the U.S. Constitution.

In recent years, the trends have accelerated at breathtaking speed. If U.S. policymakers do not take action to rein in the administration's ongoing exploitation of its dependent tribal governments in the war on freedom, many more Americans will soon find themselves in federal-tribal crosshairs — with disastrous consequences.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/06/14 09:48 PM

http://romesentinel.com/county/towns-suing-county-dont-get-pacts/QBqnhB!KQWZNXq6SWapqAB9cFHJQ/
Towns suing county don’t get pacts

Sep 6, 2014

Concerns over compliance with the Oneida Indian settlement mean Oneida County is not offering snowplowing agreements to the towns of the Vernon and Verona for the upcoming winter. Also, those towns are suing the county.

County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr. said the county won’t contract with the two towns to ensure adherence with the agreement reached by the state, tribe, and Oneida and Madison counties to end land rights and taxation issues with the Oneidas. It took effect in March following last year’s approval at the county and state levels. He worries that the funding stream from the Oneidas to the state to the counties could be threatened by the contract and similar ones.

Click on URL for full story
Basically it is Picente doing King Ray’s work for him as paybacks to anyone who opposed the con job.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/06/14 09:53 PM

Strange how Picente is so opposed to making deals with the Towns because they are suing the County but he pushed hard to cut a deal with the tribe who was suing the County which was only attempting to enforce the law.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/12/14 01:14 AM

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...-federal-grants
Oneida Nation, Hamilton Municipal Airport receiving federal grants



Several local institutions recently learned they would be receiving federal grants.

U.S. Representative Richard Hanna says The Oneida Indian Nation, Hamilton Municipal Airport and Munson-Williams-Proctor Arts Institute will receive funding from the federal government.

The Institute of Museum and Library Services will give $6,000 to the Oneida Indian Nation to help pay for the tribe’s library operations and services.

Hamilton Municipal Airport will receive $648,470 to pay for new asphalt pavement, markings, drainage and edge lighting. The apron will be expanded by approximately 47,800 square feet and provide more space to park aircraft.

“These improvements will help ensure the safety of air passengers, pilots, and airport employees” Hanna said. “New asphalt, markings and lighting will greatly improve the efficiency at the air field, and I am pleased the FAA granted these funds to help with this project.”

[Note: now why would a congressman who does not represent tribal members, because they are excluded from being counted as “Indians not taxed” under apportionment in the Constitution, be so quick to give them a million of our tax dollars? But he is the third one in a row for that area of NY who has done so. OR, maybe he’s just taking credit for something he had nothing to do with. Tribes apply for grants all the time. But it IS the House which has to appropriate the money.

As most always, the deeds done may well need doing BUT “self determination” does not seem to transform into being responsible for your own bills for the hundreds of multi-million dollar casino tribes which could well pay their own way. ]


http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140910/NEWS/140919934
County denies Vernon, Verona ditching contracts
Sep. 10, 2014

The towns of Vernon and Verona are facing more fallout from their decision to file suit against the historic agreement among the state, Madison and Oneida counties and the Oneida Indian Nation.

The Oneida County Board of Legislators voted Wednesday on contracts for road ditching with many of its towns. Ditching contracts ensure the sides of roads are clean and safe.

Though Vernon and Verona have had such contracts for decades, they didn’t get them this time. And though the contracts are for just a few thousand dollars, they likely are a harbinger of more substantial changes to come.

Plowing contracts will be coming up soon, and Verona’s alone is about $178,000. Vernon’s numbers weren’t immediately available.

“It’s a punitive move on the county’s part,” Verona Supervisor Owen Waller said.

But county Executive Anthony Picente had a different opinion. [Note: of course he does. He works for the tribe to exact vengeance against all who do not succumb to idiotic unreasonable demands. ]

“How do you do business with someone who is suing you?” he said. “And I have to protect the overall settlement money.”

Under the agreement with the Oneidas, which was signed in spring of 2013, New York state gets a quarter of the Nation’s slot machine revenue, or an estimated $50 million. Of that, Oneida County gets one quarter, or an estimated $12.5 million.

The county is not allowed to share any of the money with an entity that is continuing litigation against the agreement. Historically, the county has contracted with many towns for mowing, ditching and plowing of county-owned roads in their boundaries.

At Wednesday’s Board of Legislators meeting, seven of the 23 board members voted against the ditching contracts because they opposed the exclusion of Vernon and Verona.

They pointed to possible safety issues if county plows couldn’t plow some of the roads as regularly as town plows and noted that highway funds are held separate from town operating budgets under the law.

Legislator Chad Davis called the move “retribution” and accused county officials of “strong arm tactics.”

And Democratic Minority Leader Frank Tallarino said the plan is “not cost effective.”
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/13/14 09:08 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2..._in_seneca.html
Oneida Nation critical of potential casino competition from Wilmorite in Seneca County


The Oneida Indian Nation has for the first time publicly criticized a competitor's proposal to build a casino about an hour away along the NYS Thruway.

The Rochester developer Wilmorite has told the state its proposed Lago Resort and Casino at Exit 41 in Tyre, in Seneca County, would generate 30 percent of its $263 million in revenue the first year from customers of existing Native American casinos, records show.

That was alarming to the Oneida Indian Nation, which operates the Turning Stone Casino at Exit 33 in Verona.

"The pie is only so big," said Joel Barkin, a spokesman for Oneida Nation Representative Ray Halbritter.

The Turning Stone Casino makes about $200 million a year on its slot machines.

The nation signed an agreement last year to give 25 percent to the state and local governments in exchange for exclusive rights to operate casinos in a 10-county area.

The Oneidas know competition is coming and they have been silent about the proposals under consideration for the first four licenses.

Until this week.

On Monday, the state gaming commission's siting board invited applicants in to present their proposals. With Wilmorite representatives in the hot seat, state siting board members asked them to explain how they planned to make more money than Turning Stone and how they view competition with an existing casino only an hour away.

Start the video at 47 minutes to see the exchange about Turning Stone.

Lago representatives broke down the numbers like this:
• They hope to take in revenue of $263 million in the first year.

• About $130 million would be generated from new customers both in and out of New York state.

• About $40 million would come from customers of the Seneca Indian Nation's three casinos.

• About $20 million would come from the Finger Lakes Racino.

• The rest would come from "a whole basket coming from folks to the East."

They did not mention Turning Stone by name in their answer.

They said they were confident in their numbers and said $263 million is actually a low estimate.

In a telephone interview Friday, Wilmorite vice president Juris Basens, said he believes competitors will be still be viable with the addition of a casino in Seneca County.

"There's more than enough market here," he said. "Each one of them will have to get better. Competition is always good for the customers, or in this case the gaming public."

Barkin said the Oneida Indian Nation was pleased to hear the siting board ask critical questions.

"The state is going to move forward on expanding gaming. We've always understood that. We've always just made clear that we shouldn't undermine existing economic development by pitting towns against each other," he said. "Clearly this could do a lot of damage."

Barkin said the nation has not submitted comments to the New York State Gaming Commission and is evaluating whether to speak at a public hearing, set for Sept. 24 in Ithaca.

