Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case

Posted by: newsman38

Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 01:49 PM

Judge delays ruling on Indian tax case

A state Supreme Court decision on whether or not Cayuga and Seneca county law enforcement agencies legally raided two Cayuga Nation-owned businesses last week will not be released until next week.
Given the complexity and the volume of the information provided by representatives for the Cayuga and Seneca county district attorneys' and sheriffs' offices and the tribe's lawyers, Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher said on Wednesday that he would go over all of the information before making a decision.

The hearing focused on whether or not the Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls are on recognized reservations, and if the counties have a right to impose state cigarette excise tax laws on the businesses.

Both businesses were simultaneously raided by deputies on Nov. 25 after Fisher signed a warrant authorizing the search and seizure of any untaxed cigarettes and any related evidence. Nearly 3.5 million untaxed cigarettes were collected between the two stores.

Lawyers for the Cayuga Nation argued the search was illegal because there are no applicable tax laws to collect the money from the nation because it is on a reservation.

Representatives for the district attorneys' and sheriffs' offices argued that the stores were not on a recognized reservation and that there have always been laws requiring the collection of excise tax on purchases made between American Indians and state residents.

According to state laws, only sales between American Indians are tax exempt.

Both Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann agreed not to file felony tax evasion charges against the nation until after Fisher issues a decision.

B.J. Radford, the chief operating officer for the store in Cayuga County, said that the businesses have not restocked their cigarettes.

By: Nate Robson / The Citizen

Wednesday, December 3, 2008 2:38 PM EST
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: newsman38


Lawyers for the Cayuga Nation argued the search was illegal because there are no applicable tax laws to collect the money from the nation because it is on a reservation.




The Cayugas applied to have their lands taken into trust in April 2005 after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in "City of Sherrill vs. Oneida Indian Nation" that the Oneidas could not purchase land and unilaterally declare it tax free or sovereign from local control.

Originally Posted By: newsman38

Both Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann agreed not to file felony tax evasion charges against the nation until after Fisher issues a decision.


Halftown and Twogun have a week to enjoy their freedom.



.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 03:40 PM

i hope the Indians win ...


if the Indians close shop no one gets money ,but the Indians and the all workers will be able to collect unemployment and SS.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
i hope the Indians win ...


if the Indians close shop no one gets money ,but the Indians and the all workers will be able to collect unemployment and SS.


At least one gas station closed in Seneca Falls due to the Indians. It is likely to reopen if the illegal Indian operation is forced to close.
Posted by: Rigatoni

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
i hope the Indians win ...


if the Indians close shop no one gets money ,but the Indians and the all workers will be able to collect unemployment and SS.


At least one gas station closed in Seneca Falls due to the Indians. It is likely to reopen if the illegal Indian operation is forced to close.

If you mean J&T`s it can not reopen because the old tanks leaked and it is an environmental nightmare.All the old tanks and soil would have to be removed for that place to open again.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 09:10 PM

Reilley, NOBODY is asking or telling the Cayuga tribe to close their businesses or lay off their employees. That's what they've forced four other businesses to do since 2003.

The Cayuga tribe is free to purchase ALL the cigarettes in the WORLD and sell them to you or anyone else, JUST like any OTHER business providing they purchase cigs with tax stamps on. IF they had complied with the law in the first place, they wouldn't have had their illegal wares confiscated.

But YOU will have to pay the tax when you purchase them there.

If they close their business or lay off anyone it's ONLY because they WANT to.

Now REALLY Reilley, is your sympathy about the employees or is it for yourself at having to pay the tax?
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/03/08 10:35 PM

the employees, if i want to smoke I will pay tax, or have my hubby get them out of state
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 08:33 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
the employees, if i want to smoke I will pay tax, or have my hubby get them out of state


With the millions of dollars that the tribe has illegally pocketed over the years why not have the tribe help out their employees?


.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
the employees, if i want to smoke I will pay tax, or have my hubby get them out of state


If the Indians paid their just taxes, their employees would have jobs. The USA was founded on the principal that all men are created equal. That means the same rules apply to all Americans. That includes tax laws. The only thing I don't understand is why our leaders let this illegal operation go on for so long before taking action.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 12:04 PM

Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich . They will tell you how fair it is until they have no loop holes . Then they will scream.
We all know its unfair. Until the US Govn't (Wahington)makes it equal for all don't start with the little guy.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 08:08 PM

Letter to the editor:

Upstate Citizens for Equality extends a sincere thank you and appreciation to District Attorneys Richard Swinehart and Jon Budelmann and Sheriffs Jack Stenberg and David Gould for implementing a superbly coordinated uneventful raid.

It is evident that two Lakeside convenience stores were not remitting taxes on over 175,000 packs of cigarettes a week. That's a loss of $495,250 in taxes every week and it isn't even tourist season. That's close to twenty six million dollars a year.

Since 2003, four local tax paying convenience stores have gone out of business and another burned down that wouldn't rebuild because they can't compete with the state SELECTIVELY enforcing the law.

The state is acting no differently than the strong arm of a mob by ignoring tribal businesses and enforcing the laws on their competitors.

It is evident that the Governor's estimates of lost taxes are grossly underestimated. The State won the right to collect taxes on reservations from the U.S. Supreme Court in 1995. I fully do not understand why, even in retrospect of the riots, ALL people that break the law are not merely dealt with EQUALLY REGARDLESS of race.

Our Governors have outright refused to enforce the laws they swore to uphold. We are thankful that District Attorneys Swinehart and Budelmann aren't afraid to treat everyone equally under their jurisdiction.

Properties purchased by the Cayuga tribe are the same as anyone else's privately owned property. If they were a qualified reservation, the tribe would not have a trust application filed.
Posted by: Gio

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 08:16 PM

I do not understand why they have not shut them completely down. They still are breaking the law.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich . They will tell you how fair it is until they have no loop holes . Then they will scream.
We all know its unfair. Until the US Govn't (Wahington)makes it equal for all don't start with the little guy.





You steped in it now. How you been Reilly
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich . They will tell you how fair it is until they have no loop holes . Then they will scream.
We all know its unfair. Until the US Govn't (Wahington)makes it equal for all don't start with the little guy.





You steped in it now. How you been Reilly


Yeah I know , but sometimes I get sick of people blameing the Indians for what ever comes down the pike. We all know that what ever money collected if any WILL NOT BE USED to HELP the TAXPAYERS!

I have been good sworldt... how bout you ...
we should get together for coffee/tea ...
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich . They will tell you how fair it is until they have no loop holes . Then they will scream.
We all know its unfair. Until the US Govn't (Wahington)makes it equal for all don't start with the little guy.





You steped in it now. How you been Reilly


Yeah I know , but sometimes I get sick of people blameing the Indians for what ever comes down the pike. We all know that what ever money collected if any WILL NOT BE USED to HELP the TAXPAYERS!

I have been good sworldt... how bout you ...
we should get together for coffee/tea ...



I'm going to have to send you to the time out room. lmao

Seriously i do understand what your saying. Personaly as a tax payer of this county i wish all sides would come together and work out something that will benefit everyone and put this behind us. Other wise this mess will handed be down to our kids.
All because we couldn't settle our differances. OK UCE come get me.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/04/08 10:18 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich . They will tell you how fair it is until they have no loop holes . Then they will scream.
We all know its unfair. Until the US Govn't (Wahington)makes it equal for all don't start with the little guy.





You steped in it now. How you been Reilly


Yeah I know , but sometimes I get sick of people blameing the Indians for what ever comes down the pike. We all know that what ever money collected if any WILL NOT BE USED to HELP the TAXPAYERS!

I have been good sworldt... how bout you ...
we should get together for coffee/tea ...



I'm going to have to send you to the time out room. lmao

Seriously i do understand what your saying. Personaly as a tax payer of this county i wish all sides would come together and work out something that will benefit everyone and put this behind us. Other wise this mess will handed be down to our kids.
All because we couldn't settle our differances. OK UCE come get me.


I agree with you sworldt,but I don't see that in the near future
it will always be unequal.
I think it will be handed down to our great grand kids..
after what you just wrote ... I will see you in the time out room also! lol
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:52 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
... Personaly as a tax payer of this county i wish all sides would come together and work out something that will benefit everyone and put this behind us...


Find that reservation yet?
Paid 8 times and still want to be above the laws?

;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:54 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley



if the Indians close shop no one gets money ,but the Indians and the all workers will be able to collect unemployment and SS.


How will the indians be able to collect unemployment and SS if they are sovereign or on a reservation?


.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 07:46 AM

because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS


And why would they take all the goodies out if this is sovereign Indian land? Are the part of the USA or not? They can't have it both ways!
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 09:17 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
We all know that what ever money collected if any WILL NOT BE USED to HELP the TAXPAYERS!



And just what do you think the state will do with this money collected? Have a bonfire? Of course it will help the taxpayers.

Suppose I suddenly discover I have some Indian blood in me and stop paying my taxes. Somebody else is going to have to pay more taxes, are they not?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 09:19 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich.


Are you talking about the small number of rich Indians making big bucks off of this no-pay tax scam while the rest of the indians live in poverty?
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:25 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS


Forget it reilley they won't listen. They only understand what they want to. The cops raid the indians today,but whos next any group or corporation who is not paying their full share of sales tax. Maybe the cops will start arresting workers of Goulds pumps seems they are avoiding sales tax. How about wal-mart they retain portions of their sales tax as well. There are alot more who don't pay the full sales tax these are just a few.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich.


Are you talking about the small number of rich Indians making big bucks off of this no-pay tax scam while the rest of the indians live in poverty?


Or maybe the Corps. recieving a $800 Billion bail out.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS


Forget it reilley they won't listen. They only understand what they want to. The cops raid the indians today,but whos next any group or corporation who is not paying their full share of sales tax. Maybe the cops will start arresting workers of Goulds pumps seems they are avoiding sales tax. How about wal-mart they retain portions of their sales tax as well. There are alot more who don't pay the full sales tax these are just a few.


Goulds or Wal-Mart are not paying sales tax? That is news to me. Please explain.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich.


Are you talking about the small number of rich Indians making big bucks off of this no-pay tax scam while the rest of the indians live in poverty?


Or maybe the Corps. recieving a $800 Billion bail out.


Like it or not, that was a legal action by the US Congress and signed by the president. Indians not paying sales tax is an illegal action.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS


Forget it reilley they won't listen. They only understand what they want to. The cops raid the indians today,but whos next any group or corporation who is not paying their full share of sales tax. Maybe the cops will start arresting workers of Goulds pumps seems they are avoiding sales tax. How about wal-mart they retain portions of their sales tax as well. There are alot more who don't pay the full sales tax these are just a few.


Goulds or Wal-Mart are not paying sales tax? That is news to me. Please explain.


Goulds are attempting to buy equipment through a third party to avoid paying sales tax the article is in the news.
Wal-Mart as well as others are allowed to collect tax from u and retain a portion for themselves.
How else can i help you and doesn't this hurt the tax payers.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich.


Are you talking about the small number of rich Indians making big bucks off of this no-pay tax scam while the rest of the indians live in poverty?


Or maybe the Corps. recieving a $800 Billion bail out.


Like it or not, that was a legal action by the US Congress and signed by the president. Indians not paying sales tax is an illegal action.


Wasn't the state suppose to provide coupons to the tribes for collection of taxes and was that ever done?( no )
Wasn't there a court order in place NOT to attempt collection from the tribes till Paterson negotiated this issue with the tribes.
So who is in the right. I am not a judge, but i do realize this whole issue is not as clear cut as some would like us to believe.
My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS


Forget it reilley they won't listen. They only understand what they want to. The cops raid the indians today,but whos next any group or corporation who is not paying their full share of sales tax. Maybe the cops will start arresting workers of Goulds pumps seems they are avoiding sales tax. How about wal-mart they retain portions of their sales tax as well. There are alot more who don't pay the full sales tax these are just a few.


Goulds or Wal-Mart are not paying sales tax? That is news to me. Please explain.


Goulds are attempting to buy equipment through a third party to avoid paying sales tax the article is in the news.
Wal-Mart as well as others are allowed to collect tax from u and retain a portion for themselves.
How else can i help you and doesn't this hurt the tax payers.


It has been in the news? I have never heard of either action. Can you post such articles from the "news" on here?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
Trump,
Nothing in America is equal. That is why justice is blind and always will be . Just ask the rich.


Are you talking about the small number of rich Indians making big bucks off of this no-pay tax scam while the rest of the indians live in poverty?


Or maybe the Corps. recieving a $800 Billion bail out.


Like it or not, that was a legal action by the US Congress and signed by the president. Indians not paying sales tax is an illegal action.


Wasn't the state suppose to provide coupons to the tribes for collection of taxes and was that ever done?( no )
Wasn't there a court order in place NOT to attempt collection from the tribes till Paterson negotiated this issue with the tribes.
So who is in the right. I am not a judge, but i do realize this whole issue is not as clear cut as some would like us to believe.
My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.


The first I have heard about the coupon concept was in the news yesterday. I don't understand the purpose of the coupon. A court order not to attempt collection until Paterson is done negotiating? I have never heard that.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 11:56 AM

By the way trump in case u care. I have absolutely NO interest in the Cayuga Nation in any way.I don't smoke and i don' drive from Auburn to buy gas nor do i have any relatives enrolled in the tribe. In case u were wondering.
Now if you want to put a stop to ALL special interest groups, individuals, getting tax breaks so EVERYONE including Religous tax shelters pay the same let me know i maybe interested.
Posted by: grinch

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 12:01 PM

It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By: grinch
It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?







You danced around the post and what it said. However Wal-Mart is not the only retailer and it was in the news appr. 1 month ago. You can go look if you want.
Whether or not the two District Attorneys were correct or not they may have pushed the courts into a ruling on not only taxation but trust as well. It may or may not be what everyone wants,but time will tell. Are u prepared to accept the court ruling as law or will you want to change it if its not in your favor?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
By the way trump in case u care. I have absolutely NO interest in the Cayuga Nation in any way.I don't smoke and i don' drive from Auburn to buy gas nor do i have any relatives enrolled in the tribe. In case u were wondering.
Now if you want to put a stop to ALL special interest groups, individuals, getting tax breaks so EVERYONE including Religous tax shelters pay the same let me know i maybe interested.


I am not a big fan of any tax breaks or bailouts, etc. But the bottom line is that all of the situations you mentioned here were legally approved by some level of our government. The Indian situation is very different is that is an illegal action. I am not happy that it has taken our elected leaders so long to take action on this situation. Why that is so baffles me.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: grinch
It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?



You danced around the post and what it said. However Wal-Mart is not the only retailer and it was in the news appr. 1 month ago. You can go look if you want.


I am not going to go look for something a month old that I doubt exists or you mis-interpreted the article. Since you know all about it why don't you find it and post it on here?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
... Are u prepared to accept the court ruling as law or will you want to change it if its not in your favor?


It is the Cayugas that refuse to accept the court ruling known as Sherrill. The little town that stood up to the tribe and the tribes lost.



.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Wasn't the state suppose to provide coupons to the tribes for collection of taxes and was that ever done?( no )
Wasn't there a court order in place NOT to attempt collection from the tribes till Paterson negotiated this issue with the tribes.
So who is in the right. I am not a judge, but i do realize this whole issue is not as clear cut as some would like us to believe.
My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.


This store is not on indian land. Read the Sherrill decision.
"U & I have to pay"
It appears that we are already paying if these two stores fail to pay over $26 million in cig taxes each year not including gas taxes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
because if they get paychecks with all the goodies taken out they can ..even if they don't they can GET SS



sounds sovereign to me.


NOT!

Is China sovereign?
Do their people get SS from the US government?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
By the way trump in case u care. I have absolutely NO interest in the Cayuga Nation in any way.I don't smoke and i don' drive from Auburn to buy gas nor do i have any relatives enrolled in the tribe. In case u were wondering.


But sworldt was pushing for an indian casino in Auburn.
More lost tax money.............................


Where is Okla?



.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: grinch
It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?



You danced around the post and what it said. However Wal-Mart is not the only retailer and it was in the news appr. 1 month ago. You can go look if you want.


I am not going to go look for something a month old that I doubt exists or you mis-interpreted the article. Since you know all about it why don't you find it and post it on here?


Whats wrong afraid you might be wrong. I don't care i have nothing to prove to nobody. This is my opinion don't be so lazy and do your own work.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Gio
I do not understand why they have not shut them completely down. They still are breaking the law.


To give the tribe time to calm down before they lose.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
By the way trump in case u care. I have absolutely NO interest in the Cayuga Nation in any way.I don't smoke and i don' drive from Auburn to buy gas nor do i have any relatives enrolled in the tribe. In case u were wondering.


But sworldt was pushing for an indian casino in Auburn.
More lost tax money.............................


Where is Okla?



.


BZ if your going to tell a story get it straight. Seneca - Cayugas not Cayuga Nation. As you already know ALL TAXES were to be paid along with MILLIONS to the county and local GOV. thousands of jobs. But your right who needs it we are doing so great here. What was i thinking. I'm so glad you UCE nuts help stop it.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Letter to the editor:

Upstate Citizens for Equality extends a sincere thank you and appreciation to District Attorneys Richard Swinehart and Jon Budelmann and Sheriffs Jack Stenberg and David Gould for implementing a superbly coordinated uneventful raid.




You also deserve a sincere thank you for looking out for NY taxpayers. Paterson should take note.



.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: grinch
It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?



You danced around the post and what it said. However Wal-Mart is not the only retailer and it was in the news appr. 1 month ago. You can go look if you want.


I am not going to go look for something a month old that I doubt exists or you mis-interpreted the article. Since you know all about it why don't you find it and post it on here?


Whats wrong afraid you might be wrong. I don't care i have nothing to prove to nobody. This is my opinion don't be so lazy and do your own work.


Now it is not a fact that Wal-Mart withholds taxes but only your opinion? You are right about one thing. You can't prove nothing to nobody! LOL
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: grinch
It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?



You danced around the post and what it said. However Wal-Mart is not the only retailer and it was in the news appr. 1 month ago. You can go look if you want.


I am not going to go look for something a month old that I doubt exists or you mis-interpreted the article. Since you know all about it why don't you find it and post it on here?


Whats wrong afraid you might be wrong. I don't care i have nothing to prove to nobody. This is my opinion don't be so lazy and do your own work.


Now it is not a fact that Wal-Mart withholds taxes but only your opinion? You are right about one thing. You can't prove nothing to nobody! LOL


Nice try but as usual your a bit short. If i remember correctly they finding the state allows retailers to withold a certain percentage of sales tax. Problem now is it is mounting to millions. You find the article i have better things to do. bye bye
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: grinch
It is very clear the Cayuga do not have land in trust.
To proof that out they have been paying land taxes that come due on their land. The tribe has not exerted political control of land in this area for more than 200 years and repurchasing land does not reinstate that political control.

They are or should be treated as any other merchant who does not collect and remit sales and use tax.


The Cayuga could have applied for grants, tax abatements, Empire zone status etc just as Goulds and other merchants have done.

The Sherrill decision was clear and explicit, a tribe cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign. That is what the Cayuga attempted to do. The hearing the other day zeroed in on that question.

I question whether Walmart is allowed to keep sales tax money. I read that statement somewhere before.do you have a reference source that can confirm that?



You danced around the post and what it said. However Wal-Mart is not the only retailer and it was in the news appr. 1 month ago. You can go look if you want.


I am not going to go look for something a month old that I doubt exists or you mis-interpreted the article. Since you know all about it why don't you find it and post it on here?


Whats wrong afraid you might be wrong. I don't care i have nothing to prove to nobody. This is my opinion don't be so lazy and do your own work.


Now it is not a fact that Wal-Mart withholds taxes but only your opinion? You are right about one thing. You can't prove nothing to nobody! LOL


Nice try but as usual your a bit short. If i remember correctly they finding the state allows retailers to withold a certain percentage of sales tax. Problem now is it is mounting to millions. You find the article i have better things to do. bye bye


If you remember correctly? LOL Now that is funny. I say you don't remember correctly.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:28 PM

trump: does this mean i'm off your xmas list. I'm crushed. lmao
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: does this mean i'm off your xmas list. I'm crushed. lmao


What it means is that you throw out outlandish statements on here and expect me to bite by going on a wild goose chase. Better luck next time.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:31 PM

Your opinion your entitled to it. lol
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Your opinion your entitled to it. lol


Man you are so stupid you make HarleyBob look smart.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Your opinion your entitled to it. lol


Man you are so stupid you make HarleyBob look smart.


Don't you believe in the right to hold your own opinion. Name calling getting desperate are you. Don't worry i still love u
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Your opinion your entitled to it. lol


Man you are so stupid you make HarleyBob look smart.


Don't you believe in the right to hold your own opinion. Name calling getting desperate are you. Don't worry i still love u


I am getting not desperate but very frustrated with you. You mix opinion with fact. First you said that Wal-mart withheld taxes. That sounds like a fact that you know? Now you sound like it is your opinion? You are a waste of time.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Gio
I do not understand why they have not shut them completely down. They still are breaking the law.
The specific law of possession is the most clear cut violation to deal with and therefore the easiest to set precedent with. The tribe is claiming sovereignty over the lands they purchased on the open market. The STATE refuses to enforce the laws as applied to tribes. By leading off with a case that is clear cut, local law enforcement can proceed to have the courts rule that local jurisdiction applies. Once that ruling comes down, Lakeside will either have to comply with the same laws that apply to everyone else or they will be shut down.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Your opinion your entitled to it. lol


Man you are so stupid you make HarleyBob look smart.


Don't you believe in the right to hold your own opinion. Name calling getting desperate are you. Don't worry i still love u


I am getting not desperate but very frustrated with you. You mix opinion with fact. First you said that Wal-mart withheld taxes. That sounds like a fact that you know? Now you sound like it is your opinion? You are a waste of time.


It is fact however you tried to get me to chase an article for you.I'm not your lacky do your own research. you have a good night now. Don't get so upset life is too short.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 08:51 PM

sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.


Yea i know,but i believe in miracles. lol
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/05/08 10:28 PM

Hello Sworldt - I see you are posting under your old handle again. I recall you were caught a few years back using more than one. I see your buddy Dilliner in the Seneca-Cayuga tribe is in a pickle. Imagine that? The old chief didn't even understand the full aspects of tribal sovereign immunity. But that's what all tribal members deal with because they have no Constitutional rights.

As for all sides coming together or it being handed down to our kids? I'd ask what you've been smoking, but you don't smoke. Ahh, maybe it's flashbacks.

Yes Sworldt, we did all come together in June of 2005 and worked everything out. UCE had a celebration party. I guess you missed it. What's the matter? Didn't your team have a party?

Or did you mean "this mess" pertaining to the thread, which deals with criminal possession of cigarettes. There's nothing to come together on Sworldt. The Cayuga tribe is no different than any other criminal that tries to defend themselves in court.

You were ALWAYS great on predicting how the tribe was going to win the land claim, or predicting that the Seneca-Cayuga tribe was going to get their casino on in Aurelius, then Auburn, then Throop, then Rochester or the Cayuga tribe get a casino in the Catskills. Do you have any predictions on how Judge Fisher is going to rule?

No, this case will be done with all appeals exhausted in less than a year. UCE is not going to get you. I'm sorry that you still feel paranoid. We disagree, but I have nothing against you.

As to Walmart or any retail outlet keeping part of the sales tax, the state allows EVERY retail store to keep a percentage to cover the cost of bookkeeping and remitting the tax. The tribe could too if it complied with the law. There seems to be a lot in this world you don't know about. Yes, even Tallcot Bookshop kept a cut. Not only that, but the state has recently increased the allowance.

"Wasn't the state suppose to provide coupons to the tribes for collection of taxes and was that ever done?( no )"

This is not about the tribal members not being allowed to purchase tax free cigarettes. You're confused, as usual.

"Wasn't there a court order in place NOT to attempt collection from the tribes till Paterson negotiated this issue with the tribes."

There was a court order in place not to enforce the law that contained that provision. But the court order did not apply to the law in place previously nor would it apply to the possessions charge.

The laws regarding possession and tax collection are two different law. Furthermore, the Lakeside businesses are not on reservation lands, are under local jurisdiction, and have to comply with ALL laws. Even all tribal members have to pay the taxes on cigarettes there. Their only exclusion for not paying the taxes is on their own qualified reservations.

It's only clear if you actually read the law.

By the way - Patterson met with the Seneca and Oneida tribes today in Manhattan and all sides are claiming the meetings were productive. I'd be willing to BET that the tribes took a wake up call when the Cayuga got raided. I'll bet they make a deal. But I'll ALSO bet that the tribes won't comply with any deal they make. I can SEEEEEE the propaganda machines running now, how the tribes are saving New York State as the good neighbors they are. Choke.

From the Cayuga ruling: "We understand Sherrill to hold that equitable doctrines, such as laches, acquiescence, and impossibility, can, in appropriate circumstances, be applied to Indian land claims"

"The broadness of the Supreme Court's statements indicates to us that Sherrill's holding is not narrowly limited to claims identical to that brought by the Oneidas, seeking a revival of sovereignty, but rather, that these equitable defenses apply to "disruptive" Indian land claims more generally."

"We emphasize that plaintiffs' claim is and has always been one sounding in ejectment; plaintiffs have asserted a continuing right to immediate possession as the basis of all of their claims, and have always sought ejectment of the current landowners as their preferred form of relief."

"As noted above, in their complaint in this case the Cayugas seek "immediate possession" of the land in question and ejectment of the current residents. Indeed, the District Court noted early in the litigation that it was "clear" that the complaint "presents a possessory claim, basically in ejectment." Cayuga I, 565 F. Supp. at 1317

"Plaintiffs urge us to conclude that as a legal remedy, ejectment is not subject to equitable defenses."

"we see no reason why the equitable principles identified by the Supreme Court in Sherrill should not apply to this case."

CASE CLOSED. ALL SIDES HAVE COME TOGETHER.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.


Reilley, I am flabbergasted. If you have read all that has been posted about Indians not paying taxes and you still don't understand that we have to pay more taxes because the Indians don't pay taxes, then I guess you will never understand. I find that quite amazing.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

As to Walmart or any retail outlet keeping part of the sales tax, the state allows EVERY retail store to keep a percentage to cover the cost of bookkeeping and remitting the tax. The tribe could too if it complied with the law. There seems to be a lot in this world you don't know about. Yes, even Tallcot Bookshop kept a cut. Not only that, but the state has recently increased the allowance.


Is that what Sworldt is talking about? OMG. I know for a small business I am familiar with they keep 5% up to $200 maximum of the NY sales tax for doing all the paperwork. What a joke if that is what he is referring to! As you said, the Indians could get the same cut also IF they paid sales taxes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt


BZ if your going to tell a story get it straight. Seneca - Cayugas not Cayuga Nation.



Would that not be an indian casino in auburn?
You were willing to sell out Auburn for an out of state tribe with no claim to any NY land?



Originally Posted By: sworldt

As you already know ALL TAXES were to be paid along with MILLIONS to the county and local GOV. thousands of jobs. But your right who needs it we are doing so great here. What was i thinking. I'm so glad you UCE nuts help stop it.


Did the SC tribe ever submit that report that Sennett and Auburn asked for?


.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 10:19 AM

Hello Dick: I see you are still trying to put a twist on all your posts as usual.

As to my using a different handle i explained i was at the time up front and why. But go ahead and twist it.

As to the statement come get me that was meant in the forum as you just did. I knew i would get your attention.

You are right you and i don't agree i would prefer to see the tax payers making money instead of spending it. We been fighting this for 25 years and it will continue. Do you honestly believe it won't be handed to our kids. For someone who claims i make predictions you do yourself more than anyone else i know. As you did in your post.

As to Dilliner i have no idea what he is up to he lives in Oklahoma i don't as you know.

So tell me how many people has your little group just pi-- off. How many more neighbors will your group try to jail with your private war u got going.

As to a casino i did want economic development,but i never wanted it elsewhere just another one of your mental moments.

Ask yourself this Dick if you honestly are an expert on indian law,why are u still working for the town and not opening your own law firm.


heres a challenge try to make a post without spinning the truth.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 10:37 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

As to Walmart or any retail outlet keeping part of the sales tax, the state allows EVERY retail store to keep a percentage to cover the cost of bookkeeping and remitting the tax. The tribe could too if it complied with the law. There seems to be a lot in this world you don't know about. Yes, even Tallcot Bookshop kept a cut. Not only that, but the state has recently increased the allowance.


Is that what Sworldt is talking about? OMG. I know for a small business I am familiar with they keep 5% up to $200 maximum of the NY sales tax for doing all the paperwork. What a joke if that is what he is referring to! As you said, the Indians could get the same cut also IF they paid sales taxes.


look at who just woke up. Wal-Mart was named because is mounting MILLIONS with no cap.So your partly right.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

As to Walmart or any retail outlet keeping part of the sales tax, the state allows EVERY retail store to keep a percentage to cover the cost of bookkeeping and remitting the tax. The tribe could too if it complied with the law. There seems to be a lot in this world you don't know about. Yes, even Tallcot Bookshop kept a cut. Not only that, but the state has recently increased the allowance.


Is that what Sworldt is talking about? OMG. I know for a small business I am familiar with they keep 5% up to $200 maximum of the NY sales tax for doing all the paperwork. What a joke if that is what he is referring to! As you said, the Indians could get the same cut also IF they paid sales taxes.


look at who just woke up. Wal-Mart was named because is mounting MILLIONS with no cap.So your partly right.


What is mounting millions? What does that mean? Isn't that no good English? In New York state? I googled and found nothing so I still think you are full of baloney.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.


Don't be concerned about that. Be concerned about all of the legitmate buisnesses that were paying their fair share of taxes that Lakeside put out of busines by Lakeside undercutting them and not paying their fair share of taxes! How the heck hard is that to understand? \:\(
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 06:15 PM

Hello Sworldt:

Just as I thought, you're still having flashbacks. As I explained in my post, we all came together in June of 2005 and resolved the land claim by having SCOTUS rule on it. That ended the 25 years you refer to, as the claim was filed in 1980.

The trust applications and tax issues haven't been going on for 25 years.

Yes, Dilliner is still in Oklahoma, but I thought you'd keep up because during the 25 years war the Seneca-Cayuga tribe allowed you access to their tribal forum board. It's too bad I got censored from that. Seems those in control didn't like the truths being exposed to their members.

As for UCE's activities, we just keep gaining members. So I think we're doing something right.

Regarding my employment, I've thought about being an attorney. Several have suggested it. But that takes time and I'm close enough to retirement to ride it out.

In addition to that, grass roots movements can be more effective.

Besides, our UCE President is an attorney and we have Cornelius Murray, Esq. to represent us as well.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.


Reilley, I am flabbergasted. If you have read all that has been posted about Indians not paying taxes and you still don't understand that we have to pay more taxes because the Indians don't pay taxes, then I guess you will never understand. I find that quite amazing.

.......................
Oh believe me I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING that has been said on here.
I understand taxes and the government alot better than you think.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:32 PM

Oh and just to let you know trump... I paid $1.78 a gal in gas ...that was with TAXES! so see I have no problem paying taxes .......where they are due
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Hello Sworldt:

Just as I thought, you're still having flashbacks. As I explained in my post, we all came together in June of 2005 and resolved the land claim by having SCOTUS rule on it. That ended the 25 years you refer to, as the claim was filed in 1980.

The trust applications and tax issues haven't been going on for 25 years.

Yes, Dilliner is still in Oklahoma, but I thought you'd keep up because during the 25 years war the Seneca-Cayuga tribe allowed you access to their tribal forum board. It's too bad I got censored from that. Seems those in control didn't like the truths being exposed to their members.

As for UCE's activities, we just keep gaining members. So I think we're doing something right.

Regarding my employment, I've thought about being an attorney. Several have suggested it. But that takes time and I'm close enough to retirement to ride it out.

In addition to that, grass roots movements can be more effective.

Besides, our UCE President is an attorney and we have Cornelius Murray, Esq. to represent us as well.


Your funny Dick. Whenever i need a laugh i look for you.

Thanx for not letting me down.

No matter how you spin it it is still going on. Nothing is finalized or settled. So why don't we just wait and see what happens. Besides Dick in order to be an attorney you have to pass the bar and you can't B.S. your way through and i doubt your capable. I can see it now Dick Talcot Attorney of Bull S---.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.


