401 k versus state pension plan

Posted by: Fart in the Wind

401 k versus state pension plan - 05/21/12 08:13 PM

Colorado went from defined benefit pension plans to 401 k s about nine years ago. Here is an article from 2 days ago.

Longtime State Pension Chief Resigns, Calls 401(k) Experiment a 'Failure'

http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/longtime-state-pension-chief-resigns.html

quotes -
Public pensions are not the story. The real story is that Americans in general are unprepared for retirement. They typically have no resources to support them if they should become unable to work, let alone sustain them in retirement. The 401(k) experiment is a failure. The social service cost implication of this situation is not being acknowledged and will become a huge burden in the future.

Predicting that handing over pension funds to Wall Street turned out to be a failure is about as hard as predicting Christmas will be on Dec 25.

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?
Posted by: Jseemore

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/21/12 08:47 PM

Being unprepared IS the problem.

Why should this be a "social burden"?

What ever happened to personal responsibility?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/21/12 09:31 PM

Government requires 401(k) plans to be invested in the stock market. That's about as safe as a 2 year old with a loaded gun. You save all your life to have it destroyed in a stock market crash. Then what do you do? Food stamps and welfare. Pensions are safer and cost less in the long run.
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Government requires 401(k) plans to be invested in the stock market.



Really? You can't invest your 401K in bonds, mutual funds, gold, silver, or money market accounts? When did that change?
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 07:27 AM

Twocats is a teacher and has her pension and medical paid for by the taxpayers and has no concept of finances in the real world.
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:36 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Twocats is a teacher and has her pension and medical paid for by the taxpayers and has no concept of finances in the real world.


Do you have any issue with Congress and their salary ($174,000/year), benefits that include better medical coverage than any of us will ever have, and retirement, all fully paid for by taxpayers and at a much higher level than for teachers? Or do you believe Congress deserves it because they benefit society more than teachers?

Keep in mind that Congress gets the package after only 5 years of service. Basically, a single term is about enough to receive better benefits than most working Americans will hope to ever get.
Posted by: Jseemore

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:50 AM

Do you always rely on emails for facts?

http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/s...get-full-pensi/

http://www.aarp.org/work/employee-benefi...ally_get.1.html
Posted by: Jseemore

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: twocats
Government requires 401(k) plans to be invested in the stock market.



Really? You can't invest your 401K in bonds, mutual funds, gold, silver, or money market accounts? When did that change?


\:\)
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Jseemore
Do you always rely on emails for facts?

http://www.aarp.org/work/employee-benefi...ally_get.1.html

Ha, you're funny. I actually don't use email. Nothing but spam anyway. I used the US Senate Website itself for my facts.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Jseemore
Do you always rely on emails for facts?

http://www.aarp.org/work/employee-benefi...ally_get.1.html


Facts from AARP are just like chain e-mails. AARP should be taxed just like another for profit company.
Posted by: Jseemore

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 09:00 AM

http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/s...get-full-pensi/
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 09:05 AM

Post your PolitiFacts and AARP websites all you want and call those facts but I got my information directly from the US Senate website, where it states Congress gets pension benefits after 5 years of service. Considering a Senator serves a 6-year term, that means they get pension benefits after only serving 1 term.
Posted by: Jseemore

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 09:17 AM

Originally Posted By: MeRightYouWrong
Post your PolitiFacts and AARP websites all you want and call those facts but I got my information directly from the US Senate website, where it states Congress gets pension benefits after 5 years of service. Considering a Senator serves a 6-year term, that means they get pension benefits after only serving 1 term.




I posted them because they break down the facts derived from the Senate website. Misleading to not include the required time served, percentages, age to collect as well as the contributions.
Posted by: Hard Corps

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 10:33 AM

The pension fund is in the condition it's in because funds have been stolen by politicians to offset their large spending on their pet projects.

The politicians give their cronies waivers so their cronies can keep earning a pension and still hold high paying state jobs.
Posted by: Greymane

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Twocats is a teacher and has her pension and medical paid for by the taxpayers and has no concept of finances in the real world.



Exactly. Talk about lack of personal responsibility.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


show us the numbers

what is the earliest age that tier 1-5 retire at?
what is percentage they contribute per year out of their salary?
how many years do they have to contribute?
do they receive 60% of their final salary for their pension?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: twocats
Government requires 401(k) plans to be invested in the stock market.



Really? You can't invest your 401K in bonds, mutual funds, gold, silver, or money market accounts? When did that change?

A good investment plan is diversified. Aren't gold, silver, bonds and mutual funds traded at the stock exchange? I did not know I could put my 403(b) money in money market accounts. Can I do this through my local credit union?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Greymane
Originally Posted By: tubby
Twocats is a teacher and has her pension and medical paid for by the taxpayers and has no concept of finances in the real world.



Exactly. Talk about lack of personal responsibility.

Right because going back to college and investing in an education to contract with a state agency that offers a pension plan is totally irresponsible.
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: twocats
Government requires 401(k) plans to be invested in the stock market.



Really? You can't invest your 401K in bonds, mutual funds, gold, silver, or money market accounts? When did that change?


Aren't gold, silver, bonds and mutual funds traded at the stock exchange?



Gold and silver are traded on the commodities exchange. Bonds and mutual funds are traded on the securities exchange.


Originally Posted By: twocats
I did not know I could put my 403(b) money in money market accounts.


What does your 403(b) have to do with a 401k?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:31 PM

I am trying to learn about both since I have money in both. I'm not an economics whiz like this guy.
Planning for retirement raises a number of difficult questions. I’ll admit that I often get confused coming up with answers. And I’m an economics graduate who started investing in high school and enjoys reading financial articles. I have sympathy for anyone that feels overwhelmed or confused by the experts.

I think the main problem is that experts tell you what to do without telling you why to do it. Cookie cutter advice fails with a task as individual as retirement planning. We need to separate fact from judgment, and that’s what I’ll try to do in this article.

In regular accounts, you can generally invest in whatever you want. You can buy any publicly traded stock, or you can withdraw the money and invest in your friend’s private company–a real consideration for entrepreneurs.

In a 401(k), you are limited to what your company offers.

http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2008/0...et-the-experts/
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Government requires 401(k) plans to be invested in the stock market.

Originally Posted By: twocats
In a 401(k), you are limited to what your company offers.



So the government doesn't require 401 (k) plans be invested in the stock market?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/22/12 08:43 PM

I can't get a 401(k) at school. I get a 403(b). As far as I know, I can invest in stocks and bonds. The only thing I know is: diversify.
Posted by: mimi33

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 06:48 AM

If you are concerned about fluctuations in the market, most 403bs, 401ks , and 457 plans offer a fixed option with a guaranteed rate of return. Pension plans have gotten into trouble because the managers of the funds have invested in higher risk options that did not perform have well as expected. They were chasing returns and gambling with other peoples money. Most receive bonuses based on performance. They are more concerned about their money than yours.,
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 06:56 AM

She definitely shouldn't be as concerned as your average person she has a pension paid for by taxpayers with no contribution by her, a 401k is just a bonus for her, the rest us depend on it for our retirement.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Right because going back to college and investing in an education


the taxpayers paid for your education as you stated prior
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
In regular accounts, you can generally invest in whatever you want. You can buy any publicly traded stock, or you can withdraw the money and invest in your friend’s private company–a real consideration for entrepreneurs.

In a 401(k), you are limited to what your company offers.


open up your own ira or roth account with your money and not the taxpayers footing the bill
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
She definitely shouldn't be as concerned as your average person she has a pension paid for by taxpayers


60% of her final pay or about $45,000 a year pension with only a total of $15,000 contribution by her over 10 years

Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
She definitely shouldn't be as concerned as your average person she has a pension paid for by taxpayers with no contribution by her


plus a very generous healthcare benefit

thought the teachers said they were underpaid?
how does she have money left over to invest?

must be from the taxpayers covering ALL of her pension and healthcare costs

time for NYS to convert to a 401k paln for the school employees
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


show us the numbers

what is the earliest age that tier 1-5 retire at?
what is percentage they contribute per year out of their salary?
how many years do they have to contribute?
do they receive 60% of their final salary for their pension?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 09:16 AM

Stop chasing your tail and do your own research...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/23/12 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


you made the statement now back it up

if the teacher only pays in $15,000 into their pension but gets out over a $1 million guess who makes uo the difference

...the taxpayers pays the difference


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/24/12 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


good then eliminate the pensions and you can pay for your own retirement

$45,000 pension per year plus $25,000+ for SS per year plus another $20,000 from your own ira

$45,000 + $25,000 + $20,000 = $90,000 per year plus the taxpayers pay for your overly generous healthcare

no wonder you all retire at 55...

or is that why the union was going to 'close down NYS' if they had to convert to a 401k plan?
Posted by: Jseemore

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/24/12 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
.... the managers of the funds have invested in higher risk options that did not perform have well as expected. They were chasing returns and gambling with other peoples money. Most receive bonuses based on performance. They are more concerned about their money than yours.,


Defines the Obama administration....now returning you to your regularly scheduled debate.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/30/12 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


incorrect as you only put in $13,000 but get out over $800,000
did you let madoff run it for a few years?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/02/12 09:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


then why have other employers removed pensions from their benefit package?
Posted by: Sketch

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 08:01 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


then why have other employers removed pensions from their benefit package?


NYS's pension system is indeed one of the strongest and most profitable in the country, if not the best.

Converting that into a 401K system would be a mistake.
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?
then why have other employers removed pensions from their benefit package?
To increase the bottom line for the company and justify higher bonuses and comp packages for the executives.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Sketch
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?
NYS's pension system is indeed one of the strongest and most profitable in the country, if not the best.


not for the taxpayers as they pay for 95% of the benefits for the state employees

Posted by: Sketch

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sketch
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?
NYS's pension system is indeed one of the strongest and most profitable in the country, if not the best.


not for the taxpayers as they pay for 95% of the benefits for the state employees



Your assertion that the taxpayers are being drained by contributions to pensions is misinformed at best. On average, the state contri's run at 3%, with NYS being 2.9%. The implementation of 2 new tiers further alleviates that cost.
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


show us the numbers

what is the earliest age that tier 1-5 retire at?
what is percentage they contribute per year out of their salary?
how many years do they have to contribute?
do they receive 60% of their final salary for their pension?



The age is roughly 63-65 not 55. Unless you are a Correctional officer then it is 25 years of service. Or a trooper which is 20 years of service.

The percentage is 3-6 percent dependeing on salary. the more you make the more you give in. tiers 1-4 contribute until the employee is vested at 10 years. tiers 5 and 6 are vested after 10 years bu must contibute for the duration of employment.

percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.

Employees and retirees do not get free healthcare. it is taken out of there check. retirees may use unused sick time accrued over many years to pay for a portion of it.

90% of investment returns means that the other 10 percent is paid for largly by current employee contributions. Impact to taxpayers is minimal.

misinformation.
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sketch
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?
NYS's pension system is indeed one of the strongest and most profitable in the country, if not the best.


not for the taxpayers as they pay for 95% of the benefits for the state employees

Where did this number come from?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/04/12 04:52 PM

Don't bother. He makes it up as he goes along.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/05/12 08:33 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Don't bother. He makes it up as he goes along.

your words

Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years



if you were making $45,000 in the beginning of your teaching career that would be about $15,000 that you 'contributed' to your pensions for the first ten years and there after you 'contribute' zero but when you retire you would get about $900,000 or $45,000 (60% of final pay) for over 20 years of retirememt


who made up the difference between the $15,000 that you paid into your pension and the $900,000 that you got during your retirement?

(clue=taxpayers)


Worksheet # 3. How much do I need to invest each month?

Goal (total amount I'd like to have) $900,000.00
Number of years 30
Annual percentage rate of return (e.g., 7.95) 7.5
Monthly contribution required $667.93

are you contributing about $700 of your money now per month?

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
Is the life expectancy 92 in bz world?

retirement at 55 to 85

Retire at 62 minimum--live to 78. That's 16 years. NOT 30.

age 55 for tier 4 and age 57 for tier 5


New York’s public pension plans are organized into benefit “tiers” based on hiring dates, as follows:

• Tier 1 benefits are available to all employees hired before June 30, 1973;
• Tier 2 covers all employees hired on or after June 30, 1973 and before July 27, 1976;
• Tier 3 covers employees hired on or after July 27, 1976, and before Sept. 1, 1983;
• Tier 4 includes all employees hired on or after Sept. 1, 1983, and before Jan. 1, 2010; and
• Tier 5 covers employees hired on or after Jan. 1, 2010.

current tier 4
retirement age 55
employee contribution 3% first 10 years

tier 5 retirement age 57
employee contribution 3% all years

original tier 4 retirement age 62
employee contribution 3% all years

Tier 5: A lost opportunity

On December 2, 2009, the New York State Legislature voted to create a fifth tier of slightly reduced pension benefits for state and local employees hired after Jan. 1, 2010. However, while benefits in the new plan are less expensive than those in pre-vious tiers, Tier 5 does not live up to the “significant pension reform” promised by Governor David Paterson when he originally proposed the law. As shown below, the Tier 5 changes for members of the New York State Employee Retirement System (ERS) restored most key elements of the original 1983 Tier 4 pension plan, before those benefits were repeatedly enhanced in the 1990s.

The most significant difference between Tier 5 and the original Tier 4 benefits for ERS members involves the use of overtime in computing final average salaries. Un-restricted in all previous plans, overtime for Tier 5 ERS members will now be subject to a $15,000 cap, “indexed” to grow at 3 percent a year.

Teachers outside New York City got a different Tier 5 deal: their minimum retire-ment age will be raised only two years, to 57. The employee contribution for Tier 5 members of the New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (NYSTRS) will be made permanent at a slightly higher rate of 3.5 percent.

Governor Paterson first introduced the Tier 5 bill in the spring of 2009, but he se-cured its passage only after making a series of costly concessions to labor unions in exchange for their agreement not to lobby against the pension changes:

• The state’s two largest unions, the Civil Service Employees Association (CSEA) and the Public Employees Federation (PEF) won an unprecedented no-layoff pledge from the governor. (Paterson later sought to renege on the deal by an-nouncing layoffs in late 2010—but no layoffs seemed likely to occur before he left office.)
New York State United Teachers (NYSUT) achieved its highest pension-related priority—a plan offering some teachers a chance to retire at age 55 after only 25 years of service. NYSUT also won the permanent enactment of a temporary law, annually renewed since 1994, that effectively allows its local chapters to veto any changes in retiree health benefits.



if the teacher is only putting 3% then who is making up the other 97%.......hummmmmmm

taxpayers????





Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/05/12 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Where did this number come from?


Originally Posted By: twocats

I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


is it no wonder the teachers do not want a 401k style plan where they have to contribute much more of their own pay to see the overly generous retirement pay that they see now


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
$42,000 per year
Originally Posted By: twocats
No Geneva teachers make enough to get that much in retirement.

Originally Posted By: twocats
So it's not FULL nor completely. It's fantastic


the article below states $42,000

Quote:
The new pension tier Cuomo outlined this week achieves two unlikely accomplishments: It creates large savings for public employers, yet remains generous to future employees.
The plan would offer a choice between a traditional pension and a 401(k)-style program, but only for future hires. Public employees in this state stay in the pension tier in place on the day they're hired.
Those who opt for the defined benefit in this new Tier 6 would get pensions 16 percent smaller than in the current system. For example, a worker in Tier 5 for 30 years who has a final salary of $70,000 gets a pension of $42,000 per year . In Tier 6, it would be $35,000, and unlike now, overtime and bonuses would not be used in setting the pension.
Tier 6 participants wouldn't be eligible for retirement at 62, as in Tier 5, but would have to be 65. And they'd have to kick in more; the current employee contribution is 3 percent, but Tier 6 employees would pay 4, 5 or 6 percent of their pay, with the highest-earning employees paying the most. The contribution level could also go up and down -- just as the pension bill does for counties and towns -- as the investment return of the pension fund soars or sinks.
New employees who opt for the 401(k)-type plan would get an automatic employer contribution of 4 percent of their pay, and as much as 3 percent more as a match if they contribute that much themselves. Their plans would also be portable, and vest after one year. Currently, pensions vest in 10.
Over 30 years, Tier 6 would reduce retirement costs by 50 percent, saving New York City $30 billion and public employers outside the city $83 billion. It would also allow prudent workers to enjoy comfortable retirements, though those who opt for the 401(k) would be wise to kick in at least the 3 percent their employers will match, just as they would into the traditional pension.
Experience has shown that people often mismanage their 401(k)s. But the frenzied opposition by union leaders is a huge public relations error. Tier 6 will offer public employees, via the pension or the 401(k), a far more generous retirement than most private sector workers footing most of the bill look forward to.
Many private-sector workers -- with little job security, no pension and either no 401(k) or a smaller employer contribution than this plan provides -- are weary of hearing about the "rights" of public workers. People are losing their houses because they can't pay the sky-high taxes that support the benefits of public workers. The tide has turned.

Tier 6 is a step toward bringing public retirement plans in line with the real world, and via the 401(k) portion, setting the state on a path to a retirement plan with predictable obligations. It may turn out be too generous -- and unions may view it more fondly when they're fighting Tier 7.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/05/12 06:18 PM

• New York's Exploding Pension Costs - The Empire Center for New ...



... tax-funded annual contributions to the New York State Teachers ... inflation of future pension payments, and the permanent elimination of employee contributions for Tier …
http://www.empirecenter.org/Special-Reports/2010/12/pensionexplosion...




New York's Exploding Pension Costs
Complete report in PDF format
December 07, 2010
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Public pension costs in New York are mushrooming—just when taxpayers can least afford it. Over the next five years, tax-funded annual contributions to the New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (NYSTRS) will more than quadruple, while contributions to the New York State and Local Retirement System (NYSLRS) will more than double, according to estimates presented in this report. New York City’s budgeted pension costs, which already have increased tenfold in the past decade, will rise by at least 20 percent more in the next three years, according to the city’s financial plan projections.
NYSTRS and NYSLRS are “fully funded” by government actuarial standards, but we estimate they have combined funding shortfalls of $120 billion when their liabilities are measured using private-sector accounting rules. Based on a similar alternative standard, New York City’s pension funds had unfunded liabilities of $76 billion as of mid-2008—before their net asset values plunged in the wake of the financial crisis.

The run-up in pension costs threatens to divert scarce resources from essential public services during a time of extreme fiscal and economic stress for every level of government. New York needs to enact fundamental pension reform to permanently eliminate the risks and unpredictability inherent in the traditional pension system.

INTRODUCTION

In November 2003, the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research issued a report de-scribing New York State’s public pension system as “a ticking fiscal time bomb.”

The bomb is now exploding—and New Yorkers will be coping with the fallout for years to come.

New York’s state and local taxpayers support three public pension funds encompassing eight different retirement systems—five covering different groups of New York City employees, and three covering employees of the state, local governments, school districts and public authorities outside the city. Between 2007 and 2009, these funds lost a collective total of more than $109 billion, or 29 percent of their combined assets. Two of the three funds ended their 2010 fiscal years with asset values below fiscal 2000 levels; the third has barely grown in the past decade.

Meanwhile, the number of pension fund retirees and other beneficiaries has risen 20 percent and total pension benefit payments have doubled in the past 10 years. Tax-payers will now have to make up for the resulting pension fund shortfalls.

This report forecasts pension funding trends for the New York State and Local Re-tirement Systems (NYSLRS) and the New York State Teachers Retirement System (NYSTRS), which cover nearly every public employee outside New York City. It also summarizes official reports of funded status and projected costs over the next three years for the New York City Retirement Systems. Assuming the pension systems all hit their rate-of-return targets:

• Taxpayer contributions to NYSTRS could more than quadruple, rising from about $900 million as of 2010-11 to about $4.5 billion by 2015-16. The projected increase is equivalent to 18 percent of current school property tax levies.
• State and local employer contributions to NYSLRS will more than double over the next five years, adding nearly $4 billion to annual taxpayer costs even if most opt to convert a portion of their higher pension bills into IOUs that won’t be paid off until the 2020s.
• New York City’s budgeted pension contributions, which already have in-creased by more than 500 percent ($5.8 billion) in the last decade, are projected to increase at least 20 percent more, or $1.4 billion, in the next three years.

Pension costs would be even higher if New York’s state and local retirement funds were not calculating pension contributions based on permissive government accounting standards, which allow them to understate their true liabilities.

While New York’s two state pension systems officially are deemed “fully funded,” we estimate that NYSLRS is $71 billion short of what it will need to fund its pension obligations, and that NYSTRS has a funding shortfall of $49 billion, based on valuation standards applied to corporate pension funds.

The need for reform

The record-breaking investment returns of the 1980s and ‘90s lulled New York’s elected leaders into a false sense of complacency. State and local payrolls were expanded and retirement benefits were enhanced under the assumption that pension costs would remain near historic lows. The downturn of 2000-03 and its impact on pension costs should have come as a wake-up call to state officials. Instead, they responded with pension funding gimmicks and minimal “reforms.”

In the short run, assuming the state Constitution is interpreted as allowing no change in benefits for current workers, there is no financially responsible way to avoid the coming increases in pensions costs. However, state and local officials in New York can seek to contain the damage by reducing headcount where appropriate, and by exploring ways of saving money on employee compensation, including wage increases and health insurance benefits. A statewide public-sector salary freeze—which the Legislature has the power to impose, according to a legal analysis commissioned by the Empire Center1 —could help minimize the extent to which rising pension costs force service cutbacks, layoffs or tax hikes. But these will just be bandages covering a more fundamental problem.

The lesson is clear: the traditional pension system exposes taxpayers to intolerable levels of financial risk and volatility. New York’s existing defined-benefit (DB) public pension plans need to be closed to new members, once and for all. They should be replaced either by defined-contribution (DC) plans modeled on the 401(k) accounts that most private workers rely for their own retirement, or by “hybrid” plans, combining elements of DB and DC plans, that cap benefits and require employees to share in some of the financial risks of retirement planning.

This is not just a matter of financial necessity but of basic fairness to current and future taxpayers—the vast majority of whom will never receive anything approaching the costly, guaranteed benefits available to public employees.

1. PENSION FUNDING TRENDS


New York’s 1.3 million state and local government employees belong to defined-benefit (DB) pension plans, which guarantee a stream of post-retirement income based on peak average salaries and career duration. Pension (and disability) benefits are financed by large investment pools, which in turn are replenished by tax-funded employer contributions. Some public employees, depending on their hiring date and “tier” membership, also contribute a small share of their own salaries to pension funds (see Appendix).

While employee contributions (where required) are fixed or capped, contributions by employers fluctuate, based on actuarial assumptions. The rate of return on pension fund assets is the key determinant of pension costs to taxpayers. Since the mid-1980s, when pension funds began allocating more of their assets to stock investments, those rate of return assumptions have ranged from 7.5 percent to 8.75 percent; for most of the last 10 years, New York’s public pension plans have assumed their investments would yield an average annual return of 8 percent.