Barkin said the nation is talking about the potential competition with business owners and leaders in the counties that receive a share of their profit payments to the state.

Onondaga County, for example, is set to receive $2.5 million a year and Onondaga County Executive Joanie Mahoney wants to put the money toward a new amphitheater on Onondaga Lake.
[Note: that sounds like a rerun of the Niagara Falls idiocy fiasco. Is the county going to take in over $2.5 million as a result of pissing that away for show? ]

Oneida County, as host to Turning Stone, is expecting about $12.5 million a year and County Executive Tony Picente is about to start adding it to his budget for economic development and other projects.
[Note: keep in mind that Tony Pissant is elected by the county and bought by the tribe. ]

Picente said he opposes Wilmorite's proposal. Picente said he agreed to the deal with the Oneida Nation, which made some concessions on a long-standing land claim, in return for reliable revenue.

[Note: there was no land claim, the tribe lost. The literal scam by the State and tribe lost over $100M in back taxes on the Foreclosure case and dropped lawsuits against that and the 2008 ROD for land into trust and gave the tribe 25,000 acres. The tribe conceded NOTHING.]

The threat of competition just down the road was not part of the deal, he said.
[Note: Again Pissant lied – that was specifically IN the deal. They just couldn’t extend the Oneida tribal monopoly to more than ten counties. ]

"The intent of settling our disputes and moving forward here was because we saw a revenue stream that wouldn't be in danger by the close proximity of another casino, that it would be done in regions," he said. "That is clearly not what it looks to be right now if this application gets approved."
[Note: WTF would Pissant be concerned about another casino for if he wasn’t a tribal puppet? Oh, that’s right, he is. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/15/14 10:35 PM

http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/article_ad8b6972-2573-5f31-93f6-0fdb31447bd7.html
State game warden detained for 5 ½ hours by tribal officials outside Hays

By Brett French

A Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks game warden was detained by Fort Belknap tribal officers Saturday for 5½ hours and threatened with a citation for criminal trespass and the impoundment of his state vehicle before the heated incident was defused.

“They did detain for some time one of our wardens,” said Mike Volesky, FWP’s deputy director, on Monday. “There was no citation issued on site, but they spoke of citing that officer for trespass.”

Volesky said the tribal officers blocked the warden’s truck while the discussions took place and also called a tow truck to impound the warden’s state vehicle. A Blaine County Sheriff’s deputy also responded to the incident, some of which may have been captured by vehicle dashboard cameras.

Fort Belknap Indian Community Council president Mark Azure said the FWP warden was cited for criminal trespass, but added that he didn’t have time to discuss the incident more thoroughly.

The matter has been turned over to the Montana Department of Justice’s Division of Criminal Investigation, according to Blaine County Sheriff Glenn Huestis.

“I just felt this involved a state officer, so I would turn it over to them,” Huestis said.

The incident did not occur on reservation lands, Huestis said, but was instead near the junction of Timber Ridge (also shown on some maps as Barney Olson Road) and Hays roads, about 12 miles west of the small tribal community of Hays.

Region 6 warden Dirk Paulsen, of Chinook, was patrolling in the area at about 8 a.m. Saturday when his vehicle was blocked by vehicles driven by tribal members. The tribal officers cited a resolution passed by the tribal council last October as the reason for the stop, Volesky said.

A copy of the resolution reads in part: “ … that State Fish and Game access to and across Tribal lands, whether in fee or trust, shall be deemed denied, unless authorized.”

Passage of the issue seems to have been triggered by what the resolution calls “ongoing actions by the Fish and Game Officers of the State of Montana to ignore the status of Reservation lands and hunting rights in treaty areas and to target enrolled members of the Tribes with focused enforcement activities.”

He said that some members of the tribe are interpreting the resolution to require any nontribal member to receive a permit from the tribe to travel across tribal lands, even on public county roads.

“It appears to be that, but we dispute that,” Volesky said.

Region 6 FWP warden Capt. Mike Herman, of Glasgow, said the department had been meeting with tribal officials during the past year to try and work out the disagreement.

“It came on their opening day of their rifle season, which was maybe what ticked the bomb off,” Herman said.

[Note: the tribal cops were probably illegally taking game. ]
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/19/14 12:42 AM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140917/NEWS/140919513
Oneidas concerned about casino proposal

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...n-verona-wvideo
Oneida County ditches contract with Vernon, Verona (w/video)


AND THEN WE HAVE:

Support for and against Ray Halbritter (of the Oneida Indian Nation); and, the new compact with the tribe at the level of Oneida County Government is affecting other matters within the County of Oneida.

To think that the ‘Settlement Agreement’ was passed to purportedly ‘end all disputes once and for all…”
That is not turning out to be the case…

Subject: Snowplowing Issue Involving Vernon & Verona and the County of Oneida

FROSTY DEBATE ON PLOW PACTS

Here's the segment from the Oneida County Board of Legislators Meeting in which Legislator Chad Davis made some points about the inclination by the County of Oneida to not offer plowing contracts to the Towns of Vernon and Verona this winter for the plowing of County of Oneida Roads, which has been done in the past, at least since the 1950's without interruption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJFLD9Z-2cI
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/21/14 04:51 AM

By DAVID L. SHAW dshaw@fltimes.com

UNION SPRINGS — Daniel French, a lawyer for the Cayuga Indian Nation and its six-member governing body, says the takeover of two tribal businesses by a group of six to 12 Native Americans is enough to justify their arrests.

Otherwise, he said, they “can keep doing this over and over.’’

The group remained locked inside the Cayuga Indian Nation’s LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience store on Route 90 Friday, more than 48 hours after seizing the business by force around noon Wednesday.

Prior to that, they had forcibly occupied the tribe’s Great Swamp Enterprise cigarette plant on Ovid Street in Seneca Falls, where they remained incommunicado for four days before leaving to take over the Union Springs gas station.

“My understanding is that these are not Cayuga Nation citizens, but members of other tribes in the state and some Cayugas from Canada, who have no standing in the United States,’’ said French. “I have asked law enforcement to evict them and arrest them for trespassing, since they are not authorized to be there by either side involved in the leadership dispute.”

“People are tired of this lawless activity, which is not sanctioned by either side. They don’t say why they are doing this. Police should ask them who they are and take action,” he said.

French’s office issued a written statement Friday from Clint Halftown and two others involved in the governing of the tribe, Timothy Twoguns and Gary Wheeler.

They said a group of individuals, some carrying makeshift weapons, seized the Cayuga Nation’s cigarette manufacturing facility in Seneca Falls. They rejected reports that the action was part of the Cayuga Nation’s ongoing leadership dispute.

“That is inaccurate. The action was not authorized or directed by the Unity Council and is certainly not by the existing Cayuga Nation Council,’’ they said.

They said after leaving the cigarette plant on Wednesday the group “mounted a violent takeover” of the Union Springs store.

“They overpowered the Nation’s security personnel, kicked a security guard in the ribs, physically sent him to the hospital, physically assaulted a cashier, physically assaulted the Nation’s legal counsel and stole property from third-party vendors who the Nation does business [with],’’ it stated. “The violent takeover of the Union Springs facility also has nothing to do with the Cayuga Nation leadership dispute. The overwhelming majority of individuals occupying the facility are not even Cayuga Nation citizens.”