Reilley, I am flabbergasted. If you have read all that has been posted about Indians not paying taxes and you still don't understand that we have to pay more taxes because the Indians don't pay taxes, then I guess you will never understand. I find that quite amazing.

.......................
Oh believe me I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING that has been said on here.
I understand taxes and the government alot better than you think.


Reilley do you think hooked on phonics would help the UCE nuts.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:53 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.


Don't be concerned about that. Be concerned about all of the legitmate buisnesses that were paying their fair share of taxes that Lakeside put out of busines by Lakeside undercutting them and not paying their fair share of taxes! How the heck hard is that to understand? \:\(


So you don't care if the tax payers get stuck with a huge law suit. How does it feel to be rich enough not to be concerned with money. Me i have been a blue collar worker and proud of it right up to my disability. As to the other business's i do believe it is called competition. The american Way. How many mom and pops did Wal-Mart put under.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 08:57 PM

Dick: All mighty Guru do you have a prediction on the Cayugas trust Application.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Oh and just to let you know trump... I paid $1.78 a gal in gas ...that was with TAXES! so see I have no problem paying taxes .......where they are due


reilley: Don't we already have a tax dept. in this state? Do you feel the tax payers need another wannabe tax collector?
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 09:09 PM

naw ... no tax collector needed from here ..no way.

hooked on phonics ,would they understand ... thats hard to say,
they only see how THE INDIANS have caused everything that comes along. Give the government some credit .... they have botched things for YEARS!
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
naw ... no tax collector needed from here ..no way.

hooked on phonics ,would they understand ... thats hard to say,
they only see how THE INDIANS have caused everything that comes along. Give the government some credit .... they have botched things for YEARS!


Well i guess they need someone to blame.

Wouldn't it be a laugh if it was found the UCE type groups were being paid by the non-indian Casino owners to help eliminate their competition.just a thought.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/06/08 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: reilley
naw ... no tax collector needed from here ..no way.

hooked on phonics ,would they understand ... thats hard to say,
they only see how THE INDIANS have caused everything that comes along. Give the government some credit .... they have botched things for YEARS!


Well i guess they need someone to blame.

Wouldn't it be a laugh if it was found the UCE type groups were being paid by the non-indian Casino owners to help eliminate their competition.just a thought.


OMG ... now that would be funny ... I wonder if thats where all their money is comming from?? \:o
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 12:47 AM

You can read my positions in the UCE lawsuit filed on page 1 and 2 and CERA's lawsuit filed on pages 4 and 5. I know this is over your head.

http://forums.fingerlakes1.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=904578&page=1&fpart=1

These ARE the explanations as to why trust lands will not be allowed here. I say this in anticipation of your asking the explanations to be explained because I know you can't understand anything that doesn't say what you want it to.

The Cayuga trust application approvals are being held up until after the feds test the waters. That's why they asked for arguments before the Second Circuit, which will be heard December 19th.

The feds may also wait until after SCOTUS rules on Rhode Island, which won't be until March or April.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:01 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.



LOL

But you do not mind losing over 30+ million of sales tax dollars per year from just these 2 smokeshops?


.

How much did Sherrill save us?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:07 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt


Wasn't the state suppose to provide coupons to the tribes for collection of taxes and was that ever done?( no )


Sworldt - can the tribe gain trust land if the property taxes are not paid in full?

can the tribe gain trust land if illegal activities are occuring on the land in question?

.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
... but I thought you'd keep up because during the 25 years war the Seneca-Cayuga tribe allowed you access to their tribal forum board...


Is that why sworldt has always sided with the tribes?

it is a disgrace that he has the american flag as his avatar.


.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Oh and just to let you know trump... I paid $1.78 a gal in gas ...that was with TAXES! so see I have no problem paying taxes .......where they are due


Where they are due? When would they not be due? Should taxes be collected by a business be based on who their ancestors were?

If the gas station was owned by a black person, should they not collect taxes because 100 years ago they were slaves?

If the gas station is owned by someone of Japanese origin should they not collect taxes because they were our enemies in WWII?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.


Reilley, I am flabbergasted. If you have read all that has been posted about Indians not paying taxes and you still don't understand that we have to pay more taxes because the Indians don't pay taxes, then I guess you will never understand. I find that quite amazing.

.......................
Oh believe me I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING that has been said on here.
I understand taxes and the government alot better than you think.


Your post above tells me you understand nothing. Have you ever taken a course in Economics? in high school or college? I don't see how you could of and believe what you do.

Suppose the Indians had a football team and played the Buffalo Bills. When the Indians scored a touchdown, they got 7 points. When the Bills got a touchdown, they got to keep 5 points and had to give 2 points to the government. Would that be fair? Of course not. You need a level playing field in football and in every business endeavor.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:32 AM

sworldt did you get any money from Spicer?


http://seneca-cayugatribeofoklahoma.org/blog/pgs/0607.htm



.


Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.


Don't be concerned about that. Be concerned about all of the legitmate buisnesses that were paying their fair share of taxes that Lakeside put out of busines by Lakeside undercutting them and not paying their fair share of taxes! How the heck hard is that to understand? \:\(


So you don't care if the tax payers get stuck with a huge law suit. How does it feel to be rich enough not to be concerned with money. Me i have been a blue collar worker and proud of it right up to my disability. As to the other business's i do believe it is called competition. The american Way. How many mom and pops did Wal-Mart put under.


I am not rich. A huge law suit that the Indians would win is laughable. In todays Rochester D&C paper, there is a letter on the editorial page by the staff of the paper about the raids. They say the state government should be collecting taxes from the Indians. Only a few radicals like you believe otherwise anymore.

Wal-Mart started as a mom and pop operation by Sam Walton in Arkansas. It grew big because it was good at providing a service the customer wanted and it followed all the rules of business and government. Maybe someday the government will have to break it up for being too big as the government broke up the phone company for being a monopoly.

The Indians, on the other hand, are attempting to grow by violating the rules we should all be livng under and they are putting numerous mom and pop operations out of business as they do it.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt

My main concern is this might come back and bite us all in the a-- in the form of a law suit. U & I will have to pay.
But you do not mind losing over 30+ million of sales tax dollars per year from just these 2 smokeshops?

Good one BZ! Evidently Sworldt thinks lawsuits cost over 30 million dollars a year.
Oh, and your other posts about the tribes owing a billion dollars is a little light - that's a billion dollars A YEAR.
The Cayuga Land Claim wasn't cheap, but the 25 year cost to to the state was about 3 million. Money well spent.
I'm glad Sworldt helped pay for it. LOL
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 11:51 AM

The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Do you believe everybody should pay the same with no excuses?
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Reilley you think i hit a nerve? Maybe there is some truth to the idea.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
sworldt did you get any money from Spicer?


http://seneca-cayugatribeofoklahoma.org/blog/pgs/0607.htm



.




I have answered this before,but understanding your a bit slow. I have NOT rec'd any money or promises from nobody. I am not the one with a TAX EXEMPT ORGANIZATION complaining about those who don't pay taxes. Your thinking of the UCE. What a joke.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Do you believe everybody should pay the same with no excuses?


I am not sure what you are driving at but off hand I can't think of any excuses, can you?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Reilley you think i hit a nerve? Maybe there is some truth to the idea.


I don't know what nerve you think you hit. I don't know what idea you are talking about?
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
... but I thought you'd keep up because during the 25 years war the Seneca-Cayuga tribe allowed you access to their tribal forum board...


Is that why sworldt has always sided with the tribes?

it is a disgrace that he has the american flag as his avatar.


.


I'll tell you what jerk. I fought for that flag and watched many of my friends blown to hell and gone for it. What have you contributed besides bullsh-- on this forum. The worst part about this is it took people like me to give YOU the right to speak your piece. So go ahead you have the right,but don't ever forget who helped protect that right for you.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Do you believe everybody should pay the same with no excuses?


I am not sure what you are driving at but off hand I can't think of any excuses, can you?


I agree as i said before. Give me a group that wants to end tax loop holes for EVERYONE EQUALLY and i might be intersted. Now tell the UCE. Have you read about the seneca land fill,goulds pumps and the list gos on.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Reilley you think i hit a nerve? Maybe there is some truth to the idea.


I don't know what nerve you think you hit. I don't know what idea you are talking about?


Talking about the UCE being paid by non indian casino owners.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Do you believe everybody should pay the same with no excuses?


I am not sure what you are driving at but off hand I can't think of any excuses, can you?


I agree as i said before. Give me a group that wants to end tax loop holes for EVERYONE EQUALLY and i might be intersted. Now tell the UCE. Have you read about the seneca land fill,goulds pumps and the list gos on.


I have already replied that I am not real happy about tax breaks and bailouts for Seneca Meadows, Goulds Pumps, etc but at least they were done by some level of government legally as opposed to the Indians simply breaking the law. Do you even read what I post? And if the Indians were not breaking the law UCE could go out of business because there would be no need for that organization any more.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Reilley you think i hit a nerve? Maybe there is some truth to the idea.


I don't know what nerve you think you hit. I don't know what idea you are talking about?


Talking about the UCE being paid by non indian casino owners.


I am not a fan of gambling. I think it causes a lot of problems for people who get addicted to it. I think there are entirely too many casinos already in this country
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Do you believe everybody should pay the same with no excuses?


I am not sure what you are driving at but off hand I can't think of any excuses, can you?


I agree as i said before. Give me a group that wants to end tax loop holes for EVERYONE EQUALLY and i might be intersted. Now tell the UCE. Have you read about the seneca land fill,goulds pumps and the list gos on.


I have already replied that I am not real happy about tax breaks and bailouts for Seneca Meadows, Goulds Pumps, etc but at least they were done by some level of government legally as opposed to the Indians simply breaking the law. Do you even read what I post? And if the Indians were not breaking the law UCE could go out of business because there would be no need for that organization any more.


That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: reilley
The Buffalo Bills ? ....you couldn't pick a better team?


I assume you understand that the other team is beside the point. In discussing the Indian situation, it is often said we need a level playing field. That is as true in business as in football. Either everybody pays taxes or nobody pays taxes. You should not pay or pay based on your ancestry. That is ridiculous.
That is damaging to our free enterprise system of capitalism.


Reilley you think i hit a nerve? Maybe there is some truth to the idea.


I don't know what nerve you think you hit. I don't know what idea you are talking about?


Talking about the UCE being paid by non indian casino owners.


I am not a fan of gambling. I think it causes a lot of problems for people who get addicted to it. I think there are entirely too many casinos already in this country


I also don't gamble. I tried it but found it boring.But i do believe this is a free country and it should be left to the individual to decide for them self. who are we to tell someone else how to live or whats good for them.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


I dont see the UCE as wanting to change the laws. They just want the laws enforced that already exist!

It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:28 PM

trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


No, I don't know any of this. I see UCE supporters on here saying the opposite of what you are saying. Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it? I find that very hard to believe. All I know for sure is that the Indians hurt other local businesses by not collecting sales taxes their competitors have to collect and that makes my blood boil.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


The state legally uses tax breaks as a temporary break for new businesses. The Indians want an illegal permanent tax break on taxes. If the Indians obeyed the law, UCE could go out of business, could it not?
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


No, I don't know any of this. I see UCE supporters on here saying the opposite of what you are saying. Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it? I find that very hard to believe. All I know for sure is that the Indians hurt other local businesses by not collecting sales taxes their competitors have to collect and that makes my blood boil.


If you really want to know about the court order reread the news articles concerning the county actions it was mentioned in them.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


The state legally uses tax breaks as a temporary break for new businesses. The Indians want an illegal permanent tax break on taxes. If the Indians obeyed the law, UCE could go out of business, could it not?


No they won't because they want indian's destroyed as they want the tribes to lose their rights.It all boils down to rights and i don't believe anybody has the right to remove another persons rights. No matter who they are.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


The state legally uses tax breaks as a temporary break for new businesses. The Indians want an illegal permanent tax break on taxes. If the Indians obeyed the law, UCE could go out of business, could it not?


No they won't because they want indian's destroyed as they want the tribes to lose their rights.It all boils down to rights and i don't believe anybody has the right to remove another persons rights. No matter who they are.


They want the Indians destroyed? Get serious. The Indians should have the same rights as the rest of us Americans citizens. I find it hard to believe that UCE wants anything different than that.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:02 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


No, I don't know any of this. I see UCE supporters on here saying the opposite of what you are saying. Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it? I find that very hard to believe. All I know for sure is that the Indians hurt other local businesses by not collecting sales taxes their competitors have to collect and that makes my blood boil.


If you really want to know about the court order reread the news articles concerning the county actions it was mentioned in them.


I don't see anything about a court order in here? Are you confused again?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/police_surround_lakeside_tradi.html

Here's the latest:: The district attorneys in Seneca County and Cayuga County say they believe all sales of untaxed cigarettes at the Cayuga Indian Nation-owned stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs are illegal.

Seneca County DA began Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County DA Jon Budelmann say the two stores are not on sovereign Indian land, or on reservations, so they must be treated as ordinary private businesses.

Swinehart said he based his reasoning on the Oneida Indians' case with the city of Sherill. In that case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Indian nations could not claim sovereignty on land they purchased. The two Cayuga stores are on purchased land.

Swinehart said Seneca sheriff's deputies seized 10,000 cartons of cigarettes from the Seneca Falls store today. Their taxable value is $275,000, he said.

The Lake Side Trading store on Route 90 in Union Springs remained closed early this afternoon, with yellow police tape strung across the entrance.

Cayuga Nation represenatives Clint Halftown and Tim Twoguns were inside the store.

"We're speechless," Twoguns said. He refered questions to the Cayuga County sheriff.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


The state legally uses tax breaks as a temporary break for new businesses. The Indians want an illegal permanent tax break on taxes. If the Indians obeyed the law, UCE could go out of business, could it not?


No they won't because they want indian's destroyed as they want the tribes to lose their rights.It all boils down to rights and i don't believe anybody has the right to remove another persons rights. No matter who they are.


They want the Indians destroyed? Get serious. The Indians should have the same rights as the rest of us Americans citizens. I find it hard to believe that UCE wants anything different than that.


So you don't care what rights were given the tribes by our federal goverment.You are now saying the tribes shouldn't be allowed to self goverment as promised them by the fed. gov..
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


No, I don't know any of this. I see UCE supporters on here saying the opposite of what you are saying. Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it? I find that very hard to believe. All I know for sure is that the Indians hurt other local businesses by not collecting sales taxes their competitors have to collect and that makes my blood boil.


If you really want to know about the court order reread the news articles concerning the county actions it was mentioned in them.


I don't see anything about a court order in here? Are you confused again?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/police_surround_lakeside_tradi.html

Here's the latest:: The district attorneys in Seneca County and Cayuga County say they believe all sales of untaxed cigarettes at the Cayuga Indian Nation-owned stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs are illegal.

Seneca County DA began Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County DA Jon Budelmann say the two stores are not on sovereign Indian land, or on reservations, so they must be treated as ordinary private businesses.

Swinehart said he based his reasoning on the Oneida Indians' case with the city of Sherill. In that case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Indian nations could not claim sovereignty on land they purchased. The two Cayuga stores are on purchased land.

Swinehart said Seneca sheriff's deputies seized 10,000 cartons of cigarettes from the Seneca Falls store today. Their taxable value is $275,000, he said.

The Lake Side Trading store on Route 90 in Union Springs remained closed early this afternoon, with yellow police tape strung across the entrance.

Cayuga Nation represenatives Clint Halftown and Tim Twoguns were inside the store.

"We're speechless," Twoguns said. He refered questions to the Cayuga County sheriff.



I didn't say the latest did i. No i didn't
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


The state legally uses tax breaks as a temporary break for new businesses. The Indians want an illegal permanent tax break on taxes. If the Indians obeyed the law, UCE could go out of business, could it not?


No they won't because they want indian's destroyed as they want the tribes to lose their rights.It all boils down to rights and i don't believe anybody has the right to remove another persons rights. No matter who they are.


They want the Indians destroyed? Get serious. The Indians should have the same rights as the rest of us Americans citizens. I find it hard to believe that UCE wants anything different than that.


So you don't care what rights were given the tribes by our federal goverment.You are now saying the tribes shouldn't be allowed to self goverment as promised them by the fed. gov..


The US has existed for over 200 years. In all this time, they haven't figured out to deal with the Indians? We are still trying to establish new reservations? That is ridiculous.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


No, I don't know any of this. I see UCE supporters on here saying the opposite of what you are saying. Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it? I find that very hard to believe. All I know for sure is that the Indians hurt other local businesses by not collecting sales taxes their competitors have to collect and that makes my blood boil.


If you really want to know about the court order reread the news articles concerning the county actions it was mentioned in them.


I don't see anything about a court order in here? Are you confused again?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/police_surround_lakeside_tradi.html

Here's the latest:: The district attorneys in Seneca County and Cayuga County say they believe all sales of untaxed cigarettes at the Cayuga Indian Nation-owned stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs are illegal.

Seneca County DA began Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County DA Jon Budelmann say the two stores are not on sovereign Indian land, or on reservations, so they must be treated as ordinary private businesses.

Swinehart said he based his reasoning on the Oneida Indians' case with the city of Sherill. In that case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Indian nations could not claim sovereignty on land they purchased. The two Cayuga stores are on purchased land.

Swinehart said Seneca sheriff's deputies seized 10,000 cartons of cigarettes from the Seneca Falls store today. Their taxable value is $275,000, he said.

The Lake Side Trading store on Route 90 in Union Springs remained closed early this afternoon, with yellow police tape strung across the entrance.

Cayuga Nation represenatives Clint Halftown and Tim Twoguns were inside the store.

"We're speechless," Twoguns said. He refered questions to the Cayuga County sheriff.



I didn't say the latest did i. No i didn't


Well, I dont' know where to find this "court order" you are talking about and I am not going to spend all night looking for it.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
trump: you might want to stand back and take a closer look at the UCE.


I don't know much about the UCE but I certainly agree with them that the Indians are taking a huge advantage of the rest of us tax paying citizens.


Our own goverment does that every day. The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's. The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes. Do you see anything wrong with this picture. Look do as you please,but don't be a sheep and follow a flock.Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


The state legally uses tax breaks as a temporary break for new businesses. The Indians want an illegal permanent tax break on taxes. If the Indians obeyed the law, UCE could go out of business, could it not?


No they won't because they want indian's destroyed as they want the tribes to lose their rights.It all boils down to rights and i don't believe anybody has the right to remove another persons rights. No matter who they are.


They want the Indians destroyed? Get serious. The Indians should have the same rights as the rest of us Americans citizens. I find it hard to believe that UCE wants anything different than that.


So you don't care what rights were given the tribes by our federal goverment.You are now saying the tribes shouldn't be allowed to self goverment as promised them by the fed. gov..


The US has existed for over 200 years. In all this time, they haven't figured out to deal with the Indians? We are still trying to establish new reservations? That is ridiculous.


There is nothing new about it. its always been here.Do you also realize it has only been withing 60 yrs. or so the tribes had the right to sue the goverment.Wer not talking events that happened 200 years ago.This is within my life time.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:17 PM

Trump: i don't normally do this,but even the UCE understands the tribes are under federal control:


Sovereignty
The fundamental issue is sovereignty. UCE adamantly opposes the establishment of an independent, sovereign Cayuga Indian nation within New York State. Nation refers to independent government, "possessing the power of absolute dominion over its territory and people." The U.S. government has restricted Indian tribes' governmental authority. There is no reference to absolute Indian sovereignty in the U.S. Constitution; the tribes are federally recognized as domestic dependent nations. Indian tribal reservations are federal lands held in trust by U.S. Government. The Supreme Court holds that Indians are U.S. citizens (who vote, receive social services, etc.), and members of an Indian tribe. http://www.upstate-citizens.org/sovereignty.htm

Even the UCE understands
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law. The UCE wants to change the laws.The local Gov. says the tribes are breaking the laws. So whos right. I'm no expert in indian law as they date back to beginning of this country. The UCE as they first started were a group of land owners locked out by their own goverment.When the Cayugas threatened them with eviction i sided with the UCE.But over the years they mutated from protecting their land to attacking the tribes. Thats when i said wait isn't there a better way to handle all this.About 4 years ago. So i stand saying instead of violating anyones rights lets try to end this through economic development together.The same that has been used many times in other places. The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.


It is not only the local government that says the tribes are breaking the law. It is also said by our local senators and assemblymen. The Rochester D&C editorial board said so today. I think the vast majority of people now agree the tribes are breaking the law. Yet higher levels of government refuse to act for some reason. I don't see the UCE wanting revenge and not peace. The tribes already owe the government a huge amount of money on back taxes that I am sure we will never collect. I don't see it as revenge to try and put illegal operations out of business. Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.


As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov..This whole issue is very complicated no matter what anybody tries to tell you.I see this from both sides and i do believe unless the people come together we won't see this come to an end.That is why i have attempted to bring the seneca cayugas and the local gov. together in the past,but it won't happen.


OH, I agree it is very complicated and I am not a legal person. But it sounds like the Indians lost a lot in the Sherill decision. And it sounds like the Indians won't get any trust land as long as they keep breaking laws like not collecting and paying sales taxes that they owe. For them to buy a gas station and then declare it a reservation and not taxable is absolute nonsense.


You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist. You also understand the Cayugas have a court order for the state not to attempt collection. Doesn't a court order make it legal?Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


No, I don't know any of this. I see UCE supporters on here saying the opposite of what you are saying. Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it? I find that very hard to believe. All I know for sure is that the Indians hurt other local businesses by not collecting sales taxes their competitors have to collect and that makes my blood boil.


If you really want to know about the court order reread the news articles concerning the county actions it was mentioned in them.


I don't see anything about a court order in here? Are you confused again?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/police_surround_lakeside_tradi.html

Here's the latest:: The district attorneys in Seneca County and Cayuga County say they believe all sales of untaxed cigarettes at the Cayuga Indian Nation-owned stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs are illegal.

Seneca County DA began Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County DA Jon Budelmann say the two stores are not on sovereign Indian land, or on reservations, so they must be treated as ordinary private businesses.

Swinehart said he based his reasoning on the Oneida Indians' case with the city of Sherill. In that case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Indian nations could not claim sovereignty on land they purchased. The two Cayuga stores are on purchased land.

Swinehart said Seneca sheriff's deputies seized 10,000 cartons of cigarettes from the Seneca Falls store today. Their taxable value is $275,000, he said.

The Lake Side Trading store on Route 90 in Union Springs remained closed early this afternoon, with yellow police tape strung across the entrance.

Cayuga Nation represenatives Clint Halftown and Tim Twoguns were inside the store.

"We're speechless," Twoguns said. He refered questions to the Cayuga County sheriff.



I didn't say the latest did i. No i didn't


Well, I dont' know where to find this "court order" you are talking about and I am not going to spend all night looking for it.



Here you go:

Cayuga Nation takes legal action after raidBy Nate Robson / The Citizen

Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:19 PM EST

After the Cayuga County Sheriff's Office raided two of its convenience stores for untaxed cigarettes last Tuesday, the Cayuga Nation will seek to have any pending felony tax evasion charges dismissed before they are filed on the grounds that the search warrant violated their sovereignty.
The tribe's attorney, Dan French, said his office will argue on Wednesday that a warrant obtained by the sheriffs' and district attorneys' offices in Cayuga and Seneca counties violated a state injunction that limited the enforcement of tax laws on American Indians, and that the Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls are part of a 64,000-acre reservation established in a treaty by President George Washington in the 1794.

The tribe, along with other Indian nations in New York, have claimed they are exempt from collecting sales and excise taxes on their property because their businesses are protected by their sovereign nation status.

The tribe will also argue that all of the evidence collected in the raid, which includes 1.5 million cigarettes, needs to be returned because the search was illegal.

“They are trying to apply a law that the state will not enforce, and there is a reason it's not being enforced,” French said. “And when (Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann) says there is no reservation, he is just flat wrong.”

But Budelmann said his office maintains the raid was legal and that the injunction applies to one small portion of the tax law that does not apply to the current situation.

“They are maintaining that we got the warrant under a section of the law that the state has an injunction on, but we did not even mention that part of the law when we got the search warrant,” Budelmann said. “They violated other sections of the tax law. We also don't believe those stores are on reservations.

“Maybe there use to be a reservation a long time ago, or there was a claim that there had been a reservation, but that claim is gone. There is no reservation there anymore; they bought that land on the market.”

Budelmann said the stores were raided after an investigation was conducted into the alleged sale of untaxed cigarettes. The investigation included surveillance and controlled purchases of untaxed cigarettes.

In paperwork filed with Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher, who signed the search warrant that was used last week, French also argues that the tribe should be allowed to resume selling cigarettes because the sales are used to fund health care and other social services within the reservation.

While Budelmann has warned the nation they could face additional tax evasion charges if they continue to sell untaxed cigarettes, French said his clients have not ruled out restocking their shelves.

“The law does not apply to the tribes and the state knows that, and that is why they did not help with this investigation,” French said. “The state told them that they were pursuing negotiations with us but they did it any way. The nation is examining all of their options, but as of now they have not restocked their cigarettes.”

Article:
http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2008/12/01/local_news/news03.txt
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/07/08 11:17 PM

The court order doesn't apply here and doesn't apply as Sworldt implies. As Buddleman explained in the article, there is no reservation here based on the rulings of Sherrill and Cayuga.

Trump, TRIBAL Indians do NOT have the same rights as the rest of us American citizens. Tribal GOVERNMENTS have super citizenship in that they can't be sued to be held accountable for their actions. The U.S. Constitution does not apply on tribal lands. The problem being is that it directly affects non-tribal citizens.

Sworldt does NOT want equality under the law. THAT's the difference.

If the Fourteenth Amendment applied to tribal lands, there wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Here's ONE example:

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/11/ninth-circuit-rules-indian-tribal.php

The Jurist - Legal News and Research November 16, 2008

Ninth Circuit rules Indian tribal immunity extends to profit-making businesses

Steve Czajkowski

The US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit on Friday ruled that tribal sovereign immunity applies to lawsuits brought in federal court dealing with the profit-making businesses of Indian tribes. In Cook v. Avi Casino Enterprises, Christopher Cook filed suit against Avi Casino Enterprises (ACE), a tribal corporation, and its employees after he was hit by a drunk driver.

The driver was an employee of the casino who had been served drinks at a function at the Avi Casino, located on the Fort Mojave reservation in Nevada.

Cook argued that public policy demands that tribal corporations operating in the economic mainstream should not receive the same immunity granted to Indian tribes themselves. The court rejected that argument, and concluded that immunity applied to the corporation and its employees:

Tribal sovereign immunity protects Indian tribes from suit absent express authorization by Congress or clear waiver by the tribe. This immunity applies to the tribe's commercial as well as governmental activities.

The final question is whether ACE's tribal immunity extends to two of its employees...We conclude that it does. We hold that tribal immunity protects tribal employees acting in their official capacity and within the scope of their authority.

Cook has sued Dodd and Purbaugh in their official capacity only, and thus the district court correctly dismissed them from this suit.

The court also found that despite diversity of citizenship between the parties, tribal sovereign immunity applies.

[DID YA GET THAT? ANY DRUNK TRIBAL MEMBER OR DRUNK TRIBAL EMPLOYEE HAS SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY FROM LAWSUIT EVEN AFTER THEY RUN YER BUTT DOWN. And Sworldt WANTS a tribal casino here.]
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt


I'll tell you what jerk. I fought for that flag and watched many of my friends blown to hell and gone for it. What have you contributed besides bullsh-- on this forum. The worst part about this is it took people like me to give YOU the right to speak your piece. So go ahead you have the right,but don't ever forget who helped protect that right for you.


And you are willing to give the land away?

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law.



Read the Sherrill decision.
Is that why the tribe wants trust on this so-called reservation?



Originally Posted By: sworldt
The UCE wants to change the laws.


What are you smoking?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
As you said at a state level. Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating.The same as NY State or any other state. The same if the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov ...



You have just proven that the raid was legal.

IF the cayugas ever get trust...


they do not have trust or a reservation so ALL NY LAWS APPLY----SALES TAXES DUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The smokeshop cannot operate without paying sales taxes.

Sworldt- you do know that the trust will not go thru if the tribe is conducting illegal activities on the land they are trying to put into trust.

aka selling illegal cigs and gas.............................


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
...Sherrill said the tribes can not regain control of their reservation land through the open market,but should apply for trust status to regain control as they have done.


You just proved that they do not have a reservation.
Keep running in circles.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt


No they won't because they want indian's destroyed as they want the tribes to lose their rights.It all boils down to rights and i don't believe anybody has the right to remove another persons rights. No matter who they are.



The Cayugas reservation is in Canada.
The Cayugas are trying to take away NY taxpaying citizens rights.

"casino shopping"



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

Here you go:

Cayuga Nation takes legal action after raidBy Nate Robson / The Citizen

Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:19 PM EST

After the Cayuga County Sheriff's Office raided two of its convenience stores for untaxed cigarettes last Tuesday, the Cayuga Nation will seek to have any pending felony tax evasion charges dismissed before they are filed on the grounds that the search warrant violated their sovereignty.
The tribe's attorney, Dan French, said his office will argue on Wednesday that a warrant obtained by the sheriffs' and district attorneys' offices in Cayuga and Seneca counties violated a state injunction that limited the enforcement of tax laws on American Indians, and that the Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls are part of a 64,000-acre reservation established in a treaty by President George Washington in the 1794.

The tribe, along with other Indian nations in New York, have claimed they are exempt from collecting sales and excise taxes on their property because their businesses are protected by their sovereign nation status.

The tribe will also argue that all of the evidence collected in the raid, which includes 1.5 million cigarettes, needs to be returned because the search was illegal.

“They are trying to apply a law that the state will not enforce, and there is a reason it's not being enforced,” French said. “And when (Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann) says there is no reservation, he is just flat wrong.”

But Budelmann said his office maintains the raid was legal and that the injunction applies to one small portion of the tax law that does not apply to the current situation.

“They are maintaining that we got the warrant under a section of the law that the state has an injunction on, but we did not even mention that part of the law when we got the search warrant,” Budelmann said. “They violated other sections of the tax law. We also don't believe those stores are on reservations.

“Maybe there use to be a reservation a long time ago, or there was a claim that there had been a reservation, but that claim is gone. There is no reservation there anymore; they bought that land on the market.”

Budelmann said the stores were raided after an investigation was conducted into the alleged sale of untaxed cigarettes. The investigation included surveillance and controlled purchases of untaxed cigarettes.

In paperwork filed with Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher, who signed the search warrant that was used last week, French also argues that the tribe should be allowed to resume selling cigarettes because the sales are used to fund health care and other social services within the reservation.

While Budelmann has warned the nation they could face additional tax evasion charges if they continue to sell untaxed cigarettes, French said his clients have not ruled out restocking their shelves.

“The law does not apply to the tribes and the state knows that, and that is why they did not help with this investigation,” French said. “The state told them that they were pursuing negotiations with us but they did it any way. The nation is examining all of their options, but as of now they have not restocked their cigarettes.”

Article:
http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2008/12/01/local_news/news03.txt

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Trump: i don't normally do this,but even the UCE understands the tribes are under federal control:


Sovereignty
The fundamental issue is sovereignty. UCE adamantly opposes the establishment of an independent, sovereign Cayuga Indian nation within New York State. Nation refers to independent government, "possessing the power of absolute dominion over its territory and people." The U.S. government has restricted Indian tribes' governmental authority. There is no reference to absolute Indian sovereignty in the U.S. Constitution; the tribes are federally recognized as domestic dependent nations. Indian tribal reservations are federal lands held in trust by U.S. Government . The Supreme Court holds that Indians are U.S. citizens (who vote, receive social services, etc.), and members of an Indian tribe. http://www.upstate-citizens.org/sovereignty.htm

Even the UCE understands





there is no cayuga reservation!

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
... Someplace on there forums someone posted a few days ago about the state taxation department putting out of business a bar in Syracuse for not paying their taxes. That is often done to businesses not paying their taxes. I don't see the Indians as any different.