During the historic bull market of the 1980s and ‘90s, investment gains easily exceeded expectations, averaging in the double digits. The result, as shown in Figure 1: tax-funded employer contributions tumbled in the three state pension plans covering employees outside New York City. By 2000, employer contribution rates for members of these plans essentially had dropped to zero.2

Government workers shared in the market windfall. The state Legislature repeatedly increased pension benefits for targeted groups of employees during the 1990s. Those enhancements were topped off in 2000 by the state Legislature’s approval of cost-of-living adjustments in all public pensions, automatic partial indexing to inflation of future pension payments, and the permanent elimination of employee contributions for Tier 3 and 4 retirement system members who had been on the payroll for at least 10 years.3 Lawmakers essentially sold these changes to the public as a free lunch, assuming the stock market boom would continue indefinitely.

In fact, as elected officials should have recognized, the minimal employer contribution rates of 1990s were a historical anomaly. “Normal” contribution rates—assuming a hypothetical steady state of asset returns meeting investment targets—would have ranged from 11 to 12 percent for most non-uniformed state and local employees, including teachers, to nearly 20 percent for most police and firefighters in NYSLRS.

The decade that followed the enactment of the major pension sweeteners was characterized by extremely volatile—and ultimately stagnant—investment returns. Asset values dropped sharply between 2000 and 2002, recovered over the next five years, and then dropped sharply after 2007.

Despite the recent stock market recovery, the net assets of the New York City pension funds and the New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (NYSTRS) as of 2010 were still below 2000 levels, while the net assets of the New York State and Local Retirement System (NYSLRS) were up just 4 percent on the decade.* Meanwhile, total benefit payments doubled between 2000 and 2010. The year-by-year trends for the period are shown in Figure 2.





* NYSLERS includes both the State and Local Employee Retirement System and the Police and Fire Retirement System.

The combination of falling asset prices and rising benefit outlays meant the pension funds were developing huge shortfalls. Meanwhile, employee contributions into the state pension funds actually decreased during this period, as a growing number of Tier 3 and 4 members reached the 10-year seniority mark.4 Taxpayers were left to pick up the slack, as shown in Figure 3. In 2000, tax-funded employer contributions to New York’s pension funds totaled just under $1 billion. By 2010, they had risen to a combined $17.3 billion for the state and New York City systems.

But this was just the beginning of the pension explosion.





2. THE WRONG KIND OF “BOOM”

How hard will taxpayers be hit by New York’s coming pension explosion? To answer that question, we have projected employer contribution rates for NYSLRS and NYSTRS for each of the next five years. These projections are based on assumptions about future events, particularly the performance of fund assets, but also growth in employee headcount and salaries.

These projections represent our best effort to replicate the funds’ contribution rate calculations under the Aggregate Funding Method used by the pension system actuaries. Because the funds do not make public their expected streams of future cash flows, we must make assumptions about the path of changes in certain figures that form a part of those calculations, particularly the present value of the salaries that currently active employees are expected to earn. However, we believe that these projections represent a good estimate based on publicly available data, and can provide state and local governments with useful guidance about the path of pension costs in future years.

We projected contributions in three scenarios: “Base,” in which the pension systems hit their current investment targets (7.5 percent for NYSLRS, 8.0 percent for NYSTRS); “High Returns,” defined as 11 percent per year; and “Low Returns,” de-fined as 5 percent per year. We also estimated tax-funded contributions to NYSLRS over the next five years assuming that local employers opt to join the state in cap-ping pension contributions and amortizing excess amounts for a 10-year period.




Pension “mitigation”: Cap and owe

Under a new law backed by Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli and approved as part of the 2011-12 state budget,5 the state government’s fiscal 2010-11 pension contribution rates will be capped at “graded rates” of 9.5 percent for the ERS members and 17.5 percent for PFRS members, instead of the billed rates of 11.9 percent and 18.2 percent, respectively.

Starting in fiscal 2011-12, the contribution rates used to calculate the state’s pension bill will be allowed to increase by only one percentage point a year, starting at this year’s capped level. Billed contributions above that amount in any given year can be spread, or amortized, over 10 years, payable to the pension fund at a rate pegged to interest on taxable bonds, generally in the neighborhood of 5 percent. As part of the deal, the minimum contribution level is permanently fixed at 4 percent. Local governments have been given the option of joining this “rate mitigation program,” and many are already choosing to do so.

Delayed payments will be counted as liabilities on employer balance sheets, and as receivable “assets” of the pension fund. The comptroller has strongly taken issue with any suggestion that this program is tantamount to borrowing from the pension fund. Semantics aside, however, there is no denying that the cap on pension payments simply transfers liabilities into the future—well into the 2020s, at a minimum. Assuming all local government employers amortize a portion of what they will owe the pension fund, and assuming the funds’ asset returns hit their 7.5 percent target, we estimate a total of $11 billion in state and local pension payments will be deferred over the next five years—stretching these costs into the middle of the next decade.

In any event, even employers choosing to amortize will experience a doubling of ERS contributions and a near doubling in total PFRS contributions over the next five years. If asset returns are high enough to drive down rates quickly after a few years, those employers will continue paying higher rates for a longer period. School districts paying into the NYSTRS, which has no amortization option, will see their contributions quadruple even under our rosiest scenario for asset returns over the next five years.

The impact of the projected base rates on total contribution amounts is depicted in Figure 4. The $3.6 billion rise in teacher pension contributions (from about $900 mil-lion in 2010-11 to $4.5 billion in 2015-16) equates to 18 percent of 2010-11 school tax levies, or an average increase of nearly 3.5 percent a year. This is well above the annual property tax growth that would be allowed under a 2 percent tax cap proposed by Governor-elect Andrew Cuomo.



The Big Apple’s bomb

Virtually all New York City employees (and some employees of the city Transit Authority) belong to one of five different municipal pension systems. The systems have different funding and contribution levels while pooling their assets in a common city pension trust fund.

The financing of these pension plans is arcane and complex compared to those of NYSLRS and NYSTRS. Crucial pension fund financial data for the 2009 and 2010 fiscal years has not yet been published, and the city Office of Management and Budget (OMB) uses an opaque process to generate the city’s official pension cost estimates.

The city’s pension contribution averaged about $1.4 billion during the late 1990s and dipped as low as $615 million in 2000. By 2010, the contribution had risen to an all-time high of $6.6 billion—and it’s still climbing. OMB’s official financial plan estimates of pension obligations are depicted in Figure 5.




These figures, which show the pension contribution growing from $7 billion in 2011 to $8.4 billion in fiscal 2014, reflect changes made by OMB in its November budget modifications in anticipation of a forthcoming revision of actuarial assumptions. Given the steep losses sustained by city pension funds in 2007-2009 (as shown in Figure 2 on page 4) and the underfunded status of the pension plans even before the downturn, the pension contribution is likely to grow significantly after fiscal 2014.

Measuring pension fund assets and liabilities

Parties obligated to pay an amount at some future date need to know the size of that obligation in today’s dollars, which will tell them how much money to set aside. That sum can be smaller than the principal amount due because it can earn interest until the due date. If, for example, you owe $10,000 in ten years, and your savings account offers an interest rate of 3 percent, you would need to set aside only $7,441 today. In this example, you have assessed your future obligations using a 3 percent “discount rate”—the rate at which the principal due is discounted over a given period of time to produce the loan’s net present value.

The discount rate applied to future obligations is a crucial determinant of a pension system’s necessary funding levels: the lower the rate, the larger the contributions required to maintain “fully funded” status, meaning the assets are sufficient to cover all promised pension benefits.

Private pension plans must discount liabilities based on what’s known as a “market” rate—typically, the interest paid on bonds issued by financially solid corporations. This is often much lower than the plans’ projected returns, but it reflects what the money would be earning if invested in lower-risk assets, matching the low risk tolerance of future retirees who are counting on their promised pensions.

Public funds, however, are allowed to discount their long-term liabilities based on the targeted annual rate of return on their assets—i.e., what they hope to earn from investments in a basket of assets dominated by stocks, which offer a chance of higher returns in exchange for higher risk of losses.


Until recently, all of New York’s public pension funds had pegged their target rates at 8 percent, like most other public systems around the country. In 2010, Comptroller DiNapoli, acting as sole trustee of the New York State & Local Employee Retirement System, adopted new actuarial guidelines reducing the target rate for state pension funds to 7.5 percent, along with other changes in actuarial assumptions concerning career duration, salaries and life expectancy. These are all factored into the system’s employer contribution rates going forward. The New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (overseen by a separate board of trustees) and the New York City pension funds will also be considering changes to their rate of return assumptions in 2011.

While most public pension managers continue to resist the idea, many independent actuaries and financial economists agree that the net present value of risk-free public pension promises should be calculated on the basis of low-risk market interest rates. Using this approach, for example, Andrew Biggs of the American Enterprise Institute has estimated that state pensions across the country are underfunded by $3 trillion, or six times the officially reported under-funding estimates as of 2008.6 This estimate doesn't even take into account the impact of the 2008 market downturn on pension fund asset values.

Indeed, sharp drops in asset values cause pension plans' financial statements to become even more misleading. When a pension plan underperforms its targeted in-vestment returns, it does not recognize the loss immediately; instead, it “smooths" recognition of the loss over a period of years, usually five. This means that most pension plans will not have fully recognized the stock market declines of 2008 and 2009 until 2014. For example, while ERS held assets with a market value of $94 billion as of March 31, 2009, it reported an actuarial asset value of $126 billion on that date—and that $126 billion figure underpins the plan's claim that it is 101 percent funded.

In this report, we also present “market value” funding data for New York’s state and local pension funds, in addition to the more-commonly discussed actuarial funding basis. For the statewide pension funds, we calculated our market value funding calculations by using the most recent available data on market value of assets from the funds’ Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports. In the case of NYSLRS, the data are for March 31, 2009; for NYSTRS, the data are current as of June 30, 2009.7

We also adjusted the estimated pension liabilities to a “market value liability” calculation by using a discount rate based on high-quality corporate bonds, provided by Mercer Consulting as of September 2010. As is the standard practice for public sector pension funds, these funds’ actuarial liabilities are calculated by discounting future payments to a present value using discount rate equal to the funds’ expected rate of return: 7.5 percent for ERS and PFRS, and 8 percent for TRS. Our adjusted discount rate is approximately 5 percent, varying slightly depending on the funds’ mix of active and retired participants. This lower discount rate reflects the typical practice for private-sector pension plans, with a discount rate based on the risk experienced by pension beneficiaries.

For the New York City pension systems, market valuation measures are already included in official financial reports, so we simply reproduce those along with our estimates for the state funds, based on their latest published financial data, in Table 2. It should be noted that the city’s actuarial and market-based data in the table are for fiscal 2008, and do not reflect the fund’s losses in 2009.





As of their reporting dates in 2009 (March 31 for New York State ERS and PFRS, and June 30 for NYSTRS), each of the state systems reported an actuarial funding ratio of slightly more than 100 percent. But recalculating these figures on a market value basis shows a much worse funding situation: TRS was just 60 percent funded, PFRS 58 percent, and ERS 56 percent. The discrepancy has two sources: sharp stock market declines in late 2008 and early 2009 meant that the market value of these plans' assets was far below their actuarial value. And changing to a market value discount rate significantly increases the plans' measured liabilities.

Updated liability estimates

In the year following the last official actuarial reporting date, asset values rebounded somewhat. We estimate the New York State ERS and PFRS were 65 percent and 69 percent funded, respectively, using a market rate standard as of March 31, 2010. The market-rate unfunded liabilities for these two systems came to $71 billion, including $61.8 billion for ERS and $9.5 billion for PFRS, according to our calculations. NYSTRS was approximately 61 percent funded as of June 30, 2010, with a shortfall of $49.2 billion. Thus, the combined shortfall for the two systems came to $120 billion, while the official estimate of the shortfall in the city funds, measured on a market basis, came to $76 billion as of June 30, 2008.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/05/12 06:31 PM

Quote:


New York's Exploding Pension Costs, Page 2
Complete report in PDF format
December 07, 2010

3. REAL PENSION REFORM FOR NEW YORK

The investment losses sustained by New York’s pension funds in the past decade have created deep holes that must be filled. The resulting pension cost increases de-scribed in this report cannot be avoided in the short term. Unlike officials in some other states, such as New Jersey, New York officials cannot ignore the problem by skipping or under-funding required pension contributions—if only because New York’s highest court has made it clear it will not allow them to do so.8

Article 5, Section 7 of New York’s Constitution guarantees that pension benefits shall not be “diminished or impaired”—which is widely assumed to mean that employees cannot be required to help pay for the rising costs for their future benefits, even benefits they have not yet accrued. As a result, New York government employees are benefitting from what a leading commentator on retirement finances has called the “public pension straddle option,” which allowed workers to collect bigger benefits financed by excess investment gains in the 1980s and ‘90s, while forcing taxpayers to cover subsequent pension fund investment losses.9

But it doesn’t have to stay that way. The Empire State can—and should—ultimately eliminate the intolerable financial risks, volatility and unpredictability of the existing pension system. From the standpoint of employers and taxpayers, the best way to accomplish this would be to shift new employees to defined-contribution (DC) plans modeled on the 401(k) accounts now prevalent in the private sector, or the 403(b) plan available to State University and City University of New York employees.

Instead of a single common retirement fund, a defined-contribution plan consists of individual accounts supported by employer contributions, usually matched at least in part by the employees’ own savings. These contributions are not subject to federal, state or local income taxes until withdrawn. Funds in the accounts are managed by private firms and invested in a combination of stocks and bonds. In a DB system, the employer promises to finance a future retirement benefit for a large group of current and former workers. In a DC system, the employer’s obligation is discharged immediately, through regular contributions to the retirement accounts of each employee. The size of the ultimate retirement benefit generated by a DC plan depends on the amount of savings and investment returns the worker is able to accumulate over the course of his or her working life. The downside risk of unanticipated investment losses and the upside potential for unanticipated investment gains are both shifted from the employer to the employee.


While a growing number of states have been making changes to their pension sys-tems—including 11 in 2010 alone—pure DC plans so far have been mandated in only two states, Michigan and Alaska. In the wake of the November 2010 election, at least six newly elected governors in other states were “looking favorably at some form of 401(k)-style retirement plan for public employees, adding to the momentum building nationally for a shift away from traditional guaranteed pensions,” the Pew Center’s Stateline web site recently reported.10 The Michigan experience, which began earlier and covers many more employees, is particularly instructive (see below).

An alternative to a pure DC plan would be a “hybrid” combining elements of both DB and DC plans. A model for this approach was recently adopted by the state of Utah, which closed its existing DB plan to newly hired employees. State workers in Utah now have a choice between a pure DC plan or a combined DC and DB plan—but in both plans, the tax-funded employer contribution is capped at 10 percent of salaries.11 Thus, while employees share in the upside of investment gains, they must also share in the risk of investment losses.


The federal government adopted the hybrid model in 1984, when it replaced its own traditional pension plan for civilian workers with a combination of a small DB pension and a DC supplement known as the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP).12



The downside of a hybrid plan is that, by retaining elements of the DB pension structure, it also retains opportunities for the kind of steady sweetening that occurred when funding levels rose in the current system. The actuarial and financial accounting involved in the DB system is dauntingly complex, inviting the kind of buy-now, pay-later options that politicians often are unable to resist.

There need not be a single statewide model of reform. The next Governor and Legis-lature could create a set of new retirement plan options for local governments, school districts and public authorities to choose from. Some might opt for a pure DC plan and some for hybrids, while others might decide to allow their employees to choose between the two.

Pension reform can be justified as a matter of fairness as well as financial prudence. Taxpayers last year kicked in an average of $8.24 for every dollar of employee con-tributions to the NYSLRS, $6.64 for every dollar of employee contributions to the NYSTRS, and $8.73 for every employee dollar contributed to the New York City pension funds,13 and those ratios will rise steeply in the next few years along with employer contribution rates.

Yet the vast majority of New Yorkers do not enjoy retirement benefits even approaching those available to public employees. Nationally, less than one in five private workers has access to an employer-sponsored DB pension plan; as noted, most of those who have access to any employer-sponsored retirement plan are dependent on 401(k)-style accounts. Where traditional pensions still exist, their benefits are usually smaller—and, of course, are not guaranteed if a plan sponsor goes bankrupt or otherwise lacks the assets to make good on its promises.


The average retirement benefit for all state and local government retirees in New York as of 2009 was $27,601—more than twice the average company or union pension of $13,105.14 While many private pensions are reduced by a percentage of Social Security payments, retired state and local employees in New York collect full Social Security benefits on top of their pensions, which are also exempt from state and local income taxes.

The cost of replicating a stream of income equaling a typical public pension would be prohibitive for a private sector worker approaching retirement. For example, as of 2009-10, the median retirement age for teachers in NYSTRS was just over 59, and the median annual pension benefit was $47,000. A male private-sector worker would need to save $860,000 to purchase a guaranteed lifetime annuity paying the same income stream starting at the same age.15 Teachers in New York City suburbs retiring in their mid-50s can qualify for a stream of pension income that would cost $1.2 million to replicate as an annuity.16 These figures do not include the value of heavily employer-subsidized health insurance coverage, which most teachers also continue to receive throughout retirement. Retiree health insurance coverage is now even more rare than DB pensions in the private sector.17

If public employees were instead covered by DC or hybrid DB-DC plans like those described above, they would still receive benefits superior to those available to most workers in the private sector. But they would at least shoulder downside risks as well as upside gains of long-term investments. Taxpayers would no longer be ex-posed to potentially open-ended liabilities. And a retirement plan requiring workers to share more equally in the costs of their benefits would discourage the seemingly limitless varieties of pension gaming encouraged by the existing system.

State officials should not settle for creating a “Tier 6” that incrementally adjusts some existing pension parameters while preserving a fatally flawed system that exposes taxpayers to potentially open-ended liabilities. As New York’s previous experiences with “pension reform” demonstrate, even an ambitious attempt to reduce the costs of traditional pensions (such as the Tier 3 plan of 1976, as further explained in the Appendix) is likely to be undone at the first sign of a market upturn—and the financial implications of such changes will be poorly communicated to and understood by the public.

Any pension reform should retain the existing Taylor Law provision prohibiting col-lective bargaining of pension benefits—and that provision should be expanded to cover other retirement benefits. This is an essential step towards getting a handle on more than $200 billion in unfunded liabilities for retiree health coverage currently promised (but not constitutionally guaranteed) by state and local governments.

“True North” transparency

The state's pension funds need to release more information about the true extent of the financial risk to which they have exposed taxpayers, who are ultimately respon-sible for backing up the constitutional guarantee of pension benefits.

Robert North, New York City’s chief pension actuary, has become a national leader in this area by reporting alternative measures of funded status for each of the city’s retirement systems, as cited in this report. Following North’s lead, all of New York State’s pension funds should be required by law to annually calculate alternative measures including their Market Value Accumulated Benefit Obligation (“MVABO”), an estimate of which was the basis for our own calculations of funded status for the NYSLRS and NYSTRS funds.

For the sake of improved transparency, New York’s pension funds should also be required to:

• Calculate the statistical likelihood that they will meet their average target rate of return over time horizons of five, 10, 15 and 20 years. Such calculations are essential to evaluating all of the potential risks and benefits of policy changes such as the NYSLRS amortization plan.
• Post their financial results in consistent formats on the Internet, allowing for “searchable” text and spreadsheet versions of numerical tables, including quarterly updates of investments.
• Calculate projected cash flows—i.e., the benefits they expect to pay over the next 15-20 years, prior to any discounting.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/06/12 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

current tier 4
retirement age 55
employee contribution 3% first 10 years

original tier 4 retirement age 62
employee contribution 3% all years



why did you have them change tier 4 so the teachers would get a better deal?

you get to retire earlier and you have to put even less into your own retirement

are you not able to contribute to your own retirement as everyone has to do?

who just paid the 17% increase in your health benefits?
unlikely you....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/07/12 07:25 AM

. NYSTRS was approximately 61 percent funded as of June 30, 2010, with a shortfall of $49.2 billion. Thus, the combined shortfall for the two systems came to [b]$120 billion[/], while the official estimate of the shortfall in the city funds, measured on a market basis, came to $76 billion as of June 30, 2008.


and who makes up the $120 billion difference?

dinapoli only had a 5.5% return for the past 12 months even though he predicted at least a 7.5% return

who makes up the 2% loss?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/11/12 10:43 AM

SAN DIEGO (AP) — Voters in two major California cities have overwhelmingly approved cuts to retirement benefits for city workers. Supporters are calling it a mandate that may lead to similar ballot initiatives in other states and cities that are struggling with mounting pension obligations.

In San Diego, 66 percent voted in favor of Proposition B, while 34 percent were opposed. Nearly 97 percent of precincts were tallied by early Wednesday.

The landslide was even bigger in San Jose, with 70 percent in favor of Measure B and 30 percent opposed. All precincts are counted.

Supporters had a simple message to voters in San Diego and San Jose: Pensions for city workers are unaffordable and more generous than many private companies offer, forcing libraries to slash hours and potholes to go unfilled.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/11/12 11:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
The end is near for public-sector unions
jeff jacoby


June 10, 2012|Jeff Jacoby



In retrospect, there were two conspicuous giveaways that Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker was headed for victory in last week’s recall election.

One was that the Democrats’ campaign against him wound up focusing on just about everything but Walker’s law limiting collective bargaining rights for government workers. Sixteen months ago, the Capitol building in Madison was besieged by rioting protesters hell-bent on blocking the changes by any means necessary. Union members and their supporters, incandescent with rage, likened Walker to Adolf Hitler and cheered as Democratic lawmakers fled the state in a bid to force the legislature to a standstill. Once the bill passed, unions and Democrats vowed revenge, and amassed a million signatures on recall petitions.



But the more voters saw of the law’s effects, the more they liked it. Dozens of school districts reported millions in savings, most without resorting to layoffs. Property taxes fell. A $3.6 billion state budget deficit turned into a $154 million projected surplus. Walker’s measures proved a tonic for the economy, and support for restoring the status quo ante faded — even among Wisconsin Democrats. Long before Election Day, Democratic challenger Tom Barrett had all but dropped the issue of public-sector collective bargaining from his campaign to replace Walker.

The second harbinger was the plunge in public-employee union membership. The most important of Walker’s reforms, the change Big Labor had fought most bitterly, was ending the automatic withholding of union dues. That made union membership a matter of choice, not compulsion — and tens of thousands of government workers chose to toss their union cards. More than one-third of the Wisconsin members of the American Federation of Teachers quit, reported The Wall Street Journal. At the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, one of the state’s largest unions, the hemorrhaging was worse: AFSCME’s Wisconsin rolls shrank by more than 34,000 over the past year, a 55 percent nose-dive.

Did government workers tear up their union cards solely because the union had lost its right to bargain collectively on their behalf? That’s doubtful: Even under the new law, unions still negotiate over salaries. More likely, public-sector employees ditched their unions for the same reasons so many employees in the private sector — which is now less than 7 percent unionized — have done so: Many never wanted to join a union in the first place. Others were repelled by the authoritarian, belligerent, and left-wing political culture that entrenched unionism so often embodies. \:\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/12/12 08:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Employees and retirees do not get free healthcare. it is taken out of there check. retirees may use unused sick time accrued over many years to pay for a portion of it.


but they do have healthcare at very little cost to them


Originally Posted By: Teonan

It would not be the end of health reform, just a chance to get it right

By Rose Ann DeMoro
The Huffington Post

June 5, 2012

If President Obama is now confiding to Democratic donors that he may have to "revisit" health care in a second term if the Supreme Court throws out his first attempt, as Bloomberg News reported June 1, maybe this time we can get it right.