The statement said more than 60 percent of Cayuga Nation citizens have signed formal statements of support for the six-person Council, including Halftown, and rejection of the Unity Council that is trying to assert itself as the legitimate governing body.

“We are confident that with modest assistance from law enforcement, the individuals who have seized the Union Springs facility would leave peacefully, just as they left the cigarette facility,’’ the statement continued. “Refusing to intervene, by contrast, sends the message that anyone can seize Indian-owned property at will and is a further recipe for further violence in Cayuga County.”

Also Friday, Cayuga member Justin Bennett, the Turtle Clan representative to the Unity Council, informed the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs of the Turtle Clan’s secession from the Unity Council.

Bennett has been actively involved in the Unity Council’s effort to oust Halftown from his leadership position, arguing the Unity Council was the only properly selected governing body of the tribe.

But the recent takeover of the tribe’s cigarette plant and now the Union Springs gas station and convenience store has led Bennett — along with fellow Turtle Clan representatives to the Unity Council Brenda Bennett and Samuel Campbell — to secede.

“A letter was sent to Bruce Maytubby, Acting Regional Director of the Eastern Regional Office of the BIA, indicating the Turtle Clan can no longer participate with the Unity Council due to the recent events that have taken place in Seneca and Cayuga counties,’’ Bennett said.

The letter also indicates the Turtle Clan’s desire to take a position of neutrality in the leadership dispute. As a result, this renders the Unity Council inoperable, he wrote.

Bennett said some members of the Unity Council have chosen to take action outside of the principal of consensus that is called for in the Great Law of Peace.

“The events of September 14 and 17 and the commitment to support those actions by members of the Unity Council are an example of the absence of consensus,’’ Bennett wrote.

He acknowledged that a decision on the leadership dispute is before the Regional BIA director’s desk. He said while the Turtle Clan disagrees with the Halftown administration, they also say the Unity Council should also not be determined to be the tribal government of the Cayuga Nation “at this particular time.’’

“We believe we have to give secession and neutrality an opportunity for both factions to peacefully consider coming together,’’ Bennett said, adding this will cease when a viable form of government can be established to serve the Nation “and preserve the peace.’’

He said a properly constituted and operational Unity Council should be the rightful government for the Nation rather than the Halftown faction.

But without the Turtle Clan, neither side can be determined to be the rightful government of the Nation at this time.

French agreed with Bennett regarding the Unity Council now being defunct without the Turtle Clan.
Posted by: Sam the Sham

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/21/14 09:07 AM

when it suits their purposes, the land is "sovereign" and "white man's law" does not apply. Now, when they aren't getting their way with their own members, they want local police to step in.

If New York State law can't be enforced for any other reason (taxes, lawsuits, safety codes, gambling, etc.), there's no basis for state or local police to enforce trespassing laws either.

Halftown and French made this bed. Now they can lie in it.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/21/14 06:51 PM

“They overpowered the Nation’s security personnel, kicked a security guard in the ribs, physically sent him to the hospital, physically assaulted a cashier, physically assaulted the Nation’s legal counsel and stole property from third-party vendors who the Nation does business [with],’’ it stated. “The violent takeover of the Union Springs facility also has nothing to do with the Cayuga Nation leadership dispute. The overwhelming majority of individuals occupying the facility are not even Cayuga Nation citizens.”

Anyone assaulted can press charges against anyone who assaults them. That, in itself, has NOTHING to do with the land.

It’s almost humorous to hear Clint whine that those taking over are not even Cayuga tribal members. A few years back he maintained his strength by hiring a non-member security firm to defend himself against his own members. I think they may have been Seneca.

Yet the police said, at the cigarette factory, they were all factions of Cayuga and all had a right to be on their own property. So nobody was arrested for trespassing.

I guess each faction is going to have to brand their members so they can be distinguished from non-members.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/21/14 06:53 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140918/OPINION/140919530/2013/OPINION
OUR VIEW [Note: newspapers are HIGHLY influenced by advertising dollars]

The Oneida County Board of Legislators has little choice but to yank county contracts with the towns of Vernon and Verona for various work projects. And County Executive Anthony Picente is spot-on in reasoning why.
Sep. 18, 2014

The Oneida County Board of Legislators has little choice but to yank county contracts with the towns of Vernon and Verona for various work projects. And County Executive Anthony Picente is spot-on in reasoning why.

“How do you do business with someone who is suing you?” Picente asked.
[Note: Picente saw nothing wrong with entering into agreements with the tribe which was suing the county for just trying to enforce the laws. But he sees everything wrong with doing business with municipalities which have lawsuits against the county for cutting a deal to evade the law.]

Last week the legislators voted on road ditching contracts it has with many of its towns, but failed to renew them with Vernon and Verona, due to pending litigation the two towns have against the county.

Oneida County signed an agreement with the Oneida Nation last year, which guarantees the county a portion of the Nation’s slot machine revenue. But several months later, Vernon and Verona filed suit against the county — along with New York state and Madison County — claiming that Cuomo exceeded his authority by giving the Nation exclusive gaming rights across a swath of Central New York.

[Note: I honestly have not read the lawsuits and know this newspaper may likely be giving only the tribal interpretation as fed by their lackey Picente, but the Governor DOES have that authority plus the ONLY way a state can make a tribe make payments to a state, by federal law, is to give an exclusivity zone buffer.]

The ditching contracts — they ensure the sides of roads are clean and safe — are for just a few thousand dollars. But larger contracts, like plowing, could be affected, too.

Verona Supervisor Owen Waller says the county is being punitive. That’s ridiculous. If somebody’s painting your house and decides to sue you, you don’t hire him to paint your garage.

The agreement with the Oneida Nation was put in place to end many years of costly litigation. The lawsuits filed by the two towns only continue litigation, which is not only costing Verona and Vernon town taxpayers to pursue, but all Oneida County taxpayers to defend. Revenue that could be benefitting all county taxpayers is simply being wasted on more litigation.

The agreement with the Oneidas went into effect last spring, and the county already has received a share of the revenue. Picente has created sharing agreements with some communities where the Nation owns land (but not Vernon and Verona because of the lawsuits) and will be releasing more of those plans in a few weeks when he unveils his 2015 budget.

Democratic Minority Leader Frank Tallarino, D-Rome, claims the contract change isn’t cost effective, but he has nothing on which to base that. Since Oneida County hasn’t picked up the duties previously done by the two towns, costs are not known. Picente says the county can do the work for the same amount it was costing by contract — or perhaps even less.

That’s something county leaders will need to watch. In the meantime, all parties should work to resolve this matter as amicably and quickly as possible because as it stands, it’s really a lose-lose situation for everybody.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/21/14 06:55 PM

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20140921/NEWS/140919353
Lawsuit fallout? Vernon-Verona vs. Picente
The supervisors of Vernon and Verona have some harsh words for Oneida County Executive Anthony Picente and other county officials.
Elizabeth Cooper
Sep. 21, 2014

The supervisors of Vernon and Verona have some harsh words for Oneida County Executive Anthony Picente and other county officials.