State seizes downtown Syracuse bar for unpaid taxes
February 04, 2008 17:32PM


Syracuse, N.Y. -- The state Department of Taxation and Finance seized a bar/restaurant a block from Syracuse City Hall last week for not paying its taxes.

State tax agents walked into Kelly Coles Improper at 253 E. Water St. on Friday, changed the locks and seized the business for failing to pay the state $80,514 in sales taxes collected from customers and payroll taxes withheld from employees paychecks, the department said.

The bar, which is owned by Cole's Pub Co., remained closed Monday. A sign on the door said the property had been seized for nonpayment of taxes and is now in the possession of the State of New York.

Michael Bucci, speaking for the tax department, said the seizure was the state's last recourse to collect the taxes and followed letters, phone calls and visits to the bar by tax agents.

The department lists Kelly A. Cole as the corporate officer or owner of Coles Pub Co. Cole could not be reached for comment Monday.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:34 PM

sworldt-


The Cayuga tribe has probably illegally profited over $200 millions from the smokeshops from the sale of gas and cigarettes over the years.

Was their 64,000 acres worth $200 million dollars 200 years ago?

Thought that the government said that New York state OVERPAID the tribe by $7.5 million dollars for the land.



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 04:49 PM

Turning Stone to fall next?


No reservation either.............


http://www.wtvh.com/news/local/35683594.html





.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Turning Stone to fall next?


No reservation either.............


http://www.wtvh.com/news/local/35683594.html

I hope so. Sounds like a legislator is making good money off the indians:



I hope so. Sounds like a legislator is making good money off the indians:

"Hundreds of catering permits are granted each year for events at Turning Stone. About 90 percent of those are to the Beeches restaurant, which is co-owned by the husband of Assemblyman RoAnn Destito, D-Rome." Syracuse.com 12/7
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 08:46 PM

You got your panties in a bunch Dick. I.m only taking from your website and articles.Like this one.

County raid on Cayuga stores continues cigarette tax war
By Gale Courey Toensing

Story Published: Dec 5, 2008

Story Updated: Dec 4, 2008

AUBURN, N.Y. – A Cayuga Indian Nation attorney told a state Supreme Court judge Dec. 4 that a raid of two tribal convenience stores and confiscation of cigarettes by county law enforcement agents a week earlier violated both the tribe’s sovereignty and a state injunction against enforcing cigarette tax laws on American Indians.

Cayuga Nation attorney Dan French asked state Supreme Court Justice Kenneth Fisher to order the county to return the cigarettes, which he said were seized under unlawfully obtained search warrants. He also asked the court to declare that the tribe was not in violation of the state’s tax laws, and to prohibit county officials from saying they were.

Fisher said he needed time to consider the case before issuing an expedited decision next week. He will issue a summary judgment based on the evidence presented by the parties.

“I think out of deference to this judge and his willingness to move this case quickly, they’ve (the Cayugas) taken a forbearance policy, but that could change and they may resume sales, but I think for the current time they will forgo sales,” French said.

The case is the latest foray in the ongoing sovereignty battle over untaxed cigarette sales on tribal land in New York.

The nation was forced to stop selling cigarettes Nov. 25 after Seneca and Cayuga county sheriff’s deputies raided the tribe’s Lake Side Trading convenience stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls and seized 17,600 cartons of cigarettes.

County officials claimed the stores were violating state law by selling cigarettes without charging the required tax and owed $485,000 in state excise taxes. They claim that the stores are not on sovereign land.

The Cayugas and other Indian nations in New York say they are exempt from collecting sales and excise taxes because their businesses are protected by their sovereign nation status.

Cigarette sales to tribal members on reservations are not taxable by law. New York legislators have been trying for years to force tribal smoke shops to collect taxes on cigarettes sold to non-Indians, but the tribes say that as sovereign nations they are not obligated to act as tax collectors for the state. According to state law, non-tribal members who buy cigarettes on reservations are obligated to report and pay the taxes on those purchases.

Seneca County District Attorney Richard E, Swinehart and Cayuga County District Attorney Jon E. Budelman wrote to Robert L. Megna, the commissioner of the State Department of Taxation and Finance, in September that they were investigating the Cayugas’ “illegal sale and felony possession of untaxed cigarettes, gasoline and/or other products,” and seeking his assistance in the “appropriate enforcement actions that we expect will follow.”

Megna warned them of doing anything rash.

“As I am sure you are aware, Governor Paterson is currently engaged in discussions with New York’s Native American nations and tribes in an effort to resolve the many complex and important issues that have confounded multiple administrations for decades. Given these circumstance, we are constrained not to participate in your investigation,” Megna wrote on Oct. 1.

He told the county district attorneys that they were free to pursue their investigation.
“It is our hope, however, that you exercise care to avoid taking actions that might disrupt or undermine the Governor’s current global negotiations,” Megna wrote.

Dozens of people from both sides of the case gathered outside of the courtroom to protest.

Tribal supporters carried signs that said “Honor Indian treaties,” “200 years later and they are still stealing from the Indians,” “We are not tax collectors,” and the more obscure “Seneca County doesn’t like Indians, but they sure do love garbage.”

The anti-sovereignty protesters’ carried signs addressed to the governor that said “Don’t cut health care, collect the taxes” and “Enforce the law.”

Phillip Spellane, the attorney representing the counties, argued that the convenience stores are not located on sovereign land.

“Essentially after 200 years of holding land not by the Cayuga Nation, the land can’t automatically revert into a reservation status simply by the purchase of the land by the Cayuga Nation,” he said.

French said the stores lie within a 64,000-acre reservation established by treaty with President George Washington in 1794 and are located within the tribe’s land claim, thus making it Indian land.

In a comment to the press outside the court, Karl Hill, Heron Clan sub-chief, said he has confidence that Fisher will judge fairly “and never ignore that the reservation is still qualified territory. If you look at it simplistically, the other side is trying to claim that the Cayuga Nation no longer has a reservation, that the reservation of 64,000 acres has been disestablished. According to U.S. law, that can only happen by an act of Congress.”

Tribal opponents also argue that the state is obligated “to enforce this cigarette tax while providing coupons to Native Americans so they can buy tax free cigarettes.”

The referred tax law is a 2006 amendment to the tax law that would have required all cigarettes sold on reservations to be tax stamped and would have imposed a coupon system for tribal retailers to get tax refunds on cigarettes sold to tribal members.

But the law never took effect. A state appellate court slapped a preliminary injunction against it after a court challenge brought by attorney Margaret Murphy on behalf of her client in Day wholesale Inc. vs. State of New York. The injunction is still in effect.

A similar law passed last summer has not been signed by Paterson.

This is the second, non-state, local government action against cigarette sales on sovereign Indian land in the past few months. At the end of September, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg filed a lawsuit against the Unkechaug Indian Nation alleging that “massive quantities” of illegal cigarettes are being sold at reservation smoke shops. The lawsuit is pending.

In an interview outside of the courtroom, Cayuga Heron Clan mother Bernadette Hill said it was heartbreaking to watch police raid the two Cayuga owned stores on the tribe’s sovereign land.
“The bottom line is there is just no understanding of the fact that we were here first,” Hill said.


article: http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/home/content/35562389.html
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 09:00 PM

Dick: You need to remember i have nothing to gain or lose no matter what happens. Unlike you i don't make money off this.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/08/08 10:49 PM

Sworldt, I believe you don't smoke, but I think maybe you put together one too many model airplanes some time in your life.

You emphasize that the tribes say they are NOT breaking the law. Do you even have a clue as to what law they ARE breaking? Hint: they are breaking the criminal law of possessing an excess volume of untaxed cigarettes. There is NO court order against enforcing THAT law.

Since when has UCE ever "attacked" the tribes? It's an IMPOSSIBILITY to file a lawsuit against a tribe. ALL UCE has EVER done is EXPOSE THE TRUTHS pushing for EQUALITY under the law. You've ALWAYS opposed that and always sided with the tribes. You never spoke up until you started backing tribal casino deals. That's your "economic development". Your frustration boileth over because your side lost. More than once I might add.

I guess your version of "attack" is to speak the truth, because on "tribal" land there is no freedom of speech.

And just WHAT in the world would UCE desire "revenge" for? You're dreaming again.

The tribes ARE wards of the federal government, BUT overseeing them and land status are two different things. You are as redundant as Dan French. The Cayuga reservation does NOT exist. IF it DID, they SURE wouldn't be ASKING the federal government to TAKE IT FROM THEM by applying for trust status.

As Trump asked, "Would the local DA's attempt collection if there was a court order against it?"

Did you answer the question? NOooo. All you did was copy and paste of a newspaper article. We ALL know how reliable newspaper articles are. Why don't you post a copy of the :injunction" to expose what it does NOT say?

AGAIN you lie about UCE tax exempt status like a true tribal wannabee trooper. Donations to UCE are NOT tax deductable. You have a REALLY hard time trying to speak for yourself. Don't even attempt to try and speak for UCE, you're too confused.

As Trump said, if the tribes obeyed the law, UCE would go out of business. To which you totally lost it trying to make it a racial issue. There is a BIG difference between tribal governments violating OUR rights and the tribal members who have no rights under their government or Indian non-members in the same boat as the rest of the taxpayers.

NOBODY ever said the tribes shouldn't be allowed self government. Every village, town and county has self government. But they all comply with state and federal laws. The tribes don't want to.

You even caught yourself up in your own rant. "IF the cayugas are given trust status on their land it will be the federal goverment controlling it not the local gov."

Is it trust land now? NOoooo? Then I guess the federal government does NOT have a say in the land status or local laws, do they? Don't think TOO hard about that, you might hurt yourself.

And as for the 60 year comment, that's another skew. The Cayuga have been paid eight final settlements including state, international and congressional. But the problem with their filing a claim through the ICC was they had to relinquish all rights to sue the federal government to get their last (eighth) final settlement. That's why they sued the state, counties and landowners in 1980. They couldn't sue the feds again.

International court ruled in 1926 including all three factions of the tribe. The Cayuga filed a claim with Congress in 1950's.

As far as being on the losing end, the states, counties, and landowners were on the losing end until about 15 years ago when the APA was amended to allow access to the material that was being used against them.

Thank you for bringing the sovereignty page to my attention from the UCE web site. We posted that about ten years ago. The only point I would change is reservations are not always federal and not always trust land. All reservations in NYS are state reservations. That is all I would change.

The Cayuga tribe is in Canada on their reservation. The New York Cayuga dissident faction has a qualified reservation with the Seneca.

As for your claim that the Cayuga reservation still exists, I guess you still haven't read the SCOTUS ruling on Sherrill. It doesn't say what you want to hear. UNlike the newspaper articles, it's law.

If you're gullible enough to think that loss of Constitutional rights on tribal lands is nothing to lose or tribal impacts on surrounding governments is negligible, then I see your point. You didn't feel losing $30 million tax dollars a year as a result of two local tribal stores was a loss either.

And unless you plan to start sending me money, I think your still confused.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 08:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

[DID YA GET THAT? ANY DRUNK TRIBAL MEMBER OR DRUNK TRIBAL EMPLOYEE HAS SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY FROM LAWSUIT EVEN AFTER THEY RUN YER BUTT DOWN. And Sworldt WANTS a tribal casino here.]


That is pathetic. \:\(
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: You need to remember i have nothing to gain or lose no matter what happens.


Yes, you do. If the Indians win and pay no taxes, you continue to pay more taxes to make up the difference just like the rest of us.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
AGAIN you lie about UCE tax exempt status like a true tribal wannabee trooper. Donations to UCE are NOT tax deductable. You have a REALLY hard time trying to speak for yourself. Don't even attempt to try and speak for UCE, you're too confused.


Really? He had me believing him. You are right. Sworldt is totally confused.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

“As I am sure you are aware, Governor Paterson is currently engaged in discussions with New York’s Native American nations and tribes



MY God, what are they negotiating? Just enforce the law and the court decisions!!!
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 12:37 PM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: sworldt

“As I am sure you are aware, Governor Paterson is currently engaged in discussions with New York’s Native American nations and tribes



MY God, what are they negotiating? Just enforce the law and the court decisions!!!


Absolutely. What the heck are they doing?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
...Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


With your wife being indian - how much would your per capita be if a seneca cayuga casino were built it in auburn?


Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
you.


Sworldt will you let halftown and 2gun live at your house when their homes, cars, possessions are confiscated for unpaid sales taxes?

$200+ million owed!!!!!!!!!!!!!



.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
...Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


With your wife being indian - how much would your per capita be if a seneca cayuga casino were built it in auburn?



What? His wife is Indian? He said above it he had nothing to gain or lose from the Indian situation. You can't believe a thing he says, can you?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

That is the whole argument. The indians say they are NOT breaking the law...



Bye sworldt.......




.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 06:06 PM

What - no word from Sworldt?

OH - but we DID get word from the Judge.

Page 10:

and, in any event, the sales in question did not occur on "a qualified reservatio[n]" within the meaning of Tax Law §471-e(1)(a), or "Indian country" within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. §1151(a)

Next thing you'll hear him claim is it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't tribal court. LOL

MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone !
Posted by: Rigatoni

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 06:21 PM

Don`t hurt yourself patting yourself on the back
"Dick"
This is far from over and you know it.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Rigatoni
Don`t hurt yourself patting yourself on the back
"Dick"
This is far from over and you know it.


I am afraid you are right. The Indians have been giving us the shaft for 200+ years now. \:\( And we let them continue to do it while damaging our free enterprise system of capitalism.
Posted by: wanabe

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 06:48 PM

I think your right, gasoline is next on the agenda
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: sworldt

“As I am sure you are aware, Governor Paterson is currently engaged in discussions with New York’s Native American nations and tribes



MY God, what are they negotiating? Just enforce the law and the court decisions!!!


Absolutely. What the heck are they doing?


Time for phase II:

"Both Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann agreed not to file felony tax evasion charges against the nation until after Fisher issues a decision."

By: Nate Robson / The Citizen Dec 3

Yet the Governor feels obliged to negotiate? What's he negotiating, his golden parachute and retirement benefits for sucking up to the tribes?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Rigatoni
Don`t hurt yourself patting yourself on the back
"Dick"
This is far from over and you know it.
Oooo K. Sounds like Sworldt has a second handle again. Did you forget which name you were logged under?
Posted by: Rigatoni

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 08:33 PM

No "Dick" , but thanks.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/09/08 11:15 PM

this isn't over by a long shot ... we all know this.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 09:47 AM

I haven't gone nowhere. As i stated my posts are based on news articles.I have nothing to lose or gain no matter what.

Dick if you are organized as a not-profit charity anything bought would be deductible as a donation.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 09:50 AM

Dick: heres a thought for you and your group. If the DA's decide to pursue charge slips for prosecution of those who have purchsed from the trading post.Make sure you take credit for their new found legal problems.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
...Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


With your wife being indian - how much would your per capita be if a seneca cayuga casino were built it in auburn?



What? His wife is Indian? He said above it he had nothing to gain or lose from the Indian situation. You can't believe a thing he says, can you?


Are you really this desperate. My wife is part indian the same as alot of us,but she is not enrolled and is not connected localy. As i said nothing to gain or lose.
Posted by: Ovidian

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:05 AM

UCE wouldn't be responsible for any of their problems. Also I would think the shear volume of business done there would make the task of post taxation daunting and almost impossible.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:08 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
...Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


With your wife being indian - how much would your per capita be if a seneca cayuga casino were built it in auburn?



What? His wife is Indian? He said above it he had nothing to gain or lose from the Indian situation. You can't believe a thing he says, can you?


Are you really this desperate. My wife is part indian the same as alot of us,but she is not enrolled and is not connected localy. As i said nothing to gain or lose.


A lot of us are part Indian? I don't know anyone who is. Your wife is not connected locally? But I bet if the Indians were to win a big lawsuit she would get connected locally in a hurry to get her share!
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:08 AM

NYS Department of State
Division of Corporations
Entity Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selected Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.

Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
Initial DOS Filing Date: JANUARY 07, 1999
County: ONEIDA
Jurisdiction: NEW YORK
Entity Type: DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE

Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity)
UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
228 COTTAGE PLACE
ONEIDA, NEW YORK, 13421
Registered Agent
LEON R. KOZIOL, ATTY AT LAW
1518 GENESEE STREET
UTICA, NEW YORK, 13502

NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers

Link:
http://appsext8.dos.state.ny.us/corp_pub..._results_page=0
Posted by: Ovidian

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:11 AM

I don't think it's that easy. The wealth doesn't seem to trickle down to those most in need in the tribe now.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
...Believe in yourself and do what YOU think is right.


With your wife being indian - how much would your per capita be if a seneca cayuga casino were built it in auburn?



What? His wife is Indian? He said above it he had nothing to gain or lose from the Indian situation. You can't believe a thing he says, can you?


Are you really this desperate. My wife is part indian the same as alot of us,but she is not enrolled and is not connected localy. As i said nothing to gain or lose.


A lot of us are part Indian? I don't know anyone who is. Your wife is not connected locally? But I bet if the Indians were to win a big lawsuit she would get connected locally in a hurry to get her share!


You really don't understand do you. My wife is NOT enrolled. She is not entitled to enroll with any local tribe.I have alot of friends who are enrolled and proud of that friendship in spite of people like you.I have no family enrolled in ANY new york tribe.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Ovidian
UCE wouldn't be responsible for any of their problems. Also I would think the shear volume of business done there would make the task of post taxation daunting and almost impossible.


Time will tell.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 03:44 PM

[Sworldt: "Dick if you are organized as a not-profit charity anything bought would be deductible as a donation."]

Sworldt, there are different non-profit corporation status exemptions. I see you searched and found what you WANTED to. But, AS USUAL, you lack the skills to interpret what you read. There is a BIG difference between a "NOT-FOR-PROFIT" and a "NON-PROFIT". Basically, the difference is between a 501(c) 3 and a 501 (c) 4. UCE is incorporated as a political organization. Such status prohibits donations from being tax deductable. So, I'm sorry to break the news to you, but ALL the money you wrote off that you donated to UCE has to have taxes paid on it.

Legal problems of others are of their own doing. UCE will gladly take credit for providing information which led to the laws being enforced. If UCE had the authority to carry out such enforcement, it would have been done years ago.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
NYS Department of State
Division of Corporations
Entity Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selected Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.

Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
Initial DOS Filing Date: JANUARY 07, 1999
County: ONEIDA
Jurisdiction: NEW YORK
Entity Type: DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE

Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity)
UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
228 COTTAGE PLACE
ONEIDA, NEW YORK, 13421
Registered Agent
LEON R. KOZIOL, ATTY AT LAW
1518 GENESEE STREET
UTICA, NEW YORK, 13502

NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers

Link:
http://appsext8.dos.state.ny.us/corp_pub..._results_page=0



Did you find the Cayuga reservation yet?


Look up FELONY charges and see what that entails.




???
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
... You really don't understand do you. My wife is NOT enrolled. She is not entitled to enroll with any local tribe.I have alot of friends who are enrolled and proud of that friendship in spite of people like you.I have no family enrolled in ANY new york tribe.


Oklahoma?




Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Rigatoni
Don`t hurt yourself patting yourself on the back
"Dick"
This is far from over and you know it.



Lets hope all other counties in NY enforce the laws against the tribal enterprises.




.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[Sworldt: "Dick if you are organized as a not-profit charity anything bought would be deductible as a donation."]

Sworldt, there are different non-profit corporation status exemptions. I see you searched and found what you WANTED to. But, AS USUAL, you lack the skills to interpret what you read. There is a BIG difference between a "NOT-FOR-PROFIT" and a "NON-PROFIT". Basically, the difference is between a 501(c) 3 and a 501 (c) 4. UCE is incorporated as a political organization. Such status prohibits donations from being tax deductable. So, I'm sorry to break the news to you, but ALL the money you wrote off that you donated to UCE has to have taxes paid on it.

Legal problems of others are of their own doing. UCE will gladly take credit for providing information which led to the laws being enforced. If UCE had the authority to carry out such enforcement, it would have been done years ago.


Search Charities Database

SEARCH RESULTS SELECTION
Organization Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC
Registration Type: NFP
Registration Statute: 7A
Month number fiscal year ends : 12
Federal ID No. (EIN): 161565566
NY State Reg. No.: 17-15-88
County: MADISON
Address:
PO BOX 65
WAMPSVILLE , NY 13163-0065
Web Site: NO DATA AVAILABLE



Documents Available:
Underlined documents can be viewed by clicking on the documents’ names. When clicking on a document, depending on the browser you are using, it may be necessary to select a choice other than Open to access the document. For example, if given the choices Open and Save, it may necessary to click on Save to view the document.
Registration Statement for Charitable Organizations (CHAR410)
Title Date Received
Registration Statement for Charitable Organizations 12/06/2000
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations (CHAR500)
Title Date Received
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 12/06/2000
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 07/26/2001
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 05/23/2002
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 10/10/2002
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 10/10/2002
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 10/10/2002
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 04/08/2004
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 04/17/2006
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 03/30/2007


http://bartlett.oag.state.ny.us/Char_For...F-EAD25C120A69}
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
.... Are u prepared to accept the court ruling as law or will you want to change it if its not in your favor?


It sounds like you are the one having difficulties with the ruling.



.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
... You really don't understand do you. My wife is NOT enrolled. She is not entitled to enroll with any local tribe.I have alot of friends who are enrolled and proud of that friendship in spite of people like you.I have no family enrolled in ANY new york tribe.


Oklahoma?






Wrong AGAIN. But you keep me laughing. Thanx
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/10/08 10:39 PM

AS USUAL, you STILL lack the skills to interpret what you read. ALL corporations have to make an annual filing. We make one to the state and to the IRS every year. As I explained, there is a BIG difference between a 501(c) 3 and a 501 (c) 4. NYS calls them both charitable organizations. UCE does not have to pay income tax on donations made, but donations are not tax deductable.

Have you found a reference to ANY treaty with the Cayuga where you can actually cite (copy and paste the phrase) that has been violated yet? NOooo?

I do not mean newspaper articles where someone else gives their opinion or bogus claims in frivolous tribal lawsuits where Dan French cites rulings and fails to mention that they were made BEFORE the case was overruled and dismissed. I laughed my butt off when the judge nailed him on that.

I would bet I can find phrases within treaties that the tribe has violated. If the Sue tribe honored the treaties we wouldn't be having these issues.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 08:01 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
... You really don't understand do you. My wife is NOT enrolled. She is not entitled to enroll with any local tribe.I have alot of friends who are enrolled and proud of that friendship in spite of people like you.I have no family enrolled in ANY new york tribe.


Oklahoma?






Wrong AGAIN. But you keep me laughing. Thanx


Canada is home.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
...Have you found a reference to ANY treaty with the Cayuga where you can actually cite (copy and paste the phrase) that has been violated yet? NOooo? ...


Violating NY laws on NY land is a violation of the treaties by the tribes.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
NYS Department of State
Division of Corporations
Entity Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selected Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.

Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
Initial DOS Filing Date: JANUARY 07, 1999
County: ONEIDA
Jurisdiction: NEW YORK
Entity Type: DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE

Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity)
UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
228 COTTAGE PLACE
ONEIDA, NEW YORK, 13421
Registered Agent
LEON R. KOZIOL, ATTY AT LAW
1518 GENESEE STREET
UTICA, NEW YORK, 13502

NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers

Link:
http://appsext8.dos.state.ny.us/corp_pub..._results_page=0



keep grasping for straws.

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 08:23 AM

The OIN "think" that the ruling against the Cayuga does not apply to them.



Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - same conditions.

May have to bring in the national guard to raid all the OIN businesses.







.

Posted by: grinch

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 11:20 AM

The Cayuga tribe have closed down their two stations.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/cayugas_lose_cigarette_ruling.html
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 11:33 AM

Union Springs, NY -- The Cayuga Indian Nation, dealt a serious legal setback this week, has closed both of its LakeSide Trading stores in Union Springs and town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer confirmed today.

"On advice of counsel, the nation has voluntarily and temporarily suspended operations because Judge (Kenneth) Fisher's decision radically changed the legal landscape and that the nation, while it may disagree with the law, will always follow it....They're not going to break the law,'' attorney Daniel French, of Syracuse, said.

On Tuesday, Fisher, a state Supreme Court judge from Monroe County, sided with Cayuga and Seneca counties in ruling that the nation does not have sovereign rights to sell untaxed cigarettes. The nation has been selling tax-free tobacco products since opening its stores about four years ago.

Fisher's decision also opens the possibility for criminal tax-evasion charges to be filed in the case and district attorneys in both counties said this week they are going to present their individual cases to grand juries for review.

Meanwhile, French said the nation is going to seek legal action to overturn Fisher's ruling, which he said "interprets well-established Indian law in a way no one contemplated or expected.''

Until then, the stores will remain closed. About 30 employees in both stores are affected, he said.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
...Meanwhile, French said the nation is going to seek legal action to overturn Fisher's ruling, which he said "interprets well-established Indian law in a way no one contemplated or expected .''


Has French been living in cave?
Is that why they closed their bingo hall?
Is that why the gas pumps were tested?
Is that why the tribe had to comply with all other laws except they refused to pay the sales/excise taxes?
Has he heard of the Supreme Court?


.

Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
AS USUAL, you STILL lack the skills to interpret what you read. ALL corporations have to make an annual filing. We make one to the state and to the IRS every year. As I explained, there is a BIG difference between a 501(c) 3 and a 501 (c) 4. NYS calls them both charitable organizations. UCE does not have to pay income tax on donations made, but donations are not tax deductable.

Have you found a reference to ANY treaty with the Cayuga where you can actually cite (copy and paste the phrase) that has been violated yet? NOooo?

I do not mean newspaper articles where someone else gives their opinion or bogus claims in frivolous tribal lawsuits where Dan French cites rulings and fails to mention that they were made BEFORE the case was overruled and dismissed. I laughed my butt off when the judge nailed him on that.

I would bet I can find phrases within treaties that the tribe has violated. If the Sue tribe honored the treaties we wouldn't be having these issues.


Such anger. really i didn't give an opinion just posting information for people to form their own opinion. God take a blood pressure pill. Gee i thought i was being nice to you. I haven't even posted my opinion of your group this time and all you and your ego BZ is doing is attacking me. Be Happy don't worry.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

Such anger.


I do not detect anger just the fact that you offer no proof of your statements.


Why did they close the gas station?

.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 01:49 PM

Dick: You want my opinion This is what i think.

1) Right or wrong
the two DA's did us all a favor. In the respect this may force the powers to be to end this once and for all. One way or the other. ( It doesn't matter to me which way )

2) This unfortunately may give the Cayugas and other tribes the excuse they need to demonstrate to the BIA and congress the need to place their land into trust.


There you go a simple opinion.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt

Such anger.


I do not detect anger just the fact that you offer no proof of your statements.


Why did they close the gas station?

.


No proof. Why do you think i provided a link to the GOVERMENT website i got the info from. The copy and paste is so nobody can accuse me of editing the info.

Everybody can draw their own opinion. If its not anger than its desperation you choose.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 02:07 PM

MERRY CHRISTMAS
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: You want my opinion This is what i think.

1) Right or wrong
the two DA's did us all a favor. In the respect this may force the powers to be to end this once and for all. One way or the other. ( It doesn't matter to me which way )

2) This unfortunately may give the Cayugas and other tribes the excuse they need to demonstrate to the BIA and congress the need to place their land into trust.


There you go a simple opinion.


LOL

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt

Such anger.


I do not detect anger just the fact that you offer no proof of your statements.


Why did they close the gas station?

.


No proof. Why do you think i provided a link to the GOVERMENT website i got the info from. The copy and paste is so nobody can accuse me of editing the info.

Everybody can draw their own opinion. If its not anger than its desperation you choose.




LOL


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 03:19 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
MERRY CHRISTMAS



Indeed.


.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 04:08 PM

Cayugas close stores in wake of court ruling
By: Nathan Robson / The Citizen

Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:19 PM EST

Two Lake Side Trading stores owned by the Cayuga Nation have temporarily suspended operations pending a review of Tuesday's state supreme court decision that ruled the businesses could be investigated for felony tax evasion.
Dan French, an attorney for the Cayuga Nation, said the stores stopped all operations on Wednesday after he talked with the nation's leadership. The nation does not charge taxes on any purchases made at the store.

"The Cayuga Nation has always abided by the law, and the law seems to be in flux right now," French said. "Until there is more clarity we will temporarily suspend business."

In a written decision, state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher rejected the nation's lawsuit against the district attorneys' and sheriffs' offices in Seneca and Cayuga counties.

The nation claimed law enforcement illegally raided and searched their businesses in Seneca Falls and Union Springs on Nov. 25 because they were located on a reservation owned by a sovereign nation.

The tribe, along with other Indian nations in New York, have claimed they are exempt from collecting sales and excise taxes on their property because their businesses are protected by their sovereign nation status.

Fisher said the tribe, while recognized as a sovereign nation, did not have a recognized reservation according to New York state's tax laws. He also said that an injunction on a part of the tax law only prevented the use of a coupon system to exempt American Indians from paying tax, and did not excuse the tribe from collecting taxes on transactions made by non-Indians.

Fisher cited the decisions of several U.S. and state Supreme Court rulings involving the Oneida and Cayuga nations as the basis for his decision.

French said the nation will appeal Fisher's ruling.

Between the two stores, French said more than 30 employees were out of work, and that the nation will be losing a key source of income for its social programs.

"I am sure this will result in a hardship for the nation's programs," French said. "The revenue wholly supported their health care, roads, homes and employment."

Cayuga County Sheriff David Gould said the stores were allowed to sell taxed cigarettes and that there was no investigation into the sale of untaxed gas at either location.

"If they closed, it was not because we shut them down or told them they had to," Gould said. "We have maintained that they can sell anything at there stores as long as they are taxed."

But French said the nation had no intention of collecting excise or sales tax.

"The Cayuga Nation is a sovereign nation that owns these stores within their reservation," French said. "No nation, including the Cayuga Nation has ever collected or administered sales tax, and no nation has ever been required to do so."
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
... French said. "The revenue wholly supported their health care, roads, homes and employment."


Health care, roads, homes and employment.
?????????????????????????????????????



Originally Posted By: reilley

But French said the nation had no intention of collecting excise or sales tax.



But they pocketed the sales and excise tax.


Originally Posted By: reilley

"The Cayuga Nation is a sovereign nation that owns these stores within their reservation," French said.


Their reservation is in Canada.

Originally Posted By: reilley

"No nation, including the Cayuga Nation has ever collected or administered sales tax, and no nation has ever been required to do so."


Is that why other states collect the sales taxes from the tribes in their state.


.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/11/08 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Such anger. really i didn't give an opinion just posting information for people to form their own opinion. God take a blood pressure pill. Gee i thought i was being nice to you. I haven't even posted my opinion of your group this time and all you and your ego BZ is doing is attacking me. Be Happy don't worry.

Page 11
Originally Posted By: Sworldt
The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes.
I'D SAY THAT WAS AN "OPINION".

To which I explained ON Page 14: you lie about UCE tax exempt status. Donations to UCE are NOT tax deductable.

Originally Posted By: Sworldt
Still confused and frustrated you tried to insinuate I lied by posting on Page 16:
Selected Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
Entity Type: DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION

On Page 16 I explained again: UCE is incorporated as a political organization. Such status prohibits donations from being tax deductable. AGAIN you lie about UCE tax exempt status. Donations to UCE are NOT tax deductable.

Originally Posted By: Sworldt
Still confused and not convinced you reply by posting our annual filing on page 17:
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 04/08/2004
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 04/17/2006
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 03/30/2007

Page 17 My reply: As I explained, there is a BIG difference between a 501(c) 3 and a 501 (c) 4.

Page 18
Originally Posted By: Sworldt
i didn't give an opinion just posting information for people to form their own opinion.

You lie again Sworldt, you posted your OPINION on page 11

But I am happy Sworldt. Thank you for wishing me happiness. In fact my jaws ache from laughing.
Posted by: SFisWonderful

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Cayugas close stores in wake of court ruling
By: Nathan Robson / The Citizen

Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:19 PM EST

"I am sure this will result in a hardship for the nation's programs," French said. "The revenue wholly supported their health care, roads, homes and employment."


Is this the housing you were talking about that your illegal money supported?


Does French have any idea on what he is talking about? The reservations are ghetto and slums. We can thank French, Halftown, and Twoguns for this.