Instead of trying to dress up our broken private insurance-based system, or resuscitating elements of a convoluted plan the court may overturn, it's time to try something different.

Fortunately, we have a well established, uniquely American model in place, one that meets the legal test. A program that already takes care of the 40 million Americans over 65. That has the added benefits of being universal in coverage and far more cost efficient than our present system.

It's called Medicare. And it's been working well for nearly 50 years, and remains wildly popular, even among those hate "Obamacare."

Even if the law is upheld, some 27 million Americans would remain uninsured by 2016, according to the Congressional Budget Office, families will continue to struggle with rising out-of-pocket health costs and un-payable medical bills and more employers will drop coverage or shift more costs to employees.


Over the past year, nurses have seen an alarming nexus between the economic decline and broad erosions in health status, such as stress-induced heart ailments, anxiety and "gut" disorders, health woes associated with poor nutrition, and illnesses traditionally seen in adults increasingly found in children. Nurses now routinely see patients skipping or delaying not just routine medical visits, but even cancer treatment and other life-saving or life prolonging care due to cost.

A library of surveys and studies document these worrisome trends.

A Centers for Disease Control analysis found a quarter of children age 17 and under were in families struggling to pay medical bills.

In 2010, 30 million Americans were contacted by debt collection companies chasing them to pay medical bills, a jump of 5 million people in just half a decade, the Commonwealth Fund reported. Unpaid bills as small as $250 were ruining credit records for many. Medical bills account for 62 percent of personal bankruptcies, and nearly 80 percent who went broke from health care had insurance.

Fifty million Americans still have no health coverage. Another 29 million are under insured with massive holes in their health plans, an increase of 80 percent since 2003, according to the journal Health Affairs.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/12 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
The percentage is 3-6 percent dependeing on salary. the more you make the more you give in. tiers 1-4 contribute until the employee is vested at 10 years. tiers 5 and 6 are vested after 10 years bu must contibute for the duration of employment.

percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.



and how much would they have to pay in for the first ten years?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/16/12 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
The percentage is 3-6 percent dependeing on salary. the more you make the more you give in. tiers 1-4 contribute until the employee is vested at 10 years. tiers 5 and 6 are vested after 10 years bu must contibute for the duration of employment.

percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.



would the teacher pay in about $15,000 but get $800,000+ out for retirement?

all workers should get a 'deal' like this
do not get shocked when your loaf of bread goes up to $10

is it time to start your 2 month paid vacation?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/17/12 05:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.


so if a teacher retires at a $75,000 final salary the retirement pay will an automatic $45,000 for the next 20-30 years when they only had to 'pay in' only 3% for the first ten years or about $15000

$45,000 x 20 = $900,000
$45,000 x 30 = $1,350,000

where can one only 'pay in' $15,000 and get $1,350,000 back?

make sure you add on the social security they would also get which would bring the teachers pension benefit close to their final pay or about $75,000

now tack on their overly generous healthcare coverage and you see why taxpayers are not getting a quality student performance for their dollars

everyone should get these overly generous retirement benefits if all 'costs' are covered by the 'teacher'


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/19/12 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.


can you name any other entity that offers 50-60% pension with little contribution by the employee?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/19/12 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.


the school taxes are skewed
only have the homeowners pay that have children in school as that would give everyone a true number of the dollars they are paying for the teachers overly generous pay and benfits

the school taxes for those with children would double or triple

time to convert to a 401k style retirement for the teachers and make them pay much more into their healthcare
Posted by: bluezone

Re:1 trillion shortfall state pensions - 06/20/12 07:46 PM

Quote:
U.S. public pension plans face $1 trillion shortfall
Nationwide, all together, public pension plans are $1 trillion short ... "I don't think our children should have to pay for these high pensions that give us…CBS News· 28 minutes ago


hummmm...............
Posted by: bluezone

Re:1 trillion shortfall state pensions - 06/20/12 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


appears your information is incorrect
Posted by: bluezone

Re:1 trillion shortfall state pensions - 06/26/12 07:01 AM

Quote:
U.S. public pension plans face $1 trillion shortfall
Nationwide, all together, public pension plans are $1 trillion short ... "I don't think our children should have to pay for these high pensions that give us…CBS News· 28 minutes ago



the money should be used to educate the children and not used to give the teachers a comfortable retirement

let the teachers pay into their own retirement like all others must do
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/27/12 06:46 AM

Untouchable Pensions May Be Tested in California
Mar 16, 2012 ... With Stockton, Calif., facing bankruptcy and a $30 million a year pension bill, a provision in the state Constitution that forbids cuts in public ...
http://www.nytimes.com/.../untouchable-pensions-in-california-may-be-put-to-the-test.html?...





Rhode Island Cuts Benefits to Current, Future State Retirees
Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012 | 12:34 PM ET


With anywhere between $2 and $4 trillion in unfunded municipal pension liabilities nationwide, states have been looking for ways to close the gap, Gina Raimondo, Rhode Island’s General Treasurer, told CNBC’s “Squawk on the Street.”

The new law aims to save $4 billion over the next two decades and keep costs steady and predictable for taxpayers, Raimondo said. Slated to be implemented July 1, the law changed the investment assumptions for the pension plan and raised the retirement age.
Rhode Island’s reforms cuts benefits for both existing and future workers. But Raimondo believes it comes down to fairness. “There is an intergenerational fairness issue here,” she said. “I think it is unfair to fix the problem on the backs of only the young workers.”

“This is about reality, we decided it was time to just face the facts, make tough choices and move forward,” Raimondo said.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/17/12 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
It's probably single-payer too.


time to convert the teachers to pay their own healthcare along with fully funding their own 401k
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/17/12 06:37 PM

This one is for twocats... thought she would particularly enjoy it.

Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/19/12 10:58 AM

I love it! I shared it on my Facebook page. I'm sure that young man had to go to summer school because the school failed him. It probably had nothing to do with him or effort he expended!
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/19/12 11:07 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
I love it! I shared it on my Facebook page. I'm sure that young man had to go to summer school because the school failed him. It probably had nothing to do with him or effort he expended!

The school didn't fail him, the union teachers did.
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/19/12 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: twocats
I love it! I shared it on my Facebook page. I'm sure that young man had to go to summer school because the school failed him. It probably had nothing to do with him or effort he expended!

The school didn't fail him, the union teachers did.

Oh yeah... it was the teachers. (note the sarcasm)

Ever hear of something called "personal responsibility" Harley? Did they forget to teach you that one in the military?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/12 08:22 AM

had two individuals on capital tonight talking about the out of control money for pensions, salary and healthcare for the public workers

municipal bankruptcy

salaries in the past were below the private sector and the benefits made up for it

now with the triborough and taylor laws the salaries are above the private sector and the pensions/healthcare can not be reduce or adjusted
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/12 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Oh yeah... it was the teachers. (note the sarcasm)



over paid, extremely generous pensions and healthcare coverage
the teachers seem to have every excuse in the book...

why is the student performance soo low?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/12 12:35 PM

If facts make your brain explode, please stop reading now. Diane Ravitch was appointed to public office by Presidents George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton. Secretary of Education Richard Riley appointed her to serve as a member of the National Assessment Governing Board, which supervises the National Assessment of Educational Progress; she was a member of NAGB from 1997 to 2004.

Stop the Lies about U.S. Education
July 24, 2012 //
1
I get so tired of reading about the “decline” and “failure” of American education.

It is not true.

A reader wrote the other day to say that NAEP scores in reading have been flat since 1971. She read it somewhere.

I went to the NAEP reports, the ones produced by the federal government, and here are the facts about NAEP reading.

Share them:

On the long-term trend NAEP, which goes from 1971-2008
:
White students age 17 gained 4 points from 1971-2008
Black students age 17 gained 28 points from 1971-2008
Hispanic students age 17 gained 17 points from 1971-2008

2008 is last date that long-term NAEP was given.

There is also Main NAEP, which has been given since 1992.

Only given to 4th and 8th grade, not to 17-year olds.
Improvement for all groups in this 20 year period, from 1992-2011.
Whites in 4th grade: % below basic dropped from 29% to 22%
Blacks in 4th grade: % below basic dropped from 68% to 51%
Hispanics: 4th grade: % below basic dropped from 62% to 49%.

Don’t believe everything you read. I am quoting from government documents.



The gains on NAEP reading are incremental but significant.

The gains on NAEP math are dramatic.

Reading changes more slowly than math, because math is taught in school, and reading reflects both home and school.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/12 01:25 PM

Why? Because we can.

Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/12 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Why? Because we can.


Ha! Exactly!
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/12 01:48 PM

Funny, but in another thread, conservatives are saying that people become successful 100% on their own, but when they aren't successful, it's the gummint school teacher's fault!
Ohhhh...the hypocrisy.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/25/12 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats



do you see your dentist for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week for 8 months per years?

thanks for yet another excuse...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/25/12 08:02 AM

Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse


thought that the teachers posting here said they pay all the money into their pensions....hummmm



she also stated on capital tonight that when the money is not there then a control board will step in and the unions will have to open the contracts and major cuts will be made




Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/25/12 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats

I know someone who will get 60% of their final average salary at age 59 1/2 AND be able to continue to work while receiving their pension. This is in addition to the company MATCH of 401(k) contributions. This is a private sector company.



and where is the long list of companies that offer those benefits?

appears the pensions/healthcare coverage for the teachers will be cut when the control boards step in and make severe cuts when the contracts have to be opened up

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/26/12 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
An Alternative to Capitalism


Yes, There Is an Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way

In May 2012, I had occasion to visit the city of Arrasate-Mondragon, in the Basque region of Spain. It is the headquarters of the Mondragon Corporation (MC), a stunningly successful alternative to the capitalist organization of production.


and how well do their schools perform?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/23/12 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Public pensions are not the story.


Control board among options for municipalities, Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli says
State could appoint panels to assist troubled areas
8:59 PM, Aug 7, 2012 |

ALBANY — State comptroller Thomas DiNapoli said Tuesday that creating a super control board for struggling municipalities is under consideration. But he said his office is reviewing a number of options to help local governments.
“We’ve been looking at the various models,” DiNapoli said an Albany news conference to discuss a Troy corruption case.
DiNapoli said a control board for the entire state might be a way to help provide a uniformed response to growing financial troubles for local governments.
A state-appointed control board would oversee a local government’s books, be able to issue debt and have the ability to reopen labor contracts. Nassau County and Buffalo are under control boards, and places like Suffolk and Rockland counties are feared to be headed in a similar direction because of growing deficits.
“We’re going to see if there might be some recommendations that we would make should there be a move to having additional oversight, including control boards, down the road,” DiNapoli said. “We’re evaluating what some of the options may be.”
Raising property taxes isn’t the answer, Richards said. The city would raise about $3.2 million in revenue if it increased taxes by 2 percent. At the same time, its pension bill went up $17 million this year, he said.
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/23/12 11:03 AM

Did I miss something? Your post concludes with
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Raising property taxes isn’t the answer, Richards said. The city would raise about $3.2 million in revenue if it increased taxes by 2 percent. At the same time, its pension bill went up $17 million this year, he said.
Who is Richards? He's not mentioned in the clip you provided. And what city is he talking about? Troy? Buffalo?
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/23/12 04:07 PM

Bluezone, I feel like your frustration with the public sector workers is well meaning but misplaced. You constantly attack the rank and file members as the ones who are to blame. In reality its the bloated top heavy administrations that have the highest pension costs. I don't know if you noticed but most teachers don't make squat. If you had your way with all those cuts they would be stuck living under a tarp and eating cat food.
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/23/12 04:11 PM

Public sector employee salaries and pensions are public knowledge. Look it up.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/23/12 08:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Originally Posted By: bluezone

show us the numbers

what is the earliest age that tier 1-5 retire at?
what is percentage they contribute per year out of their salary?
how many years do they have to contribute?
do they receive 60% of their final salary for their pension?



The age is roughly 63-65 not 55. Unless you are a Correctional officer then it is 25 years of service. Or a trooper which is 20 years of service.

The question is what is the earliest tier 1-5 can retire at?

The percentage is 3-6 percent dependeing on salary. the more you make the more you give in. tiers 1-4 contribute until the employee is vested at 10 years. tiers 5 and 6 are vested after 10 years bu must contibute for the duration of employment.

percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.


tell us how much the average tier 5/6 teacher would contribute?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/27/12 10:29 AM

Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/27/12 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I don't know if you noticed but most teachers don't make squat.


they make far more than others for only having a part time job with full pensions/healthcare

list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/27/12 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
What's this? An update on the kids game Simon Says?

Bluezone says do this! ahahahahahahaa!

BZ, why don't you try to get a job as a teacher, teacher's aide, heck even a food service worker in a school cafeteria, if anyone would hire you.
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/27/12 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
What's this? An update on the kids game Simon Says?

Bluezone says do this! ahahahahahahaa!

BZ, why don't you try to get a job as a teacher, teacher's aide, heck even a food service worker in a school cafeteria, if anyone would hire you.
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/27/12 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Originally Posted By: bluezone
list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
What's this? An update on the kids game Simon Says?

Bluezone says do this! ahahahahahahaa!

BZ, why don't you try to get a job as a teacher, teacher's aide, heck even a food service worker in a school cafeteria, if anyone would hire you.


Bluenoze list all of the jobs that you have had. List only jobs with a paycheck. Do you have a retirement plan? Give us some details, please.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/28/12 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Originally Posted By: bluezone
list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
What's this? An update on the kids game Simon Says?



if many employers offered the pay and benefits then you would list them

the teachers are the only few that see these pay and benefits
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/28/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Where did this number come from?


Originally Posted By: twocats

I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


is it no wonder the teachers do not want a 401k style plan where they have to contribute much more of their own pay to see the overly generous retirement pay that they see now


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
$42,000 per year
Originally Posted By: twocats
No Geneva teachers make enough to get that much in retirement.

Originally Posted By: twocats
So it's not FULL nor completely. It's fantastic


the article below states $42,000

Quote:
The new pension tier Cuomo outlined this week achieves two unlikely accomplishments: It creates large savings for public employers, yet remains generous to future employees.
The plan would offer a choice between a traditional pension and a 401(k)-style program, but only for future hires. Public employees in this state stay in the pension tier in place on the day they're hired.
Those who opt for the defined benefit in this new Tier 6 would get pensions 16 percent smaller than in the current system. For example, a worker in Tier 5 for 30 years who has a final salary of $70,000 gets a pension of $42,000 per year . In Tier 6, it would be $35,000, and unlike now, overtime and bonuses would not be used in setting the pension.
Tier 6 participants wouldn't be eligible for retirement at 62, as in Tier 5, but would have to be 65. And they'd have to kick in more; the current employee contribution is 3 percent, but Tier 6 employees would pay 4, 5 or 6 percent of their pay, with the highest-earning employees paying the most. The contribution level could also go up and down -- just as the pension bill does for counties and towns -- as the investment return of the pension fund soars or sinks.
New employees who opt for the 401(k)-type plan would get an automatic employer contribution of 4 percent of their pay, and as much as 3 percent more as a match if they contribute that much themselves. Their plans would also be portable, and vest after one year. Currently, pensions vest in 10.
Over 30 years, Tier 6 would reduce retirement costs by 50 percent, saving New York City $30 billion and public employers outside the city $83 billion. It would also allow prudent workers to enjoy comfortable retirements, though those who opt for the 401(k) would be wise to kick in at least the 3 percent their employers will match, just as they would into the traditional pension.
Experience has shown that people often mismanage their 401(k)s. But the frenzied opposition by union leaders is a huge public relations error. Tier 6 will offer public employees, via the pension or the 401(k), a far more generous retirement than most private sector workers footing most of the bill look forward to.
Many private-sector workers -- with little job security, no pension and either no 401(k) or a smaller employer contribution than this plan provides -- are weary of hearing about the "rights" of public workers. People are losing their houses because they can't pay the sky-high taxes that support the benefits of public workers. The tide has turned.

Tier 6 is a step toward bringing public retirement plans in line with the real world, and via the 401(k) portion, setting the state on a path to a retirement plan with predictable obligations. It may turn out be too generous -- and unions may view it more fondly when they're fighting Tier 7.


Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/28/12 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Originally Posted By: bluezone
list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
What's this? An update on the kids game Simon Says?

Bluezone says do this! ahahahahahahaa!

BZ, why don't you try to get a job as a teacher, teacher's aide, heck even a food service worker in a school cafeteria, if anyone would hire you.


Bluenoze list all of the jobs that you have had. List only jobs with a paycheck. Do you have a retirement plan? Give us some details, please.


When will you post your list of jobs? Do you have a 401K?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/29/12 07:53 AM


330,000 x $50,000 = $16,500,000,000 per year taxpayers pay for teachers pensions


now add on what the taxpayers pay for the teachers healthcare per year

wonder why your school taxes are soooooo high?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/29/12 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Originally Posted By: bluezone
list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare
What's this? An update on the kids game Simon Says?

Bluezone says do this! ahahahahahahaa!

BZ, why don't you try to get a job as a teacher, teacher's aide, heck even a food service worker in a school cafeteria, if anyone would hire you.




Bluenoze list all of the jobs that you have had. List only jobs with a paycheck. Do you have a retirement plan? Give us some details, please.


When will you post your list of jobs? Do you have a 401K?


Are you ducking the question about your job?
Are you ducking the question about your retirement?
Are you even a taxpayer?
Thanks for proving my point yet again.
Posted by: I did it!

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/29/12 05:38 PM

I don`t know but this poster knows all about Indians
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/01/12 11:05 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Medicare and Social Security

Moving on to the specific plan to turn Medicare into a voucher, the plan was tested by the recently released Washington Post/Kaiser poll. Respondents were given two choices: A) Medicare should continue as it is today, with the government guaranteeing all seniors the same set of health insurance benefits, or B) Medicare should be changed to a system in which the government guarantees each senior a fixed amount of money to help them purchase coverage either from traditional Medicare or from a list of private health plans. The public favored choice A, keeping Medicare the way it is today, by a strong 58-36 margin.




just give every worker an employer fully paid pension and fully paid healthcare

fart in the wind says it costs the state nothing to fund the pensions and healthcare of the workers
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/03/12 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Are you even a taxpayer?


must be you agree with the numbers I posted
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/04/12 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone[/quote


fart in the wind says it costs the state nothing to fund the pensions and healthcare of the workers


Teller of untruths your pants have combusted.
_________________________________________________
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. Mark Twain
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/05/12 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


tell us which is fact and which is fiction?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/05/12 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


tell us which is fact and which is fiction?


Ok investment and teacher contributions was 89.9 per cent for 2012. I found it in the article you posted RE privatization. Did you read the article?
Sorry I was exaggerating when I said 90 percent.

Why teacher pension costs will keep rising
Thursday July 5, 2012 3:21 PM By E.J. McMahon

Quote:
And this, in a nutshell, is why school districts pension costs have risen so much to 11.1 percent in 2012.

Do your work sheet 100 - 11.1 = 89.1 for 2012
And 10 years earlier it was almost entirerly from investment and teacher contributions.

I agree teachers need to increase their contribution, especially in these tough times.
Keep looking for new teacher contracts as they are being negotiated and accepted. More and more are taking pay freezes or a cost neutral deal. Only 1 to 2 percent salary increases but reduction of other stipends or days worked that are not part of the regular 185 days. Also, you will see teachers paying more into health care and reductions or eliminations in other areas, for example teacher cuts and not replacing retirees.
.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/06/12 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Ok investment and teacher contributions was 89.9 per cent for 2012.


so tell us the percentange of salary the teacher contributes per year?

by 'investment' do you mean taxpayer contribution?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/06/12 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

I agree teachers need to increase their contribution, especially in these tough times.
Keep looking for new teacher contracts as they are being negotiated and accepted. More and more are taking pay freezes or a cost neutral deal. Only 1 to 2 percent salary increases but reduction of other stipends or days worked that are not part of the regular 185 days. Also, you will see teachers paying more into health care and reductions or eliminations in other areas, for example teacher cuts and not replacing retirees.
.


did the union not tell cuomo they would walk off the job if he changed the pension tier or convert to a 401k?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/06/12 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Ok investment and teacher contributions was 89.9 per cent for 2012.


Quote:
so tell us the percentange of salary the teacher contributes per year?

3 per cent for 10 years for tier 4 and 5.

Quote:
by 'investment' do you mean taxpayer contribution?

No, I do not. Do you have any money in investments?

11.1 percent is a far different number than the
Quote:
99.9 per cent is payed by taxpayers
that you continue to lie about and virtually 0 taxpayer input throughout the 90s up through 2002.
My IQ is starting to drop again after reading and responding to your posts. So until you have something relevant to share, see ya.

Here is a friendly tip re most of the articles you post. When you see words like projected, according to our calculations, maybe, based on todays, it seems; that they are the words that pseudojournalist like to use illicit a stong emotion from the reader. You see it in the articles I quote also. Be discerning, be skeptical, question authority.
Got to go, Michael Savage is on WGVA.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/06/12 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
3 per cent for 10 years for tier 4 and 5.


that would mean that the teacher would put in about $15,000 for the first ten years

how does $15,000 grow to $1.3 million for their retirement?
what is the return rate per year?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/08/12 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
you continue to lie about and virtually 0 taxpayer input throughout the 90s up through 2002.


and who has been covering the shortages from 2002 to 2012?
Posted by: PO'ed Moderate

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/09/12 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

330,000 x $50,000 = $16,500,000,000 per year taxpayers pay for teachers pensions



Just curious, did I miss the link to where you got the $50,000 per year for teacher pension that taxpayers pay?

A teacher may get $50,000 per year after they retire (not even sure about that) but most of that money is from the teachers paying in and the investments made with that money. The NYSTR system has always been on of the best run retirement systems in the nation.
Posted by: PO'ed Moderate

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/09/12 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I don't know if you noticed but most teachers don't make squat.


they make far more than others for only having a part time job with full pensions/healthcare

list all the local companies that offer full pensions and healthcare




List all the companies that require that their employees have Master's Degrees. One of the reasons doctors deserve what they make is because they need to be so educated. Don't teachers deserve a similar kind of respect?

If you want to pay teachers less and remove benefits, what would the incentive be for any one that has skills in math or science to go into teaching instead of becoming engineers (where the US has millions of engineering jobs that are either empty or are filled by foreigners coming to America.)
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/09/12 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
Originally Posted By: bluezone

330,000 x $50,000 = $16,500,000,000 per year taxpayers pay for teachers pensions



Just curious, did I miss the link to where you got the $50,000 per year for teacher pension that taxpayers pay?

A teacher may get $50,000 per year after they retire (not even sure about that) but most of that money is from the teachers paying in and the investments made with that money. The NYSTR system has always been on of the best run retirement systems in the nation.