“Childish,” said Vernon Supervisor Myron Thurston.

Acting out of “spite, pure spite,” said Verona Supervisor Owen Waller.

The supervisors were speaking about projects the county has opted not to work on with the municipalities in light of the towns’ lawsuit against the 2013 agreement between the Oneida Indian Nation, New York state, and Oneida and Madison counties.

It’s not just that the county has opted not to renew long-standing agreements with Vernon and Verona for ditch maintenance service on county roads that pass through those towns. Nor is it that, as expected, the county won’t be contracting with them for plowing snow on those same roads.

Each town has had other projects that the supervisors say haven’t been treated as they would have been before the suit.

* In Verona, the county did not allow the town to cut into a county-owned road for a sewer project, even though the town would have repaved the road after the work was done and no county dollars would have been spent.

* In Vernon, town officials say they applied for county grants to help fix a bridge damaged by flooding, but their inquiries about the result of the application were ignored.

“I am not going to call them names,” Picente said of Thurston and Waller. “We are not going to enter any new agreements with them. Yes, it’s related to the lawsuit.”

Under the agreement with the Oneida Indian Nation, the counties and state are not allowed to help fund ongoing lawsuits against the Nation, either directly or indirectly. The agreement also gives Oneida County a share of slot machine revenue from the Nation’s Turning Stone Resort Casino, which is expected to reach about $12.5 million a year.

Picente said Vernon’s bridge grant was rejected because “it didn’t make the cut” as county Soil and Water officials sifted through applications for a share of the $500,000 funding pool for flood repairs.

Thurston said he tried to reach not only Picente, but also Board of Legislators Chairman Gerald Fiorini of Rome and Republican Majority Leader George Joseph over the summer.

“We have not heard a word from any of the three of them,” Thurston said. “They just thumb their noses at us and ignore us.”

Picente said he is unaware of calls to his office from Thurston. Joseph said he had been copied on Thurston’s letter and had not believed he was expected to respond. Fiorini remembered getting the letter, but said it had slipped his mind and he failed to follow up.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/28/14 05:42 AM

By DAVID L. SHAW dshaw@fltimes.com | 0 comments

UNION SPRINGS — The takeover and shutdown of the Cayuga Indian Nation’s LakeSide Trading convenience store and gas station moves into its 12th day today.

About a dozen Native Americans, said to be mostly non-Cayugas, forcibly took over and shut down the business Sept. 17 after abandoning their takeover of the tribe’s Great Swamp Enterprise cigarette plant on Ovid Street in Seneca Falls.

The plant was taken over by force Sept. 14.

During both takeovers, there has been no communication with Cayuga Indian Nation leaders, police or the public about the reasons for or goals of the takeovers.

On Friday, Cayuga Nation Council member and Heron Clan representative Karl Hill issued a statement.

“The Council and Clan Mothers of the Cayuga Nation are calling for a peaceful end to the current crisis,’’ Hill said.

“The Council is working diligently with local counties, villages, towns, law enforcement and the Bureau of Indian Affairs to resolve the current situation without violence,’’ Hill said.

The faction that Hill belongs to is in opposition to the current federally recognized Cayuga Indian Nation leader, Clint Halftown. The two sides are claiming to be legitimate leaders of the tribe, with a decision pending by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

The group occupying the store is opposed to Halftown, but the Unity Council disavows authorizing or supporting their actions.

Hill said they are concerned about the safety of the occupants, who have reported surveillance, threats and intimidation from armed security forces hired by Halftown.

“The protesters are unarmed and committed to expressing their opposition to Halftown non-violently,’’ he said.

Hill’s statement contained strong criticism of Halftown’s tactics and leadership style. They accuse him of not working for the good of the people, retaliation, failing to provide basic services, pursuing gambling in violation of Cayuga law and not acting by consensus with the Council.

“The Council of the Cayuga Nation is working hard to fulfill our responsibilities as the legitimate leaders of the Cayuga Nation on our homeland and to rectify the wrongs that have occurred,’’ Hill said.

“We will continue to meet with Cayuga and Seneca County officials to repair the damage that Halftown has inflicted on our people and the region,’’ he added.

He said the Council is providing services to its people, including housing, employment, transportation, home repairs, cultural programs, scholarships and business ventures.

“We continue to do all these things through the current crisis, using the good mind, and will continue to do so in the future. It is our responsibility,’’ Hill concluded.

There is no ongoing police presence at the Union Springs location.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 09/29/14 06:36 AM

http://auburnpub.com/news/opinion/editor...c7d0c543fe.html

Our view: BIA has failed Cayuga Nation, local communities


September 28, 2014 6:30 am • The Citizen Editorial Board

Imagine if in 2000, during the presidential election results dispute, a lower court judge in the process had said something like this: "I find that George Bush is elected president, but since the other side is appealing that decision, we'll keep everything status quo until reaching a final decision. And that should take us ... about three years."

Then imagine three years later, the upper-level court saying "after looking all of this over, we find that the judge didn't really have the authority to decide the outcome, but that doesn't mean we're taking any sides one way or the other. Go figure it out yourselves and let us know what you come up with."

That preposterous scenario is essentially what played out in the bureaucracy of the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs regarding the leadership dispute within the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York. Such inaction and deflection played out between a 2011 BIA regional director ruling that removed Clint Halftown as federal representative for the tribe and a January 2014 decision by an appeals panel tossing out that finding.

That utter failure of its mission to the tribe by the BIA is a big part of what resulted in the business property standoffs between Halftown supporters and Unity Council backers in the spring in Seneca Falls and Union Springs. In the midst of that crisis, both sides of the dispute found one clear thing upon which they agreed: the need for a quick BIA determination.

In an email sent May 5 to the BIA, the Unity Council said the following: "We believe it is imperative that the Bureau of Indian Affairs take action to recognize the Unity Council as the legitimate government of the Cayuga Nation. The refusal of former leaders and employees of the Nation to accept their removal should not hamper the Nation’s progress in moving forward for the benefit of its citizens."

Around the same time, a lobbyist hired by Halftown, Dan Crane, met with BIA officials and followed up with a May 6 email that included this excerpt: "We don't think BIA should be dragged into this litigation and issuing a statement affirming Clint's position would go a long way in stopping the dissidents from exploiting any perceived ambiguities or using them to justify their self-help. ... Can you tell me where you are in the process and when a decision will be made regarding issuing such a statement? ... Sorry to be repetitious, but it bears repeating: Time is of the essence."

The BIA declined to find in favor of either side, instead inviting parties to send more paperwork their way to argue whether such a determination is needed, and if so, what the determination should be.

And that took us through the rest of the spring and all of summer to the past couple of weeks, when new standoffs have taken place. Local and state police resources have been needed to maintain peace, and area businesses and communities — not to mention the tribe itself — have been financially impacted.