Maybe French was just talking about their (Halftown, Twoguns, and French) health care, houses, and employment. Why should they worry about the true natives when their needs and wants are satisfied. Let's not even get into their exotic dancers at Turning Stone.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 03:41 AM

Cigarette tax bill lands on governor's desk

The current legislation would shift the collection from reservations to the manufacturing and wholesale level, a tactic that worked in other states.


Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 02:25 PM

"But French said the nation had no intention" of complying with the law. He also says "The Cayuga Nation has always abided by the law."

Sometimes it's better to just let them speak for themselves. So rather than merely obey the law they were NOT complying with they CHOSE to put all their employees out of work rather than START obeying the law.

Rather than show appreciation to their customers, like the SCAM customer appreciation day to gain support for defying the law the same day those promoting enforcing the laws held a motorcade, they locked the doors.

French said. "The revenue wholly supported their health care, roads, homes and employment."

Whoa whoa whoa - ROADS? WHAT ROADS? WHERE? The TAX revenue they STOLE and REFUSED to remit supported their ROADS?

IF Dan French REALLY believes this is a reservation, then he better start paying ME for maintaining his ROADS! In fact he owes me overtime.

They get free health care on their qualified Cattaraugus reservation, thanks to the TAXpayers.

Employment? They hire others to do all the work. Is EVERYONE in the Cayuga tribe in the government?

Homes? Well, everyone has to live somewhere. They've spent close to a million on the mansion in Union Springs, but nobody lives there.

But I'd sooner say the revenue wholly supported the Sue tribe's legal fees, campaign contributions, millions spent on land purchases, and more legal fees.

"Fisher cited the decisions of several U.S. and state Supreme Court rulings involving the Oneida and Cayuga nations as the basis for his decision."

Yes he did - he cited the decisions that were made before they were overturned - LOL. CORRECTION - Fisher was CORRECT. It was Dan French that I was thinking of when I posted.

French's pity me sympathy ploy explanation only raises more questions.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Such anger. really i didn't give an opinion just posting information for people to form their own opinion. God take a blood pressure pill. Gee i thought i was being nice to you. I haven't even posted my opinion of your group this time and all you and your ego BZ is doing is attacking me. Be Happy don't worry.

Page 11
Originally Posted By: Sworldt
The UCE themselves are TAX EXEMPT. You buy a sign or any goods from their fund raisers and write off your taxes.
I'D SAY THAT WAS AN "OPINION".

To which I explained ON Page 14: you lie about UCE tax exempt status. Donations to UCE are NOT tax deductable.

Originally Posted By: Sworldt
Still confused and frustrated you tried to insinuate I lied by posting on Page 16:
Selected Entity Name: UPSTATE CITIZENS FOR EQUALITY INC.
Entity Type: DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION

On Page 16 I explained again: UCE is incorporated as a political organization. Such status prohibits donations from being tax deductable. AGAIN you lie about UCE tax exempt status. Donations to UCE are NOT tax deductable.

Originally Posted By: Sworldt
Still confused and not convinced you reply by posting our annual filing on page 17:
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 04/08/2004
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 04/17/2006
Annual Filing for Charitable Organizations 03/30/2007

Page 17 My reply: As I explained, there is a BIG difference between a 501(c) 3 and a 501 (c) 4.

Page 18
Originally Posted By: Sworldt
i didn't give an opinion just posting information for people to form their own opinion.

You lie again Sworldt, you posted your OPINION on page 11

But I am happy Sworldt. Thank you for wishing me happiness. In fact my jaws ache from laughing.



Are you that screwed up. You gave refrence to pages 11 - 18 and this thread is only up to page 10. Are you drunk or high. You say i lied and copy pages from a goverment website. What you accusing me now of writting their website. So How much STATE SALES TAX have the UCE collected and remitted to the STATE on your signs, t-shirts, hats bake sale or anything else you use for fund raisers. ? Go home and sober up
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 05:07 PM

Dick: I will make this simple for you. Does the UCE collect and remit state sales tax?
Posted by: SFisWonderful

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Homes? Well, everyone has to live somewhere. They've spent close to a million on the mansion in Union Springs, but nobody lives there.


RT. . .Is this the mansion that workers spent a good 2 months finishing the stone wall out in front? That wall alone must have cost 100 GRAND! ! !
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 06:00 PM

yup
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 06:09 PM

"Fisher cited the decisions of several U.S. and state Supreme Court rulings involving the Oneida and Cayuga nations as the basis for his decision."

Yes he did - he cited the decisions that were made before they were overturned - LOL. CORRECTION - Fisher was CORRECT. It was Dan French that I was thinking of when I posted.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I will make this simple for you. Does the UCE collect and remit state sales tax?
Sworldt: I'll make this REAL simple for you and type really really slowly.

When UCE sells something, sales taxes ARE remitted to the state.

Thank you for making it simple for me. I don't know why your computer shows you're on page 10, because mine shows we're on page 20 now.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 06:41 PM

If you got to My stuff and then My Preferences you can change how many posts and how many topics you want to see on each page. That is why it is different for everyone. (I am only on page 5)
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 07:16 PM

Ahh, thank you. I try to make correct statements and if I don't know, I say I don't know. Now I know.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 07:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I will make this simple for you. Does the UCE collect and remit state sales tax?
Sworldt: I'll make this REAL simple for you and type really really slowly.

When UCE sells something, sales taxes ARE remitted to the state.

Thank you for making it simple for me. I don't know why your computer shows you're on page 10, because mine shows we're on page 20 now.


Now remember i'm stupid so you DO pay sales tax on your Donations.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 07:38 PM

Dick: I'll tell you what. By State law you are required to display and give out your tax authority number when requested. I' requesting it. Why don't you post it and i'll check for myself.
Posted by: dwarren

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I will make this simple for you. Does the UCE collect and remit state sales tax?
Sworldt: I'll make this REAL simple for you and type really really slowly.

When UCE sells something, sales taxes ARE remitted to the state.

Thank you for making it simple for me. I don't know why your computer shows you're on page 10, because mine shows we're on page 20 now.


Now remember i'm stupid so you DO pay sales tax on your Donations.


There is no sales tax due on donations because that is not a sale as defined by the NYS Tax Law. Since the donations are not tax deductible there is no taxes due because the taxes were already paid when earned by the donor.

BTW where is the Cayuga Nation's filing for ANY tax exempt provisions?
Posted by: dwarren

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I'll tell you what. By State law you are required to display and give out your tax authority number when requested. I' requesting it. Why don't you post it and i'll check for myself.


When did you request it and to whom? Since you already have it how was the request not being honored, and how was it not being furnished harmed you? BTW, does the Cayugas have one?
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I will make this simple for you. Does the UCE collect and remit state sales tax?
Sworldt: I'll make this REAL simple for you and type really really slowly.

When UCE sells something, sales taxes ARE remitted to the state.

Thank you for making it simple for me. I don't know why your computer shows you're on page 10, because mine shows we're on page 20 now.


Now remember i'm stupid so you DO pay sales tax on your Donations.


There is no sales tax due on donations because that is not a sale as defined by the NYS Tax Law. Since the donataions are not tax deductible there is no taxes due because the taxes were already paid when earned by the donor.

BTW where is the Cayuga Nation's filing for ANY tax exempt provisions?


Don't try making this about the indians this is about the UCE.

ARE your DONATIONS ( Shirts etc. )you charge for your fund raisers TAX EXEMPT.

Do you charge a membership fee to join UCE or do you ask for a donation instead.

Who did i ask warren about a year ago in the forums. And i do not have to prove you caused me harm to request your tax ID number. So why don't you give it.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:08 PM

Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:12 PM

Warren: Remember im just a simple dumb person so bare with. See if i understand this. The UCE formed a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY who does not have to collect and remit sales tax because everything is seen as a DONATION. So you can complain about others who don't pay sales tax. HMMMM

What makes you any better than the indians?
Posted by: dwarren

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:22 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.


Your group is the joke. You say all you want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

By the way when you start calling people names all you do is show your own stupidity.

The fact remains you are doing the same thing you accuse the indians of TAX EVASION through exploiting loop holes.

You might call me stupid, but even i would realize to make sure i wasn't doing the same thing i'm accusing someone else of.

BTW No you never gave me your number.
Posted by: dwarren

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.


Your group is the joke. You say all you want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

By the way when you start calling people names all you do is show your own stupidity.

The fact remains you are doing the same thing you accuse the indians of TAX EVASION through exploiting loop holes.

You might call me stupid, but even i would realize to make sure i wasn't doing the same thing i'm accusing someone else of.

BTW No you never gave me your number.


Let us examine your track record of all the times that you said either the land claim was a done deal in the Cayugas' favor and it was not, the Seneca-Cayugas' casino was a done deal and it was not, etc. You are the one that lacks any credibility. You cannot even complete a cogent thought or rationalization of why UCE's tax status is even comparable to the Cayugas. All of your argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.


Your group is the joke. You say all you want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

By the way when you start calling people names all you do is show your own stupidity.

The fact remains you are doing the same thing you accuse the indians of TAX EVASION through exploiting loop holes.

You might call me stupid, but even i would realize to make sure i wasn't doing the same thing i'm accusing someone else of.

BTW No you never gave me your number.


Let us examine your track record of all the times that you said either the land claim was a done deal in the Cayugas' favor and it was not, the Seneca-Cayugas' casino was a done deal and it was not, etc. You are the one that lacks any credibility. You cannot even complete a cogent thought or rationalization of why UCE's tax status is even comparable to the Cayugas. All of your argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious.


Here you go just more dribble from yet another TAX EVADER.

By the way i NEVER said the S.C. casino was a done deal.
Oh wait you brought up a good point the Seneca Cayugas are incorporated and where willing to pay ALL TAXES unlike the UCE whos using tax loop holes.

Now just so you can't say i never helped you all you need to do is scan your tax cert. and post it.

As far as credability goes we'll let everybody decide for themselves. As i have nothing to gain.

Ok Dick your puppet master will let you speak again.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/12/08 09:47 PM

Sworldt: I - c a n ' t - t y p e - a n y - s l o w e r.

W h e n - U C E - s e l l s - s o m e t h I n g , - s a l e s - t a x e s - A R E - r e m I t t e d - t o - t h e - s t a t e .

W h e n - I - h a v e - s o m e t h I n g - t o - s e l l - t o - y o u , - I ' l l - g I v e - y o u - t h e - s a l e s - t a x - n u m b e r .

F I r s t - y o u - s p e a k - f o r - U C E - a n d - s a y - d o n a t I o n s - a r e - t a x - d e d u c t I b l e.

Y o u - a r e - w r o n g .

T h e n - y o u - q u e s t I o n - I f - U C E - r e m I t s - s a l e s - t a x - o n - s a l e s .

Y e s - w e - d o .

T h e n - y o u - t h I n k - s a l e s - t a x e s - h a v e - t o - b e - p a I d - o n - d o n a t I o n s.

D a n - t r I e d - t o - e x p l a I n , b u t - I - d o n ' t - t h I n k - h e - t y p e d - s l o w l e y - e n o u g h .

N o t h I n g - t o - g a I n ? - I - r e c a l l - t h e - S e n e c a - C a y u g a s - p a I d - l o c a l s - y e a r s - b a c k - t o - t r y - a n d - q u a s h - o p p o s I t I o n . - Y o u ' r e - p r o b a b l y - o n - t h e - p a y r o l l - I n - h o p e s - t h a t - O b a m a - w I l l - h a v e - t h e - r u l e s - c h a n g e d - r e g a r d I n g - t h e I r - t r u s t - d e n I a l .

I - h a v e - n o t h I n g - t o g a I n - b u t - e q u a l I t y - u n d e r - t h e - l a w .

T h e r e ' s - n o - h e l p I n g - y o u . - B u t - M e r r y - C h r I s t m a s - a n y w a y .
Posted by: SFisWonderful

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 02:29 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.


Your group is the joke. You say all you want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

By the way when you start calling people names all you do is show your own stupidity.

The fact remains you are doing the same thing you accuse the indians of TAX EVASION through exploiting loop holes.

You might call me stupid, but even i would realize to make sure i wasn't doing the same thing i'm accusing someone else of.

BTW No you never gave me your number.


Let us examine your track record of all the times that you said either the land claim was a done deal in the Cayugas' favor and it was not, the Seneca-Cayugas' casino was a done deal and it was not, etc. You are the one that lacks any credibility. You cannot even complete a cogent thought or rationalization of why UCE's tax status is even comparable to the Cayugas. All of your argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious.


Here you go just more dribble from yet another TAX EVADER.

By the way i NEVER said the S.C. casino was a done deal.
Oh wait you brought up a good point the Seneca Cayugas are incorporated and where willing to pay ALL TAXES unlike the UCE whos using tax loop holes.

Now just so you can't say i never helped you all you need to do is scan your tax cert. and post it.

As far as credability goes we'll let everybody decide for themselves. As i have nothing to gain.

Ok Dick your puppet master will let you speak again.


SWORLDT - APPLES and ORANGES! Even if you do not agree with what the UCE stands for or believes in, how can you compare them to the native americans who choose to sell gas, cigarettes, and open casinos on their "sacred" land.

The UCE's basic argument is equal treatment for all, how can YOU argue that equality is wrong? You claim the UCE is using the same tax loopholes as the Indians, WRONG. The Indians tax loopholes are based on race. On the other hand, the UCE's taxbreaks (if they even use or have any-that is your claim sworldt) are available to anyone that chooses to go through the proper "red tape" and not based on race.

I do not see the UCE making millions, making threats to EVICT property owners, buying thousands of acres from which the money came from the sale of CIGS and GAS. The day the UCE starts doing this, which is the day H*LL freezes over, I will no longer support their stance. The Cayugas proved the only reason they were in business was for the the sale of CIGS! That was their ultimate money making machine, they could care less about selling your staple items, although some would consider CIGS a staple item.

I also dont buy the argument that the native americans were here first. My ancestors were not here when this stuff happened, yet I am forced to pay for something that happened 200 years ago? GIVE ME A BREAK. When I have to buy LAND CLAIM INSURANCE upon purchasing my house, I think there is something VERY wrong with the picture! The native americans that play the race card CAN and NEED to find a way to live with the other people that share this land. Saying things such as, "We have our foot in the door and we are going to kick it wide open" only irritates people.

You are entitled to your own opinion, which you expressed many times your hatred for the UCE. I can see why people would be mad if they smoke or because NYS state is ridiculous with taxes. Those are separate issues. NYS has a long way to go to make this state more resident friendly. I would support the native americans 100% if they were trying to lobby for lower gas taxes or cig taxes (even though I dont smoke) but for them to play the race card and not follow the laws that every other CIGARETTE retailer has to, is just wrong. So, I am not sure if RT reminds you of someone who beat you as a kid or what the problem is but your argument is WEAK and WEAK is giving you much credit.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 06:13 AM

Rich Tallcot,

If I make a monetary donation to UCE, there is no sales tax involved.

If I purchase any item from UCE, you charge sales tax on that item and then remit the sales tax to the state.

Is this correct?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 07:39 AM

Correct.

Sworldt and I know who each other and have met. We disagree calmly in person and I don't hate the guy. We're both vets. He takes care of the grave markers. But we have totally different perspectives.

I guess one could say I'm obsessed with promoting equality under the law based on principle. Sworldt appears to be obsessed with promoting supremacy through tribalism. He is married to an Indian who he says is not a registered tribal member and has relatives and friends associated and some probably registered with the Seneca-Cayuga tribe.

I can't help but see the humor in it. Tribal status descends from the mother. To maintain blood quantum they intermarry between tribes, one example being Ray Halbritter. I believe his father was Onondaga but his mother Oneida. I know the Onondaga and Mohawk maintain 50% blood quantum.

I don't know if either Cayuga tribe has a blood quantum requirement. So going back 200 years Sworldt is undoubtedly related to the Cayuga through marriage. But tribal oral history which was used by Judge McCurn, who is also married to an Indian, in court to reach decisions based on "evidence" pertaining to a 200 year old land claim doesn't go back that far for Sworldt.

We pick on each other in fun, but we're serious about it. Even though Sworldt does not smoke, I think his wife does. He says he doesn't have anything to gain. Choice of words is important. He may have something to lose, such as the cost of paying taxes on cigs for his wife. Oddly enough, loss of civil and Constitutional rights doesn't seem to enter his philosophy.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I will make this simple for you. Does the UCE collect and remit state sales tax?


Not on their gas and cigs sales on the reservation.




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: I'll tell you what. By State law you are required to display and give out your tax authority number when requested. I' requesting it. Why don't you post it and i'll check for myself.


Since when do you want to apply the laws?


The UCE is sovereign.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 08:36 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt


By the way i NEVER said the S.C. casino was a done deal.


yes - you did.

Originally Posted By: sworldt

Oh wait you brought up a good point the Seneca Cayugas are incorporated and where willing to pay ALL TAXES unlike the UCE whos using tax loop holes.



Then why did the done deal not transpire?

Until the land went to trust a then all bets were off.

.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Sworldt and I know who each other and have met. We disagree calmly in person and I don't hate the guy. We're both vets. He takes care of the grave markers. But we have totally different perspectives.


Thank you. I appreciate knowing that.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/13/08 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Rich Tallcot,

If I make a monetary donation to UCE, there is no sales tax involved.

If I purchase any item from UCE, you charge sales tax on that item and then remit the sales tax to the state.

Is this correct?


Sworldt, Rich says this is correct. I know taxes can be confusing. I tried to make it as simple as possible. I hope this helps.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/14/08 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: reilley
"I am sure this will result in a hardship for the nation's programs," French said. "The revenue wholly supported their health care, roads, homes and employment."


Where are these Cayuga indian roads?


.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 10:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Correct.

Sworldt and I know who each other and have met. We disagree calmly in person and I don't hate the guy. We're both vets. He takes care of the grave markers. But we have totally different perspectives.

I guess one could say I'm obsessed with promoting equality under the law based on principle. Sworldt appears to be obsessed with promoting supremacy through tribalism. He is married to an Indian who he says is not a registered tribal member and has relatives and friends associated and some probably registered with the Seneca-Cayuga tribe.

I can't help but see the humor in it. Tribal status descends from the mother. To maintain blood quantum they intermarry between tribes, one example being Ray Halbritter. I believe his father was Onondaga but his mother Oneida. I know the Onondaga and Mohawk maintain 50% blood quantum.

I don't know if either Cayuga tribe has a blood quantum requirement. So going back 200 years Sworldt is undoubtedly related to the Cayuga through marriage. But tribal oral history which was used by Judge McCurn, who is also married to an Indian, in court to reach decisions based on "evidence" pertaining to a 200 year old land claim doesn't go back that far for Sworldt.

We pick on each other in fun, but we're serious about it. Even though Sworldt does not smoke, I think his wife does. He says he doesn't have anything to gain. Choice of words is important. He may have something to lose, such as the cost of paying taxes on cigs for his wife. Oddly enough, loss of civil and Constitutional rights doesn't seem to enter his philosophy.


I am rolling on the floor laughing my a-- off.Thanx i needed that.

First you are getting into personal business which i respected you enough not to do to you. But seems you want to get personal.

second as i said my wife is part indian,again i was honest enough to say it.However she is not related to any NY tribe. She gains nothing from ANY tribe.Nor does she want to.

Third my wife does NOT smoke just another lie from your lips. As you told several here.

Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: trump
Rich Tallcot,

If I make a monetary donation to UCE, there is no sales tax involved.

If I purchase any item from UCE, you charge sales tax on that item and then remit the sales tax to the state.

Is this correct?


Sworldt, Rich says this is correct. I know taxes can be confusing. I tried to make it as simple as possible. I hope this helps.


Heres the point a donation is tax free.Anything you buy from the UCE is seen as a donation thus dodging the remitting of sales tax.Whether it be a shirt, a sign or whatever else. The money you pay is seen as a donation. Now i maybe wrong and if i am all they have to do is post their NYS Sales Cert.. Remember by law it is suppose to be made available to the public.If your a business owner you already know this.

Thus makes my point. They established a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY to dodge taxs to complain of those who also don't pay their share in taxes.

What we advocated for with the SENECA CAYUGA was in essence the collection of taxes,The ability of local law enforcement to enforce the laws on their property along with millions more paid DIRECTLY to local goverment so the state couldn't hold it back. Thousands of jobs for local residents. And alot more that would have benefited EVERYBODY not just one side. But it would be accomplished through economic development and agreements.

What you may or may not know is Dick Talcot had a standing invitation to attend ALL meetings. Not because it was felt he had a right to do. More because everything was to be kept open to everybody.However Dick refused to attend. i believe the words were no deals ever with any indian.However his wife did attend so he still had knowledge of the meetings and what took place.

I also believe EVERYBODY should pay their share.But i believe in agreements The UCE wants to end Indian Sovernighty in short end indian rights. I DO NOT believe anybobies rights should be ended.

Do to this issue coming between Dick and his wife he has an axe to grind with the indians.

Remember you started this. I was respecting your right to privacy.

In short we both want people to share in the burden,however we VERY MUCH disagree as how to get there.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 11:39 AM

Everybody wants to remember it is not the indian who will pay the taxes it is you that will pay.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 11:49 AM

Trump: Dicks biggest problem with me is i have the balls to stand up to the almighty UCE.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Trump: Dicks biggest problem with me is i have the balls to stand up to the almighty UCE.


I don't know Dick, never met him. But my problem with you is that you think the Indians should have an unfair tax advantage over simliar businesses. That makes no sense in our economic system in the USA. All I see is the UCE arguing for what is right regarding this economic system of equal taxation for all. Anything else is ridculous.

From what I see is that the UCE would go out of business if the Indians paid their taxes. What reason would they have for continuing to exist? I see no reason to insult them by calling them almighty. Looks to me like they are accomplishing a lot right now.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:04 PM

Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.


Your group is the joke. You say all you want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

By the way when you start calling people names all you do is show your own stupidity.

The fact remains you are doing the same thing you accuse the indians of TAX EVASION through exploiting loop holes.

You might call me stupid, but even i would realize to make sure i wasn't doing the same thing i'm accusing someone else of.

BTW No you never gave me your number.


Let us examine your track record of all the times that you said either the land claim was a done deal in the Cayugas' favor and it was not, the Seneca-Cayugas' casino was a done deal and it was not, etc. You are the one that lacks any credibility. You cannot even complete a cogent thought or rationalization of why UCE's tax status is even comparable to the Cayugas. All of your argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious.


Here you go just more dribble from yet another TAX EVADER.

By the way i NEVER said the S.C. casino was a done deal.
Oh wait you brought up a good point the Seneca Cayugas are incorporated and where willing to pay ALL TAXES unlike the UCE whos using tax loop holes.

Now just so you can't say i never helped you all you need to do is scan your tax cert. and post it.

As far as credability goes we'll let everybody decide for themselves. As i have nothing to gain.

Ok Dick your puppet master will let you speak again.


SWORLDT - APPLES and ORANGES! Even if you do not agree with what the UCE stands for or believes in, how can you compare them to the native americans who choose to sell gas, cigarettes, and open casinos on their "sacred" land.

The UCE's basic argument is equal treatment for all, how can YOU argue that equality is wrong? You claim the UCE is using the same tax loopholes as the Indians, WRONG. The Indians tax loopholes are based on race. On the other hand, the UCE's taxbreaks (if they even use or have any-that is your claim sworldt) are available to anyone that chooses to go through the proper "red tape" and not based on race.

I do not see the UCE making millions, making threats to EVICT property owners, buying thousands of acres from which the money came from the sale of CIGS and GAS. The day the UCE starts doing this, which is the day H*LL freezes over, I will no longer support their stance. The Cayugas proved the only reason they were in business was for the the sale of CIGS! That was their ultimate money making machine, they could care less about selling your staple items, although some would consider CIGS a staple item.

I also dont buy the argument that the native americans were here first. My ancestors were not here when this stuff happened, yet I am forced to pay for something that happened 200 years ago? GIVE ME A BREAK. When I have to buy LAND CLAIM INSURANCE upon purchasing my house, I think there is something VERY wrong with the picture! The native americans that play the race card CAN and NEED to find a way to live with the other people that share this land. Saying things such as, "We have our foot in the door and we are going to kick it wide open" only irritates people.

You are entitled to your own opinion, which you expressed many times your hatred for the UCE. I can see why people would be mad if they smoke or because NYS state is ridiculous with taxes. Those are separate issues. NYS has a long way to go to make this state more resident friendly. I would support the native americans 100% if they were trying to lobby for lower gas taxes or cig taxes (even though I dont smoke) but for them to play the race card and not follow the laws that every other CIGARETTE retailer has to, is just wrong. So, I am not sure if RT reminds you of someone who beat you as a kid or what the problem is but your argument is WEAK and WEAK is giving you much credit.


So let me understand this. You say it is ok to dodge taxes which puts a bigger burden on all as long as it is only a little and you agree.I say make EVERBODY pay the same no matter what no excuses. Find me that group and i'm interested.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:12 PM

Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Dick: Whats wrong can't answer questions on your own. What a joke.


You are the joke. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. You repeatedly raise this point and get shot down every time you do, but you are not intelligent enough to realize it. This comes down to a single point. Until such time as the Cayugas or any other Indian nation or tribe registers and is incorparated in the same manner and for the same purposes as UCE you simply cannot compare the two.


Your group is the joke. You say all you want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

By the way when you start calling people names all you do is show your own stupidity.

The fact remains you are doing the same thing you accuse the indians of TAX EVASION through exploiting loop holes.

You might call me stupid, but even i would realize to make sure i wasn't doing the same thing i'm accusing someone else of.

BTW No you never gave me your number.


Let us examine your track record of all the times that you said either the land claim was a done deal in the Cayugas' favor and it was not, the Seneca-Cayugas' casino was a done deal and it was not, etc. You are the one that lacks any credibility. You cannot even complete a cogent thought or rationalization of why UCE's tax status is even comparable to the Cayugas. All of your argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious.


Here you go just more dribble from yet another TAX EVADER.

By the way i NEVER said the S.C. casino was a done deal.
Oh wait you brought up a good point the Seneca Cayugas are incorporated and where willing to pay ALL TAXES unlike the UCE whos using tax loop holes.

Now just so you can't say i never helped you all you need to do is scan your tax cert. and post it.

As far as credability goes we'll let everybody decide for themselves. As i have nothing to gain.

Ok Dick your puppet master will let you speak again.


SWORLDT - APPLES and ORANGES! Even if you do not agree with what the UCE stands for or believes in, how can you compare them to the native americans who choose to sell gas, cigarettes, and open casinos on their "sacred" land.

The UCE's basic argument is equal treatment for all, how can YOU argue that equality is wrong? You claim the UCE is using the same tax loopholes as the Indians, WRONG. The Indians tax loopholes are based on race. On the other hand, the UCE's taxbreaks (if they even use or have any-that is your claim sworldt) are available to anyone that chooses to go through the proper "red tape" and not based on race.

I do not see the UCE making millions, making threats to EVICT property owners, buying thousands of acres from which the money came from the sale of CIGS and GAS. The day the UCE starts doing this, which is the day H*LL freezes over, I will no longer support their stance. The Cayugas proved the only reason they were in business was for the the sale of CIGS! That was their ultimate money making machine, they could care less about selling your staple items, although some would consider CIGS a staple item.

I also dont buy the argument that the native americans were here first. My ancestors were not here when this stuff happened, yet I am forced to pay for something that happened 200 years ago? GIVE ME A BREAK. When I have to buy LAND CLAIM INSURANCE upon purchasing my house, I think there is something VERY wrong with the picture! The native americans that play the race card CAN and NEED to find a way to live with the other people that share this land. Saying things such as, "We have our foot in the door and we are going to kick it wide open" only irritates people.

You are entitled to your own opinion, which you expressed many times your hatred for the UCE. I can see why people would be mad if they smoke or because NYS state is ridiculous with taxes. Those are separate issues. NYS has a long way to go to make this state more resident friendly. I would support the native americans 100% if they were trying to lobby for lower gas taxes or cig taxes (even though I dont smoke) but for them to play the race card and not follow the laws that every other CIGARETTE retailer has to, is just wrong. So, I am not sure if RT reminds you of someone who beat you as a kid or what the problem is but your argument is WEAK and WEAK is giving you much credit.


So let me understand this. You say it is ok to dodge taxes which puts a bigger burden on all as long as it is only a little and you agree.I say make EVERBODY pay the same no matter what no excuses. Find me that group and i'm interested.

Sorry for the double post i'm fighting my puter.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Trump: Dicks biggest problem with me is i have the balls to stand up to the almighty UCE.


I don't know Dick, never met him. But my problem with you is that you think the Indians should have an unfair tax advantage over simliar businesses. That makes no sense in our economic system in the USA. All I see is the UCE arguing for what is right regarding this economic system of equal taxation for all. Anything else is ridculous.

From what I see is that the UCE would go out of business if the Indians paid their taxes. What reason would they have for continuing to exist? I see no reason to insult them by calling them almighty. Looks to me like they are accomplishing a lot right now.


That is your opinion and you are entitled to hold it.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:37 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
... What we advocated for with the SENECA CAYUGA was in essence the collection of taxes,The ability of local law enforcement to enforce the laws on their property along with millions more paid DIRECTLY to local goverment so the state couldn't hold it back. Thousands of jobs for local residents. And alot more that would have benefited EVERYBODY not just one side. But it would be accomplished through economic development and agreements...




If this was such a great deal why did it vanish?
Why did the tribe fail to supply to needed reports to the local government?

You failed to say that the tribe was going to put this land into trust and all taxes and laws would be not be applied.
Did one not learn from the Illegal operations of Turning Stone?


.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Everybody wants to remember it is not the indian who will pay the taxes it is you that will pay.


Are you just learning this?




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Everybody wants to remember it is not the indian who will pay the taxes it is you that will pay.


Is Okla still fighting his own tribal government?


.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
... What we advocated for with the SENECA CAYUGA was in essence the collection of taxes,The ability of local law enforcement to enforce the laws on their property along with millions more paid DIRECTLY to local goverment so the state couldn't hold it back. Thousands of jobs for local residents. And alot more that would have benefited EVERYBODY not just one side. But it would be accomplished through economic development and agreements...




If this was such a great deal why did it vanish?
Why did the tribe fail to supply to needed reports to the local government?

You failed to say that the tribe was going to put this land into trust and all taxes and laws would be not be applied.
Did one not learn from the Illegal operations of Turning Stone?


.



BZ What are you smoking. Did you even read the post.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 01:34 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Everybody wants to remember it is not the indian who will pay the taxes it is you that will pay.


Is Okla still fighting his own tribal government?


.


I have no idea what okla is doing as i live in Auburn,NY. Have you ever fought a politican.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
... What we advocated for with the SENECA CAYUGA was in essence the collection of taxes,The ability of local law enforcement to enforce the laws on their property along with millions more paid DIRECTLY to local goverment so the state couldn't hold it back. Thousands of jobs for local residents. And alot more that would have benefited EVERYBODY not just one side. But it would be accomplished through economic development and agreements...




If this was such a great deal why did it vanish?
Why did the tribe fail to supply to needed reports to the local government?

You failed to say that the tribe was going to put this land into trust and all taxes and laws would be not be applied.
Did one not learn from the Illegal operations of Turning Stone?


.



BZ What are you smoking. Did you even read the post.


Are you saying that the SC would never put the land into trust?

you must be kidding?

.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
What you may or may not know is Dick Talcot had a standing invitation to attend ALL meetings. Not because it was felt he had a right to do. More because everything was to be kept open to everybody.However Dick refused to attend. i believe the words were no deals ever with any indian.However his wife did attend so he still had knowledge of the meetings and what took place.

Do to this issue coming between Dick and his wife he has an axe to grind with the indians.
HAH HAH HAW HO HOHOHOHO hah whoaaaahhh - OMG LOL ROFLMAO That was good. But don't try quoting anyone else or speaking for UCE.

I remember the meetings. It was a desperate attempt during the land claim lawsuit by one of two parties that were suing us which were at odds with each other to try a cut a casino deal for a settlement with one of them.