As of 2010, the average annual pension for NYSTRS retirees is $37,000. The Upstate New York average is probably lower.
Posted by: PO'ed Moderate

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/09/12 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
Originally Posted By: bluezone

330,000 x $50,000 = $16,500,000,000 per year taxpayers pay for teachers pensions



Just curious, did I miss the link to where you got the $50,000 per year for teacher pension that taxpayers pay?

A teacher may get $50,000 per year after they retire (not even sure about that) but most of that money is from the teachers paying in and the investments made with that money. The NYSTR system has always been on of the best run retirement systems in the nation.


As of 2010, the average annual pension for NYSTRS retirees is $37,000. The Upstate New York average is probably lower.


I love when people just make up numbers. Mr. bluezone must live by Rep. Kyl's "not intended to be a factual statement" philosophy of debate.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/10/12 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
A teacher may get $50,000 per year after they retire (not even sure about that) but most of that money is from the teachers paying in and the investments made with that money.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
so tell us the percentange of salary the teacher contributes per year?

3 per cent for 10 years for tier 4 and 5.


3% for ten years is about $15,000 that the teacher would pay in

so tell us how $15,000 turns into 1.3+ million for the teachers retirement?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/10/12 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
One of the reasons doctors deserve what they make is because they need to be so educated. Don't teachers deserve a similar kind of respect?



do taxpayers pay for the doctors degree
do taxpayers pay for the doctors retirement?
do taxpayers pay for the doctos healthcare?
do doctors work 180 days out of the year?
do doctors work 7 hours a day and only 5 days a week?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/10/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
As of 2010, the average annual pension for NYSTRS retirees is $37,000. The Upstate New York average is probably lower.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
so tell us the percentange of salary the teacher contributes per year?

3 per cent for 10 years for tier 4 and 5.



the teacher only pays in 3% for tens years or about $15,000

using your numbers of $37,000

$37,000 x 25 = $925,000

so tell us how the teacher only pays in $15,000 but GETS OUT $925,000 for retirement

no wonder the school taxes are soooo high

now factor in what the taxpayers pay for the teachers healthcare that the teacher also pays zero or very little into




Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/10/12 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
I love when people just make up numbers.


odd that the numbers came from teacher supporters...
must be the teacher supporters are wrong
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/10/12 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
most of that money is from the teachers paying in and the investments made with that money.


is that why the union said they would strike if cuomo converted to a 401 system?

make sure you vote YES when cuomo wants to convert to a 401k system

by your statement the teachers already pay all the money into their retirement
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/10/12 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
As of 2010, the average annual pension for NYSTRS retirees is $37,000. The Upstate New York average is probably lower.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
so tell us the percentange of salary the teacher contributes per year?

3 per cent for 10 years for tier 4 and 5.



the teacher only pays in 3% for tens years or about $15,000

using your numbers of $37,000

$37,000 x 25 = $925,000

so tell us how the teacher only pays in $15,000 but GETS OUT $925,000 for retirement

no wonder the school taxes are soooo high

now factor in what the taxpayers pay for the teachers healthcare that the teacher also pays zero or very little into



Po'ed have you checked the numbers?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/11/12 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
so tell us how the teacher only pays in $15,000 but GETS OUT $925,000 for retirement



Po'ed have you checked the numbers?

even madoff did not get that amount of return year after year


time to convert to a 401k for all NYS teachers...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/12 01:45 PM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
As of 2010, the average annual pension for NYSTRS retirees is $37,000. The Upstate New York average is probably lower.


look at the situation in chicago as NYS will see the same problems with the teachers pensions and full healthcare

the taxpayers can not afford to pay those overgenerous amounts
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/12 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
As of 2010, the average annual pension for NYSTRS retirees is $37,000. The Upstate New York average is probably lower.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
so tell us the percentange of salary the teacher contributes per year?

3 per cent for 10 years for tier 4 and 5.


the teacher only pays in 3% for tens years or about $15,000

using your numbers of $37,000

$37,000 x 25 = $925,000

so tell us how the teacher only pays in $15,000 but GETS OUT $925,000 for retirement

no wonder the school taxes are soooo high

now factor in what the taxpayers pay for the teachers healthcare that the teacher also pays zero or very little into


Worksheet # 1. How much will my investment be worth?

Interest per period 8.00
Number of periods 30
Initial value* $15,000.00
Total payments $15,030.00
Total interest $136,023.14
Total value $151,053.14

the teacher would only see $151,053 return over 30 years with their $15,000 contribution

so tell us Po'ed who makes up the other $775,000?
would it be taxpayers?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/12 06:15 PM

Worksheet # 1. How much will my investment be worth?

Interest 8.00
Number of periods 55
Amount of each investment $12,000.00
Total payments $660,000.00
Total interest $9,527,078.42
Total value of investment $10,187,078.42


Po'ed would you like to tell us what the $10 million represents ?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/13/12 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Look at what 8 years of Bush did.



and who paid into your pension when the stock market went down?
could it be taxpayers?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/15/12 06:53 AM

Worksheet # 1. How much will my investment be worth?

Interest 8.00
Number of periods 55
Amount of each investment $12,000.00
Total payments $660,000.00
Total interest $9,527,078.42
Total value of investment $10,187,078.42


Po'ed would you like to tell us what the $10 million represents ?


$10 million dollars to pay for one teachers healthcare costs for their career/retirement

that number is actually low as that does not represent a family plan

$10 million for one teachers healthcare costs and over $1 million for a teacher pension costs paid by taxpayers

wonder why your school taxes are soo high?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/27/12 06:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Public pensions are not the story.

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


better tell dinapoli

Quote:
Confidential » DiNapoli proposes fiscal early-warning system for New York schools


Quote:
1/3 of NY schools will be out of money in two years
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/29/12 10:33 AM

how about you explain what part F is as it relates to the teachers healthcare?

and where does the money come to pay for it all?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/12 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


have obama pass a law saying all employers will have to pay for their workers lifetime healthcare and pensions if your statement is accurate

obama could eliminate social security and medicare...
Posted by: Zealot

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/12 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
have obama pass a law saying all employers will have to pay for their workers lifetime healthcare and pensions if your statement is accurate

obama could eliminate social security and medicare...


Love it! Maybe he has that planned for term 2?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/11/12 08:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


you may want to tell the US post office how to to this as they are running out of money

bet you would prefer to pay 10 cents for a stamp instead of 45 cents
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/11/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


did you see that the kodak retirees will see a drastic cut in their benefits?

better tell them how your plan works...

or is it that the taxpayers are funding ALL of YOUR pension and benefits?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/14/12 01:31 PM

Originally Posted By: PO'ed Moderate
I love when people just make up numbers.


is your copay for prescription drugs only $2?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/10/12 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


it appears that kodak completely cut their retired employees healthcare which was costing the company over $10 million a month

how much do taxpayers have to pay per month for the teachers full coverage healthcare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/10/12 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Pensions are safer and cost less in the long run.


who does it cost less for the teacher or the taxpayer?


Originally Posted By: twocats
Speaking of increasing the debt, lets not neglect facts.






Posted by: mikey

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/10/12 01:53 PM

Fart, have you seen investment portfolios lately? WOW..can't believe you said this
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/10/12 05:12 PM

for Mikey
this is from page 5 of this thread, post #1362646
Subsequently, post #1362798 was my last reply to the tail chaser and teller of untruths. Her posts are forever deleted when I log on to this forum.



Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


tell us which is fact and which is fiction?


Ok investment and teacher contributions was 89.9 per cent for 2012. I found it in the article you posted RE privatization. Did you read the article?
Sorry I was exaggerating when I said 90 percent.

Why teacher pension costs will keep rising
Thursday July 5, 2012 3:21 PM By E.J. McMahon

Quote:
And this, in a nutshell, is why school districts pension costs have risen so much to 11.1 percent in 2012.

Do your work sheet 100 - 11.1 = 89.1 for 2012
And 10 years earlier it was almost entirely from investment and teacher contributions.

I agree teachers need to increase their contribution, especially in these tough times.
Keep looking for new teacher contracts as they are being negotiated and accepted. More and more are taking pay freezes or a cost neutral deal. Only 1 to 2 percent salary increases but reduction of other stipends or days worked that are not part of the regular 185 days. Also, you will see teachers paying more into health care and reductions or eliminations in other areas, for example teacher cuts and not replacing retirees.
.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/12/12 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Subsequently


so tell us the percentage that a teacher contributions per year of their salary to their pension?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/12/12 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
for
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind


why will the teachers union be bringing a lawsuit for the tax cap?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/18/12 01:51 PM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 02:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Deflection... the oldest game in the book


tc - so tell us who pays for your pension?
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Deflection... the oldest game in the book


tc - so tell us who pays for your pension?
\:\/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Subsequently


so tell us the percentage that a teacher contributions per year of their salary to their pension?



Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


and the taxpayers paid the rest....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Pensions are safer and cost less in the long run.


Teacher pension contribution to jump again
Posted November 16th, 2012
The New York State Teachers’ Retirement System last week notified public school administrators to expected another significant increase in pension costs next year, according to a memorandum obtained this week by The Observer.
To fund teacher pensions in New York, public school systems are required by law to contribute a percentage of payrolls to the state Teacher Retirement System (TRS). The Employer Contribution Rate (ECR) has skyrocketed over the past three years to 6.19% in 2009-2010, 8.62% in 2010-211, 11.11% in 2011-2012 and 11.84% this school years, money due to be paid in September, October and November 2013.
An October 25 memo from the TRS to school officials says, “Based on preliminary estimates, we anticipate the ECR for the next year to be between 15.5% and 16.5% of member payroll. This rate will apply to the fiscal year 2013-2014 TRS member salaries and will be collected in the fall of 2014.”
The TRS anticipates that there will be future increases in the TRC contribution rate, the amount of which has not yet been projected. “The magnitude of the increase will depend upon future investment performance and member demographics,” says the memo. “While our primary goal is to ensure the plan is properly funded, we recognize this rate has a significant impact on school district budgets. Our notices are sent as early as possible for planning and budgeting purposes.”



but we thought 'fart in the wind' said the taxpayers do not pay any money into the teachers pensions...
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:40 PM

You still crying? Try Desitin for that diaper rash. Waaaaa!

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:45 PM

looks like they will need to cut teachers to cover the steep rise in pension and benefit costs for teachers


do you have any other 'skills'?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:46 PM

Waaaaaaa!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
Pensions are safer and cost less in the long run.


Teacher pension contribution to jump again
The Employer Contribution Rate (ECR) has skyrocketed over the past three years to 6.19% in 2009-2010, 8.62% in 2010-211, 11.11% in 2011-2012 and 11.84% this school years, money due to be paid in September, October and November 2013.


add that to the 17% increase that taxpayers had to pay this year for the healthcare increase for the teachers
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:52 PM

Quote:
The New York State Teachers’ Retirement System last week



Originally Posted By: twocats
Waaaaaaa!



do you disagree with your own report?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:54 PM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 06:57 PM


Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


boy you have it tough
wonder what walmart gives for a pension?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: tubby
Really there are no true pensions and paid medical any where except government or taxpayer funded jobs.



ITT--Sorry, it's the only one I know. I don't routinely ask friends and family members about their salary and/or pensions.

pension of 1 3/4% per year of employment PLUS matching 401k above 10%.

Just saying that pensions DO exist.


and where is that long list of private employers that offer a full pension?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/26/12 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats


cranky from your thanksgiving paid 'vacation'?

Originally Posted By: twocats
We are 10 month employees.


some people have to work the full 12 months even on holidays...
Posted by: mikey

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/27/12 05:14 AM

You are rather ignorant for an educated person. A pension, in every case I know of,is 100% funded by the employer. A 401K or 403B account gives the employee an option for other savings.

And to answer with stupidity of remarks like "waaaa" scream that you can't do the simple math that will eventually become the destruction of the money grab by the state pension robbery of the tax payer. All pensions invest the money. the big difference is that with NYS pension our state and our ability to own homes and property will eventually be ruined to fund an otherwise unsustainable position.

When that happens we're all screwed, including you. Reform sis in order.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/27/12 09:32 AM

Listen Mickey, read the whole thread before you jump in and accuse me of being ignorant. Bz makes up numbers as he goes along, tells lies, and stalks me. That is why I respond to him with non-answers, when I bother to respond at all to his hundreds and hundreds of questions to me. I, and others, have tried to have a real discussion about this issue with him and we have all given up because he pulls numbers out of his a--.

Next time, stay out of it or start an intelligent debate that doesn't involve fabrications or defense of make believe bull excrement.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/27/12 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Listen Mickey, read the whole thread before you jump in and accuse me of being ignorant. Bz makes up numbers as he goes along, tells lies, and stalks me. That is why I respond to him with non-answers, when I bother to respond at all to his hundreds and hundreds of questions to me. I, and others, have tried to have a real discussion about this issue with him and we have all given up because he pulls numbers out of his a--.

Next time, stay out of it or start an intelligent debate that doesn't involve fabrications or defense of make believe bull excrement.
He/She isn't stalking you.
Posted by: mikey

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/27/12 05:11 PM

I was simply responding to pension vs 403B or 401K and that we can't support the state pension...especially in Seneca county.

Nothing more nothing less.

To dispute this is to DENY facts.

Don't know a thing about BZ posts...just know the give away has to stop or can't start so early in life.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/27/12 09:38 PM

The state has begun pension reform. Contributions and retirement age have increased. Also, see this, from March:


Most teachers support 401(k) choice
By ERIK KRISS
From Bureau Chief
Last Updated: 6:58 AM, March 14, 2012
Posted: 6:57 AM, March 14, 2012
ALBANY – More than seven of every 10 teachers support giving new colleagues the choice between a 401(k)-style retirement plan and a traditional pension - but most also oppose cutting traditional pension plan benefits for future teachers, a new poll has found.

Gov. Cuomo is pushing state lawmakers to scale back traditional "defined benefit" pensions for all new public employees while offering each future government worker a 401(k)-style "defined contribution" plan as an alternative - though Capitol insiders indicate the 401(k) element will likely be dropped as part of a broader pension reform deal.

The conservative Empire Center for New York State Policy, which strongly backs the 401(k) choice, commissioned the March 5-11 McLaughlin & Associates survey of 500 New York public school teachers - whose unions vehemently oppose the entire Cuomo "pension Tier VI" proposal.

In a break with recent polls of New York voters, McLaughlin found Cuomo with a 52-32 percent unfavorable rating among teachers - who by 2-to-1 also rated Mayor Bloomberg unfavorably. Cuomo has taken on teacher unions and proclaimed himself "the students' lobbyist."

The poll found 52 percent of teachers opposed raising required pension contributions by new colleagues, 63 percent were against an increase in the 10-year pension vesting period for future teachers and nearly 78 percent turned thumbs down to an increase in the retirement age for yet-to-be-hired teachers. All are key elements of the Cuomo plan.

While nearly 69 percent of teachers described public pensions as a “problem,” two-thirds said they thought the current system was sustainable.

On the 401(k) choice, 70 percent said they would have at least considered a 401(k)-style plan if it had been an opition when they were hired, 26 percent said they would have chosen such a plan and 57 percent supported a “hybrid” retirement plan combining a smaller defined benefits pension with defined contribution accounts.

“Teachers who like their unions also like the kind of retirement plan choice the governor wants to give them,” said Empire Center director Tim Hoefer, who noted the poll showed support for a defined-contribution option even among teachers who had favorable opinions of their unions.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/most_teachers_support_choice_EHeHNBXYtV0vxxWtQx8IHK
Posted by: mikey

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/28/12 06:00 AM

twocats..slippery slope for teachers but a necessary step to clear some of the future debt we can't pay where everyone loses. 401K equals self managed dollars into the stock and bond market. Most of us haven't done so well since the economy turned. The public pension hasn't done well either, but the outcome does not, at this time, affect the dollars coming to retirees.

Let's face it....if we all had access to the bloated pension fund payout there would only be a few voices of reason in place to NOT support the continued payments. People are selfish by nature.

The larger concern with Tier VI is it does nothing to curb the payouts in place until the new generation of teachers retires. We have to find a way to lower the payouts now or we won't be around to pay teachers anything in 25 years...and they DO deserve some security in retirement...but as it stands today astronomical retirement wages can be had at quite an early age.

I have no idea how to fix this other than to gut the current state of affairs, and that is a political nuclear bomb.

I see us all as losers in the end without immediate reform of some kind. Our tax base is dwindling as are the real wages of most NYer's. Something has to give. The big question is how? And the big elephant in the room is that it has to happen now.

If the politics and lobbying were out of the equation, I wonder what hypothetical solution would be offered and considered?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/29/12 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Listen Mickey, read the whole thread before you jump in and accuse me of being ignorant. Bz makes up numbers as he goes along


Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


how can I make up numbers when you provide the numbers?

10 years of 3% contributions by you amounts to about $15,000 total

that would only cover about 4 months of your pension pay out when you retire

you retire at 55 and you could have another 30 years of collecting about $45,000 per year for your pension

you take 30 years and subtract the 4 months (your contributions) which means the taxpayers pay for 29 years and 8 months of your pension

simple math
30 (years of retirement) x $45,000 (per year pension) = $1,350,000

$1,350,000 - $15000 (your 'contribution') = $1,335,000 of taxpayer money

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/29/12 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
stalks me.


you were warned about making false comments before
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/29/12 08:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
He/She isn't stalking you.


did you read about the individual that won $700,000 against another person for repeatedly posting false statments even after being warned?


save a screen shot.... ;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/29/12 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: mikey
You are rather ignorant for an educated person. A pension, in every case I know of,is 100% funded by the employer.


the funding of the pensions in this case is by the taxpayer
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 11/29/12 09:07 PM

Quote:
Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/01/12 11:00 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
The poll found 52 percent of teachers opposed raising required pension contributions by new colleagues, 63 percent were against an increase in the 10-year pension vesting period for future teachers and nearly 78 percent turned thumbs down to an increase in the retirement age for yet-to-be-hired teachers. All are key elements of the Cuomo plan.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


if 'fart in the wind' statement is accurate then why the opposition from teachers if they are paying for 90% of their benefits?

unless his statment is incorrect

Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/01/12 02:37 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
stalks me.


you were warned about making false comments before


Pshaw... Puh-leeeeeze. I've never been warned for stalking, but we all remember your incidents with pt very clearly.

It's the Internet, fool, get over it.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/02/12 03:58 PM

By Author Unknown (if you know who wrote it, PLEASE let me know)

Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.





LET’S SEE….

That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 07:40 PM

Quote:
U.S. public pension plans face $1 trillion shortfall
Nationwide, all together, public pension plans are $1 trillion short ... "I don't think our children should have to pay for these high pensions that give us…CBS News·

Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
I've never been warned for stalking


and neither have I as your information is incorrect

Never been warned period.

Back to ignoring you, stalker.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 07:50 PM

Quote:


Control board among options for municipalities, Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli says
State could appoint panels to assist troubled areas
Aug 7, 2012 |

ALBANY — State comptroller Thomas DiNapoli said Tuesday that creating a super control board for struggling municipalities is under consideration. But he said his office is reviewing a number of options to help local governments.
“We’ve been looking at the various models,” DiNapoli said an Albany news conference to discuss a Troy corruption case.
DiNapoli said a control board for the entire state might be a way to help provide a uniformed response to growing financial troubles for local governments.
A state-appointed control board would oversee a local government’s books, be able to issue debt and have the ability to reopen labor contracts. Nassau County and Buffalo are under control boards, and places like Suffolk and Rockland counties are feared to be headed in a similar direction because of growing deficits.
“We’re going to see if there might be some recommendations that we would make should there be a move to having additional oversight, including control boards, down the road,” DiNapoli said. “We’re evaluating what some of the options may be.”
Raising property taxes isn’t the answer, Richards said. The city would raise about $3.2 million in revenue if it increased taxes by 2 percent. At the same time, its pension bill went up $17 million this year, he said.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 07:57 PM

Quote:


New York’s public pension plans are organized into benefit “tiers” based on hiring dates, as follows:

• Tier 1 benefits are available to all employees hired before June 30, 1973;
• Tier 2 covers all employees hired on or after June 30, 1973 and before July 27, 1976;
• Tier 3 covers employees hired on or after July 27, 1976, and before Sept. 1, 1983;
• Tier 4 includes all employees hired on or after Sept. 1, 1983, and before Jan. 1, 2010; and
• Tier 5 covers employees hired on or after Jan. 1, 2010.

current tier 4
retirement age 55
employee contribution 3% first 10 years

tier 5 retirement age 57
employee contribution 3% all years

original tier 4 retirement age 62
employee contribution 3% all years

Tier 5: A lost opportunity

On December 2, 2009, the New York State Legislature voted to create a fifth tier of slightly reduced pension benefits for state and local employees hired after Jan. 1, 2010. However, while benefits in the new plan are less expensive than those in pre-vious tiers, Tier 5 does not live up to the “significant pension reform” promised by Governor David Paterson when he originally proposed the law. As shown below, the Tier 5 changes for members of the New York State Employee Retirement System (ERS) restored most key elements of the original 1983 Tier 4 pension plan, before those benefits were repeatedly enhanced in the 1990s.

The most significant difference between Tier 5 and the original Tier 4 benefits for ERS members involves the use of overtime in computing final average salaries. Un-restricted in all previous plans, overtime for Tier 5 ERS members will now be subject to a $15,000 cap, “indexed” to grow at 3 percent a year.

Teachers outside New York City got a different Tier 5 deal: their minimum retire-ment age will be raised only two years, to 57. The employee contribution for Tier 5 members of the New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (NYSTRS) will be made permanent at a slightly higher rate of 3.5 percent.

Governor Paterson first introduced the Tier 5 bill in the spring of 2009, but he se-cured its passage only after making a series of costly concessions to labor unions in exchange for their agreement not to lobby against the pension changes:

• The state’s two largest unions, the Civil Service Employees Association (CSEA) and the Public Employees Federation (PEF) won an unprecedented no-layoff pledge from the governor. (Paterson later sought to renege on the deal by an-nouncing layoffs in late 2010—but no layoffs seemed likely to occur before he left office.)
New York State United Teachers (NYSUT) achieved its highest pension-related priority—a plan offering some teachers a chance to retire at age 55 after only 25 years of service. NYSUT also won the permanent enactment of a temporary law, annually renewed since 1994, that effectively allows its local chapters to veto any changes in retiree health benefits.


Posted by: Teonan

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats

Back to ignoring you, stalker.




Looks like you'll be back to stalking yourself on the 'kids names a-z' thread.

Boo hoo bluezone.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Back to ignoring you, stalker.


Quote:
Jury Awards $13 Million in Texas Defamation Suit Against - ABC News
abcnews.go.com/Business/jury-awards-13...defamation-suit.../story?id...
Apr 24, 2012 ... A Texas couple who filed a defamation lawsuit over three years ago ... Internet forum Topix.com won a $13.8 million judgment from a jury. ... "You can't post anonymous lies on the Internet without suffering the consequences." ...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:03 PM

your comments are illogical
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:05 PM

Quote:
• New York's Exploding Pension Costs - The Empire Center for New ...



... tax-funded annual contributions to the New York State Teachers ... inflation of future pension payments, and the permanent elimination of employee contributions for Tier …
http://www.empirecenter.org/Special-Reports/2010/12/pensionexplosion...