It's well overdue that this federal agency make a determination.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/06/14 10:04 PM

http://www.stargazette.com/story/insidebets/2014/10/06/lago-impact-still-debated/16801169/
Inside Bets: Dialogue over Lago's impact continues

In a back-and-forth battle of letters and written statements between the leaders of two counties that just won't seem to end, a resolution could be on the horizon – maybe.

On Friday, Oneida County Executive Anthony Picente Jr. addressed a letter to Robert Hayssen, chairman of the Seneca County Board of Supervisors, inviting him to meet to discuss shared goals that "serve all communities in Central New York."

[Note: Picente has ALWAYS worked for the tribe. He lies and has always worked against open competition and free enterprise.]

Last week, Picente Jr. sent a letter to the Gaming Facility Location Board, expressing his opposition to the proposed Lago Resort & Casino, a $425 million facility planned for Tyre, a town of about 960 in Seneca County.

Primarily, Picente Jr. said a Seneca County casino would threaten the success of Turning Stone Resort Casino, a Verona facility owned and operated by the Oneida Indian Nation. Turning Stone is about 70 miles east of the proposed Lago site.

In response Hayssen issued a fiery statement, claiming that his "friends in Oneida County have apparently been drinking heavy doses of Turning Stone Kool-Aid."

In his recent letter to Hayssen, Picente Jr. once again expressed his concern that Lago would cannibalize existing gambling facilities, including Turning Stone. For example, he wrote, look at Atlantic City.

This year, four of the 12 Atlantic City casinos closed. While it cost $2.4 billion to build Atlantic City's Revel casino and hotel, the property was recently sold at a bankruptcy auction for just $110 million.

"The way to prevent that disaster from being replicated here in Central New York is to make sure that the gaming expansion honors the intent of the enabling legislation, to create jobs in distinct and separate upstate regions," Picente Jr. wrote. "The intent was not to take jobs and development from one region and shift it to another. That is what the Tyre location will do."

On Saturday, Hayssen responded to Picente Jr.'s letter with a statement of his own.

Hayssen called on Picente Jr. to join him in creating an I-90 Casino Corridor Association, using casinos to help market upstate tourism from the Capital region through the Mohawk Valley, Central New York and the Finger Lakes region.

[Note: I applaud Hayseen's tactfulness. I would have told Pissant that I supported those who paid property taxes & collected and remitted state & local sales & excise taxes and not those who oppressed open competition and cut deals to evade the laws. ]

"The day after Lago Resort & Casino (a destination resort casino) and a new Capital Region casino are selected by the New York State Gaming Commission, I would like to convene elected officials, business leaders and others to join with the two new casino operators and Turning Stone and create a new association – the I-90 Casino Corridor Association," Hayssen said in the statement.

While there are three bidders in the Eastern Southern Tier region – Lago is competing against Tioga Downs and Traditions Resort & Casino – the Capital region has four bidders.

The closest Capital region bidder to Turning Stone is Howe Caverns Resort & Casino, about 80 miles away.

There are also nine bidders in the Catskills/Hudson Valley.

New York state can issue up to four casino licenses in the three upstate regions. No region can get more than two licenses.
Follow Jon Harris on Twitter @PSBJonHarris.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/07/14 08:01 AM

Quote:
On Friday, Oneida County Executive Anthony Picente Jr. addressed a letter to Robert Hayssen, chairman of the Seneca County Board of Supervisors, inviting him to meet to discuss shared goals that "serve all communities in Central New York."

Last week, Picente Jr. sent a letter to the Gaming Facility Location Board, expressing his opposition to the proposed Lago Resort & Casino, a $425 million facility planned for Tyre, a town of about 960 in Seneca County.

Primarily, Picente Jr. said a Seneca County casino would threaten the success of Turning Stone Resort Casino, a Verona facility owned and operated by the Oneida Indian Nation.


hey picente did you send a letter to keep halbritter from getting 25,000 acres of 'trust land'?

hey picente will you share all the revenue that halbritter has gained on this operations for the past 30 years?

picente you just ain't right...
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/19/14 02:01 PM

FingerLakes1.com
9/19/14 @ 12:15 pm

The unrest between factions inside the Cayuga Indian Nation again boiled over on Saturday night with incidents at Cayuga Indian properties in both Seneca Falls and Union Springs.

In Seneca Falls, at the Indian owned Cayuga Corner produce stand at the intersection of Route 89 and Bayard Street Extension, Town of Seneca Falls Police, Seneca County Sheriff's Deputies, New York State Police, NYS Park Police, and DEC Police were all at the site to keep order when Cayuga Indian Nation members attempted to block the entrance to the business.

While the fruit and vegetable stand are closed for the season, Cayuga Indians have been selling cigarettes at the location. Apparently, the sale of cigarettes is being run by a faction inside the Cayuga Nation that is not controlling operation of the Lakeside Trading gas station and convenience store that is about a quarter of a mile south on Route 89.

Meanwhile, at the Lakeside Trading location in Union Springs, extensive law enforcement resources were on site in response to a reported break-in late Saturday evening. Photos from the Union Springs incident are below:
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/20/14 11:38 AM

Posted: Monday, October 20, 2014

By DAVID L. SHAW dshaw@fltimes.com

UNION SPRINGS — Friday marked a full month since a group of Native Americans forcibly took over the Cayuga Indian Nation’s LakeSide Trading convenience store, gas station and car wash facility in Union Springs.

The situation had been quiet in recent weeks ... until this weekend, when separate incidents on Saturday and Sunday resulted in the arrests of seven people.

On Saturday night, there was a reported break-in at the convenience store in Union Springs. By 4 p.m. Sunday, things escalated to the point where arrests were made.

Calls to state police requesting further details about those arrests had not been returned when the Times went to press this morning.

In addition, there was a confrontation between the rival tribal factions Sunday night at the Cayuga Corners Produce Stand at Route 89 and East Bayard Street Extension in Seneca Falls. Seneca Falls Police Chief Stuart Peenstra said the produce stand, closed for the season, is under the control of the Clint Halftown faction.

On Saturday, that group placed a trailer on the property and started to sell Cayuga and Seneca brand cigarettes.

“We received a call of a disturbance around 4:48 p.m. Saturday,” Peenstra reported. “The Unity Council faction came down and blocked the roads in an effort to stop the sale of cigarettes at that site.”

Peenstra added that after 1 1/2 hours of negotiations, there was an agreement to stop selling cigarettes from that location the rest of the day, after which the Unity Council members left.

“There was no damage and no physical confrontations or arrests,” Peenstra said.

Peenstra said the cigarette trailer was reopened Sunday and Monday without incident.

The Union Springs property is surrounded by 6-foot-high sections of metal fencing. A large trailer and a cattle transport trailer block the entrance off Route 90.

On Friday, a person wearing a purple security T-shirt said no one was inside the store and had not been for several weeks. He acknowledged that there have been discussions involving rival Cayuga Indian Nation factions, their lawyers, local law enforcement officials and the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Those involved in the takeover were said to be Canadian Cayugas and members of other tribes sympathetic to the Unity Council, the group trying to oust current leader Halftown from power.

The security guard made a phone call to ask if anyone would talk. He was told to say if there was a statement, it would be made public.