Considering the land claim, which your side since lost, was a bogus lawsuit to try an cut deals to open the door for trust applications to follow; considering we were being sued by this deal maker; considering only the federal government has the authority to cut deals on a government to government basis; considering the Seneca-Cayuga could not make a deal to settle the land claim without the New York Cayuga agreeing and being a party to it; considering the Seneca-Cayuga repeatedly made deals with Oklahoma and then did not comply; considering I knew we would beat the land claim if we just forced the courts to rule; considering our ancestors had already made eight final negotiated settlements; and considering the only final settlement would be a ruling by SCOTUS, the whole idea of attending such meetings was stupid.

My words were simply "I'm not going to waste my time." I recall that Connie went to a couple meetings just to watch the show, but the "issue" was never an issue and we never disagreed on it.

But that was a REALLY good fairy tale.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/15/08 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
What you may or may not know is Dick Talcot had a standing invitation to attend ALL meetings. Not because it was felt he had a right to do. More because everything was to be kept open to everybody.However Dick refused to attend. i believe the words were no deals ever with any indian.However his wife did attend so he still had knowledge of the meetings and what took place.

Do to this issue coming between Dick and his wife he has an axe to grind with the indians.
HAH HAH HAW HO HOHOHOHO hah whoaaaahhh - OMG LOL ROFLMAO That was good. But don't try quoting anyone else or speaking for UCE.

I remember the meetings. It was a desperate attempt during the land claim lawsuit by one of two parties that were suing us which were at odds with each other to try a cut a casino deal for a settlement with one of them.

Considering the land claim, which your side since lost, was a bogus lawsuit to try an cut deals to open the door for trust applications to follow; considering we were being sued by this deal maker; considering only the federal government has the authority to cut deals on a government to government basis; considering the Seneca-Cayuga could not make a deal to settle the land claim without the New York Cayuga agreeing and being a party to it; considering the Seneca-Cayuga repeatedly made deals with Oklahoma and then did not comply; considering I knew we would beat the land claim if we just forced the courts to rule; considering our ancestors had already made eight final negotiated settlements; and considering the only final settlement would be a ruling by SCOTUS, the whole idea of attending such meetings was stupid.

My words were simply "I'm not going to waste my time." I recall that Connie went to a couple meetings just to watch the show, but the "issue" was never an issue and we never disagreed on it.

But that was a REALLY good fairy tale.


No fairy tales here.Oh by the way my side as you called it was both sides indian and non indian. Nobody ever claimed it was to settle any claim only to get something for EVERYONE while we could. But your reaction tells the real story.

While i got your attention post that cert. already if you don't the UCE is as good as admitting i was right. You have a goodnight. Blood pressure pills are a good place for you to start.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/16/08 03:22 PM

[quote> sworldt: while we could.]

Your deals were as empty as the Lakeside cigarette stands are now.

"While we could" are your key words and they are ALSO as empty as the Lakeside cigarette stands are now.

NO land claim settlement, NO trust land, NO casino. That's three strikes - yer out.

You remind me of the latest anthrax scare in Buffalo.

Buffalo Bills football practice was delayed nearly two hours late this morning after a player reported finding an unknown white powdery substance on the practice field.

Head coach Dick Jauron immediately suspended practice while police and federal agents were called to investigate. After a complete analysis, FBI forensic experts determined that the white substance, unknown to the players, was the goal line.

Practice was resumed this afternoon after special agents decided the team was unlikely to encounter the substance again.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/17/08 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
... Nobody ever claimed it was to settle any claim only to get something for EVERYONE while we could...



You mean to have the Oklahoma SC tribe scam NY land that they no longer had rights to.



.


BYE SWORLDT ;\) ;\) ;\)




.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/19/08 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[quote> sworldt: while we could.]

Your deals were as empty as the Lakeside cigarette stands are now.

"While we could" are your key words and they are ALSO as empty as the Lakeside cigarette stands are now.

NO land claim settlement, NO trust land, NO casino. That's three strikes - yer out.

You remind me of the latest anthrax scare in Buffalo.

Buffalo Bills football practice was delayed nearly two hours late this morning after a player reported finding an unknown white powdery substance on the practice field.

Head coach Dick Jauron immediately suspended practice while police and federal agents were called to investigate. After a complete analysis, FBI forensic experts determined that the white substance, unknown to the players, was the goal line.

Practice was resumed this afternoon after special agents decided the team was unlikely to encounter the substance again.


Are you high. I still haven't seen you post The UCE Tax Cert. But it was a nice attempt to take the focus elsewhere. So post it already unless you don't have one. lmao
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/19/08 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
[quote> sworldt: while we could.]

Your deals were as empty as the Lakeside cigarette stands are now.

"While we could" are your key words and they are ALSO as empty as the Lakeside cigarette stands are now.

NO land claim settlement, NO trust land, NO casino. That's three strikes - yer out.

You remind me of the latest anthrax scare in Buffalo.

Buffalo Bills football practice was delayed nearly two hours late this morning after a player reported finding an unknown white powdery substance on the practice field.

Head coach Dick Jauron immediately suspended practice while police and federal agents were called to investigate. After a complete analysis, FBI forensic experts determined that the white substance, unknown to the players, was the goal line.

Practice was resumed this afternoon after special agents decided the team was unlikely to encounter the substance again.


Criminal charges delayed in cigarette case
by Scott Rapp / The Post-Standard
Thursday December 18, 2008, 4:20 PM
Auburn, NY -- Don't expect criminal charges to be prosecuted any time soon in the Cayuga Indian Nation cigarette tax-evasion case.

That's the bottom line of a legal conference held this week in Rochester.

At the meeting, Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann and Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart both agreed to not push their criminal cases any further until a related civil matter is decided in January.

The delay didn't sit well with Budelmann, who along with Swinehart, had hoped to present criminal charges in their respective cases this month.

"Sure, this troubles me. They're using their great untaxed income to try to thwart the criminal justice system and tie it up in civil court. It's just disturbing," Budelmann said today.

Judge Nancy Smith, of the Fourth Department Appellate Division, persuaded both district attorneys to postpone prosecution until after the appellate court rules on the Cayugas' request for a preliminary injunction. The court will consider the Cayugas' request on Jan. 13.

However, the injunction -- if granted -- would block Budelmann and Swinehart from filing criminal charges in their cases until after the court rules on the nation's appeal in their cigarette tax dispute with both counties. The appeal process will likely take several months.

Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas, said the nation has every right to defend itself by using the civil court system.

"The Cayuga Nation has the same right to avail itself of the justice system as anyone. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous....If the issue was as simple as these prosecutors claim, the judge would not have asked that they wait until the full court convenes next month," Alcott said from a prepared statement.

The Cayugas are appealing last week's decision by state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher, of Rochester. He ruled that the Cayugas do not have sovereign rights -- as the nation contends -- to continue selling tax-free cigarettes at their stores in Union Springs and town of Seneca Falls.

Fisher's decision also opened the door for prosecutors to pursue felony tax-evasion charges against the nation.

On Nov. 25, sheriff's deputies in both counties seized all 1,700 cartons of cigarettes from the two stores for non payment of state excise taxes, which amounted to about $485,000.

The Cayugas claim they have sovereign rights to sell the tax-free cigarettes because the stores lie on land that was in their original homeland around the north end of Cayuga Lake.

Article:
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/criminal_charges_delayed_in_ci.html


And it goes on and on.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/19/08 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
... Nobody ever claimed it was to settle any claim only to get something for EVERYONE while we could...



You mean to have the Oklahoma SC tribe scam NY land that they no longer had rights to.



.


BYE SWORLDT ;\) ;\) ;\)




.


And why do you think i'm going anywhere
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/19/08 08:52 PM

BTW Dick: If im going to ask for legal advise it would be from a real attorney and not a wannabe such as yourself.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/20/08 10:38 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
BTW Dick: If im going to ask for legal advise it would be from a real attorney and not a wannabe such as yourself.
You don't need legal advice. You need a reading comprehension class.

The law specifically states the ONLY way a casino could have been granted is as the result of a land claim settlement. We couldn't settle a claim with one of two parties that were suing us if we wanted to. The two parties suing us would have had to agree and they were at odds with each other. You can spin your deal any way you want. But that's the fact. Aside from the fact it's past history and you lost.
Posted by: spazmanspins

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/22/08 01:12 PM

Why should Indians not have to pay taxes?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/22/08 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: spazmanspins
Why should Indians not have to pay taxes?
Big difference between tribal and non-tribal Indians. Non-tribal Indians pay all taxes. Tribal Indians pay all taxes if they do not live on a reservation.

The reservation system was set up to prevent Indians from becoming homeless. Those maintaining tribal status on reservations do not pay property taxes because they do not own the land. The reservation system has become convoluted, used and abused, mostly by our own congressmen. It came down to the determination between competent and incompetent Indians. Those determined competent were allowed lands in fee because they were competent enough to pay their own way.

One Example: http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/vol4/html_files/v4p0552.html
Indians, except as to homesteads as hereinafter provided, but by trust patent to minors and incompetent Indians, the force and legal effect of the trust patents to be as is prescribed by the General Allotment Act of February 8, 1887, as amended (Twenty-fourth Statutes at. Large, page 388). Priority of selection, up to three hundred and twenty acres, is hereby given to the members of the tribe who have as yet received no allotment on the Crow Reservation, and thereafter all members enrolled for allotment hereunder shall in all respects be entitled to equal rights and privileges, as far as possible, in regard to the time, manner, and amount of their respective selections: Provided, That Crow Indians, who are found to be competent, may elect, in writing, to have their allotments, except as herein provided, patented to them in fee.

Those that live on reservations have also been afforded the exemption of not having to pay sales tax. This is possibly an extension of generosity to those who have not proven can care for themselves. BUT, they HAVE to live ON a reservation to qualify for sales tax exemptions. If they purchase goods OFF reservation, they can avoid the sales tax by filling out the following form and giving it to the seller. The seller then has to ship the product to the reservation address, but can add shipping and handling fees which would normally be more than the sales tax.
http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/1996/apcert/dtf801_496.pdf

The avoidance of paying sales taxes by Indians carrying cards claiming exemption are con jobs to scam the seller. The sellers will STILL have to pay the sales taxes unless they have the form on file for the sale.

In the case of the Lakeside stores, they were the equivalent of large scale bookies operating so blatant openly and opened when the land claim was still the hot topic that it took a while to call their bluff. Remember, the state is not on our side.

Basically, there is no reason why Indians nowadays should be tax exempt. But, if the laws are adhered to and not blatantly ignored by the state, those that qualify for tax exemptions would not negatively impact anyone.

All UCE is asking for is to have the laws on the books enforced. The law does not permit them to sell goods untaxed to anyone other than members of their own tribe.

I know, this begs more questions. The basic problem is federal Indian policy as promoted and sustained by our own congressmen and senators. The secondary problem is our own state government.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/23/08 10:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
BTW Dick: If im going to ask for legal advise it would be from a real attorney and not a wannabe such as yourself.
You don't need legal advice. You need a reading comprehension class.

The law specifically states the ONLY way a casino could have been granted is as the result of a land claim settlement. We couldn't settle a claim with one of two parties that were suing us if we wanted to. The two parties suing us would have had to agree and they were at odds with each other. You can spin your deal any way you want. But that's the fact. Aside from the fact it's past history and you lost.


I didn't lose anything, because i never had anything to gain. The losers will be county residents as this continues. you have your opinion and you are entitled to it. However unlike you i don't try to interpet the law as it would require many years of study. I instead left it up to the LAWYERS involved from BOTH sides. But do tell me have you posted that SALES TAX CERT.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/23/08 10:37 PM

Dick: I also see your members are looking to sue the tribes. Maybe they will hire you as their lawyer. That would be a laugh.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 12:37 PM

Hello Sworldt. I see you are still making up stories and accusing all of your opposition of being UCE members.

I told you I would show you the sales tax number when you actually purchased something from UCE.

Have you filed an amended tax return to disclaim all the donations that you claimed to have donated to UCE?

Yes, you definitely lost. You lost your arguments, you lost your predictions, and you got caught in your lies and your misunderstandings. Have you signed up for a reading comprehension class yet?
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 01:05 PM

"The losers will be county residents as this continues."

I'm a SC resident, and I'm in favor of paying whatever it takes to bring this to a fair resolution. The county budget is over 56 million anyway; if they have to bleed some more out of us, it won't make much difference; we're already bled almost out.

It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 01:09 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.


Right. The Indians are just being totally riduclous. I can't believe that we have let them get away with this all these many years now.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.


Right. The Indians are just being totally riduclous. I can't believe that we have let them get away with this all these many years now.


Keep in mind the indians resorted to starting a fire on the NYS Thruway to shut it down last time. So most of our professional lifetime politicians are afraid to do anything.

[img][/img]
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.


Right. The Indians are just being totally riduclous. I can't believe that we have let them get away with this all these many years now.


Keep in mind the indians resorted to starting a fire on the NYS Thruway to shut it down last time. So most of our professional lifetime politicians are afraid to do anything.

[img][/img]


And it is riduculous that our politicans are afraid to enforce the law.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 05:01 PM

This is getting ridiculous!!!

Judge issues restraining order against Indian cigarette law

Buffalo, New York (WSYR-TV) - A State Supreme Court judge has issued a restraining order which prevents the new Indian cigarette law from being enforced until a hearing next month.

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/story/Ju...3g.cspx?rss=112

Our proffesional lifetime politicians can raise our taxes in a heartbeat but just can't seem to get the indian taxes in order. What a joke!!
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/24/08 05:20 PM

Basically there is no way the new law can be enforced anymore can the one on the books could until enforcement implementation is spelled out with provisions to exempt tribal Indians on the reservations. They could merely issue coupons, which was all that was required of the prior law on the books. But the state hasn't done anything yet.

The Cayuga situation is totally separate from this. Local jurisdiction applies here and in Oneida.

Furthermore, the violations enforced here do not apply to the tribal exemptions. The initial law violated was that of possession. The next step establishes jurisdiction. January 12th is the hearing. The judge will likely not rule on that day.

Meanwhile, the tax paying competitors are enjoying a very Merry Christmas.
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/25/08 12:29 PM

Judge halts cigarette law enforcement
by By John Stith / The Post-Standard Thursday December 25, 2008, 10:05 AM
A judge in Erie County has temporarily barred the state from enforcing a new law requiring the collection of taxes on cigarettes sold on Indian reservations.

State Supreme Court Justice Rose H. Sconiers signed the temporary restraining order Wednesday. It orders state officials to appear in her court Jan. 27 to show why Sconiers shouldn't issue an injunction against the tax collection.

Margaret A. Murphy, a lawyer representing Day Wholesalers of Tupper Lake and Scott Maybee, a Seneca Nation tobacco distributor, asked the court for the restraining order.

On Dec. 15, Gov. David A. Paterson signed the law that requires cigarette wholesalers to certify to manufacturers that they are complying with laws requiring payment of excise taxes on cigarettes sold to non-Indians. The excise taxes are $27.50 a carton outside of New York City, and $42.50 a carton in the city. The law would take effect Feb. 14.

Murphy said state tax law exempts Native Americans from paying taxes on cigarettes but the state has never set up a mechanism to rebate any cigarette taxes paid by Native Americans. State courts have ruled that the state cannot enforce its cigarette tax law until it sets up the rebate process, she said.

"We went before Judge Sconiers to say .¤.¤. the tax department and the state have to do more before it can put this one law into effect," Murphy said.Morgan Hook, spokesman for Paterson, said the state will comply with the judge's order while it reviews the decision.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon E. Budelmann said the judge's ruling will not affect tax evasion cases against the Cayuga Indian Nation filed by Cayuga and Seneca counties.


Two days before Thanksgiving, sheriff's deputies in Cayuga and Seneca counties seized more than 17,000 cartons of cigarettes from two stores operated by the Cayugas. The counties said the stores were not on reservation land, and state tax law prohibits state residents from possessing more than two cartons of untaxed cigarettes.

District attorneys in both counties have said they would present their cases to county grand juries.

Attorney Joseph Heath, who represents the Onondaga Nation, said the judge's ruling shows the tax issue is not as simple as Cayuga and Seneca counties claim.

"These policies can't be settled by individual counties. .¤.¤. We have to slow down and stop throwing indictments at people," Heath said.

Dan French, the lawyer who represents the Cayuga Indian Nation, said the Cayugas are peaceful and law-abiding people who have "repeatedly asked federal state and local officials to join in negotiating a global settlement of these issues."

Mark F. Emery, director of media relations Oneida Nation, said the court action highlights the need to resolve the legal issues surround the Indian nations' claims of sovereignty."The decision underscores, yet again, that legal attacks against sovereign Indian nations do not work," he said. "Hopefully this decision finally puts all of the parties in a frame of mind to negotiate resolutions of these issues."
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/27/08 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
Attorney Joseph Heath, who represents the Onondaga Nation, said the judge's ruling shows the tax issue is not as simple as Cayuga and Seneca counties claim.


The two Cayuga smokeshops are not on a reservation.

Originally Posted By: reilley

"These policies can't be settled by individual counties. .¤.¤. We have to slow down and stop throwing indictments at people," Heath said.



The law is the law. Enforce it.


Originally Posted By: reilley

Dan French, the lawyer who represents the Cayuga Indian Nation, said the Cayugas are peaceful and law-abiding people who have "repeatedly asked federal state and local officials to join in negotiating a global settlement of these issues."


Law-abiding???????
Can you say felony?
Global? Will China need to be at the negotiating table?

Originally Posted By: reilley

Mark F. Emery, director of media relations Oneida Nation, said the court action highlights the need to resolve the legal issues surround the Indian nations' claims of sovereignty."The decision underscores, yet again, that legal attacks against sovereign Indian nations do not work ," he said. "Hopefully this decision finally puts all of the parties in a frame of mind to negotiate resolutions of these issues."



Does Mr. Emery know that Turning Stone and the OIN smokeshops are not on an indian reservation and the same fate could come to the OIN with Raids and closures?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/27/08 07:49 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
State Supreme Court Justice Rose H. Sconiers signed the temporary restraining order Wednesday. It orders state officials to appear in her court Jan. 27 to show why Sconiers shouldn't issue an injunction against the tax collection...


The state officials should cite state/national security as a reason for collecting the taxes. Stop terrorism.



.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/27/08 08:04 AM

They want to negotiate because they know if they obeyed the laws they would be shut down. SURE they want to negotiate because they have no legal right to MOST of what they are doing!!! I would want to negotiate too!!!

Dan French, the lawyer who represents the Cayuga Indian Nation, said the Cayugas are peaceful and law-abiding people who have "repeatedly asked federal state and local officials to join in negotiating a global settlement of these issues."
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/27/08 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Hello Sworldt. I see you are still making up stories and accusing all of your opposition of being UCE members.

I told you I would show you the sales tax number when you actually purchased something from UCE.

Have you filed an amended tax return to disclaim all the donations that you claimed to have donated to UCE?

Yes, you definitely lost. You lost your arguments, you lost your predictions, and you got caught in your lies and your misunderstandings. Have you signed up for a reading comprehension class yet?


Here you go again avoiding giving a straight answer to a simple question.because you have not posted it yet i will assume you the UCE don't remit sales tax. SHAME on you for not helping to support the system. While you scream others should pay their share.

But because i believe in letting people decide for themselves. Here is a link to help those make an educated choice. The UCE is formed as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY you have the right to view their records.To FOIL those records follow the link.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/foil.html

Let the PEOPLE decide.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/27/08 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
"The losers will be county residents as this continues."

I'm a SC resident, and I'm in favor of paying whatever it takes to bring this to a fair resolution. The county budget is over 56 million anyway; if they have to bleed some more out of us, it won't make much difference; we're already bled almost out.

It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.


As i am a CC tax payer. I didn't want to just win. I wanted jobs and economic development for ALL in the area.Because that opportunity is gone we will be the losers.

as a father of 4 children and 12 grand children i all too well understand the need to create new jobs whenever possible and not be controlled through fear or ignorance.

I am also a Vietnam Veteran who served in country for my country and now of those 4 children i have to watch as 2 of them leave for basic training next month and 1 grand child considering doing the same. As my children ask me what they should do about the military i have always told them it has to be their choice. They are the ones who have to live with their choice not me,but i would be proud and support them no matter what choice they made.

The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

Here you go again avoiding giving a straight answer to a simple question.because you have not posted it yet i will assume you the UCE don't remit sales tax. SHAME on you for not helping to support the system. While you scream others should pay their share.

But because i believe in letting people decide for themselves. Here is a link to help those make an educated choice. The UCE is formed as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY you have the right to view their records.To FOIL those records follow the link.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/foil.html

Let the PEOPLE decide.


Post a link where I can view the tribes records?




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


Did you want your children/grandchildren to be casino card dealers?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: trump

[img][/img]



Is this how the tribes wanted to negiotate last time?
Did they ever pay NY state for the NY trooper cars that they burned?

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 03:59 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


Did you want your children/grandchildren to be casino card dealers?



.






Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


Did you want your children/grandchildren to be casino card dealers?



.








Take a trip to Niagara Falls, NY. It's a dump. It was a dump before the casino and it's still a dump. The casino pays crummy wages with a high turnover. They just layed of 200 people. No indians get layed off just US citizens. [img][/img] Then let me know about economic development. The downtown accross from the casino is desserted with empty and closed stores and restaurants.
Posted by: Sam the Sham

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

As i am a CC tax payer. I didn't want to just win. I wanted jobs and economic development for ALL in the area.Because that opportunity is gone we will be the losers.

as a father of 4 children and 12 grand children i all too well understand the need to create new jobs whenever possible and not be controlled through fear or ignorance.

I am also a Vietnam Veteran who served in country for my country and now of those 4 children i have to watch as 2 of them leave for basic training next month and 1 grand child considering doing the same. As my children ask me what they should do about the military i have always told them it has to be their choice. They are the ones who have to live with their choice not me,but i would be proud and support them no matter what choice they made.

The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


And how, exactly, does setting up two parallel systems of government (and taxation) answer any problem?
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 08:45 PM

"No indians get layed off just US citizens"

Indians are US citizens.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/28/08 10:10 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
... But because i believe in letting people decide for themselves. Here is a link to help those make an educated choice. The UCE is formed as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY you have the right to view their records.To FOIL those records follow the link.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/foil.html

Let the PEOPLE decide.



STATE OF NEW YORK

DIVISION OF TAX APPEALS

________________________________________________

In the Matter of the Petition :

of :

BARRY E. SNYDER, SR. :
D/B/A SENECA HAWK DETERMINATION
: DTA NO. 809458
for Revision of a Determination or for Refund of Sales
and Use Taxes under Articles 28 and 29 of the Tax Law :
For the Period January 1, 1989 through December 31, 1989.
________________________________________________

Petitioner, Barry E. Snyder, d/b/a Seneca Hawk, Routes 5 and 20, Irving, New York 14081, filed a petition for revision of a determination or for refund of sales and use taxes under Articles 28 and 29 of the Tax Law for the period January 1, 1989 through December 31, 1989.

A hearing was held before Jean Corigliano, Administrative Law Judge, at the offices of the Division of Tax Appeals, 500 Federal Street, Troy, New York, on June 2, 1998 at 9:15 A.M., with all briefs to be submitted by December 21, 1998, which date began the six-month period for the issuance of this determination. Petitioner appeared by Toohey & Dowd, P.C. (Timothy J. Toohey, Esq., of counsel). The Division of Taxation appeared by Steven U. Teitelbaum, Esq. (Michael B. Infantino, Esq., of counsel).

ISSUE

I. Whether the Division of Taxation and Finance is authorized to impose sales tax liabilities on petitioner based upon petitioner's sales of motor fuel and cigarettes on an Indian reservation.

II. Whether the Division of Taxation and Finance is authorized to impose penalties for petitioner's failure to file sales tax returns and pay the tax required to be shown on those returns.

FINDINGS OF FACT

1. Petitioner, Barry E. Snyder, is a member of the Seneca Nation of Indians and the owner of a retail store operated under the name "Seneca Hawk." Petitioner's store is located on the Cattaraugus Indian Reservation in New York State. A variety of items are sold in the retail store including gasoline, diesel motor fuel, cigarettes and other tobacco products.

2. On or about January 12, 1990, Raymond F. Kenneson, Jr., a tax auditor in the Division of Taxation ("Division"), sent a letter to petitioner scheduling an audit appointment on March 14, 1990. Petitioner was asked to have available for the auditor's inspection all books and records pertaining to his motor fuel and tobacco product purchases for the period January 1, 1989 through December 31, 1989. Petitioner's attorney, Timothy J. Toohey, responded to this request in a letter dated February 20, 1990. As pertinent, that letter states: "Please be advised that books and records will not be produced for audit on March 1, 1990, or at any other time."

3. Because petitioner declined to cooperate with the Division's audit, the Division estimated petitioner's taxable sales and sales tax liabilities based upon the information available to it. The quantity of motor fuel and tobacco products purchased by petitioner was determined from the sales records of unrelated third parties. These records showed that those goods were sold to petitioner State tax-free. Prices charged by petitioner for motor fuel and tobacco products were estimated using information garnered by Division investigators and from third-party publications. Selling prices were applied to purchases to determine taxable sales. Petitioner was given credit for exempt sales made to Indians residing on the Cattaraugus Reservation. These sales were also estimated using third-party information regarding average per capita consumption of cigarettes and motor fuel and the number of persons residing on the Cattaraugus Reservation.

4. Based on its audit findings, the Division issued a Notice of Determination to petitioner, dated January 14, 1991, assessing taxes due in the amount of $1,402,596.27 plus penalty and interest . Petitioner then filed a petition alleging that the Commissioner of Taxation and Finance ("Commissioner") has no authority to assess petitioner for taxes due on retail sales of motor fuel and cigarettes made by him. He based this claim on the theory that the State is without jurisdiction to impose or collect taxes on sales made by an American Indian on an Indian Reservation. Alternatively, petitioner claimed that the Commissioner improperly calculated tax, penalty and interest. At hearing, petitioner stipulated that he was raising no issues regarding the conduct of the audit or the methodology which was used to calculate the taxes due.

CONCLUSIONS OF LAW

A. Section 1105 of the Tax Law imposes a sales tax on the retail sale of a broad range of tangible personal property and services, including motor fuel and tobacco products. The sales tax on motor fuel and cigarettes is designed to be passed through the chain of distribution to the ultimate consumer (see, Tax Law §§ 1102, 1103). Sales made to certain Indian nations or tribes residing in New York State are exempt from sales tax, where the tribe or Indian nation is the ultimate user or consumer of the product or service (Tax Law § 1116[a][6]). The tax exempt Indian nations and tribes are the: Cayuga, Oneida, Onondaga, Poospatuck, Saint Regis Mohawk, Seneca, Shinnecock, Tonawanda and Tuscarora. Sales by individual Indian vendors residing and selling on a qualified reservation are not covered by the statutory exemption for sales by or to Indians nations and tribes; therefore, an individual Indian vendor operating on an Indian or tribal reservation is subject to the same registration, tax collection and record-keeping requirements that apply to other vendors (see, Tax Law §§ 1131-1137). Moreover, individual Indian vendors may be required to collect taxes on sales to non-Indians, although the taxes cannot be recovered directly from the tribe (Snyder v. Wetzler, 193 AD2d 329, 603 NYS2d 910, affd 84 NY2d 941, 620 NYS2d 813).

B. The Division rightly relies on the Court of Appeals decision in Snyder to support its position that petitioner was required by statute to collect sales tax from his non-Indian customers and to remit such tax to the State. Petitioner was the plaintiff in Snyder. The Division had assessed sales tax against him on retail sales made to non-Indians asserting that he was required but failed to collect and remit the tax. Petitioner sought a declaratory judgement that the State was without authority to impose or collect taxes on sales made within the Indian reservation. Petitioner based his challenge on the following arguments:

(1) the historical development of the immunity of Indian lands from taxation, (2) the prohibition against State taxation of Indians by the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution and Federal law, and (3) that New York lacks jurisdiction to collect taxes from non-Indians by assessments made against an Indian. (Snyder v. Wetzler, supra, 603 NYS2d at 912.)

These are the same arguments made by petitioner in this proceeding. They were soundly rejected by the Appellate Division, Third Department. The Court summarized the relevant United States Supreme Court opinions upon which it based its decision. In Moe v. Confederated Salish & Kootenai Tribes of Flathead Reservation (425 US 463, 48 L Ed 2d 96), the Supreme Court upheld a Montana statute which required the precollection of tax imposed upon the non-Indian purchaser of cigarettes. The Supreme Court found that a tax on that portion of receipts attributable to on-reservation sales to non-Indians is not proscribed by the Federal Indian trader statutes (25 USC § 261 et seq) enacted pursuant to the United States Constitution. The Supreme Court noted that the non-Indian purchaser is the beneficiary of untaxed cigarettes and that wholesale violations of the tax law would go unchecked "without the simple expedient of having the retailer collect the sales tax from non-Indian purchasers" (Snyder v. Wetzler, supra, 603 NYS2d at 914, quoting Moe v. Confederated Salish & Kootenai Tribes of Flathead Reservation, supra, at 482, 48 L Ed 2d at 111).

In Washington v. Confederated Tribes of Colville Indian Reservation (447 US 134, 65 L Ed 2d 10), the Supreme Court upheld regulations of the State of Washington which required Indian tribal sellers of cigarettes to collect sales taxes from on-reservation sales to non-Indians. Five years later, in 1985, the Supreme Court held that a California excise tax on the distribution of cigarettes in which the tax falls on non-Indian purchasers could be enforced; in addition, the Court held that the burden of collecting the tax could be imposed on the Indian tribe (California Bd. of Equalization v. Chemehuevi Indian Tribe, 474 US 106, 88 L Ed 2d 9) .

Finally, the Appellate Division addressed the opinion of the United States Supreme Court in Oklahoma Tax Commn. v. Citizen Band Potawatomi Indian Tribe (498 US 505, 112 L Ed 2d 1112), summarizing that opinion as follows:

[T]he United States Supreme Court held that the doctrine of sovereign immunity did not excuse a tribe from all obligations to assist in the collection of a validly imposed Oklahoma tax on sales of cigarettes made at a convenience store owned and operated by the tribe on land held in trust for it by the Federal Government . The court observed that under Moe v. Confederated Salish & Kootenai Tribes of Flathead Reservation (supra) and Washington v. Confederated Tribes of Colville Indian Reservation (supra), the requirement that tribal sellers collect the taxes from non-Indian purchasers was a minimal burden justified by the State's interest in assessing payment of lawful taxes. In response to Oklahoma's complaint that tribal protection from suit under principles of sovereign immunity gave the State a "right without any remedy", the Supreme Court said, "We have never held that individual agents or officers of a tribe are not liable for damages in actions brought by the State . . ." (Snyder v. Wetzler, supra, 603 NYS2d at 914-915, quoting Oklahoma Tax Commn. v. Citizen Band Potawatomi Indian Tribe (supra, 112 L Ed 2d at 1123) .

The Appellate Division rejected Snyder's contention that the Moe, Washington, and Potawatomi cases are distinguishable because the treaties between New York and the six Iroquois Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy are unique in that ownership of their lands is original, absolute and enforceable, unlike those in the other states. In sum, the Appellate Division held that the Commissioner has the authority to impose sales tax on the retail sales to the non-Indian customers of Indian retailers doing business on reservations and that an Indian retailer may be required to collect such tax. (Snyder v. Wetzler, supra.)

The decision of the Appellate Division was affirmed by the Court of Appeals which, however, did not consider petitioner's contentions that the State tax statutes violate either the Supremacy Clause or New York law finding that these arguments were not preserved on appeal (Snyder v. Wetzler, supra, 84 NY2d at 942, 620 NYS2d at 814).