New York's Exploding Pension Costs
Complete report in PDF format
December 07, 2010
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Public pension costs in New York are mushrooming—just when taxpayers can least afford it. Over the next five years, tax-funded annual contributions to the New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (NYSTRS) will more than quadruple, while contributions to the New York State and Local Retirement System (NYSLRS) will more than double, according to estimates presented in this report. New York City’s budgeted pension costs, which already have increased tenfold in the past decade, will rise by at least 20 percent more in the next three years, according to the city’s financial plan projections.
NYSTRS and NYSLRS are “fully funded” by government actuarial standards, but we estimate they have combined funding shortfalls of $120 billion when their liabilities are measured using private-sector accounting rules. Based on a similar alternative standard, New York City’s pension funds had unfunded liabilities of $76 billion as of mid-2008—before their net asset values plunged in the wake of the financial crisis.

The run-up in pension costs threatens to divert scarce resources from essential public services during a time of extreme fiscal and economic stress for every level of government. New York needs to enact fundamental pension reform to permanently eliminate the risks and unpredictability inherent in the traditional pension system.

INTRODUCTION

In November 2003, the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research issued a report de-scribing New York State’s public pension system as “a ticking fiscal time bomb.”

The bomb is now exploding—and New Yorkers will be coping with the fallout for years to come.

New York’s state and local taxpayers support three public pension funds encompassing eight different retirement systems—five covering different groups of New York City employees, and three covering employees of the state, local governments, school districts and public authorities outside the city. Between 2007 and 2009, these funds lost a collective total of more than $109 billion, or 29 percent of their combined assets. Two of the three funds ended their 2010 fiscal years with asset values below fiscal 2000 levels; the third has barely grown in the past decade.

Meanwhile, the number of pension fund retirees and other beneficiaries has risen 20 percent and total pension benefit payments have doubled in the past 10 years. Tax-payers will now have to make up for the resulting pension fund shortfalls.

This report forecasts pension funding trends for the New York State and Local Re-tirement Systems (NYSLRS) and the New York State Teachers Retirement System (NYSTRS), which cover nearly every public employee outside New York City. It also summarizes official reports of funded status and projected costs over the next three years for the New York City Retirement Systems. Assuming the pension systems all hit their rate-of-return targets:

• Taxpayer contributions to NYSTRS could more than quadruple, rising from about $900 million as of 2010-11 to about $4.5 billion by 2015-16. The projected increase is equivalent to 18 percent of current school property tax levies.
• State and local employer contributions to NYSLRS will more than double over the next five years, adding nearly $4 billion to annual taxpayer costs even if most opt to convert a portion of their higher pension bills into IOUs that won’t be paid off until the 2020s.
• New York City’s budgeted pension contributions, which already have in-creased by more than 500 percent ($5.8 billion) in the last decade, are projected to increase at least 20 percent more, or $1.4 billion, in the next three years.

Pension costs would be even higher if New York’s state and local retirement funds were not calculating pension contributions based on permissive government accounting standards, which allow them to understate their true liabilities.

While New York’s two state pension systems officially are deemed “fully funded,” we estimate that NYSLRS is $71 billion short of what it will need to fund its pension obligations, and that NYSTRS has a funding shortfall of $49 billion, based on valuation standards applied to corporate pension funds.

The need for reform

The record-breaking investment returns of the 1980s and ‘90s lulled New York’s elected leaders into a false sense of complacency. State and local payrolls were expanded and retirement benefits were enhanced under the assumption that pension costs would remain near historic lows. The downturn of 2000-03 and its impact on pension costs should have come as a wake-up call to state officials. Instead, they responded with pension funding gimmicks and minimal “reforms.”

In the short run, assuming the state Constitution is interpreted as allowing no change in benefits for current workers, there is no financially responsible way to avoid the coming increases in pensions costs. However, state and local officials in New York can seek to contain the damage by reducing headcount where appropriate, and by exploring ways of saving money on employee compensation, including wage increases and health insurance benefits. A statewide public-sector salary freeze—which the Legislature has the power to impose, according to a legal analysis commissioned by the Empire Center1 —could help minimize the extent to which rising pension costs force service cutbacks, layoffs or tax hikes. But these will just be bandages covering a more fundamental problem.

The lesson is clear: the traditional pension system exposes taxpayers to intolerable levels of financial risk and volatility. New York’s existing defined-benefit (DB) public pension plans need to be closed to new members, once and for all. They should be replaced either by defined-contribution (DC) plans modeled on the 401(k) accounts that most private workers rely for their own retirement, or by “hybrid” plans, combining elements of DB and DC plans, that cap benefits and require employees to share in some of the financial risks of retirement planning.

This is not just a matter of financial necessity but of basic fairness to current and future taxpayers—the vast majority of whom will never receive anything approaching the costly, guaranteed benefits available to public employees.

1. PENSION FUNDING TRENDS


New York’s 1.3 million state and local government employees belong to defined-benefit (DB) pension plans, which guarantee a stream of post-retirement income based on peak average salaries and career duration. Pension (and disability) benefits are financed by large investment pools, which in turn are replenished by tax-funded employer contributions. Some public employees, depending on their hiring date and “tier” membership, also contribute a small share of their own salaries to pension funds (see Appendix).

While employee contributions (where required) are fixed or capped, contributions by employers fluctuate, based on actuarial assumptions. The rate of return on pension fund assets is the key determinant of pension costs to taxpayers. Since the mid-1980s, when pension funds began allocating more of their assets to stock investments, those rate of return assumptions have ranged from 7.5 percent to 8.75 percent; for most of the last 10 years, New York’s public pension plans have assumed their investments would yield an average annual return of 8 percent.





During the historic bull market of the 1980s and ‘90s, investment gains easily exceeded expectations, averaging in the double digits. The result, as shown in Figure 1: tax-funded employer contributions tumbled in the three state pension plans covering employees outside New York City. By 2000, employer contribution rates for members of these plans essentially had dropped to zero.2

Government workers shared in the market windfall. The state Legislature repeatedly increased pension benefits for targeted groups of employees during the 1990s. Those enhancements were topped off in 2000 by the state Legislature’s approval of cost-of-living adjustments in all public pensions, automatic partial indexing to inflation of future pension payments, and the permanent elimination of employee contributions for Tier 3 and 4 retirement system members who had been on the payroll for at least 10 years.3 Lawmakers essentially sold these changes to the public as a free lunch, assuming the stock market boom would continue indefinitely.

In fact, as elected officials should have recognized, the minimal employer contribution rates of 1990s were a historical anomaly. “Normal” contribution rates—assuming a hypothetical steady state of asset returns meeting investment targets—would have ranged from 11 to 12 percent for most non-uniformed state and local employees, including teachers, to nearly 20 percent for most police and firefighters in NYSLRS.

The decade that followed the enactment of the major pension sweeteners was characterized by extremely volatile—and ultimately stagnant—investment returns. Asset values dropped sharply between 2000 and 2002, recovered over the next five years, and then dropped sharply after 2007.

Despite the recent stock market recovery, the net assets of the New York City pension funds and the New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (NYSTRS) as of 2010 were still below 2000 levels, while the net assets of the New York State and Local Retirement System (NYSLRS) were up just 4 percent on the decade.* Meanwhile, total benefit payments doubled between 2000 and 2010. The year-by-year trends for the period are shown in Figure 2.





* NYSLERS includes both the State and Local Employee Retirement System and the Police and Fire Retirement System.

The combination of falling asset prices and rising benefit outlays meant the pension funds were developing huge shortfalls. Meanwhile, employee contributions into the state pension funds actually decreased during this period, as a growing number of Tier 3 and 4 members reached the 10-year seniority mark.4 Taxpayers were left to pick up the slack, as shown in Figure 3. In 2000, tax-funded employer contributions to New York’s pension funds totaled just under $1 billion. By 2010, they had risen to a combined $17.3 billion for the state and New York City systems.

But this was just the beginning of the pension explosion.





2. THE WRONG KIND OF “BOOM”

How hard will taxpayers be hit by New York’s coming pension explosion? To answer that question, we have projected employer contribution rates for NYSLRS and NYSTRS for each of the next five years. These projections are based on assumptions about future events, particularly the performance of fund assets, but also growth in employee headcount and salaries.

These projections represent our best effort to replicate the funds’ contribution rate calculations under the Aggregate Funding Method used by the pension system actuaries. Because the funds do not make public their expected streams of future cash flows, we must make assumptions about the path of changes in certain figures that form a part of those calculations, particularly the present value of the salaries that currently active employees are expected to earn. However, we believe that these projections represent a good estimate based on publicly available data, and can provide state and local governments with useful guidance about the path of pension costs in future years.

We projected contributions in three scenarios: “Base,” in which the pension systems hit their current investment targets (7.5 percent for NYSLRS, 8.0 percent for NYSTRS); “High Returns,” defined as 11 percent per year; and “Low Returns,” de-fined as 5 percent per year. We also estimated tax-funded contributions to NYSLRS over the next five years assuming that local employers opt to join the state in cap-ping pension contributions and amortizing excess amounts for a 10-year period.




Pension “mitigation”: Cap and owe

Under a new law backed by Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli and approved as part of the 2011-12 state budget,5 the state government’s fiscal 2010-11 pension contribution rates will be capped at “graded rates” of 9.5 percent for the ERS members and 17.5 percent for PFRS members, instead of the billed rates of 11.9 percent and 18.2 percent, respectively.

Starting in fiscal 2011-12, the contribution rates used to calculate the state’s pension bill will be allowed to increase by only one percentage point a year, starting at this year’s capped level. Billed contributions above that amount in any given year can be spread, or amortized, over 10 years, payable to the pension fund at a rate pegged to interest on taxable bonds, generally in the neighborhood of 5 percent. As part of the deal, the minimum contribution level is permanently fixed at 4 percent. Local governments have been given the option of joining this “rate mitigation program,” and many are already choosing to do so.

Delayed payments will be counted as liabilities on employer balance sheets, and as receivable “assets” of the pension fund. The comptroller has strongly taken issue with any suggestion that this program is tantamount to borrowing from the pension fund. Semantics aside, however, there is no denying that the cap on pension payments simply transfers liabilities into the future—well into the 2020s, at a minimum. Assuming all local government employers amortize a portion of what they will owe the pension fund, and assuming the funds’ asset returns hit their 7.5 percent target, we estimate a total of $11 billion in state and local pension payments will be deferred over the next five years—stretching these costs into the middle of the next decade.

In any event, even employers choosing to amortize will experience a doubling of ERS contributions and a near doubling in total PFRS contributions over the next five years. If asset returns are high enough to drive down rates quickly after a few years, those employers will continue paying higher rates for a longer period. School districts paying into the NYSTRS, which has no amortization option, will see their contributions quadruple even under our rosiest scenario for asset returns over the next five years.

The impact of the projected base rates on total contribution amounts is depicted in Figure 4. The $3.6 billion rise in teacher pension contributions (from about $900 mil-lion in 2010-11 to $4.5 billion in 2015-16) equates to 18 percent of 2010-11 school tax levies, or an average increase of nearly 3.5 percent a year. This is well above the annual property tax growth that would be allowed under a 2 percent tax cap proposed by Governor-elect Andrew Cuomo.



The Big Apple’s bomb

Virtually all New York City employees (and some employees of the city Transit Authority) belong to one of five different municipal pension systems. The systems have different funding and contribution levels while pooling their assets in a common city pension trust fund.

The financing of these pension plans is arcane and complex compared to those of NYSLRS and NYSTRS. Crucial pension fund financial data for the 2009 and 2010 fiscal years has not yet been published, and the city Office of Management and Budget (OMB) uses an opaque process to generate the city’s official pension cost estimates.

The city’s pension contribution averaged about $1.4 billion during the late 1990s and dipped as low as $615 million in 2000. By 2010, the contribution had risen to an all-time high of $6.6 billion—and it’s still climbing. OMB’s official financial plan estimates of pension obligations are depicted in Figure 5.




These figures, which show the pension contribution growing from $7 billion in 2011 to $8.4 billion in fiscal 2014, reflect changes made by OMB in its November budget modifications in anticipation of a forthcoming revision of actuarial assumptions. Given the steep losses sustained by city pension funds in 2007-2009 (as shown in Figure 2 on page 4) and the underfunded status of the pension plans even before the downturn, the pension contribution is likely to grow significantly after fiscal 2014.

Measuring pension fund assets and liabilities

Parties obligated to pay an amount at some future date need to know the size of that obligation in today’s dollars, which will tell them how much money to set aside. That sum can be smaller than the principal amount due because it can earn interest until the due date. If, for example, you owe $10,000 in ten years, and your savings account offers an interest rate of 3 percent, you would need to set aside only $7,441 today. In this example, you have assessed your future obligations using a 3 percent “discount rate”—the rate at which the principal due is discounted over a given period of time to produce the loan’s net present value.

The discount rate applied to future obligations is a crucial determinant of a pension system’s necessary funding levels: the lower the rate, the larger the contributions required to maintain “fully funded” status, meaning the assets are sufficient to cover all promised pension benefits.

Private pension plans must discount liabilities based on what’s known as a “market” rate—typically, the interest paid on bonds issued by financially solid corporations. This is often much lower than the plans’ projected returns, but it reflects what the money would be earning if invested in lower-risk assets, matching the low risk tolerance of future retirees who are counting on their promised pensions.

Public funds, however, are allowed to discount their long-term liabilities based on the targeted annual rate of return on their assets—i.e., what they hope to earn from investments in a basket of assets dominated by stocks, which offer a chance of higher returns in exchange for higher risk of losses.


Until recently, all of New York’s public pension funds had pegged their target rates at 8 percent, like most other public systems around the country. In 2010, Comptroller DiNapoli, acting as sole trustee of the New York State & Local Employee Retirement System, adopted new actuarial guidelines reducing the target rate for state pension funds to 7.5 percent, along with other changes in actuarial assumptions concerning career duration, salaries and life expectancy. These are all factored into the system’s employer contribution rates going forward. The New York State Teachers’ Retirement System (overseen by a separate board of trustees) and the New York City pension funds will also be considering changes to their rate of return assumptions in 2011.

While most public pension managers continue to resist the idea, many independent actuaries and financial economists agree that the net present value of risk-free public pension promises should be calculated on the basis of low-risk market interest rates. Using this approach, for example, Andrew Biggs of the American Enterprise Institute has estimated that state pensions across the country are underfunded by $3 trillion, or six times the officially reported under-funding estimates as of 2008.6 This estimate doesn't even take into account the impact of the 2008 market downturn on pension fund asset values.

Indeed, sharp drops in asset values cause pension plans' financial statements to become even more misleading. When a pension plan underperforms its targeted in-vestment returns, it does not recognize the loss immediately; instead, it “smooths" recognition of the loss over a period of years, usually five. This means that most pension plans will not have fully recognized the stock market declines of 2008 and 2009 until 2014. For example, while ERS held assets with a market value of $94 billion as of March 31, 2009, it reported an actuarial asset value of $126 billion on that date—and that $126 billion figure underpins the plan's claim that it is 101 percent funded.

In this report, we also present “market value” funding data for New York’s state and local pension funds, in addition to the more-commonly discussed actuarial funding basis. For the statewide pension funds, we calculated our market value funding calculations by using the most recent available data on market value of assets from the funds’ Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports. In the case of NYSLRS, the data are for March 31, 2009; for NYSTRS, the data are current as of June 30, 2009.7

We also adjusted the estimated pension liabilities to a “market value liability” calculation by using a discount rate based on high-quality corporate bonds, provided by Mercer Consulting as of September 2010. As is the standard practice for public sector pension funds, these funds’ actuarial liabilities are calculated by discounting future payments to a present value using discount rate equal to the funds’ expected rate of return: 7.5 percent for ERS and PFRS, and 8 percent for TRS. Our adjusted discount rate is approximately 5 percent, varying slightly depending on the funds’ mix of active and retired participants. This lower discount rate reflects the typical practice for private-sector pension plans, with a discount rate based on the risk experienced by pension beneficiaries.

For the New York City pension systems, market valuation measures are already included in official financial reports, so we simply reproduce those along with our estimates for the state funds, based on their latest published financial data, in Table 2. It should be noted that the city’s actuarial and market-based data in the table are for fiscal 2008, and do not reflect the fund’s losses in 2009.





As of their reporting dates in 2009 (March 31 for New York State ERS and PFRS, and June 30 for NYSTRS), each of the state systems reported an actuarial funding ratio of slightly more than 100 percent. But recalculating these figures on a market value basis shows a much worse funding situation: TRS was just 60 percent funded, PFRS 58 percent, and ERS 56 percent. The discrepancy has two sources: sharp stock market declines in late 2008 and early 2009 meant that the market value of these plans' assets was far below their actuarial value. And changing to a market value discount rate significantly increases the plans' measured liabilities.

Updated liability estimates

In the year following the last official actuarial reporting date, asset values rebounded somewhat. We estimate the New York State ERS and PFRS were 65 percent and 69 percent funded, respectively, using a market rate standard as of March 31, 2010. The market-rate unfunded liabilities for these two systems came to $71 billion, including $61.8 billion for ERS and $9.5 billion for PFRS, according to our calculations. NYSTRS was approximately 61 percent funded as of June 30, 2010, with a shortfall of $49.2 billion. Thus, the combined shortfall for the two systems came to $120 billion, while the official estimate of the shortfall in the city funds, measured on a market basis, came to $76 billion as of June 30, 2008.

Posted by: Teonan

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:08 PM


Stalking shadows now?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!


what about the schools that are on NYS watch list for 3 years in a row for underperforming?

cut the teachers pay and their benefits...


Here we go again...
Still OCD Bz?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Stalking shadows now?


I heard some scary stories about stalkers, local stalkers, at that.
Some people around here have even had to get Orders of Protection.

Scary stuff.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: Teonan

Stalking shadows now?


I heard some scary stories about stalkers, local stalkers, at that.
Some people around here have even had to get Orders of Protection.

Scary stuff.
You ain't kidding, I went back to sleeping with my rifle, with a 20 round mag.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:35 PM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
The percentage is 3-6 percent dependeing on salary. the more you make the more you give in. tiers 1-4 contribute until the employee is vested at 10 years. tiers 5 and 6 are vested after 10 years bu must contibute for the duration of employment.

percentage of final salary varies on what tier and union they are in. most get 50%-60%. Tier 1 may get more but tier 1 employees are few and far in-between.




60% of a teachers final salary for their pension
no wonder the school taxes are so high...


let them pay for their own retirement with a 401k
Posted by: Teonan

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

odd how a 'teacher' can post on here at all hours of the day and then blame all others for the students poor performance...


'teacher'?

Coy little way of suggesting tc is not an educator?

limp bluzone.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/03/12 09:58 PM

Quote:
Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse

Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/04/12 06:52 PM

I couldn't resist.

See ya next year.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/08/12 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Originally Posted By: twocats
The state has begun pension reform. Contributions and retirement age have increased. Also, see this, from March:


Most teachers support 401(k) choice
By ERIK KRISS
From Bureau Chief
Last Updated: 6:58 AM, March 14, 2012
Posted: 6:57 AM, March 14, 2012
ALBANY – More than seven of every 10 teachers support giving new colleagues the choice between a 401(k)-style retirement plan and a traditional pension - but most also oppose cutting traditional pension plan benefits for future teachers, a new poll has found.

Gov. Cuomo is pushing state lawmakers to scale back traditional "defined benefit" pensions for all new public employees while offering each future government worker a 401(k)-style "defined contribution" plan


Fart in the Wind why would there be a need to reform the 'teachers' pension plan if most of the money comes from the teachers as you claim?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/09/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Wrong again. Look at the South Seneca Romulus Merger study. The average for a teachers salary and benefits is less than $75,000. The other schools in the area are probaly not too much different.



why is there a merger study?

excessive 'teachers' pension and healthcare costs

if the merger goes forward why will the school be out of money by 2018?

excessive 'teachers' pension and healthcare costs

why are all schools in NYS facing money problems?

excessive 'teachers' pension and healthcare costs

why do 'teachers' pay 1/4 less for a family plan per month than others and yet get full coverage?

hum........


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/09/12 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By: mikey
The larger concern with Tier VI is it does nothing to curb the payouts in place until the new generation of teachers retires. We have to find a way to lower the payouts now or we won't be around to pay teachers anything in 25 years...and they DO deserve some security in retirement...but as it stands today astronomical retirement wages can be had at quite an early age.

I have no idea how to fix this other than to gut the current state of affairs, and that is a political nuclear bomb.


if the current 'teachers' refuse to convert to a 401k then do not give them any more raises, make them pay much more into their healthcare plan and eliminate the medicare F plan they get




Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/11/12 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


does that include healthcare and pension costs?

Originally Posted By: twocats
Gov. Cuomo is pushing state lawmakers to scale back traditional "defined benefit" pensions for all new public employees while offering each future government worker a 401(k)-style "defined contribution" plan



fart in the wind you better show cuomo how the teachers 'contribute' 90% of their benefits
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/12/12 05:58 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse




where are all the public sector union supporters on these issues....I notice they have little to say....I say over the summer of 2013 all public sector employees be eliminated(especially the teachers union), and force the unions to renegotiate, the taxpayers are paying enough....in the private sector when revenues decrease so does head count, if you wanna keep your head count then take concessions, that's what happens in the private sector....it's about time these public sector employees join the private sector people in the real world.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/12/12 06:08 AM


"where are all the public sector union supporters on these issues....I notice they have little to say....I say over the summer of 2013 all public sector employees be eliminated(especially the teachers union), and force the unions to renegotiate....in the private sector when revenues decrease so does head count, if you wanna keep your head count then take concessions....it's about time these public sector employees join the private sector people in the real world."

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/12/12 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
where are all the public sector union supporters on these issues....I notice they have little to say....


they are unable to dispute the facts

convert to a 401k retirement and have the employees pay a larger portion of their healthcare costs
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/13/12 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

"where are all the public sector union supporters on these issues....I notice they have little to say....I say over the summer of 2013 all public sector employees be eliminated(especially the teachers union), and force the unions to renegotiate....in the private sector when revenues decrease so does head count, if you wanna keep your head count then take concessions....it's about time these public sector employees join the private sector people in the real world."

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.




watch out Blue....Timmy's using his big words now!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/13/12 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


Quote:
Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today


must be the syracuse mayor is incorrect in her comments
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/13/12 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
watch out Blue....Timmy's using his big words now!


must be why many schools are looking at mergers....

timmy - name an employer that can pay their retired employee $1.3 million for retirement when the employee only puts in $15,000 in their retirement system?

timmy - name an employer that pays the employees full healthcare costs for life?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/13/12 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: Timbo

"where are all the public sector union supporters on these issues....I notice they have little to say....I say over the summer of 2013 all public sector employees be eliminated(especially the teachers union), and force the unions to renegotiate....in the private sector when revenues decrease so does head count, if you wanna keep your head count then take concessions....it's about time these public sector employees join the private sector people in the real world."

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.




watch out Blue....Timmy's using his big words now!


Not so big as you might think.

Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/14/12 07:21 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


Quote:
Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today


must be the syracuse mayor is incorrect in her comments



still waiting for Timmy's response to the comments by the Democratic Syracuse mayor.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/14/12 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


Quote:
Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today


must be the syracuse mayor is incorrect in her comments



still waiting for Timmy's response to the comments by the Democratic Syracuse mayor.


I believe I already responded to your question.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/14/12 06:49 PM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


Quote:
Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today


must be the syracuse mayor is incorrect in her comments



still waiting for Timmy's response to the comments by the Democratic Syracuse mayor.


timmy would also need to comment on the reason for cuomos tax cap and cuomos reason for reforming the pension system for teachers and wanting them convert to a 401k system

odd that the teachers refused that reform...

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/14/12 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


how much does the average teacher get for their entire pension?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/14/12 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Originally Posted By: twocats
The state has begun pension reform. Contributions and retirement age have increased. Also, see this, from March:


Most teachers support 401(k) choice
By ERIK KRISS
From Bureau Chief
Last Updated: 6:58 AM, March 14, 2012
Posted: 6:57 AM, March 14, 2012
ALBANY – More than seven of every 10 teachers support giving new colleagues the choice between a 401(k)-style retirement plan and a traditional pension - but most also oppose cutting traditional pension plan benefits for future teachers, a new poll has found.

Gov. Cuomo is pushing state lawmakers to scale back traditional "defined benefit" pensions for all new public employees while offering each future government worker a 401(k)-style "defined contribution" plan


seems twocats just proved that 'fart in the wind' comment to be incorrect


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/17/12 03:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe.


Quote:
Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today


must be the syracuse mayor is incorrect in her comments



still waiting for Timmy's response to the comments by the Democratic Syracuse mayor.


I believe I already responded to your question.


and what is the post number?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/17/12 04:41 PM


"and what is the post number?"


----------------------

"We prefer to actually debate rather than endure a pointless diatribe."

I have no interest in engaging in what appears to be largely a one-sided debate, especially in light of FAR, FAR greater criminal fiscal waste and corruption in the private sector. Educators are generally being scapegoated by those who are committing the true raiding of the US financial system.

It's like when your dog chews up your shoes and then says "look at what the cat did"!

I personally know far too many educators and know way too much about this issue to waste my time on these lies and hypocrisies.

Feel free to indulge yourself though.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/18/12 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
I personally know far too many educators and know way too much about this issue to waste my time on these lies and hypocrisies.


Quote:
Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today


then you better tell mayor miner how to solve the looming insolvency
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/18/12 09:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


then why are schools taxes in NYS so high and the students graduation rate is low?

where is all the money going if it is not used to pay overly generous teachers pensions?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/18/12 11:04 AM

What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?

Posted by: cwjga

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/18/12 11:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?



Actually a simple fix would be to go to an income tax to fund schools. That would be the fairest way. It won't happen because those with money on both sides are happy payying a tax (property) that is not representative of their ability to pay.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/18/12 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?



more fair to the taxpayers or the teachers?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/18/12 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: cwjga
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?



Actually a simple fix would be to go to an income tax to fund schools. That would be the fairest way. It won't happen because those with money on both sides are happy payying a tax (property) that is not representative of their ability to pay.


Oh, so you ARE in favor of a progressive tax?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/19/12 09:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Originally Posted By: DR. D

I probably should explain briefly our state aid is flat and is still based on 2008's figures. Now this is not just a Romulus issue but a statewide issue. EVERY district is expected to do more with less funds and untill NYS decides to rectify this all schools are going to be in trouble.


a control board will step in and open the contracts





Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/19/12 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?



have the teachers convert to a 401k and pay for their healthcare

school budgets would see a large drop in expenditures

paying a teacher $60,000 per year in retirement and paying their full healthcare at age 55 is illogical
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/19/12 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?




yes..........if salaries,pensions and benefits of the unions are also put on the table.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/19/12 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?




yes..........if salaries,pensions and benefits of the unions are also put on the table.


What does one have to do with the other? Besides, I was being facetious. It will NEVER happen.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/20/12 09:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?

yes..........if salaries,pensions and benefits of the unions are also put on the table.


What does one have to do with the other?


if you reduce salaries, eliminate pensions and have the teachers pay for their own healthcare then school taxes would go down substantially and then you may be able just tax those with children in school

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/20/12 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


what percentage of the portfolio is invested in firearms?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/20/12 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?

yes..........if salaries,pensions and benefits of the unions are also put on the table.


What does one have to do with the other?


if you reduce salaries, eliminate pensions and have the teachers pay for their own healthcare then school taxes would go down substantially and then you may be able just tax those with children in school



You edited out my entire sarcastic 'question' about eliminating school taxes for those without children.

So I ask again... What does one have to do with the other?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/20/12 09:33 PM

Posted by: Teonan

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/20/12 09:43 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats



The usual suspects obviously missed that memo.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/20/12 11:24 PM


Yupper.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/21/12 09:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Wrong again. Look at the South Seneca Romulus Merger study. The average for a teachers salary and benefits is less than $75,000. The other schools in the area are probaly not too much different.



why is there a merger study?

excessive 'teachers' pension and healthcare costs

if the merger goes forward why will the school be out of money by 2018?

excessive 'teachers' pension and healthcare costs

why are all schools in NYS facing money problems?

excessive 'teachers' pension and healthcare costs

why do 'teachers' pay 1/4 less for a family plan per month than others and yet get full coverage?

hum........
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/21/12 09:21 AM

Quote:
Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse



that money should be used for the students
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/21/12 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

The usual suspects obviously missed that memo.


just think if all that money was not used to pay teachers overly generous pensions, overly generous healthcare and large salaries then the money could have been used to install security measures so that this situation may have not happened
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/21/12 10:44 AM


Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?

I'm being serious here. Try to give us some hard numbers that we can look at, as to make a reasoned judgement of a fair pay package.

Maybe that way we can advance the discussion some.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/28/12 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?


tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?


tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there



What the Frick are you TALKING about?
Posted by: grinch

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 10:29 AM

Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans.

Both my wife and I retired from the private sector when guaranteed pensions still were the norm. Mine was a complicated formula based on thirty six years of service and an average of one's final three years salary. When all factors were applied I received approximately 30% of the final 3 years average salary reduced 10% for retiring at 62. In addition it was reduced another 8% to provide 1/2 of the benefit in the event I died before she. When all were applied to my final average, I received approximately 25% of what I was earning prior to retirement. Health and life insurance were available, at a cost. No provision for a COLA.

My wife worked mostly part time jobs when the children were young,but managed to accumulate 15 years of service with her last employer who offered a pension. She recieved a percentage of her final 3 years and it amounted to 12% of her salary. One thing that was provided which has been extremely helpful, they pay for health insurance that supplements medicare.

We are grateful our former employers provided this benefit and continue to do so. We had planned for this and were fortunate to set aside funds in IRA's to supplement our pensions. The tight money policy in recent years has decimated the returns on those funds, and now the principal will be used to pay higher taxes and living expenses.

Of course we receive Social Security and it has a small cola (when they decide to pay it). Now they want to reduce even that small increase.

Compare that to what government workers, including teachers are promised. It should be interesting to say the least.

PS: No I do not have a masters degree, however I had those with such degrees working for me. I also add this: Normal retirement was considered at 65 yrs of age. You could retire at 55 but the benefit would be reduced approximately 1% for each year. Of course your salary would be higher the longer you deferred retirement so it was beneficial to work longer (higher salary average) plus the early retirement penalty would not apply.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?


tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there



What the Frick are you TALKING about?



Come on blue, I'm waiting for some pearls of wisdom from YOU. You're the one wanking about this. Put your money where your mouth is.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

What the Frick are you TALKING about?



are you suggesting that you are not a teacher?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: grinch
Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans...


thanks grinch
the teachers fail to see how little they 'contribute' but are more than willing to collect the overly generous pay, pension and healthcare coverage

for a part time job...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Come on blue, I'm waiting for some pearls of wisdom from YOU. You're the one wanking about this. Put your money where your mouth is.


do you disagree with the facts grinch has presented?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

What the Frick are you TALKING about?



are you suggesting that you are not a teacher?



I hanen't suggested anything.

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Come on blue, I'm waiting for some pearls of wisdom from YOU. You're the one wanking about this. Put your money where your mouth is.


do you disagree with the facts grinch has presented?


I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: grinch
Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans...


thanks grinch
the teachers fail to see how little they 'contribute' but are more than willing to collect the overly generous pay, pension and healthcare coverage

for a part time job...



Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/29/12 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: grinch
Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans...


thanks grinch
the teachers fail to see how little they 'contribute' but are more than willing to collect the overly generous pay, pension and healthcare coverage

for a part time job...



What 'Teachers' are you referring to?
Posted by: grinch

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/30/12 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: grinch
Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans...


thanks grinch
the teachers fail to see how little they 'contribute' but are more than willing to collect the overly generous pay, pension and healthcare coverage

for a part time job...



Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.



MMM. Are you inferring that certain jobs, such as a teacher, and other professionals should have better pension benefits? That comes across as being elitist.

The formulas used to compute pension benefits for public and private sector positions should be comparable not out of balance as they now are.

I have outlined in a prior post how pension benefits were computed by a Fortune 500 company. My former employer has 20000 plus employees, engaged in business worldwide and benefits are comparable to other such companies. To remain competitive in the labor market their benefit package had to be similar to other such firms. When compared to State and Federal pensions it is readily apparent public pensions exceed those offered in the private sector.

The feeling was (and hasn't changed) there are three legs involved in planning one’s retirement, the employers guaranteed pension,(now being displaced by 401k's and similar programs), Social security and personal investments. Many financial planners suggest: to finance an adequate retirement you should plan to have resources that will provide 75% of your previous income in retirement, Outside of the public sector you would be hard pressed to find an employer who provides 60% or more of one's salary as a guaranteed pension. Simply put, it is not economically feasible. If one desires more in retirement they have choices, number one being personal responsibility.

How much you will need depends on your personal expenditures and life style.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/30/12 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.


you can not confirm that pensions are mainly offered to public employees?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/30/12 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book



Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/30/12 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What 'Teachers' are you referring to?


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


have you read the first post?

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?


have you read your most recent posts?

if you need further guidance feel free to ask...


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/30/12 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: grinch
When compared to State and Federal pensions it is readily apparent public pensions exceed those offered in the private sector.


correct
time to convert all workers to a 401k plan
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/30/12 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: grinch
When compared to State and Federal pensions it is readily apparent public pensions exceed those offered in the private sector.


correct
time to convert all workers to a 401k plan

Federal eimployees already have one. It's called a Thrift Savings Plan. Not sure about Postal Workers though... they're on a separate system.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 05:26 AM

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book





My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.


you can not confirm that pensions are mainly offered to public employees?


How the flvck can I confirm anything about the personal work history of someone I've never met?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 11:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: grinch
Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans...


thanks grinch
the teachers fail to see how little they 'contribute' but are more than willing to collect the overly generous pay, pension and healthcare coverage

for a part time job...




What 'Teachers' are you referring to?




I'm still waiting for your answer...


Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.


you can not confirm that pensions are mainly offered to public employees?


No one ever asked that, you dim-bulb.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 11:49 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

[quote=Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?


"have you read your most recent posts?

if you need further guidance feel free to ask..."


I was being sarcastic (as I sated).

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book





My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?



see post #1378361 - 12/19/12

as a start
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.


you can not confirm that pensions are mainly offered to public employees?


How the flvck can I confirm anything about the personal work history of someone I've never met?



their is a website to look up teachers pay and pensions
never said you had to meet them...

keep running in circles
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/31/12 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: grinch
Defined benefit plans (guaranteed pensions)are mostly gone now with the advent of 401K plans...


thanks grinch
the teachers fail to see how little they 'contribute' but are more than willing to collect the overly generous pay, pension and healthcare coverage

for a part time job...




What 'Teachers' are you referring to?



I'm still waiting for your answer...


see post #1379921 - Yesterday at 10:02 AM
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/01/13 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book





My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?



Hey, Nimrod. I ask AGAIN... what does my profession have to do with teacher's compensations ? ? ?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/01/13 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book





My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?



see post #1378361 - 12/19/12

as a start



If you can't bother to post the thread chain, don't expect me to participate in your little game of 'selectively edited debating'.

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/01/13 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.


you can not confirm that pensions are mainly offered to public employees?


How the flvck can I confirm anything about the personal work history of someone I've never met?



their is a website to look up teachers pay and pensions
never said you had to meet them...

keep running in circles


In what possible way does that have ANYTHING to do with my discussion on this thread?

I'm obviously not the one running in circles.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/01/13 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

What the Frick are you TALKING about?



are you suggesting that you are not a teacher?



Are you suggesting I AM ? ? ?

Please answer my above questions, as your torrential deluge of non sequiturs has me suspecting that you have suffered a massive cranial hemorrhage, and should receive immediate medical attention.


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/02/13 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book





My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?



see post #1378361 - 12/19/12

as a start



If you can't bother to post the thread chain,


it is THIS thread
look at the prior posts
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/02/13 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in th book





My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?



see post #1378361 - 12/19/12

as a start



If you can't bother to post the thread chain,


it is THIS thread
look at the prior posts



You can stop wasting our time now.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/13 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

What the Frick are you TALKING about?



are you suggesting that you are not a teacher?



Are you suggesting I AM ? ? ?

Please answer my above questions, as your torrential deluge of non sequiturs has me suspecting that you have suffered a massive cranial hemorrhage, and should receive immediate medical attention.




C'mon Blue, I'm waiting for some answers regarding a dozen (or so) of your ridiculous accusations.

Otherwise, I'm calling you out in front of the forum community, to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/13 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Tell us about you career. Then we can make a determination as to whether or not your compensation is justified.

Originally Posted By: Teonan
deflection...the oldest game in the book


My question:
"Just for giggles blue, how would you feel about laying out a financial plan for what YOU think would be just compensation for our primary and high school educator's salary, benefits and retirement?"

Your response:
"Tell us what your salary, benefits and retirement consists of now then we can go from there."

---------------------

Who's deflecting ? ? ?

I asked YOU to provide a plan that we could consider. Don't change the subject and then accuse me of doing what YOU are are guilty of. OK Sport?



see post #1378361 - 12/19/12

as a start


If you can't bother to post the thread chain, don't expect me to participate in your little game of 'selectively edited debating'.

#1378361 - 12/19/12 10:43 AM Re: 401 k versus state pension plan [Re: Timbo]

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What if we simply eliminated school taxes altogether for those without children and let those WITH children make up the difference based on the number of children they have? Wouldn't that be even MORE fair?



have the teachers convert to a 401k and pay for their healthcare

school budgets would see a large drop in expenditures

paying a teacher $60,000 per year in retirement and paying their full healthcare at age 55 is illogical


are you not able to look up a post number?


Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/13 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

have the teachers convert to a 401k and pay for their healthcare

school budgets would see a large drop in expenditures

paying a teacher $60,000 per year in retirement and paying their full healthcare at age 55 is illogical


Stay with me now.

What... does... this... have to do with ME ? ? ?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/13 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

What the Frick are you TALKING about?



are you suggesting that you are not a teacher?



We'll try AGAIN...

Why... do... you... think that I AM a teacher?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/13 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
are you not able to look up a post number?


I'm UNWILLING to.

If you can't be bothered to politely provide the discussion in an organized and easy to read manner, then I won't waste my time chasing down your half-cocked, stream-of-consciousness ramblings, that you're trying to pass off as a debate. Get it?

You seriously need to get over your overbearing, sense of entitlement.

> Sheesh! <


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/04/13 07:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/04/13 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?
BZ, Rimbo was never in the Navy. If he was in the Navy, he would have been thrown overboard by his shipmates.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/04/13 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?


More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/04/13 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?
BZ, Rimbo was never in the Navy. If he was in the Navy, he would have been thrown overboard by his shipmates.


I'd revisit the whole DD-214 thing, but we know who's REALLY hiding the details of their military service history. ;\)
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/04/13 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

What the Frick are you TALKING about?



are you suggesting that you are not a teacher?



We'll try AGAIN...

Why... do... you... think that I AM a teacher?



Hello... bluezone... We're still waiting for your answer...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/05/13 08:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.

and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?

More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!


do you have a rough dollar amount?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/05/13 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.

and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?

More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!


do you have a rough dollar amount?


Just as soon as you answer my question.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/07/13 07:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?


More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!



would it be around $1 Trillion?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/09/13 08:54 AM

are you stumped?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/09/13 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
are you stumped?



See my above post.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/09/13 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?


More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!



would it be around $1 Trillion?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/09/13 09:07 AM


That wasn't the question, was it numb-nut?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/09/13 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?


More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!



would it be around $1 Trillion?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/09/13 09:21 AM


As your preoccupation with this matter might imply an obsessive-compulsive disorder, may I suggest getting proper medical help, OR perhaps you could look it up somewhere.

Good luck and good riddance.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/10/13 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
to be recognized as what we called in the Navy, 'The Company Bug'.


and how much money did the USA spend on the military for last year?


More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!



we were under the impression that you had the numbers readily available
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/10/13 01:14 PM


As usual, you (plural) made assumptions without any facts.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/14/13 07:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

As usual, you (plural) made assumptions without any facts.



Originally Posted By: Timbo
More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!


you commented seventeen largest navies combined

you must have numbers to back up that comment
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/18/13 05:14 AM

Originally Posted By: grinch
When compared to State and Federal pensions it is readily apparent public pensions exceed those offered in the private sector.


correct
time to convert all workers to a 401k plan
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/18/13 06:06 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

As usual, you (plural) made assumptions without any facts.



Originally Posted By: Timbo
More than the next seventeen largest Navies COMBINED!


you commented seventeen largest navies combined

you must have numbers to back up that comment




Not until you answer my original question. Why do you think I'm a teacher?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/22/13 06:17 PM

why should taxpayers fund teachers pensions?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/22/13 07:37 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
why should taxpayers fund teachers pensions?


Are you suggesting that teachers are not taxpayers?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/23/13 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Are you suggesting that teachers are not taxpayers?


the teachers get far more out of their pension then they ever put in

why not convert to a 401k if you say the teachers already put 90% into their pension?


Quote:
Q: I'm retired, collecting a pension and worried. What could happen to my monthly check?
A: Your checks are secure today and into the future. All of the pension funds that cover NYSUT members (see chart below) remain adequately funded to meet their obligations to current and future retirees.
In addition, the New York State Constitution guarantees no public retirement allowance will be reduced once it is implemented.


translation - taxpayers will bail out the teachers pension system

Quote:
"We are very concerned about the financial situation facing New York state and the nation as a whole," said NYSUT President Dick Iannuzzi.



convert to a 401k system for the teachers



Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/23/13 08:12 AM

Quote:
Pension system Assets NYS Teachers Retirement System $105 billion


Total membership Public school teachers and most
teaching assistants outside of NYC, and some SUNY faculty 403,000


$105,000,000 / 403,000 = $260,545 / 30 years in retirement = $8684 per year

consider the average teacher gets $42,000 per year in pension retirement who makes up the difference between the $8684 and the $42,000?

$42,000 - $8684 = $33316 SHORTFALL per year that the taxpayers have to pay for



Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/24/13 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
Pension system Assets NYS Teachers Retirement System $105 billion


Total membership Public school teachers and most
teaching assistants outside of NYC, and some SUNY faculty 403,000


$105,000,000 / 403,000 = $260,545 / 30 years in retirement = $8684 per year
Do you mean 105,000,000,000?

consider the average teacher gets $42,000 per year in pension retirement who makes up the difference between the $8684 and the $42,000?
Your list above includes teaching assistants.
How many of them average an annual pension of $42,000?


$42,000 - $8684 = $33316 SHORTFALL per year that the taxpayers have to pay for
I guess you are right....if all 403,000 retire at the same time and live 30 more years after retirement.


Hey nocluezone,your 3rd grade teacher called, she wants her worksheets back, you are embarrassing her.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/25/13 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

$105,000,000 / 403,000 = $260,545 / 30 years in retirement = $8684 per year
Do you mean 105,000,000,000?



the final number is correct at only $8684 per year
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/25/13 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Your list above includes teaching assistants.
How many of them average an annual pension of $42,000?



the employee is only putting a very small amount compared to what they will get in retirement

3% for ten years

many teachers will get more than $42,000
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/25/13 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

$105,000,000,000 / 403,000 = $260,545 / 30 years in retirement = $8684 per year

I guess you are right....if all 403,000 retire at the same time and live 30 more years after retirement.


$260,545 / $42,000 = 6.2 years

and how many will live longer than 6.2 years?

after 6.2 years the 'teacher' has used up their retirement fund of which they only 'contributed' about $15,000 out of the $260,545


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/25/13 03:00 PM

Quote:
Cuomo: Syracuse can save $12M through new pension financing plan
By Mike McAndrew | mmcandrew@syracuse.com
on January 22, 2013 at 2:49 PM,

Albany, N.Y. -- Syracuse can save $12 million through a proposed new pension contribution financing option, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said today during his budget presentation.
Under the plan, local governments and school districts would be given the option to “lock in” long-term, stable rate pension contributions for a period of years determined by the Comptroller and the Teachers’ Retirement System (TRS).
Under the plan, pension contributions will reduce near-term payments for municipalities, but will require higher than normal contributions in the latter years.
Syracuse could save an estimated $12 million on its pension contribution in the first year, according to the state Division of Budget.

"This is a significant way to alleviate the financial stress on local governments," Cuomo said during his budget presentation in Albany. "It provides the municipalities a way to get through this pension bubble."
Following the governor's presentation, Syracuse officials said they needed more details on the pension payment plan before they could say how it might affect the city.
The governor's budget briefing book noted that some local officials believe that their city, town, village or school will approach functional and fiscal insolvency if faced with continued, unfettered growth in near-term pension costs.


and what is your opinion on cuomos plan?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/26/13 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
I guess you are right....if all 403,000 retire at the same time and live 30 more years after retirement.


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


it is underfunded or the money would be in there for each retiree
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/26/13 02:49 PM


It is apparent you did not read the article YOU posted.

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


tell us which is fact and which is fiction?


Ok investment and teacher contributions was 89.9 per cent for 2012. I found it in the article you posted RE privatization. Did you read the article?
Sorry I was exaggerating when I said 90 percent.

Why teacher pension costs will keep rising
Thursday July 5, 2012 3:21 PM By E.J. McMahon

Quote:
And this, in a nutshell, is why school districts pension costs have risen so much to 11.1 percent in 2012.

Do your work sheet 100 - 11.1 = 89.1 for 2012
And 10 years earlier it was almost entirerly from investment and teacher contributions.

HTTP://WWW.NYSTRS.ORG/MAIN/HEADLINES/2012CAFR.HTM

HTTP://WWW.NYSTRS.ORG/MAIN/HEADLINES/PENSIONCOSTS_2.28.12.HTM

Following are the employer contribution rates for teachers in NYS over the last 20 years.