The Union Springs business was under the control of Halftown. Down the road a bit, the tribe’s gaming hall was open for business, with about 50 cars in the parking lot.

The Unity Council and its supporters, led by Chief Samuel George, operate the Seneca Falls businesses on Route 89. They have remained open.

The group that took over the Union Springs facility had forcibly occupied the tribe’s Great Swamp Enterprise cigarette plant on Ovid Street in Seneca Falls for three days before leaving to take over the Union Springs businesses Sept. 17.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/20/14 07:40 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2...on_springs.html

UNION SPRINGS, N.Y. -- State troopers charged seven men Sunday at the Cayuga Nation-owned Lakeside Gas Station on route 90 in Union Springs.

At 12:15 p.m., troopers and Cayuga County sheriff's deputies responded to a report of disorderly conduct at the gas station and car wash, where Cayuga factions have been in conflict for over a month.

Several of the men caused damage to a vehicle. Others were found to be illegally in possession of drugs or weapons.

The following men were charged:

Bradley Halftown, 32, of Irving: Third-degree criminal possession of a weapon. Held at the Cayuga County Jail on $10,000 cash bail or $20,000 bond.

Randy M. Jimerson, 30, of Niagara Falls: Unlawful possession of marijuana. Released on an appearance ticket. Police did not provide a booking photo of Jimerson.

Daren Kettle, 27, of Seneca Falls: Fourth-degree criminal possession of a weapon and unlawful possession of marijuana. Held at the Cayuga County Jail on $500 cash bail or $1,000 bond.

darrenkittle.JPGDarren KittleProvided Photo

Eric Lindgren, 37, of Salamanca: Fourth-degree criminal mischief. Held at the Cayuga County Jail on $500 cash bail or $1,000 bond.

John F McLaughlin, 42, of Salamanca: Second-degree harassment and disorderly conduct. Held at the Cayuga County Jail on $500 cash or $1,000 bond. Also charged with second-degree assault on a Salamanca Police Department warrant. No booking photo of McLaughlin was provided.

ericlingren(1).JPGEric LingrenProvided Photo

Dustin Parker, 27, of Seneca Falls: Fourth-degree criminal mischief. Held at the Cayuga County Jail on $500 cash bail or $1,000 bond.

Paul Waltz, 23, of Seneca Falls: Fourth-degree criminal mischief. Held at the Cayuga County Jail on $500 cash bail or $1,000 bond.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/23/14 12:34 PM


Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Sac & Fox Nation:

Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Sac & Fox Nation, 508 U.S. 114 (1993), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that absent explicit congressional direction to the contrary, it must be presumed that a State does not have jurisdiction to tax tribal members who live and work in Indian country, whether the particular territory consists of a formal or informal reservation, allotted lands, or dependent Indian communities.

The Sac and Fox Nation is an Indian (Native American) tribe that governs itself under the Indian Self-Determination Act and imposes taxes based on that authority. The State of Oklahoma sought to impose income and motor vehicle taxes on tribal members. The tribe brought suit to prevent the state from imposing those taxes.

Both the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court held that Oklahoma, without a clear authorization from Congress, was prohibited from imposing taxes on tribal members in Indian country. This case, together with several other cases, are known as the "Oklahoma tax cases" in Native American case law.

Background

History
The Sac and Fox Nation is an Indian tribe originally from the Great Lakes area. Following a series of treaties with the United States, in 1867 they moved to the Sac and Fox reservation of 480,000 acres (190,000 ha) in Indian Territory (in what is now Pottawatomie County in the State of Oklahoma). In 1887, Congress passed the Dawes Act which broke up the reservation and allotted land to the tribal members. In implementing this law, the United States entered into another treaty with the tribe in 1891, in which the tribe retained 800 acres (320 ha) as a tribal headquarters and tribal members were allotted 160 acres (65 ha) of land from the former reservation.

The Sac and Fox Nation governs itself under the authority of the Indian Self-Determination Act and has its own tax commission. The tribe imposes a tax on earnings of any person working within tribal jurisdiction, regardless of whether that person is a tribal member. The tribe also provides for a motor vehicle tax and registration of any vehicle that are owned by a tribal member and garaged within tribal jurisdiction. The State of Oklahoma, through the Oklahoma Tax Commission, also administers income[9] and motor vehicle taxes. The state considers that all income earned in the state is taxable, including on tribal land, and issues tax assessments against those who are delinquent.

Oklahoma contends that anyone within the state had to register their vehicles with the state, while the Sac and Fox Nation required tribal members residing in tribal jurisdiction to register the vehicle with the tribe. The state viewed those members to be delinquent in their vehicle taxes, but made no effort to collect until the vehicle was sold to a new owner. At that time, Oklahoma would require that the delinquent taxes and penalties be paid in order to register the vehicle.

Lower Courts

The Sac and Fox Nation then filed a lawsuit against the Oklahoma Tax Commission in U.S. District Court seeking a permanent injunction prohibiting the state from taxing income earned within tribal jurisdiction or of those who reside within the tribe's jurisdiction, and from vehicle taxes on vehicles that were lawfully registered with the tribe. Both the Sac and Fox Nation and Oklahoma made motions for summary judgment and the district court, without determining reservation boundaries, held that while the state could collect income tax on non-tribal members, they could not collect income taxes from tribal members employed by the tribe on trust land. The district court also held that the state could not collect vehicle taxes for periods that the vehicle was properly registered with the tribe. Both sides appealed to the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals.

The Tenth Circuit Court affirmed the decision of the district court. First the court noted that the reservation boundaries were not relevant to the case, the issue instead being tribal immunity from state jurisdiction. The court noted the prior Supreme Court decision in Okla. Tax Comm'n v. Citizen Band, Potawatomi Indian Tribe of Okla. and stated that "It appears as though the State of Oklahoma persists in fighting a battle it has already lost." Since Oklahoman could provide no Congressional authority for collecting taxes from Sac and Fox tribal members it was clear that the state had exceeded its authority. On the income tax for non-tribal employees, the Sac and Fox Nation asserted that the Commerce Clause and treaty language granted it exclusive taxing authority on tribal land. The appellate court was not persuaded and ruled that the state could impose an income tax on non-tribal members.

On the issue of tribal motor vehicle taxes and registration, the Tenth Circuit Court did not make a distinction between tribal and non-tribal members. The court held that the tribe could require the registration of vehicles on tribal land, regardless of whether the owner was a tribal member or not. The court noted that both Moe v. Salish and Kootenai Tribes and Washington v. Confederated Tribes of the Colville Indian Reservation prohibit such state taxation on tribal members. The state could enforce its vehicle tax on non-tribal members.
Both parties appealed to the Supreme Court, which, after noting a Wisconsin Supreme Court decision in the same area, granted certiorari and agreed to hear the case.