Here, petitioner claims that neither the Snyder decision nor the Supreme Court decision in Department of Taxation and Finance of New York v. Millhelm Attea and Bros., Inc. (512 US 61, 129 L Ed 2d 52) are binding in this proceeding, because those decisions did not address his contentions that the State tax statutes and regulations violate the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution and New York law and merely held that the statutes and regulations then in effect did not violate the Commerce Clause or the Indian trader statutes enacted pursuant thereto. This argument is unpersuasive. The Supreme Court cases summarized by the Appellate Division in Snyder form the basis for the Appellate Division's conclusion that individual Indian vendors may be required by the State to collect taxes on sales to non-Indians. In Potawatomi, the United States Supreme Court held that the doctrine of tribal sovereign immunity does not excuse a tribe from all obligations in assisting the State to collect sales taxes. The Potawatomis' tribal immunity notwithstanding, the Court held that Indian retailers on an Indian reservation may be required to collect sales taxes on sales to non-Indians (Oklahoma Tax Commn. v. Potawatomi Tribe, supra, 112 L Ed 2d 1122). Since petitioner has not elaborated on his Supremacy Clause argument, I find the decision of the Supreme Court dispositive. Moreover, petitioner failed to cite any cases, specific treaties provisions or laws that are violated by imposition of sales tax liabilities on his sales to non-Indians. Accordingly, I find that the Division properly determined that petitioner is required to collect sales taxes applicable to retail sales to non-Indians and is liable for sales tax due on purchases made by non-Indians on the Cattaraugus Reservation .

C. In 1988, the Division adopted a series of regulations to facilitate the collection of sales and excise taxes on reservation sales. The 1988 regulations allowed Indian tribes, traders and on-reservation retailers to purchase and sell a specific quantity of cigarettes and motor fuel for which the taxes had not been prepaid in accordance with sections 1102 or 1103 of the Tax Law. The allotted amounts were to be based on estimates of demand for otherwise taxable goods by Indian consumers purchasing on a qualified reservation (see, 20 NYCRR 561.17 [prepaid sales tax on motor fuel]; 562.2 [prepaid sales tax on diesel motor fuel]; 564.2 [prepaid sales tax on cigarettes]). A rather complex system of dealer registration, exemption certificates and record keeping was imposed on Indian traders, qualifying Indian nations and tribes and Indian retailers. In the absence of an agreement between an exempt Indian nation or tribe and the Division (and there have been no agreements), registered distributors were required to obtain permission from the Division prior to each sale and delivery of fuel or cigarettes on a reservation. The implementation of these regulations was stalled pending the disposition of litigation challenging the validity of the motor fuel and cigarette tax regulations (see, Department of Taxation and Finance of New York v. Millhelm Attea and Bros., Inc., supra; Herzog Bros. Trucking, Inc. v. State Tax Commn. 69 NY2d 536, 516 NYS2d 179, vacated and remanded 487 US 1212, 101 L Ed 2d 898, on remand 72 NY2d 720, 536 NYS2d 416). Ultimately, the United States Supreme Court held that the State's regulations were not preempted by the Federal Indian Trader Statutes ( Department of Taxation and Finance of New York v. Millhelm Attea and Bros., Inc., supra).

Following the Attea Bros. decision, enforcement of the regulations was suspended pending discussions between the State and several Indian Nations regarding the implementation of those regulations in light of the Supreme Court's decision (see, Matter of New York Ass'n of Convenience Store Owners v. Urbach, 92 NY2d 204, 677 NYS2d 280). On April 28, 1998, the Division repealed the regulations that were challenged in Attea Bros. stating in its Notice of Adoption as follows:

Recent events have shown that the implementation of the system contained in the existing regulations is inconsistent with the State's objectives with regard to both the sovereignty of the Indian nations and to the general welfare of the people of this state. Additionally, statutory deficiencies impede our ability to administer the system contained in the existing regulations . . . finally, repeal of these regulations is in keeping with federal policies promoting tribal sovereignty. These factors make apparent the necessity for the repeal of these regulations. (20 NY Reg, April 29, 1998, Issue 17, Book 1, at 22-24.)

Petitioner argues that the repeal of the regulations and the reasons given for the repeal in the Division's Notice of Adoption supports its position that the regulations placed impermissible regulatory and tax burdens directly on tribes and individual Indians who are immune from State tax. The Division asserts that the repeal of the regulations is irrelevant because the regulations were in effect during the audit period.

At the outset, I would note that there is no evidence that the assessment in issue results from the implementation of the repealed regulations. The overall design of the regulations was intended to cut off the flow of tax-free motor fuel and cigarettes to Indian retailers on reservations. The quantity of tax free motor fuel and cigarettes purchased by petitioner in 1989 is evidence enough that the regulations were not being enforced during this period and are irrelevant to the assessment issued to petitioner. This assessment was calculated using a purchase markup audit. The audit diverged from a traditional audit in that the Division estimated the probable demand for cigarettes and motor fuel of qualified Indian consumers living on the Cattaraugus Reservation and provided a credit for these sales. Otherwise, the audit was conducted using routine audit methodologies. Petitioner has not challenged any aspect of the audit itself. Consequently, it must be assumed that the Division's estimates of sales, credits for Indian consumers and sales tax due were reasonable.

D. Petitioner has offered no rationale for canceling the penalties assessed against him other than his primary argument that the State lacks jurisdiction to assess taxes or penalties against him. Based on the decision in Snyder v. Wetzler (supra), I find that petitioner is liable for the assessed taxes, penalties and interest.

E. The petition of Barry E. Snyder, Sr., d/b/a Seneca Hawk is denied, and the Notice of Determination issued on January 14, 1991 is sustained.

DATED: Troy, New York
February 11, 1999



/s/ Jean Corigliano
ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE








----------------------------------------------------------------


$1,402,596.27 plus penalty and interest

Interest and penalties from 1989 until now must be large.




.





Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/29/08 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
As i am a CC tax payer. I didn't want to just win. I wanted jobs and economic development for ALL in the area.Because that opportunity is gone we will be the losers.

as a father of 4 children and 12 grand children i all too well understand the need to create new jobs whenever possible and not be controlled through fear or ignorance.



You must be right sworldt because there are not any jobs in the area

Are your kids over qualified for these jobs?

This is just a partial listing and represents only ONE page out of over 30 pages for jobs in the general area.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Entry Level Production
Contemporary Personnel Staffing is looking for applicants the Auburn area. Apply for excellent production and manufacturing positions in the Auburn and Elbridge area at the Elbridge Library. Apply every Wednesday from 10am-2pm. "World Class Manufacturing... Contemporary Personnel Staffing Inc. US - NY, Elbridge 12/29/08

Full Time Internet Programmer PHP
* Work with project managers to implement features that enhance the overall user experience * Design code modules that scale well under heavy load * Interface with graphic designers to assist with front-end development * Work with QA analysts to resolve... SlickRicky Internet Designs US - NY, Syracuse 12/29/08

Loan Analyst
This position includes an hourly wage and commissions. Successful candidate will have the ability to communicate with dealers and lenders in indirect lending environment. Analyze current credit data of individuals and collateral value to determine... OneSource Financial US - NY, Auburn 12/29/08

SRCTec
SRCTec currently seeks Temporary Assemblers. Selected candidates must have ability to complete the assembly of the most complex electronic and mechanical assemblies. Must display superior knowledge of skills such as, identification of electronic and... Contemporary Personnel Staffing Inc. US - NY, East Syracuse 12/29/08

Full & Part Time Labor positions
Looking for candidates who are looking for a lot of hours/overtime, construction/mechanical background experience helpful but not necessary. The ideal candidate will have a flexible schedule and be able to work up to 50+ hours per week, Monday through... Auburn, NY US - NY, Waterloo 12/29/08

Rep, Route Service II
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Duties: Manage an enterprise SharePoint farm. Participate in SharePoint 2007 deployment project. Migrate content from SharePoint 2003 to 2007. Support social networking deployment. Provide collaboration consulting for IS and business clients. Skills:... The Computer Merchant, Ltd. US - NY, Syracuse 12/28/08

MS Project Server Adminsitrator
Duties: Install, configure and maintain Microsoft Project server for a large scale, geographically dispersed project. Skills: Microsoft Project Server expertise (certification preferred), good working knowledge of Windows Server and Windows components... The Computer Merchant, Ltd. US - NY, Syracuse 12/28/08

HUNT Real Estate Agent
Real Estate is Often a Natural Fit For Those Who Are Successful in the Business World. Have You Ever Wondered if You Would Thrive as a Real Estate Agent? At HUNT Real Estate ERA, we think it makes a lot more sense to "dip your toe in" first before jumping... HUNT Real Estate ERA US - NY, Baldwinsville 12/28/08

Project Manager
Project Manager:Location: Syracuse, New YorkDuration: 3+monthsCandidates must complete a drug test as well as a background investigationDuties: Work closely with PM of vendor contracted to do Identity Management strategy Perform initial high level planning... The Computer Merchant, Ltd. US - NY, Syracuse 12/28/08

Scientific Application Specialist
Large company located in NJ is seeking a Scientific Application Specialist for a 6 month assignment for an immediate start date. Requirements Scientific knowledge or experience (analytical chemistry, process development etc.) strongly preferred. Familiar... TSR Consulting Services, Inc. US - NY, Syracuse 12/28/08

Lotus Notes Developer
Large company located in NY is seeking a Lotus Notes Developer for a 1+ month assignment for an immediate start date. Requirements MUST have the ability to author detailed technical documentation. Will create applications from detailed specifications... TSR Consulting Services, Inc. US - NY, Syracuse 12/28/08

Full Time Internet Programmer PHP
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Sr IT Analyst
Location: Syracuse NYType: ContractDuration: 4 Months Duties: Interviews clients, conducts feasibility and return on investment studies, defines system requirements and prepares resource estimates and schedules. Designs computer systems or enhancements... The Computer Merchant, Ltd. US - NY, Syracuse 12/28/08

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About Us Time Warner Cable owns and manages cable systems passing approximately 26 million homes in 33 states. The Company has 14.6 million customers for its various products, including video, high-speed data and residential telephone. This includes approximately... Time Warner US - NY, Syracuse 12/27/08

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Posted by: MorganHills

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/29/08 06:44 PM

do they have strawberry shortcake?
Posted by: SFisWonderful

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/29/08 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
"The losers will be county residents as this continues."

I'm a SC resident, and I'm in favor of paying whatever it takes to bring this to a fair resolution. The county budget is over 56 million anyway; if they have to bleed some more out of us, it won't make much difference; we're already bled almost out.

It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.


As i am a CC tax payer. I didn't want to just win. I wanted jobs and economic development for ALL in the area.Because that opportunity is gone we will be the losers.

as a father of 4 children and 12 grand children i all too well understand the need to create new jobs whenever possible and not be controlled through fear or ignorance.

I am also a Vietnam Veteran who served in country for my country and now of those 4 children i have to watch as 2 of them leave for basic training next month and 1 grand child considering doing the same. As my children ask me what they should do about the military i have always told them it has to be their choice. They are the ones who have to live with their choice not me,but i would be proud and support them no matter what choice they made.

The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.

Since you favor the native americans having their own sovereign land, jurisdiction, and government, I would like to know which military would you want your kids to join? Since they want their own government would this entitle them to their own military so they can start bombing us from a mile down the road because they dont like THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS decisions?

So which militart SWORLDT would your kids join? The Cayugas, Oneidas, Onondagas, Poospatucks, Saint Regis Mohawks, Senecas, Shinnecocks, Tonawandas, Tuscaroras or the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S military?

There would be many choices if everyone had the same logic you have SWORLDT.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
"The losers will be county residents as this continues."

I'm a SC resident, and I'm in favor of paying whatever it takes to bring this to a fair resolution. The county budget is over 56 million anyway; if they have to bleed some more out of us, it won't make much difference; we're already bled almost out.

It would be a lot easier if the tribes would just follow the law and pay their fair share, but I think most of us are ready to play it their way, if they want to do it the hard, ugly way.


As i am a CC tax payer. I didn't want to just win. I wanted jobs and economic development for ALL in the area.Because that opportunity is gone we will be the losers.

as a father of 4 children and 12 grand children i all too well understand the need to create new jobs whenever possible and not be controlled through fear or ignorance.

I am also a Vietnam Veteran who served in country for my country and now of those 4 children i have to watch as 2 of them leave for basic training next month and 1 grand child considering doing the same. As my children ask me what they should do about the military i have always told them it has to be their choice. They are the ones who have to live with their choice not me,but i would be proud and support them no matter what choice they made.

The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.

Since you favor the native americans having their own sovereign land, jurisdiction, and government, I would like to know which military would you want your kids to join? Since they want their own government would this entitle them to their own military so they can start bombing us from a mile down the road because they dont like THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS decisions?

So which militart SWORLDT would your kids join? The Cayugas, Oneidas, Onondagas, Poospatucks, Saint Regis Mohawks, Senecas, Shinnecocks, Tonawandas, Tuscaroras or the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S military?

There would be many choices if everyone had the same logic you have SWORLDT.


You don't read very well do you. Or are you so filled with hate you only see what you want. The LOCAL GOVERMENT would have remained total control. Can you understand me now.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Sam the Sham
Originally Posted By: sworldt

As i am a CC tax payer. I didn't want to just win. I wanted jobs and economic development for ALL in the area.Because that opportunity is gone we will be the losers.

as a father of 4 children and 12 grand children i all too well understand the need to create new jobs whenever possible and not be controlled through fear or ignorance.

I am also a Vietnam Veteran who served in country for my country and now of those 4 children i have to watch as 2 of them leave for basic training next month and 1 grand child considering doing the same. As my children ask me what they should do about the military i have always told them it has to be their choice. They are the ones who have to live with their choice not me,but i would be proud and support them no matter what choice they made.

The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


And how, exactly, does setting up two parallel systems of government (and taxation) answer any problem?


Again the only goverment would be local goverment,but hey whatever gets you through the night.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 08:51 PM

BTW my logic is simple. We are being destroyed by taxs. OUR POLITICANS are responsible for OVER TAXATION of its citizens.If i am going to go after anyone it would be OUR ( U.S. ) goverment for taxs. Put the blame where it belongs. Ask yourself WHY are there so many taxs on tobacco to begin with. The goverment says they are to protect the health of the smoker. That is a load of B.S. if the y were concerned about health they would outlaw the cancer causing chemicals.

Their only concern is their own GREED.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt

Here you go again avoiding giving a straight answer to a simple question.because you have not posted it yet i will assume you the UCE don't remit sales tax. SHAME on you for not helping to support the system. While you scream others should pay their share.

But because i believe in letting people decide for themselves. Here is a link to help those make an educated choice. The UCE is formed as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY you have the right to view their records.To FOIL those records follow the link.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/foil.html

Let the PEOPLE decide.


Post a link where I can view the tribes records?




.



There not set up as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


Did you want your children/grandchildren to be casino card dealers?



.


Do you prefer WELFARE.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 08:59 PM

DICK: I haven't seen you post the UCE's Sales Tax Cert..
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 12/30/08 09:00 PM

Post deleted by FL1 Mod 2
Posted by: Ovidian

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 09:57 PM

Everyone that is opposed is racist, right? That card gets a lot of play.
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/30/08 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Ovidian
Everyone that is opposed is racist, right? That card gets a lot of play.


Nope not at all. Anyone who says they want equal rights for ALL and than only go after 1 race.Thats what makes them racist. Not to mention the fact they set up a charity that does NOT remit sales tax to complain of others who don't collect and remit.

And always remember this is my opinion. The same as you are entitled to your i'm entitled to mine.
BTW Talcot first played the race card.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

You don't read very well do you. Or are you so filled with hate you only see what you want. The LOCAL GOVERMENT would have remained total control. Can you understand me now.



It is you that cannot read.

What military will your kids join?


(ps-the local government are the ones that raided the smokeshops to ENFORCE THE LAWS)



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:30 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt


Again the only goverment would be local goverment,but hey whatever gets you through the night.


Your statement contradicts your spin.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:33 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
...If i am going to go after anyone it would be OUR ( U.S. ) goverment for taxs.



Sorry pal but you are a traitor so leave OUR government out of you spin.

Originally Posted By: sworldt


Their only concern is their own GREED.



Yes - the casino shopping tribes are greedy.


.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:35 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt

Here you go again avoiding giving a straight answer to a simple question.because you have not posted it yet i will assume you the UCE don't remit sales tax. SHAME on you for not helping to support the system. While you scream others should pay their share.

But because i believe in letting people decide for themselves. Here is a link to help those make an educated choice. The UCE is formed as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY you have the right to view their records.To FOIL those records follow the link.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/foil.html

Let the PEOPLE decide.


Post a link where I can view the tribes records?




.



There not set up as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY.



Show us the tribes records.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:37 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: sworldt
The only reason i even posted this is because as a community our jobs are gone.Whether it be NAFTA or just NYS taxs our youth are finding it impossible to stay in the area.

I believe we need to find new answers to our problems.


Did you want your children/grandchildren to be casino card dealers?



.


Do you prefer WELFARE.


You are the one promoting a casino. Ain't it good enough for your kin to work there?

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
DICK: I haven't seen you post the UCE's Sales Tax Cert..


When will you post the tribes?

Is this your only "come back"?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 12/31/08 05:44 AM

Originally Posted By: sworldt

Nope not at all. Anyone who says they want equal rights for ALL and than only go after 1 race.Thats what makes them racist. Not to mention the fact they set up a charity that does NOT remit sales tax to complain of others who don't collect and remit.

And always remember this is my opinion. The same as you are entitled to your i'm entitled to mine.
BTW Talcot first played the race card.


Sorry that you were a bad boy this past year and Santa gave you coal. Make a better effort next year and you may not be so grumpy.

Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 12/31/08 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: sworldt
Post deleted by FL1 Mod 2
Posted By: sworldt Anyone who says they want equal rights for ALL and than only go after 1 race.Thats what makes them racist.

Sworldt: your reading comprehension level is too low for me to type slowly enough. Your statement is as contradictory as being a sovereign ward. It is you that refuse to accept equality for ALL, both Indian and non-Indian. UCE is comprised of both. CERA is comprised of both. Both organizations work toward equality under the law regardless of race.

To that end we work with our elected representatives and hold them accountable to the laws and Constitution. The small percentage of Indians that have claimed tribal status want superiority above the law.

Your promotion of racial favoritism through tribalism and the removing of Constitutional rights for both Indian and non-Indian is what does not hold water.

Most Indians are not tribal members. The New York Cayuga tribe claimed a membership of 150 in New York State and a total of 400 in the U.S. during the land claim trial. When casino deals looked promising, another hundred joined the tribe. There are 1,513 Cayuga in the U.S., but two thirds of them are not tribal members.

As little as five years ago out of the 150 in New York, three different factions all claimed to be the government.

The BIA guessed, because they could not find any records of the tribe ever existing before 1977, that the New York Cayuga tribe must still have a hierarchal government because they never reorganized under the Indian Reorganization Act, like your favorite tribe the Seneca-Cayuga did. The other Iroquois tribes all voted to reject the Act, noting that the Oneida tribe is in Wisconsin.

But the New York Cayuga and New York Oneida tribes did not vote. Why? Because they were not tribes. They were merely dissident factions. The Cayuga tribe is in Canada.

Through bureaucratic favoritism, without ever going through a recognition procedure or Congressional Act, they were merely added to the list in 1977. They could not qualify to pass the seven requirements to become a tribe if they had to.

What we're dealing with is a factionalized gang that has pulled off the bluff of the century. The fact is the two dissident factions of their ancestors who sold the three million acre territory to New York State in 1789 and received eight final settlements after selling the use rights to the state lands set aside for them since didn't even have the authority to do that because the Cayuga tribe and tribal government is in Canada. New York just dealt with who they could find and the dissident faction of a tribe couldn't agree on who was in charge then either. That's because they weren't a tribe.

That's not even considering the Cayuga sold their lands to Great Britain in 1702 and the colonists took the land from Great Britain.

At least you finally grasped the phrase that UCE wants equal rights for ALL. Its unfortunate you convoluted the phrase UCE wants equal rights UNDER THE LAW for ALL regardless of race. Because it is only with your claims and lies of what UCE states that you can continue to promote just the opposite and attempt to feel righteous for doing so.

Everything you say needs an interpreter.

Posted By: SFisWonderful: So which military SWORLDT would your kids join? The Cayugas, Oneidas, Onondagas, Poospatucks, Saint Regis Mohawks, Senecas, Shinnecocks, Tonawandas, Tuscaroras or the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S military?

There would be many choices if everyone had the same logic you have SWORLDT.

Reply by Sworldt: You don't read very well do you. Or are you so filled with hate you only see what you want. The LOCAL GOVERMENT would have remained total control. Can you understand me now.

Interpretation: Sworldt's kids are joining the LOCAL GOVERNMENT'S military. It must be the Warrior Society. That's the main Iroquois gang.

[Re: bluezone] Post a link where I can view the tribes records?

Reply by Sworldt: There not set up as a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY.

Interpretation: The County has the tribes records now - LOL

Posted By: bluezone Did you want your children/grandchildren to be casino card dealers?

Reply by Sworldt: Do you prefer WELFARE.

Interpretation: Yes.

Posted By: sworldt Post deleted by FL1 Mod 2

Naughty naughty sworldt. Your true colors are showing. You cannot come up with any cogent argument of law or fact. Oddly enough, loss of civil and Constitutional rights doesn't seem to enter your philosophy.

Your lies of statements of what you dream UCE is, does, and say like donations are tax deductable (wrong), sales taxes have to be paid on donations (wrong), or UCE established a NOT FOR PROFIT CHARITY to dodge tax[e]s (wrong), we do not remit sales taxes on sales (wrong). That's four more strikes, you are out again plus one.

Organizations incorporate to protect the membership from liability. Otherwise members could be sued for irresponsible actions of an officer. That is aside from your tax obsession being totally illogical. Why should UCE members care if taxes had to be paid when none of us get paid a dime? Unlike the tribes you favor, UCE complies with the law.

I have nothing to gain but equality under the law.

There's no helping you. But Have a Happy New Year anyway.
\:\)
Posted by: sworldt

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 01/01/09 07:03 PM

Dick: I see you got the MODERATOR TO DELETE my post where i posted my opinion of your hate group. How much did that cost you.It just proves my point.

MODERATOR my posts are always my opinion. There was nothing in my post for to delete other than the TRUTH. and you proved it. Why bother posting if you can't post YOUR OPINION.

Answer me Moderator or BAND ME.
Posted by: FL1 Mod 2

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 01/01/09 09:10 PM

There's a difference between an opinion and racist remarks.
There's your answer.. and it's BAN not band, bye.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 01/01/09 09:56 PM

There are differences between opinions and lies.

Sworldt Lie: donations to UCE are tax deductable

Sworldt Lie: sales taxes have to be paid on donations

SWorldt Lie: UCE incorporated to dodge taxes

Sworldt Lie: UCE does not remit sales tax on sales

Sworldt Lie: Walmart and Goulds Pumps do not pay full sales tax.

Reply: That concept comes from what the state allows businesses to keep to process the paperwork. Goulds Pumps is a manufacturer. I was not aware they sold retail and selling wholesale does not involve sales taxes.

Sworldt Lie: Nothing is finalized or settled.

Reply: The land claim was finalized and settled in 2005.

Sworldt Lie: The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.

Sworldt Lie: Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating. The same as NY State or any other state.

Reply: Sworldt cannot separate the difference between land status and being a ward or the difference between a tribal gang and a state.

Sworldt Lie: You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist.

Reply from the judge: the sales in question did not occur on "a qualified reservation" within the meaning of Tax Law §471-e(1)(a), or "Indian country" within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. §1151(a)

Is that why they closed their bingo hall? Is that why the gas pumps were tested? Is that why the tribe had to comply with all other laws except they refused to pay the sales/excise taxes? Is that why they paid the county fine for selling to minors?

Sworldt Lie: I also see your members are looking to sue the tribes.

Sworldt Lie: The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's.

Reply: Sworldt does not know the difference between sales tax, excise tax and property tax.

Sworldt Lie: You say all you [UCE] want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

Sworldt Lie: Do you also realize it has only been withing 60 yrs. or so the tribes had the right to sue the goverment.

Sworldt Lie: Unlike you i don't make money off this.

Sworldt Lie: I also believe EVERYBODY should pay their share.

Sworldt Lie: Do to this issue coming between Dick and his wife he has an axe to grind with the indians.

Sworldt Lie: Dicks biggest problem with me is i have the balls to stand up to the almighty UCE.

Sworldt Lie: No fairy tales here.

Sworldt Lie: BTW Talcot first played the race card.

Reply: All I have ever done is explain the laws, which Sworldt does not like exposed.

Sworldt Lie: The almighty UCE Gets FL1 to censor any adverse opinion of their HATE GROUP. Answer me Moderator or BAND ME.

Reply by FL1 Mod 2: There's a difference between an opinion and racist remarks. There's your answer.. and it's BAN not band, bye.

I guess Sworldt got caught with a race card up his sleeve. All of Sworldt's argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious. He expressed many times his hatred for the UCE. Sworldt has exposed himself for what he is. I could have corrected his English in almost every post he made, but I chose not to make it personal. We can only hope that he seeks help.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 01/02/09 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: sworldt
Post deleted by FL1 Mod 2



There's no helping you. But Have a Happy New Year anyway.
\:\)


There is no hope for swordlt as he will never get it.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 01/02/09 08:47 AM

Originally Posted By: FL1 Mod 2
There's a difference between an opinion and racist remarks.
There's your answer.. and it's BAN not band, bye.


It appears that others see you as you are.

Bye sworldt.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 01/07/09 02:55 PM

next week
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/10/09 11:09 AM

Ruling on cigarette taxes could come next week
by Scott Rapp Friday January 09, 2009, 4:52 PM

A state appellate court will rule possibly next week on whether the Cayuga Indian Nation can be criminally charged for not paying cigarette taxes.

The Cayugas are seeking a preliminary injunction to block Cayuga and Seneca counties from temporarily prosecuting them on tax-evasion charges.

Today, lawyers for the counties submitted court arguments in which they said the Cayugas should have to pay taxes like any other business in the state.


"They don't have any sovereign rights over this land. It's not a reservation and it's not Indian country. It is land owned like anybody. They have to pay taxes and it's subject to local laws," said Dan Moore, a Rochester lawyer representing the counties.

The Cayugas filed for the injunction after State Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher ruled on Dec. 9 that the nation does not have sovereign rights to sell tax-free cigarettes at its LakeSide Trading stores in Union Springs and town of Seneca Falls.

In his ruling, Fisher also said the counties could pursue felony tax-evasion charges against the nation.

The Cayugas immediately appealed Fisher's decision and also asked the Fourth Department Appellate Division to grant the preliminary injunction until it rules on the appeal.

Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas, said the nation has sovereign rights to sell tax-free cigarettes at its gas stations, which lie in the nation's ancestral homeland around the north end of Cayuga Lake.

"With all due respect we believe the interpretation of the terms "reservation" and "sovereign land" have been misconstrued.¤.¤.¤.We believe that in the interest of fairness the status quo must be maintained until the court can review the nation's appeal," Alcott said.

Both he and Moore said they hope the appellate court rules on the injunction next week. A decision on the appeal is not expected for months.

The nation had initially asked Fisher to issue an injunction that would have allowed the Cayugas to resume selling tax-free cigarettes. The Cayugas sought the legal relief after both counties raided their two stores and seized all 17,600 unstamped cartons of cigarettes on Nov. 25.

The counties, acting on orders from their respective district attorneys, conducted the raids because the Cayugas had not paid state excise tax on them, which amounted to about $485,000.

The nation shut down both stores after the raids.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/10/09 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas, said the nation has sovereign rights to sell tax-free cigarettes at its gas stations, which lie in the nation's ancestral homeland around the north end of Cayuga Lake.


Is that why the tribe shut it down?

Originally Posted By: bluezone

"With all due respect we believe the interpretation of the terms "reservation" and "sovereign land" have been misconstrued.¤.¤.¤.We believe that in the interest of fairness the status quo must be maintained until the court can review the nation's appeal," Alcott said.




Fairness?????
He is funny


Originally Posted By: bluezone

The counties, acting on orders from their respective district attorneys, conducted the raids because the Cayugas had not paid state excise tax on them, which amounted to about $485,000.



Do not forget to bring a check to pay for the $485,000 overdue.


.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/10/09 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Do not forget to bring a check to pay for the $485,000 overdue.
That's just the excise tax. Better add $14,109 in sales tax and multiply the total by at least 12. That's assuming they restock at least once a month. Try six million for a very low estimate.

No wait, when did they open? 2003? Maybe thirty million in lost taxes would be closer. Then add the loss in gas tax on top of that.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/11/09 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
... Maybe thirty million in lost taxes would be closer. Then add the loss in gas tax on top of that.


and penalties/interest.

When the tribe fails to pay the full amount does the county get to seize all their land and assests?

.
Posted by: Dinky Dau

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 08:43 AM

Court rules Cayugas cannot be charged with cigarette tax crimes
by Scott Rapp / The Post-Standard
Thursday January 22, 2009, 6:04 AM

Stephen D. Cannerelli / The Post-Standard, 2008
The Lake Side Trading gas station and convenience store on Route 90 in Union Springs has been closed since it was raided for untaxed cigarettes by sheriff's deputies.Background

Deputies seize cigarettes from Cayuga Indian Nation Stores
Auburn, NY -- A state appellate court on Wednesday ruled the Cayuga Indian Nation cannot be criminally charged for not paying cigarette taxes at its Finger Lakes stores.

The court granted the Cayugas' request for a preliminary injunction, which temporarily blocks Cayuga and Seneca counties from prosecuting them on felony tax-evasion charges.

The decision sets up the possibility for the Cayugas to reopen their LakeSide Trading gas stations and stores in Union Springs and town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer said.

"The Cayuga Nation is reviewing the option of reopening and hopes to make a determination within a matter of days," attorney Daniel French, of Syracuse, said.


The appellate court also ruled that the Cayugas could seek to regain possession of the 17,600 cartons of unstamped cigarettes that were seized by both counties in a Nov. 25 raid.

The Cayugas, which closed both of their stores a day after the raids, are also considering asking court permission to get their cigarettes returned, French said.

"Given their perishable nature, the nation may very well make application," he added.

Rochester lawyer Philip Spellane, who represents both counties, said he was disappointed by the ruling.

He declined further comment other than to say he would review the decision "and figure out what to do with the next step."

The Cayugas requested the preliminary injunction after state Supreme Court Justice Kenneth Fisher ruled on Dec. 9 that the nation does not have sovereign rights to sell tax-free cigarettes at its stores. Fisher also said in his decision that the counties could prosecute the Cayugas on tax-evasion charges.

The nation immediately appealed Fisher's ruling and also asked the appellate court to grant the preliminary injunction until it rules on the appeal.

The appeal is now set to be heard in the court's May 11 term, Spellane said.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann was traveling and declined comment because he said he had yet to see the decision.

"Obviously, it's disappointing if that's true," Budelmann said. Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart was unavailable.

Budelmann and Swinehart ordered the November cigarette raids and said at the time that they planned to present tax-evasion cases to grand juries in their respective counties.

French was happy with the decision.

"The Cayuga Nation is pleased and believes this to be the correct decision and also believes that prosecutions -- given the current state of the law -- are an inappropriate way to try to resolve issues that can and should be negotiated," he said.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/court_cayugas_can_not_be_charg.html
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 10:35 AM

It appears that anyone can open a smokshop and sell illegal untaxed cigs and gas.
If we burned tires would that get Patersons attention?


Posted by: dwarren

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 05:26 PM

The decision is much more limited than reported. It only enjoined prosecution until the court hears and determines the merits of the appeal. It conditioned this injunction on the Cayugas perfecting their appeal on or before February 23, 2009. See: http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/motions/2009/2009_61548.htm
Posted by: reilley

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 05:43 PM

they may reopen soon the news said . it will be intresting to see what happens next. they maybe in court next May or so ...
Posted by: dwarren

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 05:48 PM

According to the Court's order they have until February 23, 2009 to perfect their appeal. This consists of settling or obtaining a stipulation as to the papers that will be the record on appeal, filing 2 copies of the record on appeal and two copies of their brief on appeal and then filing the original record and brief and ten copies of each with the Court with proof of service. If they do this then the court will hear the appeal in the term that begins on May 11, 2009. If they do not do that then the injunction is automatically vacated.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren
...If they do this then the court will hear the appeal in the term that begins on May 11, 2009.


A few more weeks for them to be free before jail time.
Posted by: Gio

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 07:53 PM

unfreaking believeable. This is just crap.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Gio
unfreaking believeable. This is just crap.
I agree. But,

The headline and lead sentence in the Post Standard do not accurately report the decision, stating unequivocally that the CIN "cannot be criminally charged", the lead sentence in its entirely reading: "A state appellate court on Wednesday ruled the Cayuga Indian Nation cannot be criminally charged for not paying cigarette taxes at its Finger Lakes stores". NOT SO !