Fiscal Year Employer Contribution Rate
1992-93 8.00%
1993-94 8.41%
1994-95 7.24%
1995-96 6.37%
1996-97 3.57%
1997-98 1.25%
1998-99 1.42%
1999-00 1.43%
2000-01 0.43%
2001-02 0.36%
2002-03 0.36%
2003-04 2.52%
2004-05 5.63%
2005-06 7.97%
2006-07 8.60%
2007-08 8.73%
2008-09 7.63%
2009-10 6.19%
2010-11 8.62%
2011-12 11.11%
2012-13 11.84%

THIS IS FROM THE SAME ARTICLE POSTED BY NOCLUEZONE:
Why teacher pension costs will keep rising, by E.J. McMahon

During the 12 months ending June 29, the S&P 500 gained just 3.1 percent, excluding dividends. While the pension fund may have done better than that (it will not get around to telling us until the fall), it seems unlikely, given the shaky state of global financial markets, that NYSTRS hit its return target of 8 percent in the fiscal year just ended. This is more bad news for the rest of us.

He was wrong, it actually went up to 8.5 percent
Bad news for the naysayers.

nocluezone banished to the ignore button
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/28/13 04:24 PM

then why do the teachers refuse to convert to a 401k if you say the 'employer'/taxpayer only has to put in a little amount?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/28/13 04:27 PM

Quote:
Cuomo: Syracuse can save $12M through new pension financing plan
By Mike McAndrew | mmcandrew@syracuse.com
on January 22, 2013 at 2:49 PM,

Albany, N.Y. -- Syracuse can save $12 million through a proposed new pension contribution financing option, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said today during his budget presentation.
Under the plan, local governments and school districts would be given the option to “lock in” long-term, stable rate pension contributions for a period of years determined by the Comptroller and the Teachers’ Retirement System (TRS).
Under the plan, pension contributions will reduce near-term payments for municipalities, but will require higher than normal contributions in the latter years.
Syracuse could save an estimated $12 million on its pension contribution in the first year, according to the state Division of Budget.

"This is a significant way to alleviate the financial stress on local governments," Cuomo said during his budget presentation in Albany. "It provides the municipalities a way to get through this pension bubble."
Following the governor's presentation, Syracuse officials said they needed more details on the pension payment plan before they could say how it might affect the city.
The governor's budget briefing book noted that some local officials believe that their city, town, village or school will approach functional and fiscal insolvency if faced with continued, unfettered growth in near-term pension costs.


pension bubble?

but 'fart in the wind' says the pensions are fully funded....



Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/29/13 11:23 PM

nocluezonesays, time to convert all workers to a 401k plan

Someone let nocluezone know that his economist, Why teacher pension costs will keep rising, by E.J. McMahon, calls the pensions to 401K plan a gimmick.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/ope...=OpedColumnists

While it does not directly affect the budgets bottom line, Cuomo also wants to let local governments and school districts outside New York City dramatically underpay their pension bills over next few years, on the pretext that they will make it up with bigger savings in the long term as a result of his recent Tier 6 pension adjustments for newly hired workers. Fortunately, this gimmick cannot move forward without the approval of state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli and the trustees of the state teachers pension fund, who have good reason to block it

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/30/13 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Fortunately, this gimmick cannot move forward without the approval of state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli and the trustees of the state teachers pension fund, who have good reason to block it


why would Dinapoli and the teachers block it if the teacher pay 90% into their pensions?

as you claim...

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind


Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/30/13 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Fewer companies are offering retirement benefits these days – and for the ones that do, many are scaling back their plans.

“The old, traditionally-defined benefit-pension plan is pretty much gone,” said Milton Moskowitz, who’s been compiling an annual list of the “100 Best Companies to Work For” for more than 25 years.


convert to a 401k
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/30/13 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

At least two of the companies on Tubbys list have Defined Benefits Pension Plans


I am jealous of teachers pensions.


quotes from others:

A basic educational challenge is not that teachers are raking it in, but that they are underpaid. If we want to compete with other countries, and chip away at poverty across America, then we need to pay teachers more so as to attract better people into the profession

As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom.
Posted by: cwjga

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/30/13 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
nocluezonesays, time to convert all workers to a 401k plan

Someone let nocluezone know that his economist, Why teacher pension costs will keep rising, by E.J. McMahon, calls the pensions to 401K plan a gimmick.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/ope...=OpedColumnists

While it does not directly affect the budgets bottom line, Cuomo also wants to let local governments and school districts outside New York City dramatically underpay their pension bills over next few years, on the pretext that they will make it up with bigger savings in the long term as a result of his recent Tier 6 pension adjustments for newly hired workers. Fortunately, this gimmick cannot move forward without the approval of state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli and the trustees of the state teachers pension fund, who have good reason to block it



I believe the gimmick is not switching to 401Ks, the gimmick is having local taxpayers underpay the pension costs now, with the assumption that the cost goes down in the future.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/30/13 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

At least two of the companies on Tubbys list have Defined Benefits Pension Plans


I am jealous of teachers pensions.


quotes from others:

A basic educational challenge is not that teachers are raking it in, but that they are underpaid. If we want to compete with other countries, and chip away at poverty across America, then we need to pay teachers more so as to attract better people into the profession

As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom.

Precisely.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

I am jealous of teachers pensions.



sorry put your quote of mine is false

provide the post number




Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
"My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die."


twocats posted the same phrase and she was shown how false it was

do you pay for all the expenses of your neighbors cow?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

I am jealous of teachers pensions.

sorry put your quote of mine is false

provide the post number

Apparently, you're having trouble comprehending the difference between a quote and an editorial.

I can post the number for remedial adult education classes, if that'll help.
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

I am jealous of teachers pensions.



sorry put your quote of mine is false

provide the post number

Inferred from any of your posts on this topic which can be found out of context on any thread!
Anyway, you are admitting it in this post; quote of mine

The following is from YOUR post #1347939.
That you continue to ignore or simply cannot grasp
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=bluezone]
school districts pension costs only rose to 11.1 percent in 2012. \:o


Cruel and unusual punishment to have to go back and reread any of your posts.

Help me Timbo! Can the 8th Amendendment trump the 1st Amendment?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 04:44 PM


It depends on wether or not you hold the right bower.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 05:40 PM

Ever notice how the fool isn't jealous of police pensions, which are far more generous than teachers'?

I think he's just jealous of the summer vacation.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 05:56 PM

A clear case of educator envy. Looks terminal. ;\)

Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Ever notice how the fool isn't jealous of police pensions, which are far more generous than teachers'?

I think he's just jealous of the summer vacation.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: twocats
Ever notice how the fool isn't jealous of police pensions, which are far more generous than teachers'?

I think he's just jealous of the summer vacation.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

OMG! I think we've underestimated bluezone. He's now been revealed to be a cunning, evil genius, with devious designs to secretly arm our teachers by way of a sinister and manipulative pension argument. What better way to assert the gun lobby indoctrination experiment on the general public, than at gun point?

Oh, wait... we're talking about bluezone, aren't we? Nevermind.
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: twocats
Ever notice how the fool isn't jealous of police pensions, which are far more generous than teachers'?

I think he's just jealous of the summer vacation.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!


Maybe his new name should be greenzone, as in green with envy.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 07:03 PM


I LIKE it!
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/31/13 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
"My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die."


twocats posted the same phrase and she was shown how false it was

do you pay for all the expenses of your neighbors cow?

No, and you would only be paying a very little of only some of their expenses, in precisely the same manner as non-smokers and drinkers pay for smokers and drinkers health issues and people with spotless driving records pay for those without and people who don't drive or don't have children or don't own property or don't get sick...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/01/13 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

I am jealous of teachers pensions.

sorry put your quote of mine is false

provide the post number

Apparently, you're having trouble comprehending the difference between a quote and an editorial.

I can post the number for remedial adult education classes, if that'll help.


the phrase you placed in a quote under my post name is incorrect

nice try...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/01/13 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Anyway, you are admitting it in this post; quote of mine



feel free to provide the post number for confirmation of the quote
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/01/13 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
The following is from YOUR post #1347939.
That you continue to ignore or simply cannot grasp

but you stated on the first post of the thread that teachers pay 90% of the pensions?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/01/13 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
A clear case of educator envy.


one would have to educate in order be an 'educator'
yawn
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/01/13 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Deflection... the oldest game in the book


time to convert to a 401k to help the students?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/01/13 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
"My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die."


twocats posted the same phrase and she was shown how false it was

do you pay for all the expenses of your neighbors cow?

No, and you would only be paying a very little of only some of their expenses, in precisely the same manner as non-smokers and drinkers pay for smokers and drinkers health issues and people with spotless driving records pay for those without and people who don't drive or don't have children or don't own property or don't get sick...


so taxpayers should pay for all the teachers pensions and healthcare but others have to pay their own

write cuomo and see what he says...

$8.75

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/03/13 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?





are you sure it should not read...

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from TAXPAYERS?


Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/03/13 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


are you sure it should not read...

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from TAXPAYERS?


Blusy give me back my worksheets. You are embarrassing me.

Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/03/13 10:55 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Anyway, you are admitting it in this post; quote of mine



feel free to provide the post number for confirmation of the quote


Quote:
Originally Posted By: bluezone #1385491

sorry put your quote of mine is false


Are you admitting that you make false quotes?

Maybe you should consider how often you misquote others on this forum. Anyone of the, teller of untruths your trousers are combusting, might be a good start.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Are you admitting that you make false quotes?


never have
the posters quotes speak for themselves

the title of the thread is 401k versus state pension plan

what about the private pension plans or do they not exist?
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 09:19 AM

Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 09:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?
An Oxen yoke and a plow.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 11:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?
An Oxen yoke and a plow.

Apparently bluezone's not the only one without any answers.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?
An Oxen yoke and a plow.

Apparently bluezone's not the only one without any answers.
Is that a fact or your opinion?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?
An Oxen yoke and a plow.

Apparently bluezone's not the only one without any answers.
Is that a fact or your opinion?

We'll let history be the judge.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?


what would you pay someone that 'works' 9 months?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?


what would you pay someone that 'works' 9 months?

You didn't answer the question. Could it be that you don't HAVE any answers, only complaints?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/04/13 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
A clear case of educator envy.


one would have to educate in order be an 'educator'
yawn

You can lead a horse to water...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/05/13 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Bluezone, What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?


what would you pay someone that 'works' 9 months?

You didn't answer the question. Could it be that you don't HAVE any answers, only complaints?


just salary or salary and benefits?
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/05/13 02:25 PM

both
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/05/13 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
both
Okay, a mule and 5 acres. And they have to buy their own plow.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/06/13 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
both


how much do you make as a teacher?
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/06/13 10:13 PM

I am not a teacher.
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/06/13 10:38 PM

Also it would be appreciated if you can take the time to answer the question so that the debate is allowed to move forward.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/06/13 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
Also it would be appreciated if you can take the time to answer the question so that the debate is allowed to move forward.


Good Luck Hicks. He suggested I was a teacher too, and probably won't answer your questions, in the same way he won't answer mine or anyone else's either (even if you ask him repeatedly). He just likes to put words in your mouth and then run away when he's pressed into making sense or defend his often ridiculous assertions.

He never seems to be happy unless he's stirring the pot. Just a heads-up...
Posted by: Hicks McFarmer

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/13 01:42 AM

I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/13 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

You going to poke the bear?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/13 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
What do you feel is adequate compensation for a teacher?


what salary would you pay for a teacher?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/13 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


where is that 'money multiplier'?

converts $15,000 into $1.3 million

even madoff was not that good...
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/13 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/13 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
How do you know about BZ's table manners?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 07:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


does that include healthcare?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
How do you know about BZ's table manners?

That's the part you take exception to?
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 01:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
How do you know about BZ's table manners?

That's the part you take exception to?
Yeah, the rest is your normal run of the mill crappy attitude towards others who have a different opinion.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
How do you know about BZ's table manners?


some one has to serve me my meals...
Posted by: Lucinda Knotts

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 04:20 PM

Everyone has to be served...

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
How do you know about BZ's table manners?

That's the part you take exception to?
Yeah, the rest is your normal run of the mill crappy attitude towards others who have a different opinion.
Have you considered the possibility that I may simply be busting his chops? You really need to lighten up a bit, Francis.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/08/13 05:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Hicks McFarmer
I know Ive been watching him do it for years. But everyone likes to poke the bear once in awhile.

Now why would you want to lump bears into the category with bluezone? Bears are beautiful, majestic and intelligent, and then there's the issue of table manners.
How do you know about BZ's table manners?

That's the part you take exception to?
Yeah, the rest is your normal run of the mill crappy attitude towards others who have a different opinion.
Have you considered the possibility that I may simply be busting his chops? You really need to lighten up a bit, Francis.
Whatever you say Sergeant Hulka!
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/09/13 02:40 PM


Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, BOOM!

Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/09/13 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, BOOM!


More threats from the forum tough guy.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/09/13 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, Boom-Chugga-Lugga-Lugga, BOOM!


More threats from the forum tough guy.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/09/13 11:27 PM


Once again Harley, I was trying to make an amusing little post, not pee on your cornflakes. I think you need mama to tuck you in, you're getting awful cranky tonight. So, just take a breath and relax. Life's too short this kind of childishness.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/11/13 07:13 AM

Quote:
Last week, Cuomo continued the push to rein in public employee pensions, arguing that overgenerous defined-benefit plans are no longer feasible, and that a defined-contribution plan like a 401(k) is reasonable in these difficult times. In fact, he says he is willing to face a government shutdown if met with intransigence on the issue, which is part of his “Battle of Albany.”

Or consider Cuomo’s approach to reforming education. Early on, he sided with accountability-minded reformers, repeatedly stating that “New York is first in spending in education and 38th in results.” That was like fingernails on the chalkboard to defenders of the status quo, who simply advocate for more and more spending on the schools.
Cuomo kept it up. And when a two-year-old law to improve teacher evaluations resulted in a stalemate across the state, Cuomo demanded hard-nosed reform through the budget process.



ask cuomo his concerns regarding pensions
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/14/13 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?



Quote:
Consider a report last month by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, the report found, “a full 63.5 percent” of school funds goes for teacher salaries and benefits — the highest percentage in America “by a considerable margin.”
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/14/13 02:23 PM

Enough of the total disregard for facts and lack of credible information!

Most of the naysayer articles that appear on these posts are written by politicians, hacks for Wall Street and others who want to get their hands on that 88 B in the NYSTRS and other state pension funds and to break up the unions in general. They enlist the support of dupes, like you find on here, by painting a gloomy picture for the taxpayer. Teachers pay state and federal tax, also. Pensions are not perks; they are part of the compensation package promised to teachers when they take the job.

That 88B is not stuck in a mattress. On average over the past several years it increases by 8 percent compounded annually. Multiply 88 B times 1.08 plus teacher contribution. These are the figures that are conveniently or perhaps ignorantly left out of the 3rd grade work sheets.

Here are examples of worksheets that grownups use.

http://www.nystrs.org/main/library/AnnualReport/2012CAFR.pdf

htthttp://www.nystrs.org/main/library/AnnualReport/2012CAFR.pdfp://www.nystrs.org/main/library/AnnualReport/2012CAFR.pdf

Re charts the Dollar amounts are in thousands where indicated.

Here are a few excerpts and pages of interest. These excerpts expose most of the misinformation that has been flying around.

The change in employer contributions was a function of an increase in the employer contribution rate from 8.62% in 2011 to 11.11% in 2012.
Verifies the 90 percent quote, ok, 88.9 percent

Net investment income 2,375,262,000 dollars for 2012. Divide that by the number of retired teachers

End of year $88,056,264,000 for 2012; $89,889,724,000 for 2013
NYSTRS administers its investment portfolio at a very low cost in comparison to the value of assets managed. Investment management expenses and fees for the externally managed or serviced portfolio equate to an annual cost of approximately 57 basis points, while the internally managed portfolio operates at an annual cost of approximately 5 basis points. Combined, the investment portfolio operates at an annual cost of 26 basis points. Our 10-year annualized rate of return now stands at 6.6% and our 25-year return at 8.5%. The latter figure is 50 basis points above our 8.0% actuarially assumed rate of return.


Annual Performance History page 60.
The years 2008 and 2009 are the ones naysayers latch on to and promote to skew the overall picture

Page 87 Schedule of Retired Members and Beneficiaries Added to and Removed from the Benefit Payroll

Page 92 Distribution of Active Members by Age and Years of Service - as of June 30, 2011

Page 96 Members Retired in 2011-2012 for Service With:
Less Than 20 Years equals 17.45%
Between 20 Yrs. and 35 years equals 54.16%
35 Yrs. equals 76.51%


If you are still a teacher basher; chalk it up to pension envy.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/16/13 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Net investment income 2,375,262,000 dollars for 2012. Divide that by the number of retired teachers



and what is the number of retired teachers?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/22/13 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: newsman38
Big Tax Increases Part of South Seneca Schools Budget Talks

Faced with few alternatives to ensure its fiscal survival in the near term, South Seneca Central Schools will consider significant annual tax increases as part of what administrators call a “last man standing” strategy to sustain the district over the next five years.

The prospect of 12-percent annual tax increases was one of three grim budget scenarios presented by District Business Administrator Naomi Zuckerman during Wednesday night’s meeting of the South Seneca Central School District Board of Education.

In the next few years, noted District Superintendent Janie Nusser, more and more school districts across the state will experience insolvency. Around 50 will go broke in the next year, and another 250 districts will follow in the next four years, she said. By seeking additional tax revenue and making cuts as needed, South Seneca schools has found a way to stay afloat for the next five years, she said. During that time, as increasingly more districts head toward bankruptcy, the message to Governor Cuomo and state legislators should ring clear: small districts like South Seneca need guidance to weather the current fiscal storm, she said.

But, as expressed by the board, will district voters pay more in taxes to ensure South Seneca’s survival?

Board President Mike DiPerna thinks so. He referenced the list of district programs that would be lost if the district made $1 million worth of cuts. Among the potential losses: kindergarten, the entire athletic program, elementary band, AP and elective courses and several staff positions.

“If we want to sustain our district, it’s an option we have to put out there for the community to decide.”

Zuckerman said the district’s tax-cap for 2013-14 is tentatively set at 3.87 percent, meaning that any tax increases exceeding the cap will require a super-majority vote – 60 percent or more – from district voters.

The board will continue to discuss its budget options over the next several months, with a finalized 2013-14 budget put to district voters in late May.

Updated: 10:08 am, Fri Feb 15, 2013.
By Louis DiPietro northreporter@flcn.org @FLCNreporter


the taxpayers will most likley vote down these increases

time for more lay offs

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/23/13 10:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Enough of the total disregard for facts and lack of credible information!



if a school runs out of money can the contracts be opened up and amended?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/25/13 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
That 88B is not stuck in a mattress. On average over the past several years it increases by 8 percent compounded annually.

The change in employer contributions was a function of an increase in the employer contribution rate from 8.62% in 2011 to 11.11% in 2012.
Verifies the 90 percent quote, ok, 88.9 percent

[i]Net investment income 2,375,262,000 dollars for 2012.


8% + 11.11% = 19.11%

why did the net not increase by 19.11%

seems it only returned under 3%



$88,000,000,000 x 19.11% = $1,681,680,000,000



$1,681,680,000,000 - $2,375,262,000 = $1,679,304,738,000 shortage in fund

guess who makes up the difference...

and that is only one year of losses


Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/25/13 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
That 88B is not stuck in a mattress. On average over the past several years it increases by 8 percent compounded annually.

The change in employer contributions was a function of an increase in the employer contribution rate from 8.62% in 2011 to 11.11% in 2012.
Verifies the 90 percent quote, ok, 88.9 percent

[i]Net investment income 2,375,262,000 dollars for 2012.


8% + 11.11% = 19.11%

why did the net not increase by 19.11%

seems it only returned under 3%



$88,000,000,000 x 19.11% = $1,681,680,000,000



$1,681,680,000,000 - $2,375,262,000 = $1,679,304,738,000 shortage in fund

guess who makes up the difference...

and that is only one year of losses




Did you subtract the money that is paid out in pensions?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/01/13 02:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did you subtract the money that is paid out in pensions?


the fund had a 16% lose
how many years can it sustain a 16% lose year after year?

the taxpayers will bail you out...


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/03/13 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: genevabeliever
The Council’s November 2012 survey report found percent of superintendents anticipating financial insolvency for their districts within two years and 41 percent in within four years.

School districts have been drawing down reserves to spare students and taxpayers from budget actions that would have had more drastic impact. But those resources are disappearing fast.

Half the districts in the state used more from fund balance in their budgets this year than they have remaining for use next year.

Some hard to control costs – especially pension contributions and health care premiums have been surging.

State government projects that health insurance costs on behalf of its employees and retirees will rise by and average of over 7 percent per year over the next three years.

Teachers Retirement System costs will exceed what nearly all districts would receive from either of their two primary revenue sources given the state’s caps on School Aid and property taxes. For many districts, that one cost would exceed the total revenue they would receive from both sources."



but 'fart in the wind' says the 'teachers' pay their own way...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/07/13 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Austerity in the US, unlike in Europe, is renamed and packaged for the public as "deficit reduction programs" or "fiscal responsibility." Distractions such as "fiscal cliffs" and "debt ceilings" focus public attention on mere secondary details of austerity. Politicians, media and academics use such distractions to wrangle over whose taxes will go up how much and which recipients of government spending will suffer what size cuts. They do not debate austerity itself; that is, they do not debate very idea of raising mass taxes and cutting spending in a deep and long economic downturn. They do not explore the interests served and undermined by any austerity policy. So we will.




will you walk the walk?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/11/13 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
entry into the field of education is too easy.


no reason to offer overgenerous pension and healthcare for easy entry
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/18/13 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: genevabeliever
Some hard to control costs – especially pension contributions and health care premiums have been surging.

State government projects that health insurance costs on behalf of its employees and retirees will rise by and average of over 7 percent per year over the next three years.


time to make cuts to their salaries
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/21/13 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

If you are still a teacher basher; chalk it up to pension envy.


wait til you see what cuomo has in store for you in the near future
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/03/13 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Pensions are safer and cost less in the long run.


is that why all your friends do not have a pension?

hope you enjoyed your taxpayer paid week off...