Opinion of the Court

Arguments
David Allen Miley argued the case for Oklahoma. Edwin Kneedler argued the case for the United States as amicus curiae on behalf of the tribe, with Solicitor General Ken Starr. G. William Rice argued the case for the Sac and Fox Nation. Amicus curiae briefs in support of Oklahoma were filed by Arizona, Minnesota, North Dakota and Wisconsin. Briefs in support of the tribe were filed by Assiniboine and Sioux Tribes of the Fort Peck Indian Reservation, Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribes of Oklahoma, Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma and Navajo Nation.
The state argued that the case law cited by the Tenth Circuit only dealt with established Indian reservations and that the appellate court erred since the Sac and Fox reservation had been disestablished in the 1890s. The Tax Commission's position was that there were no more reservations in Oklahoma. Oklahoma stated that without determining reservation boundaries, if any, the lower court would be unable to properly apply tribal immunity. The state also argued that the vehicle tax and registration fees were more akin to a sales tax and a use fee than an excise tax.

Opinion
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor delivered the opinion of a unanimous court. O'Connor stated that Oklahoma's argument that a tribal member must live on a reservation to be exempt from state taxes was incorrect. All that is required is that the member live in "Indian country", which Congress has defined to "include formal and informal reservations, dependent Indian communities, and Indian allotments, whether restricted or held in trust by the United States." O'Connor noted that the Tenth Circuit should have determined the residence of the tribal members as inside or outside of Indian country, not if they were within the reservation. She noted that in Potawatomi case, Oklahoma made exactly the same argument which was also rejected by the court.

O'Connor also rejected the state's argument that the motor vehicle tax was not an excise tax and that the registration fee was a use fee. She stated that the tax strongly resembled the taxes prohibited by Colville and Moe, and noted that if the registration fee was a use fee, then non-residents of Oklahoma would not be exempt. The court upheld the decision of the Tenth Circuit Court.

Subsequent Developments

This case, together with two other involving the Oklahoma Tax Commission have defined tribal sovereignty in a clearer manner. The case has been cited in numerous lower court opinions, as well as the Supreme Courts own opinions, as limiting the ability of state governments to act in Indian country. Sac and Fox, together with Potawatomi and Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Chickasaw Nation, have become known as the "Oklahoma tax cases". The decision is also unique in that it uses a federal criminal jurisdiction statute as the basis for civil jurisdiction.

-Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Sac & Fox Nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/24/14 08:47 AM

http://www.fairfieldsuntimes.com/opinion/article_ab3ef688-5aba-11e4-8d03-1701a7077171.html
The Dung in America’s Elections.
An excellent article on tribal influence. Rather lengthy article.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/25/14 02:20 PM

Picente (Republican) Endorses Cuomo (Democrat)

It is stunning that our Republican County Executive has publicly endorsed Democratic Governor Andrew Cuomo for Reelection. This is particularly disturbing when one examines Cuomo’s accomplishments here in the Mohawk Valley over the past four years:

Picente is so very proud to endorse a Governor who has done the following:

Forced the closure of Oneida Correctional Facility with a loss or displacement of nearly 500 jobs and was promised 10 million in still missing economic development cash;

Downsized Mohawk Valley Psychiatric Center with a loss of nearly 300 jobs;

Caused the layoff of several hundred employees at Remington Arms with the passage of the NYS SAFE Act and many more layoffs expected as they move operations to the South for less taxes and less regulation and a friendly manufacturing climate (Under Cuomo, NY now ranked dead last);

Cuomo has increased the burdensome regulations placed on local governments and schools that have caused our local taxes to increase ahead of national averages. Oneida County is now the highest taxed County in New York State based on property tax rates (nearly double the rates in Cuomo Republican challenger Rob Astorino’s home County of Westchester) and sales tax (still highest in state at 8.75%, in spite of Picente’s praise of Nano and Oneida Deal).

Forced a deal with the Oneida Indian Nation to circumvent the payment of a Billion dollars in back taxes owed to state and local governments eviscerating forever hard fought gains made after years of litigation wherein the US Supreme Court ruled that the Oneida Indian Nation (“OIN”) must pay its fair share of all taxes like any other business;

Halted litigation by the state in order to allow OIN to move forward with taking thousands of acres of land in Oneida and Madison Counties off the tax rolls (After US Supreme Court ruled that there is no land claim) that will cause the tax obligations of the remaining residents to increase exponentially due to the loss of tax revenue to the local governments and schools;

Has caused NYS to lead the country in population shift away from NY with over 400,000 leaving the state in just four years of Cuomo’s term.

It seems to me that our County Executive is under some grand illusion that this Governor really cares about US and the rest of upstate New York. As a true opportunist, he has decided it is better to support a NYC political operative with Presidential aspirations than to represent the upstate Republicans who elected him to office. It is a sad day for Oneida County and All of New York.

The one remaining question to be asked is, “who paid for that ad?”

David R.Townsend, Jr
Member, NYS Assembly (Retired)
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/25/14 03:00 PM

http://www.fltimes.com/news/article_7865e10a-5479-11e4-9488-6f43046be405.html
State ponies up $2.5M for tribe’s unpaid taxes
Posted by: Teonan

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/27/14 02:14 PM


Congratulations Tsilhqot’in Nation!


Canada Aboriginals score huge win in land title court case


B.C. Justice Minister Suzanne Anton said the decision provided “additional certainty around processes and tests that are applied to the relationship between the province and Aboriginal peoples.


Positive News/Justice
Posted September 2014


OTTAWA –The Supreme Court of Canada has granted a declaration of Aboriginal title to the Tsilhqot’in over 1,087 square miles of territory in a historic ruling handed down on June 26.

This is the first time the high court has ever granted a declaration of Aboriginal title to a First Nations people. The ruling also acknowledges indigenous nations can claim occupancy and control over vast swaths of land beyond specific settlement sites, provides more clarity on Aboriginal title and sets out the parameters for government “incursion” into land under Aboriginal title.

The ruling also hands a final victory to the Tsilhqot’in Nation—which encompasses six communities with a population of about 3,000 people throughout British Columbia—in a long-running battle, including blockades, over logging permits in their claimed territory.

“I would allow the appeal and grant a declaration of Aboriginal title over the area at issue, as requested by the Tsilhqot’in,” said the unanimous ruling, written by Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin. “I further declare that British Columbia breached its duty to consult owed to the Tsilhqot’in through its land-use planning and forestry authorization.”

British Columbia and Ottawa both opposed the Tsilhqot’in claim to title.
The Supreme Court blasted the British Columbia Court of Appeal, which had overturned a lower court ruling on what territory the Tsilhqot’in could claim under Aboriginal title.

The high court found the B.C. Court of Appeal’s definition of occupancy too narrow.

“There is no suggestion in the jurisprudence or scholarship that Aboriginal title is confined to specific village sites or farms, as the Court of Appeal held,” said the ruling. “Rather, a culturally sensitive approach suggests that regular use of territories for hunting, fishing, trapping and foraging is “sufficient” use to ground Aboriginal title.”
The high court said that Aboriginal title could be declared over territory “over which the group exercised effective control at the time of assertion of European sovereignty.”


Tsilhqot’in Nation Tribal Chair Joe Alphonse called the ruling “amazing” and said it marked the beginning of a “new Canada.”


http://www.positivenewsus.org/canada-aboriginals.html
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 10/31/14 10:01 PM

http://www.thestate.com/2014/10/31/3780469_group-argues-redskins-lawsuit.html?rh=1
A federal judge seems to think Native Americans offended by the Washington Redskins team name are properly being sued by the NFL franchise.