This is simply a preliminary injunction and its issuance is no surprise. The key omitted and operative language in the order is that they cannot be charged "...pending the hearing and determination of the appeal" and the court sets an expedited process, requiring the Cayuga to perfect that appeal on or before February 23, 2009.

Similarly, the reporting of the portion of the ruling re regaining the property is incomplete and therefore misleading. In fact the order states affirmatively that the "all evidence currently held by respondents regarding these prosecutions shall be maintained in its current condition and location, with the exception that any such evidence seized...may be released in the discretion of the court issuing the warrant [Judge Fisher] upon application to such court, and upon such terms and condition as that court may set."

Everyone should know better than to believe an article in the sub-standard.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/22/09 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


Everyone should know better than to believe an article in the sub-standard.


Ray probably has to approve the article prior.

.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/23/09 04:41 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

Ray probably has to approve the article prior.
That may be closer to the truth than you think. I know the Wisconsin Oneida have a contract with the Green Bay Gazette not to print anything offensive to the tribe.

Newspapers everywhere are feeling the economic crunch. They may not be on reservation lands or tribally owned, but many are controlled one way or another by the local casino tribe.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/23/09 10:43 AM

Is the smokeshop open yet?
Giving out free gas?
Seeing that they bought the place across the road will they now burn tires claiming they own the road like the Senecas did with the thruway?




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/24/09 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: bluezone

Ray probably has to approve the article prior.
That may be closer to the truth than you think. I know the Wisconsin Oneida have a contract with the Green Bay Gazette not to print anything offensive to the tribe.



The sub-standard seems to only print "positive" articles about Ray and his crew.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/24/09 06:20 PM

Will the judge order that the Cayugas pay back all the sales/excise taxes from when the 2 smokeshops first opened?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/24/09 08:58 PM

I am sure that all that should be reclaimed will be asked for the DA. We will have to wait until the Appeals Court has their say in the matter to validate the actions taken before Judge Fisher gets the case back. That will be several months in the process.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/25/09 06:45 AM

Post-raid sales spike
Store owners say Lake Side closing has made huge difference

By DAVID L. SHAW, Finger Lakes Times
Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:11 AM CST

SENECA FALLS — Cigarette sales have surged for area convenience stores since the Cayuga Indian Nation closed its Seneca Falls store Dec. 10.

Owners of four stores have reported a tripling or quadrupling of business since the tribe’s Lake Shore Trading store on Route 89 closed shortly after a Nov. 25 law enforcement raid seized all of their untaxed cigarettes.

Now, the tribe’s lawyers have been able to get a temporary injunction to prevent criminal tax evasion charges until an appeal of the legality of the raid is decided in May or June. The five-judge state Appellate Division Court that granted the injunction also said the Cayugas could seek to have the seized cigarettes returned, if State Supreme Court Judge Kenneth R. Fisher agrees.

If that happens, the Nation may reopen its store.

And that worries non-Indian convenience store owners who’ve benefited from the closure.

Howard Strader, owner of D & M Grocery Store on Swift Street in Waterloo the past 11 years, said the numbers are startling.

“The increase in our business at this little store has been huge,’’ Strader said.

He said when the Lake Side Trading Store was open and selling untaxed cigarettes at deep discounts, his store sold about 165 cartons of cigarettes a week.

Since they closed, he’s been selling an average of 415 cartons a week. Each carton generates $31.20 in pre-paid state excise tax, plus 8 percent sales tax.

Half of that goes to the state and the other half goes to Seneca County.

“That increase has produced an increase in tax to the state from $5,230 to $13,155 a week, a difference of more than $7,000. That’s for one small neighborhood store,’’ Strader said.

He said tobacco customers who come to his store also end up buying other items — milk, soda, beer, snacks and groceries.

He said lottery sales are flat, speculating that smokers are having to pay more for cigarettes and don’t have that extra cash they might spend on tickets.

Strader said his store did $90,200 worth of business in December 2007. In December 2008, that number jumped to $184,000.

“I’ll be bummed out big time if they reopen the Cayuga store and they continue to sell untaxed cigarettes again,’’ Strader said. He said the Cayugas should either pay the same taxes as he does or not be able to reopen and sell untaxed cigarettes, especially in light of a new law signed by the governor.

Jack Kahn runs the Express Gas Plus Convenience Store on Auburn Road in Seneca Falls.

“I have definitely benefited from the Indian store being closed, as have many others in this area. I’d say cigarette sales alone are triple what they were before the store closed,’’ Kahn said.

Gasoline sales are also up slightly, but cigarette sales have generated more profit and sales tax income for the state and county than ever before.

“It would not be fair if they reopened and go back to doing what the judge has said is illegal all over again,’’ Kahn said.

“If they reopen and pay the taxes like everyone else, I have no problem with that,’’ he said. “Or if they exempt all stores from paying the taxes, which isn’t likely.”

Edward Feek, manager of the Nice N’ Easy convenience store on Fall Street, Seneca Falls, said his cigarette business also has tripled since Dec. 10, with other sales also up slightly.

Robert and Mary Plate took over Jean Jean’s Store on Washington Street in Waterloo 21⁄2 years ago.

Rob Plate said it was never a big volume store while Lake Side Trading was open, making enough to pay the bills and earn a small profit.

“But we’ve done very well since they closed. Cigarette sales in particular,’’ Plate said.

The store did about $300 worth of cigarette sales a week before Dec. 10. It’s been about $1,200 a week since.

“Sales of soda, beer, snacks are also up. Our profits are up. We’re seeing new smokers and smokers who left us to go to the tribe’s store coming back,’’ Plate said.

Daniel French, a lawyer for the Cayuga Nation, said the tribe’s plans for the store, along with a similar store in Union Springs, Cayuga County, may be announced Monday.

Options are to apply to Fisher for an order to return the seized cigarettes or to reach an agreement with Seneca and Cayuga county officials to return the items or buy new stock.

Sheriff’s deputies seized more than 17,000 cartons of untaxed cigarettes in the raids on the two Lake Side Trading stores.

“It would be wrong to go back to the way it was,’’ said Plate. “It’s not a level playing field. We’d lose back what we’ve gained.”

dshaw@fltimes.com
Posted by: Dinky Dau

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/25/09 08:27 PM

Supreme Court rejects land-into-trust case
Thursday, January 22, 2009
Filed Under: Law | Trust

The administration of President Barack Obama received some good news on Wednesday with the end of a potentially troublesome land-into-trust case.

The U.S. Supreme Court, without comment, declined to hear MichGo v. Kempthorne, a lawsuit that tested the ability of the federal government to acquire land for tribes. The order from the high court came only a few minutes after Ken Salazar, a former senator from Colorado, started his job as the Secretary of the Interior Department.

The move effectively settles a debate that has haunted Interior as far back as the Clinton administration. For years, tribal foes have argued that the land-into-trust provisions of the Indian Reorganization Act are unconstitutional.

Every court that has taken up that question has rejected it. So the action yesterday indicates the justices aren't interested in overturning the 1st, 2nd, 8th, 9th, 10th and the D.C. circuits, whose combined jurisdictions cover nearly every tribe in the country.

One tribe, the Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians, was particularly pleased with the latest development. The tribe's efforts to create a reservation and open a casino were hindered for years by a group called Michigan Gambling Opposition.

"We are very happy with the Supreme Court's decision to reject MichGO's appeal," said Chairman D.K. Sprague. "It is, however, bittersweet because the tribe and thousands of its supporters were irrevocably harmed by this lawsuit."

Despite the favorable news, another land-into-trust issue remains in limbo. Last fall, the Supreme Court heard Carcieri v. Kempthorne, a case that could change the way Interior deals with tribes that gained federal recognition after the passage of the IRA in 1934.

Department of Justice lawyers who were appointed by President George W. Bush filed a brief with the Supreme Court last month that anticipated more hurdles for tribes like the Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band, whose recognition became final in 1999. The brief said Interior would have to determine whether a post-1934 tribe was under federal supervision despite not being formally recognized.

Sprague answered that question yesterday by citing a treaty Chief Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish signed with the U.S. in 1795. The Bush-authored brief said treaties were one way to determine whether a recently recognized tribe qualifies for the land-into-trust process.

But the Obama administration may take a different approach to addressing the post-1934 issue if Carcieri goes against tribal interests. Or the Supreme Court could rule that the IRA applies to all tribes, regardless of the date of recognition.

Between 1887, the start of the allotment period, and 1934, tribes lost 90 million acres of their land. Since the IRA, only about 5 million acres has been reacquired in trust.

Tribes complain that the land-into-trust process takes too long to complete, in part because existing regulations do not impose deadlines on Interior. A recent report from the Government Accountability Office cited an application that took nearly 20 years for the Bureau of Indian Affairs to resolve.

Litigation can also tie up an application for years, as was the case with three Michigan tribes, including the Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band, also known as the Gun Lake Tribe. All three lawsuits were resolved in favor of tribal interests.

Briefs in MichGO v. Kempthorne:
Petition | DOJ Opposition | Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band Opposition

D.C. Circuit Decision:
MI Gambling Oppo v. Kempthorne, Dirk (April 29, 2008)

http://indianz.com/News/2009/012763.asp


I don't understand half this crap. But can this impact the Cayugas.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/25/09 10:22 PM

I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd.

The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.
Posted by: beeba24

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 05:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd.

The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.



When it's all over the ruling will say the raids were illegal.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: beeba24
When it's all over the ruling will say the raids were illegal.


Where is your proof that they were illegal?
If the raids were illegal the tribes would not have closed the smoksehops.
Failure to pay sales/excise taxes is a FELONY.
Do you know why the tribe closed the bingo hall? ;\)


.
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd.

The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.





Is there any federal trust land in new york at this time?
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd.

The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.







Fate of Gun Lake casino near Wayland may be decided by judge's ruling today
by Julia Bauer | The Grand Rapids Press
Monday January 26, 2009, 4:43 AM

AP File Photo
Round and round it goes, but the fate of a proposed Wayland casino may depend on a court hearing today.GRAND RAPIDS -- Odds are even the Gun Lake casino will be a winning bet today.

This morning, U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon was to hear motions that could once more delay a casino plan, now entering its 10th year of legal maneuvering.

At stake: whether the federal government can turn 147 acres in Wayland Township into tribal land, by placing it in trust.

The U.S. Department of the Interior and the Gun Lake Band of Pottawatomi said last week they would wait until 5 p.m. today before inking the transfer. That is expected to happen if the judge denies motions to delay.

CASINO COMPARISON
Rhode Island

Narragansetts tribe

1978: Tribe buys 1,800 acres and gives the state jurisdiction over tribal land

1983: Government recognizes tribe

1991-1998: Tribe tries to undo state oversight, but fails

1998: Interior Department takes land into trust; state and town officials sue to block a proposed casino and claim tribe was not part of 1934 Indian Reorganization Act.

2003: U.S. District judge rules in tribe's favor and ruling upheld in appeals courts

November 2008: Supreme Court hears case and leans toward state's arguments that only tribes recognized by 1934 are valid. June 2009: Decision expected, likely to support state's case

Michigan

Gun Lake Band

1999: Gun Lake tribe recognized by Bureau of Indian Affairs; proposes Wayland Township casino

2001: Opposition from Grand Rapids business people and MichGO group builds

2005: Interior Department plans to take tribe's land into trust, opening way for a casino; local anti-casino group MichGO sues

2007: Federal judge rules in favor of tribe; grants stay pending appeal

2008: U.S. Appeals Court rules for the tribe; MichGO appeals to Supreme Court

Aug. 1, 2008: Former Wayland Township trustee David Patchak files new suit to stop casino, using the Rhode Island lawsuit as model

Jan. 21, 2009: Supreme Court refuses to hear MichGO appeal; government delays land trust action until 5 p.m. today

Jan. 23: Patchak files emergency stay, seeking five-day stay on land trust should other motions fail

Today: Hearing on Patchak motions.

If the stay is rejected, former Wayland Township trustee David Patchak would lose his bid to derail the casino. And as soon as tonight, the casino could cross its legal finish line.

Or it could be on hold from five days to five months.

Patchak and his attorney, Bruce Courtade, members of the anti-casino group 23 is Enough, sued in August. Their case pins its hopes on a Rhode Island case now before the Supreme Court.

One motion before Judge Leon this morning seeks a delay until the Supreme Court rules on Rhode Island's case, which is expected by June. That state is appealing lower court rulings allowing a Narragansetts tribal casino to proceed.

But the Rhode Island case is a new wrinkle on the tribal landscape. Known as the Carcieri case for the state's governor, it targets wording in the 1934 Indian Reform Act. One issue is the intention of the word "now."

The act defines Indian tribes "now under the jurisdiction of the federal government." The Carcieri appeal, based on that phrase, would disqualify tribes not recognized in 1934.

The Gun Lake Band won recognition by the Bureau of Indian Affairs in 1999; the Narragansetts in 1983.

"The tendency of this court is to apply those statutes kind of rigorously," said Curt Benson, Cooley Law School associate professor in Grand Rapids.

Another expert, Robert Odawi Porter of Syracuse University Law School, said the Rhode Island case's tactic is unprecedented.

"This statute's been on the books for 75 years and no one's ever made this argument before," Porter said.

The law was not focused simply on tribes as of 1934. The act "wasn't a moment in time. It established a process that any Indian tribe could follow."

In today's hearing, Benson said, the casino opposition has a lot more at stake than the tribe does.

If the judge refuses to issue the stay, "it damages their position absolutely," Benson said of Patchak's case. On the other hand, a stay is less drastic for the tribe after so many years of effort.

"Really, all it means is a little more delay for the Gun Lake Band," Benson said. Ultimately, he expects the tribe to win its quest for a casino. He believes it will happen just before Rhode Island wins its Supreme Court case and complicates tribal and states' rights going forward.

Gun Lake tribal spokesman James Nye said the Carcieri case is not similar to his tribe's.

"It involves a differently situated tribe and factual circumstances, and will not control the outcome of the Patchak lawsuit," Nye said.

Late Friday, Courtade filed a second motion seeking a five-day stay if all else fails to slow the tribe's bid.

"We are attempting to prevent the federal government and Gun Lake Band from trying to rush the land into trust if there is a momentary window of opportunity," Courtade said.

The proposed $200 million casino is planned for the former Ampro Industries factory at 129th Avenue, east of U.S. 131.

Once the Interior Department creates the land trust, it is legally "unreviewable," Benson said. So further lawsuits or appeals would be moot.

In a rough economy, public opinion appears to be backing the tribe's casino. In an online poll by The Press last week, 65 percent of those polled said they backed the Wayland casino, while 15 percent opposed it. Twenty percent were neutral.

At the same time, a Battle Creek casino about to open, FireKeepers, was overwhelmed with job seekers when it opened its online application site. On the first day it sought 1,500 employees, 4,500 applications came in. The casino anticipates more than 10,000 applications for jobs paying from $7.40 to $18 an hour in three shifts a day.


Press Photo/Rex Larsen
Bruce Patrick, a Wayland business owner and city councilman, said he is surprised that the fight against the casino continues.Although Patchak is a Wayland area resident, others who would live near the casino are growing weary of the legal wrangling and delays.

Bruce Patrick, 51, rolled his eyes at news of the latest lawsuit.

"It's just getting a little ridiculous. They can't keep doing these frivolous lawsuits forever.

"People need jobs and our economy needs the revenue from this. They are stalling this. They know they can't stop it.

Patrick, a Wayland city councilman, owns the coffee shop Daily Brews in downtown Wayland.

"I'm surprised anybody is still fighting this," he said.

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2009/01/casino_story.html

I posted this because you mentioned the same suit as mentioned in this article.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Censored
Is there any federal trust land in new york at this time?
No.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: beeba24
When it's all over the ruling will say the raids were illegal.


When it's all over the ruling will send the smokeshop owners to jail. ;\)
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 05:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Censored
Is there any federal trust land in new york at this time?
No.


Thank you
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd. The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.





Mr. Talcot did they hand the ruling down this morning as you predicted and if so how did it turn out.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/26/09 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Censored
Mr. Talcot did they hand the ruling down this morning as you predicted and if so how did it turn out.
\:\( No, they passed down six rulings today, but Carcieri wasn't one of them. Maybe next week? It was a guess, but the ruling should come down soon.
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/28/09 07:23 AM

Court blocks tax collection from tribal stores
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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:44 PM EST
By CAROLYN THOMPSON
Associated Press Writer

BUFFALO — New York Indian tribes seeking to preserve their discount smokeshops won a round in court Tuesday when a judge extended an order blocking the state’s efforts to tax cigarette sales to non-Indian customers.

Attorney Margaret Murphy sought the preliminary injunction on behalf of Seneca Indian retailer Scott Maybee and cigarette distributor Day Wholesale in northern New York, arguing the state has not yet established a system to tax non-Indians who buy cigarettes at reservation stores while exempting Indian customers.

State Supreme Court Justice Rose Sconiers agreed to extend a temporary restraining order she imposed Dec. 24.

The hearing was the latest step in a long-running dispute between New York state — which says it has a right to collect tax on sales to non-Indians — and the state’s Indian tribes, who say they are sovereign and exempt from the state’s tax rules.

Seneca President Barry Snyder Sr. praised Tuesday’s state Supreme Court ruling as an endorsement of his nation’s point of view. The western New York tribe, as the biggest seller of discount cigarettes, has been the most vocal in opposition to efforts to tax cigarette sales.

“Judge (Rose) Sconiers’ decisions continue to support our long-held belief in our treaty rights that make the nation immune from state taxes,” Snyder said in a statement.

Assistant Attorney General Darren Longo said the state likely would appeal the preliminary injunction.

“We’ve argued in the past that the (law) does allow for taxation on purchases of cigarettes on reservations by non-registered members of the reservation and that we can’t effect that without having the tax imposed at some level in the chain of custody,” he said. “The judge’s order is effectively going to prevent any action at this point by the state to put the tax in place at any part of the chain of custody.”

Gov. David Paterson signed a law Dec. 15 that would require wholesalers who supply Indian smokeshops to certify that they are in compliance with state tax laws, prompting Seneca leaders to threaten to collect $2-per-vehicle tolls on the New York State Thruway where it runs through the tribe’s Cattaraugus reservation.

Paterson and Snyder have since agreed to meet to talk about the taxation issue. The talks have yet to be scheduled.

http://www.oneidadispatch.com/articles/2009/01/27/news/doc497fdfec66fbb214270670.txt
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/28/09 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Censored

Is there any federal trust land in new york at this time?





http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Censored
... arguing the state has not yet established a system to tax non-Indians who buy cigarettes at reservation stores while exempting Indian customers.


Cayugas do not have a reservation at these 2 smokeshops.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Censored
... prompting Seneca leaders to threaten to collect $2-per-vehicle tolls on the New York State Thruway where it runs through the tribe’s Cattaraugus reservation.


If they collect the "toll" will the tribe then maintain the road?


Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Censored
... prompting Seneca leaders to threaten to collect $2-per-vehicle tolls on the New York State Thruway where it runs through the tribe’s Cattaraugus reservation.


If they collect the "toll" will the tribe then maintain the road?


They certainly will not do that. So then NYS will have to bill them for road maintenance. Oh what a tangled web we weave.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 11:46 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Censored
... arguing the state has not yet established a system to tax non-Indians who buy cigarettes at reservation stores while exempting Indian customers.


Cayugas do not have a reservation at these 2 smokeshops.


How many times do we have to tell people on here that these smokeshops were not on a reservtion before they get it?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 01:26 PM

Originally Posted By: trump


They certainly will not do that.


I bet that they did not think that they would have to maintain the road if they started a toll booth. ;\)
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 06:55 PM

Cayugas seek return of confiscated cigarettesBy: Nate Robson / The Citizen

Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:08 PM EST

The Cayuga Nation filed motions this week seeking the return of all of the cigarettes seized by law enforcement during the Nov. 25 raids on their convenience stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls.
Lee Alcott, an attorney for the nation, said he filed two orders Wednesday to show cause with state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher in order to have the evidence returned to the tribe.

If the cigarettes are not returned before their shelf-life expires, the nation will file a $500,000 lawsuit against the counties to recover the lost value of their merchandise, Alcott said.

"Our position in regards to the cigarettes is that they are perishable merchandise," Alcott said. "In the time since the property has been seized the district attorneys have had ample time to document, photograph and observe the evidence."

The orders will be heard at 10 a.m. in Cayuga County and at 11 a.m. in Seneca County Friday, Feb. 13.

The motions are the newest in a series of legal actions between the nation and the counties after sheriff's deputies seized nearly 3.5 million untaxed cigarettes from the Lake Side Trading stores.

The nation has never denied selling untaxed cigarettes, but has said they cannot be charged for felony tax evasion because the stores are located on reservation lands.

In a decision released on Dec. 9, Fisher said the Cayuga Nation did not have a recognized reservation according to the New York state's tax laws, that the raids were legal and that the district attorneys in both counties could pursue felony tax evasion charges.

The nation has appealed Fisher's decision to the state appellate division where arguments are scheduled to be heard in May.

On Jan 21, the appellate court issued a temporary injunction preventing the district attorneys from continuing their investigations until after a decision is released. That injunction also gave the nation the right to ask Fisher to order the counties to return the evidence.

"The appellate court said we are allowed to ask, so now it is up to Judge Fisher," Alcott said.

In the meantime, Alcott said the nation is examining the option to re-open the stores, which have been closed since Dec. 11.

"They nation wants to make sure they are within their rights to re-open, so they have been examining their legal options," Alcott said. "We expect we should be able to open the stores in the near future."

http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2009/01/29/latest_news/5latestnews.txt
Posted by: SFisWonderful

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 07:02 PM

To bad if your cigs rot expire. You are criminals and it's not about you right now!
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/29/09 09:10 PM

They can save the shelf life and have them returned if they pay the tax. It is the tribe's fault if the shelf life expires.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/30/09 07:40 AM

How long is 2gun and 1/2town shelf life in a jail cell?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/30/09 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
You are criminals and it's not about you right now!



Others individuals operating an illegal operation would have be arrested that day.
Posted by: Censored

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/30/09 11:25 AM

Cayuga Indian Nation reopens stores shuttered after tax raids
by Scott Rapp / The Post-Standard
Friday January 30, 2009, 6:00 AM

Dick Blume / The Post-Standard
The LakeSide Trading store on Route 89 in the town of Seneca Falls is back open selling cigarettes this morning.
Seneca Falls, NY -- The Cayuga Indian Nation was to reopen its two LakeSide Trading gas station/convenience stores this morning, two months after authorities seized all 17,600 cartons of cigarettes in a tax raid.

The stores -- in Union Springs and the town of Seneca Falls -- were to resume selling gasoline, tax-free cigarettes and other merchandise starting at 6 a.m., Daniel French, a Syracuse lawyer representing the nation, said Thursday night. He declined further comment.

The nation temporarily shuttered both businesses immediately after sheriff's deputies in Cayuga and Seneca counties raided the shops and confiscated the cigarettes, computers and business records. The counties conducted the raid because the Cayugas did not pay state excise tax on the cigarettes, which amounted to about $485,000.

On Thursday, the Cayugas disclosed they filed a show-cause order in state Supreme Court this week to regain possession of their cigarettes, computers and business records taken in the Nov. 25 raid.

The motion is to be heard Feb. 13.

If the Cayugas lose in court and can't strike an agreement for the timely return of their cigarettes, the nation will sue both counties for $500,000, or the market value of the perishable smokes, nation lawyer Lee Alcott, of Syracuse, said.

"Do (the counties) want the cigarettes to go stale and lose half a million dollars? That's really up to them," Alcott said.

Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart said he is aware that the seized cigarettes have a limited shelf life, but said prosecutors typically don't return evidence in open criminal cases.

"I know we're willing to listen to any position (the Cayugas) take, but, as of today, we're not willing to consent to anything until we hear further from them," Swinehart said.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann did not return a telephone message in time for this story.

If their request is denied, the Cayugas also asked the court to order the counties to post a $500,000 bond to cover the market value of the cigarettes should they perish, Alcott said.

The Cayugas closed both of their LakeSide Trading gas station/stores immediately after the counties seized their untaxed cigarettes and business records. The counties conducted the raids because the Cayugas did not pay state excise taxes on the cigarettes, which amounted to about $485,000.

The nation's bid to have their cigarettes and business records returned will be heard by state Supreme Court Justice Kenneth Fisher, of Rochester. In December, Fisher ruled that the Cayugas do not have sovereign rights to sell tax-free cigarettes and that the counties could pursue criminal tax-evasion charges against the nation.

Last week, however, a state appellate court granted the nation's request for a preliminary injunction, which temporarily blocks both counties from prosecuting the Cayugas until their appeal of Fisher's ruling is decided. The court also said the nation could apply to get its cigarettes back.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/cayuga_indian_nation_reopens_s.html
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 01/30/09 02:10 PM

reservation?
what reservation?
Taxes are still due NY even if the tribes sells cig on a reservation even though this tribes does not have a reservation. ;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 02/14/09 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Censored
... The counties conducted the raid because the Cayugas did not pay state excise tax on the cigarettes, which amounted to about $485,000.

If the Cayugas lose in court and can't strike an agreement for the timely return of their cigarettes, the nation will sue both counties for $500,000, or the market value of the perishable smokes, nation lawyer Lee Alcott, of Syracuse, said.


Did the tribe pay their overdue taxes yet?


Sworldt did you get your Auburn casino yet?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 02/14/09 09:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Censored
...If their request is denied, the Cayugas also asked the court to order the counties to post a $500,000 bond to cover the market value of the cigarettes should they perish, Alcott said.



Did the tribe post a bond for the millions of unpaid taxes owed the counties/NY state?


.
Posted by: Littleone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 02/27/09 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
There are differences between opinions and lies.

Sworldt Lie: donations to UCE are tax deductable

Sworldt Lie: sales taxes have to be paid on donations

SWorldt Lie: UCE incorporated to dodge taxes

Sworldt Lie: UCE does not remit sales tax on sales

Sworldt Lie: Walmart and Goulds Pumps do not pay full sales tax.

Reply: That concept comes from what the state allows businesses to keep to process the paperwork. Goulds Pumps is a manufacturer. I was not aware they sold retail and selling wholesale does not involve sales taxes.

Sworldt Lie: Nothing is finalized or settled.

Reply: The land claim was finalized and settled in 2005.

Sworldt Lie: The UCE don't want peace they want REVENGE at all cost.

Sworldt Lie: Theres the rub cause it is at a FEDERAL level the tribes are operating. The same as NY State or any other state.

Reply: Sworldt cannot separate the difference between land status and being a ward or the difference between a tribal gang and a state.

Sworldt Lie: You do realize the Cayuga Reservation was never disestablished by congress there for it does still exist.

Reply from the judge: the sales in question did not occur on "a qualified reservation" within the meaning of Tax Law §471-e(1)(a), or "Indian country" within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. §1151(a)

Is that why they closed their bingo hall? Is that why the gas pumps were tested? Is that why the tribe had to comply with all other laws except they refused to pay the sales/excise taxes? Is that why they paid the county fine for selling to minors?

Sworldt Lie: I also see your members are looking to sue the tribes.

Sworldt Lie: The state uses sales tax as a bargaining chip for business's.

Reply: Sworldt does not know the difference between sales tax, excise tax and property tax.

Sworldt Lie: You say all you [UCE] want is to be equal when you exploit tax loop holes yourself.

Sworldt Lie: Do you also realize it has only been withing 60 yrs. or so the tribes had the right to sue the goverment.

Sworldt Lie: Unlike you i don't make money off this.

Sworldt Lie: I also believe EVERYBODY should pay their share.

Sworldt Lie: Do to this issue coming between Dick and his wife he has an axe to grind with the indians.

Sworldt Lie: Dicks biggest problem with me is i have the balls to stand up to the almighty UCE.

Sworldt Lie: No fairy tales here.

Sworldt Lie: BTW Talcot first played the race card.

Reply: All I have ever done is explain the laws, which Sworldt does not like exposed.

Sworldt Lie: The almighty UCE Gets FL1 to censor any adverse opinion of their HATE GROUP. Answer me Moderator or BAND ME.

Reply by FL1 Mod 2: There's a difference between an opinion and racist remarks. There's your answer.. and it's BAN not band, bye.

I guess Sworldt got caught with a race card up his sleeve. All of Sworldt's argument is based merely on subterfuge and obfuscation and is specious. He expressed many times his hatred for the UCE. Sworldt has exposed himself for what he is. I could have corrected his English in almost every post he made, but I chose not to make it personal. We can only hope that he seeks help.



Sworldt Lie: Walmart and Goulds Pumps do not pay full sales tax

Goulds’ tax exemption hearing scheduled


By DAVID L. SHAW/Finger Lakes Times
Friday, February 27, 2009 1:07 PM CST


SENECA FALLS — The Seneca County Industrial Development Agency will conduct a public hearing at 2 p.m. Wednesday on its plan to provide a sales and use tax exemption benefit for ITT Goulds Pumps Inc.

The hearing will be in the Seneca Falls Village Hall, 60 State St.

The IDA Board of Directors voted Feb. 5 to honor the company’s request that the agency acquire title to the building materials, infrastructure service agreements and maintenance contracts, office upgrades, computer software, printers and copiers and other items to be used at the company’s plants at 240 Fall St. and 2881 E. Bayard Street Extension during 2009.

The IDA will then sell the equipment back to Goulds, minus the 8 percent sales tax.

The final resolution to provide the assistance could be on the agenda for the IDA board meeting at noon Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENT



Last year, this arrangement saved ITT Goulds about $438,000 in sales tax payments.

The IDA has been providing the benefit to the company for each of the past six years. It has also provided the benefit to other businesses in the county.

• • •

dshaw@fltimes.com


http://fltimes.com/articles/2009/02/27/news/doc49a813cc6aea0669250796.txt


HHMMM

Is FL1 lieing also Mr. Talcot
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 02/28/09 08:16 AM

The tribes costs the county/NY that same amount EVERY week. And the tribes fail to obey the laws.




Cayugas file intent to sue counties
By Nate Robson / The Citizen

Friday, February 27, 2009 11:51 PM EST

The Cayuga Nation of New York has filed a notice of claim with the state Supreme Court stating that they intend to seek restitution for the untaxed cigarettes that were seized on Nov. 25 from two of the nation's businesses in Cayuga and Seneca counties.
In the claim, Lee Alcott, the nation's attorney, said the raids in Seneca and Cayuga counties harmed the nation-owned Lake Side Trading convenience stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls by causing a loss of profits and by damaging the business' reputation . Alcott also said the nation will not be able to sell the cigarettes if they get them back because they are probably stale.

Alcott had previously said the nation will seek nearly $500,000 in damages that will be divided between the two counties, which are both attempting to file felony tax evasion charges against the tribe for selling untaxed cigarettes to non-Native American Indians.

Clerk of the Legislature Mary Jones said the county has purchased a $300,000 fire and spoilage insurance policy to cover the cigarettes. The policy cost $1,500 and has a $50,000 deductible.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann said filing the notice is the first step toward actually filing a lawsuit against the county.

“They are just trying to waste taxpayer money and judicial resources while not contributing to the tax base,” Budelmann said. “They are rattling their sabers just trying to threaten us by suing us. But they have already sued us six times.”

The claim comes after Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher's Feb. 18 decision, where he ruled that the district attorneys in both counties do not have to return any of the seized evidence to the tribe because it can be used if the case goes to a trial. In that decision. Fisher also ruled that the nation cannot continue to sell untaxed cigarettes to non-Indians.

That decision will be reviewed by the appellate division on March 2.

Currently, an injunction has been placed on both district attorneys, preventing them from filing pending sealed grand jury indictments against the tribe until the state's appellate division has a chance to review the whole case in May to decide whether or not the raids were legal.


Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 02/28/09 10:46 AM

How about we sue them for $10 million for a the BS we've gone thru, including the increased rates on homeowners title insurance for the last 25 years. We've done everything with the courts permission. The indians just do as they please.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 02/28/09 04:35 PM

Since the judge has ruled that the smokes don't have to be returned, how can the idiots expect to win a suit for damages incurred from them not being returned?