Judge Gerald Bruce Lee suggested during a hearing Friday that it would be unprecedented to dismiss the team's lawsuit against five Native Americans who complained about the name to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

A trademark office board decided in June to cancel some of the Redskins' trademarks, citing federal regulations against protecting words and images that are disparaging or offensive.

The team could have challenged the ruling in appellate court in Washington, but sought help instead in a venue that gives it more options, by going to a trial court to sue the Native Americans who complained in the first place.

The team has used the Redskins name since 1933, and has asked the judge to reverse the trademark board's removal of protections of six trademarks the team registered between 1967 and 1990. The team argues that the name is not offensive, and that canceling its trademarks would violate its free speech rights and take its property without compensation.

A lawyer for the Native Americans, Jesse Witten, argued that his clients should be left out of the dispute and that the lawsuit against them should be dismissed. But team attorney Robert Raskopf said Amanda Blackhorse and the other defendants belong in court because they're the ones who filed the petition.

The judge seemed to agree and said he would issue a written ruling at a later date.

The team's trademark protection remains in place while the issue makes its way through the court system, and the trademark board's ruling does not apply to the team's current logo, which includes an American Indian head in profile.

Activists have demanded for decades that the Redskins change their name, but the "Change the Mascot" campaign has heated up this election year. Politicians have weighed in on both sides, and the Oneida Indian Nation in New York is bankrolling a P.R. campaign, including radio ads that are playing in Minnesota this weekend before the team's game against the Vikings.

Team owner Dan Snyder says he'll never change the name. Just losing trademark protections under the current ruling could cost the team tens of millions of dollars per year.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 11/11/14 02:22 PM

There's all kinds of news articles declaring that Patchak case is done, lost - game over....that the Gun Lake Band has an Executive Order from Obama that has been approved by the House and Senate. That The Executive Branch and Congressional actions are the end of the story.

Not so. Briefs were filed on October 31st in Patchaks case in DC. The case will be heard after the first of the year, despite the information in the paragraph above. Patchaks attorneys are arguing: 1) the Carcieri ruling; 2) a Separation of Powers argument (Congress nor the Executive Branch may intrude upon active judicial cases); AND the Gun Lake Tribe has pursued placement of numerous other lands into federal trust, so THOSE lands are not caught up in his case, as the Gun Lake Band was not recognized until around 1992.

The tribe is claiming that it's been recognized since 1900...which begs the question, why would they pursue recognition again in 1992? The tribal and federal arguments are very feeble in this case, and David reports that his firm is squarely committed to take the case back up to the U.S. Supreme Court if/as necessary.

Note - Patchak sued to have federal trust land revert back to fee land. SCOTUS ruled that he had standing to do so. Before this case it was never even legal to revert tribal trust land back to fee land unless Congress itself did so.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 11/19/14 03:49 PM

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/turning_stone_announcement.html

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20141119/NEWS/141119389/0/SEARCH
I see the Oneida tribe continues to get free advertising under the guise of news by sending out press releases as it plans to open a shopping mall to drive out more taxpaying businesses while Madison County ponders raising their property taxes higher to make up for loses.

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-news/20141113/madison-county-plans-766-property-tax-increase

Madison County plans 7.66% property tax increase

According to Edick’s budget address, a portion of the property tax increase is a result of the settlement with the Nation. With properties owned by the Nation now considered tax exempt, the county has agreed to pay out one-time grants to local school districts in an attempt to lessen the impact. More than $805,000 will be dedicated to that next year, accounting for 2.46 percent of the proposed increase in the tax levy.

Another .59 percent or $194,053 of the tax levy is proposed to be built into the contingency fund for potential distribution to municipalities affected by the settlement because of now tax-exempt properties. The board has not decided yet whether or not it will allocate that money yet.

Even with a more than 7 percent tax rate increase, state-mandated services consume more money than will be raised by property taxes.


Assemblywoman Claudia calls Oneida Indian Nation development plan "irresponsible"

New Hartford â Today, Assemblywoman Claudia Tenney (R, CâNew Hartford) expressed her deep concern about the planned construction of a retail operation, on the land currently held by the Oneida Indian Nation (âOINâ). These lands are currently subject to legal action and are not eligible under federal or state law to host a tax free retail operation.

“I am deeply concerned by the action of the OIN’s CEO Ray Halbritter today who refuses to abide by our federal and state laws. This irresponsible planned development will devastate the tax base in our surrounding communities. Tax paying small businesses and thousands of jobs will be in peril, as business migrates to this ill-conceived tax haven. This unfair competition will erode our communityâs ability to invest in schools, roads and other infrastructure, as CEO Ray Halbritter refuses to pay taxes to cover these much needed services. Leaders across Central New York should stand up and protect our constituents and tax payers against flagrant disregard for our laws and our jobs,” said Tenney.


Press Release

For Immediate Release
Wednesday, November 19, 2014
Contact Oneida County Legislator Chad Davis

Utica, NY – Please be advised that I have the following comments concerning the Turning Stone Resort’s massive new retail complex that was announced today.

When the OIN enterprises and our key elected officials encourage the violation of State Tax Laws and promote jobs over the Constitution, with an unlevel playing field for some over others, it is a recipe for social, financial and tax base disaster down the road.

Because the OIN does not have to pay town, county or school taxes; and, they are going to keep the sales tax, they have an unprecedented license to cannibalize all kinds of conventional business volume here in Central New York as well as the public’s tax base.

It has been said that ‘the road to hell was paved with good intentions’ and that ‘a house divided against itself cannot stand’. This unparalleled affirmative action runs counter to fair and equitable ‘justifiable expectations’ doctrine handed down by the Supreme Court is the Sherrill Decision.

We cannot and should not balkanize CNY; what is being set-up is tantamount to establishing legalized off-shoring in our backyards. New York was recently ranked as having the second to last tax climate out of all 50 States; this will only make it worse!

Respectfully submitted,

D. Chad Davis
Oneida County Board of Legislators – 14th District
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Still More Tribal News - 12/08/14 09:44 AM

http://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2014/12/07/feds-warn-tribes-misusing-tax-dollars/20072775/
Feds warn tribes over misusing tax dollars

A top federal investigator says there's been a "glaring lack of accountability" over how the government tracks the financial aid it gives to Indian tribes, leading to instances where tax dollars are being embezzled or misused.

Gerald Roy, the special agent in charge for the Office of Inspector General of Health and Human Services in Kansas City, says the lack of federal oversight has made it easier for taxpayer money to be misused, and he said his investigators are working to change that.

The misuse of federal money means that disadvantaged Indians suffer, Roy said. Federal money goes to a host of different programs, including elder care, youth programs, diabetes care, energy assistance and others. But those programs can't provide services when their funding is looted.

"I want to send a message that those programs are off limits," Roy said. "They are put in place for some very at-risk populations."

Roy's territory comprises 14 federal judicial districts in 10 states, including the Dakotas and Montana.

His comments in an interview with the Argus Leader last week followed an alert that the Office of Inspector General sent to