Can we sue them for frivolous lawsuit?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/01/09 01:35 AM

The way I understand it, which may not be correct, the counties have / had 21 days to file notice under Rule 12 for sanctions against a frivilous lawsuit.

Rule 11 prescribes sanctions for certain basic misdeeds: (1) the filing of a frivolous suit or document; (2) the filing of a document or lawsuit for an improper purpose; (3) actions that needlessly increase the cost or length of litigation.
The signature of an attorney or party constitutes a certificate by the signer that the signer has read the pleading, motion, or other paper; that to the best of the signer's knowledge, information, and belief formed after reasonable inquiry it is well grounded in fact and is warranted by existing law or a good faith argument for the extension, modification, or reversal of existing law, and that it is not interposed for any improper purpose, such as to harass or to cause unnecessary delay or needless increase in the cost of litigation... If a pleading, motion, or other paper is signed in violation of this rule, the court, upon motion or upon its own initiative, shall impose upon the person who signed it, a represented party, or both, an appropriate sanction, which may include an order to pay the other party or parties the amount of the reasonable expenses incurred because of the filing of the pleading, motion, or other paper, including a reasonable attorney's fee (emphasis added).
Sanctions may apply against an attorney, the client, or both.

The Sue tribe might as well have sued the judge for making the ruling or sued Congress and the state legislatures for passing the laws.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/01/09 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
How about we sue them for $10 million for a the BS we've gone thru


Does the tribe not owe over $100 million in cig/gas taxes from 2 illegal smokeshops for the past few years?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/01/09 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
reservation?
what reservation?
Taxes are still due NY even if the tribes sells cig on a reservation even though this tribes does not have a reservation. ;\)




Censored - did you find the answers yet?


.
Posted by: Littleone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/01/09 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Censored
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd. The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.





Mr. Talcot did they hand the ruling down this morning as you predicted and if so how did it turn out.


After reading these forums i couldn't help but notice predictions that haven't come true.
Posted by: Littleone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/01/09 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
reservation?
what reservation?
Taxes are still due NY even if the tribes sells cig on a reservation even though this tribes does not have a reservation. ;\)




Censored - did you find the answers yet?


.


I tried to PM censored. Did they get banned?

You did mention they where sworldt.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/01/09 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Littleone
Originally Posted By: Censored
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.

Mr. Talcot did they hand the ruling down this morning as you predicted and if so how did it turn out.

After reading these forums i couldn't help but notice predictions that haven't come true.
Golly Gee Littleone alias Censored alias Sworldt

Which prediction did not come true?

Carcieri was ruled on Feb. 24

The U.S. Supreme Court decided Tuesday that tribes recognized after 1934 cannot have land taken into trust for them by the Department of the Interior
http://www.freep.com/article/20090225/NEWS06/90225060

CERA was the only one that submitted the Collier memos, as referred to through the ruling.
February 25, 2009

Ruling could stymie Michigan tribe's casino plans
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WAYLAND TOWNSHIP - Opponents of an American Indian casino planned for Allegan County are reviewing their legal options after a U.S. Supreme Court decision limiting the federal government's authority to take tribal land into trust.

The U.S. Department of the Interior placed 137 acres into trust for the Gun Lake Band of Pottawatomi Indians on Jan. 30. The tribe plans to build a $200 million-casino complex about 20 miles south of Grand Rapids.

The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the federal government must have recognized tribes by 1934 to take their lands into trust. The Gun Lake Band was recognized in 1998.

23 Is Enough spokesman Rusty Merchant told the Grand Rapids Press that he wonders whether the ruling could lead to a trust reversal.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/02/09 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Littleone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
reservation?
what reservation?
Taxes are still due NY even if the tribes sells cig on a reservation even though this tribes does not have a reservation. ;\)




Censored - did you find the answers yet?


.


I tried to PM censored. Did they get banned?

You did mention they where sworldt.


Littleone = Sworldt. ;\)
Posted by: Littleone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/02/09 12:23 PM

R.T. Now you accuse me of being sworldt. Are you paranoid. You also accused rigatoni of being sworldt. What is your problem.

Whenever someone asks you something you don't like you accuse them of being sworldt. If you remember correctly you know my real name as i screwed up on my display name when i first stated to post. You and i posted to one another.

R.T. get a grip.
Posted by: Littleone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/02/09 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Censored
Mr. Talcot did they hand the ruling down this morning as you predicted and if so how did it turn out.
\:\( No, they passed down six rulings today, but Carcieri wasn't one of them. Maybe next week? It was a guess, but the ruling should come down soon.



Enough said
Posted by: Littleone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/02/09 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I wouldn't be too concerned about MichGo. Their lawsuit challenge was direct rather than procedural. There is another lawsuit that challenges procedure dealing with the same tribe.

I predict that SCOTUS will pass down a ruling tomorrow at 10 AM on Carcieri v. Kempthorne (07-526). Oral arguments were heard November 3 rd.
The case files are on the NARF website http://www.narf.org/sct/caseindexes/current/carcieri.html

I think the deciding factor favoring the whole case will be due to CERA's amicus brief at http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/merits/cerf_et_al.pdf

This also explains why the tribes in NY will not be allowed trust lands. The Carcieri ruling will also settle the MichGo situation without having to deal with it.





Your original post.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/02/09 07:58 PM

Ah yes. I predicted that the U.S. Supreme Court would rule on Carcieri Feb. 26. They didn't issue a ruling until the next week. There is no way anyone can know when SCOTUS is going to do something. Considering they had between November 3rd and June and announcements come once a week, I'd say it was a very good guess.

But you are correct, my timing prediction was wrong.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/03/09 03:21 PM

Paterson Heading to Buffalo Area
by Yevette Collins
Published Mar 03, 2009

Governor David Paterson visits Niagara Falls Wednesday, for another Town Hall-style meeting.

Tuesday morning he called into Buffalo radio station WBEN. Paterson fielded questions about everything from the state's fiscal crisis to the tax issue involving the Cayuga and Seneca Indian Nations' cigarette sales.

"This has been a problem for 30-years and what we think we're going to do is look at our department of taxation in terms of creating a way in which those who do business with those entities will not get, in other words, cooperation from New York state. Because it's killing our small businesses," the Governor said.



Paterson plans to hold a Town Hall meeting in Rochester, March 11, at the Riverside Convention Center. Doors open at 4:30 p.m. and the event begins at 5:30 p.m..

On March 12, he holds the second student Town Hall meeting at SUNY Geneseo's Wadsworth Auditorium. Doors open at 10 a.m. and that event begins at 11 a.m.




Posted by: Ranger

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/03/09 04:58 PM

Still nothing from our Governor to make the Indians do what every other business in NY has to do, pay taxes. It makes no sense to go after the ones "that do business with them". Do the right thing and make the Indians comply if they want to do business in NYS, or shut them down. Just as they would to any other business that fails to pay their taxes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/04/09 06:58 AM

Wonder if he is waiting for the ruling on the Cayuga smokeshops?
Posted by: pixie

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/04/09 07:07 AM

The problem is over the years the indians and their land claims have become politicaly untouchable , its a sensitive issue and many do not want to open the can of worms. However when the tribes go to far over the line with tax's and as the economy drops, the 1 billion they with hold from the Tax coffers looks to good . The want for the money will become larger then the sensitivity issue and the goverments will find ways around the tribes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/04/09 07:09 AM

The tribe is the one breaking the treaties by purchasing land and interfering with the local residents/government.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/04/09 10:26 PM

The Tribune: Tacoma, WA

Smokeshop operators ordered to pay $9.2 million
Rob Carson March 3rd, 2009

Two prominent members of the South Sound Indian community have been ordered to pay $9.2 million in restitution for selling more than $20 million worth of contraband cigarettes over a six-year period, costing the state millions in tax revenue.

Henry and Allison Gottfriedson, operators of Frank's Landing Indian Discount Tobacco near the mouth of the Nisqually River, were sentenced Monday in U.S. District Court to five years of probation and 240 hours of community service.

The also were ordered to pay restitution to the state.

The Gottfriedsons pleaded guilty to the federal charges last August, bargaining with prosecutors to avoid possible prison time. The sentence, handed down by U.S. District Judge Benjamin H. Settle, coincided with plea bargain terms.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/04/09 10:31 PM

http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2009/03/04/latest_news/6latestnews.txt

Cayuga Nation's appeal on cigarette sales denied
By: The Citizen staff report

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:37 PM EST

The state's Appellate Division on Wednesday ruled that the Cayuga Nation cannot sell untaxed cigarettes until after the court handles a pending felony tax evasion appeal. The court also rejected a separate motion from the Seneca and Cayuga County district attorneys' office to dismiss that appeal.
The decision upholds state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher's Feb. 18 decision, which barred the Cayugas from selling cigarettes until after the appellate court examines his Dec. 9 ruling.

In that ruling, Fisher said the district attorneys in Cayuga and Seneca counties could file felony tax evasion charges against the nation for selling untaxed cigarettes from their Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls to non-tribe members.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann said the ruling confirms that the appellate court's Jan. 21 temporary injunction, which prevents him from pursuing a criminal case against the tribe until after the appeal, was only meant to maintain the status quo.

"Whatever talk (the nation) had into past appellate court decisions indicating which way the court was leaning have been blown away," Budelmann said. "Our reading into this decision is that the court wants to maintain the status quo."

Lee Alcott, an attorney for the Cayugas, said the tribe will comply with the decision.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/05/09 06:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Lee Alcott, an attorney for the Cayugas, said the tribe will comply with the decision.



Will the county go after the illegal money paid to Alcott?
Will Alcott also face felony charges?
Should the tribe not have to post bonds for those facing felony charges? (flight risk)
Will the county confiscate the assests/land when the tribe fails to pay the county/state the 100+ million of unpaid taxes?



.
Posted by: Driver8

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/06/09 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

Will the county go after the illegal money paid to Alcott?
Will Alcott also face felony charges?


Wow. I hope you never need a lawyer. When did being the lawyer for a crook automatically make him a crook too?
Posted by: Ovidian

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/06/09 04:05 PM

Money earned in a clients defense is earned justly no matter how wrong the defendant. Thats's a given. Without that we'd be snake free for lack of counsel.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/06/09 04:44 PM

"When did being the lawyer for a crook automatically make him a crook too?"

It's not automatic, it's a given!! What do you call a lawyer... Ah never mind.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/07/09 01:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Driver8
[quote=bluezone]

Wow. I hope you never need a lawyer. When did being the lawyer for a crook automatically make him a crook too?



Did Alcott know that the tribe was running an illegal business for many years?
Did Alcott get paid from the illegal profits from the illegal business operations?


.
Posted by: Ranger

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/08/09 04:38 AM

It still wouldn't matter BZ, that's what defense lawyers do. I'm sure many of them know the people they are representing are guilty. They still get representation. And the attornies that represent them aren't crooks. I say that tounge in cheek.
Posted by: pixie

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/08/09 07:25 AM

yes but tax evasion is a bit diffrent , if a lawyer or accountiant assists or advises a client on how to break the law through tax evasion thay can be charged. no diffrent then if a lawyer assisted a client in planing a bank robbery.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/08/09 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: pixie
yes but tax evasion is a bit diffrent , if a lawyer or accountiant assists or advises a client on how to break the law through tax evasion thay can be charged. no diffrent then if a lawyer assisted a client in planing a bank robbery.


Sounds good to me. Can't imagine any self respecting lawyer would believe they are selling cigs on a reservation AND that the law states anything else but ONLY cigarette sales to other indians is legal. I would think the NYS Bar Assoc should do something.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/08/09 09:35 AM

Originally Posted By: pixie
yes but tax evasion is a bit diffrent , if a lawyer or accountiant assists or advises a client on how to break the law through tax evasion thay can be charged. no diffrent then if a lawyer assisted a client in planing a bank robbery.


And then the lawyer knowingly getting "paid" from the stolen money from the bank robbery.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/08/09 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
Sounds good to me. Can't imagine any self respecting lawyer would believe they are selling cigs on a reservation

The Supreme Court ruled that it is not indian land and the tribes lawyer knew of this ruling.

Originally Posted By: justaxme

AND that the law states anything else but ONLY cigarette sales to other indians is legal.

Sales to other indians from these two illegal smokeshops are also taxable. The tribe must obey all laws and pay all taxes at these two smokeshops.


.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/08/09 10:36 AM

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/600776.html
Updated: 03/08/09 08:47 AM
FOCUS: INDIAN CIGARETTES
Indian-made cigarettes seen as cheap, toxic and tax-free
The trouble withIndian cigarettes

By Tom Precious
NEWS ALBANY BUREAU

ALBANY - In Iroquois history, Seneca is a name of great pride, the Keepers of the Western Door.

But to thousands of smokers, from California to Florida and from the Caribbean to Mexico and especially in upstate New York, Seneca is something entirely different: a cheap cigarette that has prompted grave health concerns and dozens of lawsuits.

Billions of these Seneca brand cigarettes are made and trafficked within an hour’s drive of Buffalo and sold each year in a sophisticated distribution network. The Seneca brand is just one of a growing number of Indian-made cigarettes flooding the marketplace that has:

* Made health advocates worry that the cheap cigarettes are causing more people-especially teenagers-to get hooked on smoking.

* Failed to meet fire-safety standards and that may contain dangerous metallic elements.

* Prompted 30 states to sue, claiming the cigarettes are being sold illegally.

* Led the federal government, in January, to file a $21 million judgment against the owner of the Seneca brand for failure to pay a federal manufacturers' fee - and led to a bitter legal challenge over whether sales comply with the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Arthur Montour Jr., the Seneca entrepreneur who is behind the Seneca brand, did not return calls seeking comment.

But smoking opponents and government lawyers across the country were more than willing to discuss a booming business that they see as a health hazard as well as a legal travesty.

"The prospect of an Indian cigarette industry, unregulated by the state or even federal governments, is a public health time bomb," said Russell Sciandra, director of the Center for a Tobacco Free New York.

That's partly because the cheap Indian cigarettes provide smokers - including teenagers who buy over the Internet - an alternative at a time when states and now the U. S. government are boosting cigarette taxes.

"The real issue is price," said Gregory Connolly, a public health professor at Harvard University. With the explosion of cheaper Native American cigarettes, he said, "there will be far fewer quitters and increased consumption."

But there are other issues that could be of concern to smokers themselves.

Several of the Native American produced tobacco products do not meet New York’s fire-safe cigarette standards, a 2004 mandate that requires all cigarettes to be self-extinguishing, as a way to reduce smoking related fires. Several Indian brands purchased by The Buffalo News do not appear to contain special bands on the cigarette paper that serve as fire stoppers if smokers fall asleep with cigarettes in their hands.

And at least nine Indian brands, including Seneca - the king of Native American sales are not on the state's fire-safety approved list. The state, though, has done nothing to try to stop those sales.

Metallic elements: Researchers at Roswell Park Cancer Institute want to know, in part, because higher-than-normal levels of two metallic elements - strontium and barium - have been found in some of the brands. Both of those metallic elements can be radioactive.

Scientists believe the metallic elements, sometimes contained in contaminated soil, are absorbed by tobacco plants. Roswell Park scientists, in tests the past year using a lab in Scotland, have found Seneca Light cigarettes with strontium levels twice that of a leading non-Indian brand.

Roswell Park researchers don't know yet if the higher metallic element concentrations pose an added risk beyond the existing toxicity in cigarettes. The higher concentrations of the elements found in some Indian brands "is not something you want to find when lighting up," said Michael Cummings, a longtime tobacco researcher at Roswell Park.

And for states that want to regulate and tax cigarettes, the Indian brands themselves are something they wish they hadn't found pouring into their states.

The cigarettes are made at Grand River Enterprises, a plant on the Six Nations of the Grand River Indian reservation in Ohsweken, Ont., near Hamilton.

These Indian cigarettes are sold cheaply - sometimes a third the price of well-known brands - under names such as Buffalo Deluxe, Heron, Opal and Sky Dancer. And they are sold tax-free, both on the Internet and at Indian reservations across the country. As a result, 30 states have legal actions against those involved with the Seneca brand. Montour, through his firm, Native Wholesale Supply, in Perrysburg, owns the brand.

States claim the cigarettes are sold illegally and without some of the marketing and distribution protections required of other cigarettes.

As just one example, since 2004, at least 300 million Seneca cigarettes have gone through a Las Vegas holding facility at the Big Sandy Rancheria tribe in California, one of the states in court over the Seneca brand sales. That doesn’t include Internet sales, said Dennis Eckhart, head of the California attorney general's tobacco litigation and enforcement section.

The Seneca brand cigarettes violate California's fire-safety standards and are being illegally sold tax-free, Eckhart said.
"Those sales are taxable and fully covered by the laws of the state. They are not exempt," he said.

But Montour, in court filings, says third-party companies, not his, are responsible for any shipments to California.
In Idaho, which is also fighting the Indian cigarette flow in court, 90 million cigarettes have been shipped from Grand River's cigarette plant the past four years to a smoke shop on the Coeur d'Alene Indian Reservation.

"We're a very small state. That gives you an idea of the size of the operation," said Brett DeLange, chief of the consumer protection division in the Idaho attorney general’s office.

Montour and his business partners, in turn, have sued states, saying states are illegally trying to block commerce. Montour also claims that the Seneca brand's sales take place on legal, on-reservation markets.

The United States government, meanwhile, has not only slapped Montour's company for dodging required fees, but it is also in a legal battle over possible violations of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

"Clearly," the largest share of the market for the Indian cigarettes "exists, in reality, off reservation," according to a December filing by the U. S. Justice Department.

And much of the market exists in cyberspace. On one Web site - one of hundreds selling the brand around the country-a carton of 200 Seneca cigarettes was priced at $13, compared with $37 to $50 for well-known cigarettes. Not surprisingly, the cheap cigarettes are selling well, especially in Western New York.

Roswell Park found that in just two years, three Indian brands-Niagara, Seneca and Smokin’ Joes saw their market share in Western New York increase from seventh-tenths of one percent to nearly 21 percent. A person answering the phone at the makers of Niagara said the company is not Indian owned, although Indian online shops call Niagara an Indian brand and its address is listed on cigarette packs as Seneca Nation Territories in Irving.

Sales of Seneca cigarettes by Indian retailers have grown more than 200 percent from 2007 to 2008 in upstate New York, according to a confidential industry sales document. In all, Native American retailers sold 323,000 cartons - nearly 6.5 million cigarettes — of Seneca cigarettes last year, and that does not include the booming online trade. As an indicator of its popularity, Seneca sales far out-paced the 263,000 cartons of Marlboro cigarettes sold in the same region.

"They are huge and getting bigger and bigger," Frank Attea, a major Buffalo tobacco wholesaler to the Indians, said of the Indian-made cigarettes.

Just how big is unknown, though states have been trying to get those answers. They do know that Grand River, which produces Seneca and Opal cigarettes in a deal with Montour, saw cigarette sales go from 78 million in 1999 to 2.2 billion just five years later.

Grand River's principals - Jerry Montour, a member of the Wahta Mohawk tribe, and no relation to Arthur Montour, and Kenneth Hill, a member of the Lower Mohawk tribe - did not return phone calls. Nor did a South Carolina firm, Tobaccoville USA, also involved in the business.

Some industry executives believe the Seneca brand alone could push 10 billion cigarettes a year in volume.

Given its explosive growth and aggressive marketing, much of the focus around the country has been on the Seneca brand.
Montour, a former Seneca Tribal Council member, owns the Seneca trademark through his company, which was incorporated in 2001 with the Sac and Fox Nation in Oklahoma.

Seneca Nation President Barry E. Snyder Sr. said the Seneca Nation has no connection to the Seneca brand cigarettes.
"These cigarettes are manufactured in Ontario, not on our territories. The Nation is in no way responsible for them or their contents," he said in a statement.

After the cigarettes are made at that plant in Ontario, they are shipped to three sites: foreign trade zones in Lackawanna and Las Vegas, and a warehouse on the Cattaraugus reservation, court papers show.

From there, they go to any number of outlets on Indian reservations around the nation, where they are sold at casinos and smoke shops and online. In 2007, the Las Vegas facility handled 700 million cigarettes from the Grand River and Montour operation, one state investigator said.

The Seneca brand is licensed in both Canada and the United States, and cigarettes enter the country legally, having paid federal taxes, said Jeffrey Cohen, associate chief counsel at the Northeast office of the U. S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. After that, however, when distributors down the line begin selling them tax-free around the country and on the Interet, things change.

"At that point it becomes diverted to potentially illegal channels," Cohen said.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/08/09 07:30 PM

They forget to mention that cigarettes make you stink and look 20 years older than you are. Disgusting habit. I know, I did it. So glad I quit (12 years ago). So can we sue the indians like we did the other tobacco companies?
Posted by: pixie

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/09/09 07:03 AM

I talked to a guy who worked at the canadian smokes plant for senica and he said there are very few employees, the bails come in and the plant automaticaly makes and packs the smokes in box's no people, only to fix the machines and load the trucks. And yes you can sue them. The whole world would be better off with out the cancer sticks.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/09/09 08:22 PM

Was there another court appearance today ?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/10/09 01:11 PM

Originally Posted By: pixie
I talked to a guy who worked at the canadian smokes plant for senica and he said there are very few employees, the bails come in and the plant automaticaly makes and packs the smokes in box's no people, only to fix the machines and load the trucks. And yes you can sue them. The whole world would be better off with out the cancer sticks.



But the tribes claim people will be out of work if they cannot sell their illegal cigarettes?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/10/09 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
* Prompted 30 states to sue, claiming the cigarettes are being sold illegally.

* Led the federal government, in January, to file a $21 million judgment against the owner of the Seneca brand for failure to pay a federal manufacturers' fee - and led to a bitter legal challenge over whether sales comply with the North American Free Trade Agreement.



Will the Federal government take further steps?


.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/10/09 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
Was there another court appearance today ?
I think the next appearance in the Cayuga case is April 3rd.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/10/09 11:06 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
* Prompted 30 states to sue, claiming the cigarettes are being sold illegally.

* Led the federal government, in January, to file a $21 million judgment against the owner of the Seneca brand for failure to pay a federal manufacturers' fee - and led to a bitter legal challenge over whether sales comply with the North American Free Trade Agreement.


Will the Federal government take further steps?
.
The lawsuit was filed two months ago, so I'm sure they are taking further steps.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 03/12/09 03:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Was there another court appearance today ?
I think the next appearance in the Cayuga case is April 3rd.


The tribe could not wait another month.
The tribe sure enjoyed violating the laws for many years.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/30/09 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.



is that why the Supreme Court ruled AGAINST the tribes?

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case - 03/30/09 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
Was there another court appearance today ?


When is a tribe not in court?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/07/09 08:54 AM

The Cayuga tribe fails to pay "collect and remit" the sales taxes on cigs and gas do they also refuse to pay their income taxes from their businesses to NY state?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/07/09 09:05 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
The Cayuga tribe fails to pay "collect and remit" the sales taxes on cigs and gas do they also refuse to pay their income taxes from their businesses to NY state?


Very good question.
Posted by: BJ Radford

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/08/09 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: bluezone
The Cayuga tribe fails to pay "collect and remit" the sales taxes on cigs and gas do they also refuse to pay their income taxes from their businesses to NY state?


Very good question.


It's only a good question if you don't already know the answer, which I suspect blue zone does. But.....I'll answer anyway. Indian Nations are exempt from income tax.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/08/09 06:13 AM

Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Indian Nations are exempt from income tax.


Does that also apply to Pullens?
Do the Cayuga's also refuse to pay Federal income taxes?
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/08/09 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: bluezone
The Cayuga tribe fails to pay "collect and remit" the sales taxes on cigs and gas do they also refuse to pay their income taxes from their businesses to NY state?


Very good question.


It's only a good question if you don't already know the answer, which I suspect blue zone does. But.....I'll answer anyway. Indian Nations are exempt from income tax.

I did not know the answer. I have not discussed it with bluezone. I don't know him at all. I have no idea who he/she is. We have only exchanged a small number of PM's on here. Are all individual Indians exempt from personal income taxes as well as Indian owned businesses? Does this apply to federal income tax as well as state? So Pullens doesn't pay income tax either? who decided this? since you are not an Indian, I assume you pay income tax?

How many members are there in the NY Cayuga Nation? Do they all live in upstate NY? Do any of them live in what could be considered substandard housing?
Posted by: BJ Radford

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/08/09 07:38 AM

Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: bluezone
The Cayuga tribe fails to pay "collect and remit" the sales taxes on cigs and gas do they also refuse to pay their income taxes from their businesses to NY state?


Very good question.


It's only a good question if you don't already know the answer, which I suspect blue zone does. But.....I'll answer anyway. Indian Nations are exempt from income tax.

I did not know the answer. I have not discussed it with bluezone. I don't know him at all. I have no idea who he/she is. We have only exchanged a small number of PM's on here. Are all individual Indians exempt from personal income taxes as well as Indian owned businesses? Does this apply to federal income tax as well as state? So Pullens doesn't pay income tax either? who decided this? since you are not an Indian, I assume you pay income tax?

How many members are there in the NY Cayuga Nation? Do they all live in upstate NY? Do any of them live in what could be considered substandard housing?


I only said I thought blue zone knew the answer....

Lot's of legit questions here, whew! I'll try and answer those that I can-

Individual indians are not exempt from income tax - ony indian nations. I believe there is some provision for individuals who work and live on the reservation being exempt from state income tax, but I do not know of anyone personally that uses this provision.

Income tax exemption for Indian Nations applies to state and federal income tax.

The Nation's non-reservation located businesses are LLC's of which the Nation is the sole member - making them exempt from income tax. Any business 100% owned by an Indian Nation is exempt from income tax, regardless of it's location. There is a special section on the IRS website dedicated to Indian tax provisions. Check there for more details.

I pay income tax (seems like lots of it!).

Membership information is privileged. Sorry. Can't answer those.

I would guess, and that's what it is - a guess - just like in any culture, some members live better than others, some in nice house, some in not so nice houses.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/08/09 10:25 AM

Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Indian Nations are exempt from income tax.


Indian run businesses must find it very difficult to survive when one does not have to pay their share of the taxes whether it be property, sales, excise, income...

Posted by: SilverFox

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/08/09 05:25 PM

According to the chart on wikipedia there are 448 members of the Cayuga in NYS.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayuga_nation
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/09/09 06:09 AM

Tobacco profits to go up in smoke?
Updated: 04/09/2009 05:53 AM
By: Britt Godshalk

ALBANY, N.Y. -- "It is just ludicrous," said Jim Calvin, the president of the New York Association of Convenient Stores. "How can the state justify increasing a fee on any small business by 900 percent or 4,900 percent?"

The folks at NYACS have smoke coming out of their ears. The cost to sell cigarettes in New York just went from $100 annually per store, to $1000, $2,500, even $5,000, depending on the store's gross sales of all products.

"Many of them are going to make the calculation that it's not worth it," said Calvin. “And actually the goal of this higher fee."

In a statement, the state Department of Budget said, "This public health initiative will help decrease the availability of tobacco products, which cost the lives of thousands of New Yorkers each year. Additionally, it will provide critical resources to fund health care programs."

Tobacco profits to go up in smoke?
A measure passed in this year's state budget has sparked a hot debate, this time over an increase to the state's fee on cigarette and tobacco retailers. Our Britt Godshalk takes a look.

"To say that if our stores have to stop selling tobacco, there won't be any more tobacco and people won't have access to it, no, that's baloney. They are just going to go to these unregulated outlets that are beyond the reach of New York State Regulation and Taxation," said Calvin.

"Whether it's a guy on the street in NYC, or the Internet, Native Americans, even Vermont," said Christian King, who owns a chain of convenience stores in the Albany area. "We're pushing people towards these alternative sources."

"Those customers who stop coming through the door, not only are they not buying tobacco products any longer, but they aren't buying other products either, a soda, a coffee, a newspaper," said Calvin.

NYACS says many customers who come in to buy cigarettes pick up a lottery ticket on the way out as well, but if they don't come in to buy cigarettes, they won't buy lottery tickets either. The lottery provides dollars for the state education budget, dollars that NYACS says will now go up in smoke.

"Even as little of a one percent drop in lottery sales would translate to a loss of more revenue than this license fee increase would generate," said Calvin. "So the state has done its homework on how this is going to impact the budget as a whole."

The fees will come due in September.

----------------------


Copyright ©2008 TWEAN News Channel of Syracuse, LLC, d/b/a News 10 Now.
All Rights Reserved.



Paterson are you for REAL?
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 09:48 AM

Gov Patsy wants to end tax dispute?

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/G...eQ.cspx?rss=102

"the governor said he is requesting private meetings with the Indian nations....." Gov Patsy

So he can screw us over like they (3 men in a room) do with their private meetings on the state budget!!! Great! I say three men, but I apologize to all real men who I have insulted by comparing them to Gov Patsy, Silver and the other guy.
Posted by: trump

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 09:51 AM

Maybe there is hope?

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/G...eQ.cspx?rss=102

Visiting Canandaigua Thursday, the governor said he is requesting private meetings with the Indian nations, but for the first time, he indicated he's prepared to play hardball, if necessary.
Posted by: justaxme

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 10:41 AM

He wants a closed door private meeting so he can beg for money as he sells us all down the river. He doesn't have the balls to do anything in public. He's screwing us over every which way in private budget meetings. Why not screw over in private with the indians. He looks ridiculous in public.
Posted by: SilverFox

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 12:46 PM

To me the only negotiation should be obey the laws, pay all taxes or all services to your businesses will be cut off - Period. There can not be any justice with two sets of laws. One set for the Cayugas and one set for the rest of us. I am tired of seeing two counties torn apart financially and emotionally for the sole benefit of 400-500 people wanting special priviledges for something their ancestors did over 200 years ago. Their ancestors sold the land to NYS no matter how they spin their version of history. That was 200 years ago - get over it.

Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: SilverFox
According to the chart on wikipedia there are 448 members of the Cayuga in NYS.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayuga_nation

Silver: Wikipedia is posted by anyone that wishes to submit. The data presented is obviously skewed and presents one side. As to the 448 members, they may well be associated with the New York tribe. However, in court Clint Halftown testified that about 150 members lived in NYS and they claimed about 400 total throughout the country. More "members" joined when they had a casino deal pending.
Posted by: Driver8

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By: justaxme
He wants a closed door private meeting so he can beg for money as he sells us all down the river. He doesn't have the balls to do anything in public. He's screwing us over every which way in private budget meetings. Why not screw over in private with the indians. He looks ridiculous in public.


Paterson's a buffoon. He should resign immediately.
Posted by: SilverFox

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 02:24 PM

Thanks for the clarification. That just makes me all the angrier. Two counties torn apart for 150 people? That is just plain beyond ridiculous!

Of course, if they get what they want the others will come. There is no doubt in my mind about that. If they all come and abide by the same laws as everyone else in the county they would be welcome and that would be nice.

They could contribute to our area as a tourist attraction by setting up an educational center with an Indian Museum. Perhaps a small village showing their heritage, customs and how their ancestors lived. We could all get along but only under one set of laws.
Posted by: SilverFox

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 02:25 PM

If Paterson sells us out to the Indians behind closed doors hopefully there will be legal action taken to impeach him.
Posted by: Driver8

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 02:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SilverFox
If Paterson sells us out to the Indians behind closed doors hopefully there will be legal action taken to impeach him.


Keep dreaming. Neither Pataki nor Spitzer faced impeachment for trying to cut a deal.
Posted by: SilverFox

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/11/09 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Driver8
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
If Paterson sells us out to the Indians behind closed doors hopefully there will be legal action taken to impeach him.


Keep dreaming. Neither Pataki nor Spitzer faced impeachment for trying to cut a deal.


Well, I have a dollar, so I am entitled to a dream. ;\) \:D
Posted by: Ranger

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/12/09 05:36 AM

you have a dollar right now, but after all the fees and new taxes, you won't have it for long, thanks to some of those backroom deals
Posted by: SilverFox

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/12/09 12:24 PM

It's mine and I am going to hide it where they can't find it. \:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* - 04/20/09 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: SilverFox



The sign states the land was SOLD.
No reservation in NY but look in Canada. ;\)