...all about the students
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/09/13 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: genevabeliever
Some hard to control costs – especially pension contributions and health care premiums have been surging.



eliminate pensions and let the employee pay for their own retirement

raise the amount that the employee has to pay for their healthcare
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/09/13 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
entry into the field of education is too easy.


no reason to offer overgenerous pension and healthcare for easy entry



You’re a big joke; name the annual salary of most professions that requires at least a Bachelor’s Degree and in the case of the last 20 years, an additional Master Degree is mandated. If you find the answer to my question, you’ll realize that the pay is in line with most professionals, which by the way, you’re evidently not, based on all the rhetoric and bashing we witness from your postings.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/09/13 10:29 AM


Somebody had to say it.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/09/13 11:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Somebody had to say it.
I'll bet you wish your pay was inline with ny pay.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/10/13 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
name the annual salary of most professions that requires at least a Bachelor’s Degree and in the case of the last 20 years, an additional Master Degree is mandated. If you find the answer to my question, you’ll realize that the pay is in line with most professionals


and you name the 'professional' that 'works' 3 hours day
gets all summers off
works no weekends
gets a full paid week off every month all year long
pays nothing into their retirement but gets over $2 million of taxpayers money
pays no income taxes on their pensions
pays near nothing for their full lifetime healthcare
has complete job security
does not have to perform their 'job' as they get paid no matter the results
retires at age 55


feel free to post the long list of 'professionals' that fall under those conditions


Quote:
cuomo - NYS pays the most for education but ranks 34th


Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/10/13 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
name the annual salary of most professions that requires at least a Bachelor’s Degree and in the case of the last 20 years, an additional Master Degree is mandated. If you find the answer to my question, you’ll realize that the pay is in line with most professionals


and you name the 'professional' that 'works' 3 hours daygets all summers offworks no weekends
gets a full paid week off every month all year long
pays nothing into their retirement but gets over $2 million of taxpayers money
pays no income taxes on their pensions
pays near nothing for their full lifetime healthcare
has complete job security
does not have to perform their 'job' as they get paid no matter the results
retires at age 55


feel free to post the long list of 'professionals' that fall under those conditions


Quote:
cuomo - NYS pays the most for education but ranks 34th




LOL....I thought that you would give me a hard question
Most members of Congress and the U.S. Senate. Sadly you justify half of them, particularly those that stand on the Conservative side of the aisles. They make just S-L-I-G-H-T-L-Y more than teachers
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/11/13 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I thought that you would give me a hard question


you failed to provide the long list of professionals that you stated prior

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
name the annual salary of most professions that requires at least a Bachelor’s Degree and in the case of the last 20 years, an additional Master Degree is mandated. If you find the answer to my question, you’ll realize that the pay is in line with most professionals


Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Most members of Congress and the U.S. Senate. They make just S-L-I-G-H-T-L-Y more than teachers


when can the taxpayers start voting out a teacher?
Posted by: Sketch

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/11/13 09:52 AM

Oh boy. Poor BZ is still disgruntled with the American educator. His jealousy is glaring today!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/11/13 10:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I thought that you would give me a hard question


you failed to list local 'professionals'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/11/13 10:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Sketch
the American educator.


still fighting the 'teach'er evaluations?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/11/13 11:48 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I thought that you would give me a hard question


you failed to list local 'professionals'

You just can't help changing the rules, half-way into the game, can you (see post #1396571)? A clear-cut case of textbook, pathological behavior, if there ever was.
Posted by: Sketch

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/11/13 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sketch
the American educator.


still fighting the 'teach'er evaluations?



Many I know are fighting stupidity and a misguided system. But you do get attractive in your acrimonious state!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
the financial landscape in New York has changed dramatically since 2008. Higher infrastructure costs, increases in health care, salaries, pensions,



but you said pensions are covered by the employees...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Sketch
Many I know are fighting stupidity and a misguided system.


how soon before the schools have to merge?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere


LOL....I thought that you would give me a hard question
Most members of Congress and the U.S. Senate.


how can they have complete job security if they have to be voted in every few years?

post the list...
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere


LOL....I thought that you would give me a hard question
Most members of Congress and the U.S. Senate.


how can they have complete job security if they have to be voted in every few years?

post the list...



Stick with your original response(s) emphasis on the plural

gets a full paid week off every month all year long
pays nothing into their retirement but gets over $2 million of taxpayers money
pays no income taxes on their pensions
pays near nothing for their full lifetime healthcare
has complete job security
does not have to perform their 'job' as they get paid no matter the results
retires at age 55

No job is entirely secured and based on my understanding, a school principal's job in your area is questionable?

Now tell me how many politician will have some form of job security based on their education? My daughter has a Masters Degree in education along with an Administrative Certificate, if she can't command at least $70,000 annually, there is a serious problem with the pay scale in the United States. Again, before you respond with your nonsense, give me the current salaries as I previously requested of you, listing the salaries of professionals holding at least a Master Degree. BTW: Your profession is_________?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
My daughter has a Masters Degree in education along with an Administrative Certificate, if she can't command at least $70,000 annually, there is a serious problem with the pay scale in the United States.


what is her TOTAL COMPENSATION PACKAGE?
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
My daughter has a Masters Degree in education along with an Administrative Certificate, if she can't command at least $70,000 annually, there is a serious problem with the pay scale in the United States.


what is her TOTAL COMPENSATION PACKAGE?



What's the total compensation package of, a CEO,CFO, President of any corporation? You seem to skirt the issue of listing those professional compensation packages I ask for.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
What's the total compensation package of, a CEO,CFO, President of any corporation?


a 'teach'er is a CEO, CFO or president of a company?

nice try...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
My daughter has a Masters Degree in education along with an Administrative Certificate, if she can't command at least $70,000 annually


a 'teach'er starting at $45,000 is making $77,000 annually after you factor in all the time they have 'off'

and that is before you even total in the full healthcare and pension costs to taxpayers


Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
What's the total compensation package of, a CEO,CFO, President of any corporation?


a 'teach'er is a CEO, CFO or president of a company?

nice try...


There is a clear disconnect on your part, the educational requirements are similar, Bachelor, Masters, PHD etc. It's well noted that your ability to skirt issues are minimal at best, almost an effort in futility to be perfectly honest. Any honest job is an honorable job but it appears that your lack of education and the low pay scale it commands has made you somewhat bitter toward those that have spent 4-8 years matriculating and afterward seeking a rewarding and good paying occupation. Maybe in retrospect, you could have demanded more of yourself thus command a larger salary along with "compensation"
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:28 AM

I retired as an Master Electrician, educate yourself(no pun intended) and find out the requirements to achieve that ranking. I can command a higher salary based on my know how and experience. Why you've dedicated yourself to hating professions that have earned the rights to well compensated packages is self explanatory and it's almost laughable to think that an individual as yourself would decline any such offerings and graciously decline and move on to something less rewarding.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
the educational requirements are similar, Bachelor, Masters, PHD etc.


then your daughter can be a CEO or president of a company

failure to produce and the job is removed
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I can command a higher salary based on my know how and experience.


and if you do not get the 'job done' then your pay is reduced or eliminated
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
the educational requirements are similar, Bachelor, Masters, PHD etc.


then your daughter can be a CEO or president of a company

failure to produce and the job is removed


YEP!!!! graduated from Cornell and if she were fired as a CEO, what are odds of getting another CEO position in a short period of time? Additionally her next tenure made be even more lucrative. Still waiting for that list of professionals and their salaries as well as your current or past profession. I didn't say any of these packages were fair but it is what it is until the largest abusers of these issue are voted out or learn to do their job of representing all voters who placed them in office in the first place. That, in it self will not happen anytime soon though. Maybe your Conservative politicians can take the lead in bringing our nation into some degree of fiscal responsibility starting with their own salaries and compensation packages. ;\)
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/12/13 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet. What's the possibility that you'll get more back than you've put into any of them concerning pensions,401K ,Social Security or Medicare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
YEP!!!! graduated from Cornell and if she were fired as a CEO, what are odds of getting another CEO position in a short period of time?


who said she would even be able to handle a CEO position?

if you are not able to handle 15 kids how can you run a large company?

if she got fired for not performing her job most likely she would not find another company to work for unless she took a cut in pay
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet.


will your employer be paying you 60% of your last salary for your pension?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS


Originally Posted By: Ohithere
YEP!!!! graduated from Cornell and if she were fired as a CEO, what are odds of getting another CEO position in a short period of time?


maybe your employer will hire your daughter to run their company

most likely not...



Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet.


will your employer be paying you 60% of your last salary for your pension?



What entitlements do you receive that you paid into 100% with no one else and I mean nobody paid toward it.? Supplemental Security Income (SSI) comes to mind as an unearned entitlement.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet.


will your employer be paying you 60% of your last salary for your pension?

Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet.


will your employer be paying you 60% of your last salary for your pension?



We can go around in circles all day...I'm game. I've asked you several question a few days back with no response of yet, so your one sided display of avoidance is greatly noted. ;\) for all practical purposes, don't ask if you're not willing to answer.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet.


will your employer be paying you 60% of your last salary for your pension?



What entitlements do you receive that you paid into 100% with no one else and I mean nobody paid toward it.? Supplemental Security Income (SSI) comes to mind as an unearned entitlement.


we will take that to mean your employer DOES NOT pay you 60% of your final salary for your pension

then taxpayers should not have to pay for teachers overgenerous pensions either

eliminate the teachers pensions and use the money for the students
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/13/13 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


did taxpayers pay all your pension and lifetime healthcare?

deduct that amount from you salary and see what the amount is


In some respect YES.....My employer contributed toward my pension ,health care and the SS that I will start receiving is somewhat paid by "taxpayers" who aren't receiving it yet.


will your employer be paying you 60% of your last salary for your pension?



What entitlements do you receive that you paid into 100% with no one else and I mean nobody paid toward it.? Supplemental Security Income (SSI) comes to mind as an unearned entitlement.


we will take that to mean your employer DOES NOT pay you 60% of your final salary for your pension

then taxpayers should not have to pay for teachers overgenerous pensions either

eliminate the teachers pensions and use the money for the students

Conclusive proof that when you don't know the facts, you make up that which you want to be believe.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Conclusive proof that when you don't know the facts, you make up that which you want to be believe.


so tell us if he gets a pension?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
In Belgium, courtesy of the US taxpayers.

WASHINGTON – Around the same time the State Department was warning the public about the painful pinch from sequester cuts, it was also signing off on a $700,000 gardening contract at the home of a U.S. ambassador in Belgium, federal documents show.


and how much will your pension paid for by taxpayers amount to?

$2+ million?

and how much for your lifetime healthcare paid for by taxpayers?

another $2 million?
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Conclusive proof that when you don't know the facts, you make up that which you want to be believe.


so tell us if he gets a pension?



Do I get a pension? To be perfectfully honest with you, that would make no difference in your response. You’re like a tornado which spins and has the ability to move side to side or up and down and your predictability is just about nil....that being, you ask question expecting an answer but you in turn fail to give a reasonable or sensible response pertaining to the questions posed to you. Our original focus was on teachers’ salaries and pensions, so if you want resume that topic and respond to my questions presented many-many posts ago, we may make some headway but until then, I choose to get off your nonsensical merry-go- round
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:13 PM

HA! Tornado! I was thinking someone left a window open and a cuckoo bird flew in! \:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:20 PM

should you be doing your lesson plan for tomorrow?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Do I get a pension?


you stated you do not
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
To be perfectfully honest with you, that would make no difference in your response.


you do not get a pension paid by taxpayers so why should taxpayers pay for all of a teachers pension?

let them pay for their own retirement like you do
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
To be perfectfully honest with you, that would make no difference in your response.


you do not get a pension paid by taxpayers so why should taxpayers pay for all of a teachers pension?

let them pay for their own retirement like you do




Your Honor, I rest my case...SMH
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
HA! Tornado! I was thinking someone left a window open and a cuckoo bird flew in! \:D



selective memory?

Originally Posted By: twocats
In Belgium, courtesy of the US taxpayers.

WASHINGTON – Around the same time the State Department was warning the public about the painful pinch from sequester cuts, it was also signing off on a $700,000 gardening contract at the home of a


interesting that most of your posts question the waste of taxpayer money unless it applies to your salary and benefits...

hypoc....
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
HA! Tornado! I was thinking someone left a window open and a cuckoo bird flew in! \:D



LOL....or out! to continue his rein of terror on the intelligent and innocent.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere

Your Honor


chase your tail
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
I retired as an Master Electrician


not able to run your own company?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?

401 k versus state pension plan


what about 401k versus private pension plan?

must be you do not want to pay more for the items you buy
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
LOL....


you gonna brag about how you fixed a car?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
What's the total compensation package of, a CEO,CFO, President of any corporation?


sorry you were not able to reach those levels

try again
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
What's the total compensation package of, a CEO,CFO, President of any corporation?


sorry you were not able to reach those levels

try again


I'm embarrassed for you Man.....totally adolescent
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
HA! Tornado! I was thinking someone left a window open and a cuckoo bird flew in! \:D


Originally Posted By: Ohithere

I'm embarrassed for you Man.....totally adolescent


walk the walk
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?

401 k versus state pension plan


what about 401k versus private pension plan?

must be you do not want to pay more for the items you buy
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
HA! Tornado! I was thinking someone left a window open and a cuckoo bird flew in! \:D


Originally Posted By: Ohithere

I'm embarrassed for you Man.....totally adolescent


walk the walk



Again...I'm embarrassed for you \:\(
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: twocats
HA! Tornado! I was thinking someone left a window open and a cuckoo bird flew in! \:D


Again...I'm embarrassed for you \:\(


time to plan tomorrows lessons...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?

401 k versus state pension plan


what about 401k versus private pension plan?

must be you do not want to pay more for the items you buy
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:31 PM

Most people on here have used the ignore user function for blewnose.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/18/13 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?

401 k versus state pension plan


what about 401k versus private pension plan?

must be you do not want to pay more for the items you buy



must be your only concern is that of public employees
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/29/13 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Most people


where is your proof?
Posted by: WalterM

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/03/13 04:24 AM

Thanks for starting this thread.With all the not so great news going around nowadays, people who have 401(k) policies have some great news. Earnings on 401(k) policies have been sneaking up over the past year according to press announcements from numerous outlets.Source for this article: https://personalmoneynetwork.com/
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/05/13 09:13 PM

May 2013
April 25, 2013
Will pension smoothing law jeopardize my benefit?
Source: NYSUT United

Q: I saw that the TRS board approved a "pension-smoothing" plan to take some of the pressure off school districts. How will this work and will it jeopardize my pension?

A: After the governor proposed the idea in January, the New York State Teachers' Retirement System studied the issue carefully, including an internal review and hiring Cheiron Inc., a Virginia-based actuarial consulting firm, to conduct an independent analysis. The Legislature approved the plan as part of the state budget, which the governor signed into law on March 29. At a special meeting on April 9, the NYSTRS Retirement Board unanimously approved implementation of the plan.

The plan allows NYSTRS employers to elect a seven-year stable contribution option, rather than paying the annual contribution rate as calculated by TRS. (In 2013-14, districts are slated to contribute 16.25 percent.)

Districts will have one year, starting July 1, to decide whether to opt into the alternative plan.

Under the seven-year stable contribution plan, employers would contribute 14 percent in years one and two; up to 16 percent in years three and four; and up to 18 percent in years five, six and seven. Beginning in year eight (2020-21), employers would return to paying the actuarially required contribution rate set by TRS.

Participating employers will be able to opt out of the stable contribution plan at any point. Those opting out will resume payment of the actuarially required contribution rate and will be required to begin repaying any deferred amount, with interest.

It's important to note that the law has built-in safeguards to protect the TRS fund and pension benefits.

If TRS' funded status falls below 80 percent, the alternative plan will terminate and all participating employers will resume paying the actuarially required contribution. Currently, NYSTRS has 95 percent or more of the funds needed to pay benefits to retirees and beneficiaries, as well as the accrued benefits of active members - making TRS one of the best-funded plans in the nation.

NYSUT supported the pension smoothing plan to give school districts a potential solution to the short-term spike in the employer contribution rates, while maintaining the integrity of the state retirement system fund.

Prior to the current spike in employer contribution rates, school district payment rates were in single digits for more than 20 years. In six of those years, the rate was less than 2 percent — including three years when it was less than one-half of 1 percent.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/08/13 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Will pension smoothing law jeopardize my benefit?
Source: NYSUT United


just convert to a 401k

good to see you are worried about the students teachers...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/08/13 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Under the seven-year stable contribution plan, employers would contribute 14 percent in years one and two; up to 16 percent in years three and four; and up to 18 percent in years five, six and seven.


and when the schools run out of a budget reserve how many will have to merge?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/09/13 07:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Source:


how many years will it take to double your money if you get a 25% return each year?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/28/13 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Kitty Katt
the powerful Teachers Union and the retirement system that present the greatest financial problems school districts face.

Teachers Unions: (1) In a day and age where private sector employees must pay a significant percentage, if not all, of their health care insurance, teachers - even those who are retired - make very small contributions to their health insurance. This is a huge financial burden to those who pay school taxes, but the powerful Teachers Unions always seem to win out when negotiating health insurance.

(2) The retirement benefits teachers and administrators receive are outrageous. Virtually everyone knows of husband/wife retired teachers who are receiving combined retirement incomes exceeding $100,000 per year. For having been teachers, not rocket scientists!

Then we have retired principals and superintendents who are receiving annual retirement earnings of $90,000 or more per year. And, they have great health insurance on top of that.

Combine these outrageous retirement incomes and excellent retirement benefits with the fact that teachers and administrators can retire at 55, and collect these benefits for decades following their retirement.

Perhaps we've reached that point where schools, like hospitals and nursing homes, should be run by private companies.



when the school budget reserves run out so will the money to pay for those over generous benefits
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/12/13 07:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Colorado went from defined benefit pension plans to 401 k s about nine years ago.


if you get a 25% return on your investment year after year

how many years would it take to double?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/12/13 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
(2) The retirement benefits teachers and administrators receive are outrageous. Virtually everyone knows of husband/wife retired teachers who are receiving combined retirement incomes exceeding $100,000 per year. For having been teachers, not rocket scientists!

Please provide a list (sliding scale, preferably) of professions and the rightful amount that they should receive, based upon investment in education, training, years in service, hours worked and net-worth to society. Please enumerate possible variables, as to provide a fair and just performance-based reward system, that eliminates all incongruence.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 08:02 AM

Kitty Katt posted that

have you not learned how to use the 'quote' feature?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Kitty Katt posted that

have you not learned how to use the 'quote' feature?

That's OK. I'm sure Kitty's smart enough to figure out that it was simple keyboard error.
Posted by: mimi33

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 02:27 PM

It is obvious from BZ's posts that he (or she, as the case may be) has no idea what he's talking about. Pension vs 401(k)? It's not an either/or proposition. Many companies, including my husband's, offer both. He has a pension and he participates in his companies 401(k) plan. Most teachers can participate in their school districts 403(b) plan, which is very similar to a 401 (k) except for some small differences in distribution rules and investment structure. His obvious hatred of teachers is disturbing. His ignorance regarding employer sponsored retirement plans is appalling.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 04:01 PM


If you were bluezone, wouldn't you be angry that the education system 'failed' you?
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
It is obvious from BZ's posts that he (or she, as the case may be) has no idea what he's talking about. Pension vs 401(k)? It's not an either/or proposition. Many companies, including my husband's, offer both. He has a pension and he participates in his companies 401(k) plan. Most teachers can participate in their school districts 403(b) plan, which is very similar to a 401 (k) except for some small differences in distribution rules and investment structure. His obvious hatred of teachers is disturbing. His ignorance regarding employer sponsored retirement plans is appalling.
why is it appalling?
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: mimi33
It is obvious from BZ's posts that he (or she, as the case may be) has no idea what he's talking about. Pension vs 401(k)? It's not an either/or proposition. Many companies, including my husband's, offer both. He has a pension and he participates in his companies 401(k) plan. Most teachers can participate in their school districts 403(b) plan, which is very similar to a 401 (k) except for some small differences in distribution rules and investment structure. His obvious hatred of teachers is disturbing. His ignorance regarding employer sponsored retirement plans is appalling.
why is it appalling?


I guess that asking such a stupid question on an obviously well versed and intelligent statement, places you also in that apparently appalling position CJ.
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: mimi33
It is obvious from BZ's posts that he (or she, as the case may be) has no idea what he's talking about. Pension vs 401(k)? It's not an either/or proposition. Many companies, including my husband's, offer both. He has a pension and he participates in his companies 401(k) plan. Most teachers can participate in their school districts 403(b) plan, which is very similar to a 401 (k) except for some small differences in distribution rules and investment structure. His obvious hatred of teachers is disturbing. His ignorance regarding employer sponsored retirement plans is appalling.
why is it appalling?


I guess that asking such a stupid question on an obviously well versed and intelligent statement, places you also in that apparently appalling position CJ.


Your mimi33?
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 04:50 PM

You mean "you're" No I'm Ohithere
Secondly the ignorance was originally referenced to Bluezone
last but most importantly, try and stay on subject
Posted by:

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Ohithere
You mean "you're" No I'm Ohithere
Secondly the ignorance was originally referenced to Bluezone
last but most importantly, try and stay on subject


By God, you must have been one of the dumbest State Troopers the state has ever seen Papa4!
Posted by: Ohithere

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/13/13 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
You mean "you're" No I'm Ohithere
Secondly the ignorance was originally referenced to Bluezone
last but most importantly, try and stay on subject


By God, you must have been one of the dumbest State Troopers the state has ever seen Papa4!



Je n'ai plus rien a dire
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
Many companies, including my husband's, offer both. He has a pension and he participates in his companies 401(k) plan.


would you be able to provide a lengthy list of companies in this area that offer both a pension and a 401k to their employees?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 07:41 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
Many companies, including my husband's, offer both. He has a pension and he participates in his companies 401(k) plan.

would you be able to provide a lengthy list of companies in this area that offer both a pension and a 401k to their employees?

To what end?
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 10:17 AM

Easy only public employees still get pensions.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Easy only public employees still get pensions.

Backlash in 3... 2... 1...
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Easy only public employees still get pensions.


Sorry, tubby, but my husband will be collecting his 60% pension at the age of 55. He will probably keep working because he can collect it while he is working and sock that money away for retirement. He is a non-union employee locally.
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 07:16 PM

wow your lucky look at the stats only 5% of private sector workers still get pensions and that number goes down every year. Your a teacher you have no idea how the real world needs to save for retirement.
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 07:44 PM

Are you assuming that she has always been a teacher? Do you think that perhaps she may have done other things with her life besides teach?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 08:22 PM

For 15 years I worked in the private sector, but people will believe what they want to believe.

I love that I now make a difference every minute of every day instead of making tons of money every minute of every day. I'm ok with that.
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/12/13 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats

I love that I now make a difference every minute of every day instead of making tons of money every minute of every day. I'm ok with that.

Some people will never understand that. I also think that most of those who don't understand tend to reside on the right side of the aisle.
Posted by: mimi33

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/13/13 02:50 AM

This is really not an opinion just facts..some people are fortunate enough to work for a company that offers both a pension and a 401(K), or 403(b), or 457(k), a lot of times the employees don't even know it!!! Bluezone, I am a bit sorry that you didn't catch that particular brass ring, tough times. Get over it!!!!
Posted by: mimi33

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/13/13 02:55 AM

On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a shit about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck. But I believe that is our fault, and not thiers.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/18/13 07:07 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
For 15 years I worked in the private sector, but people will believe what they want to believe.

I love that I now make a difference every minute of every day instead of making tons of money every minute of every day. I'm ok with that.


Originally Posted By: twocats

I NEVER complained about my pay. Not once.

Ever. Not in public nor in private.


Ever.


Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: twocats
I am grateful every day. Very, very grateful.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I wasn't.


odd
you just posted this today
seems you are not grateful

Originally Posted By: twocats
There I am! That's me on that list. 15 years of teaching in the same district and just LOOK at that salary--wow!!


now tack on all YOUR benefits in total and see how much they amount to

triple or even quadruple of your pay


You're right; my sarcasm came out in response to your attacks. I apologize.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/18/13 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Sorry, tubby, but my husband will be collecting his 60% pension at the age of 55. He will probably keep working because he can collect it while he is working and sock that money away for retirement. He is a non-union employee locally.


why is he under your healthcare plan?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/18/13 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
This is really not an opinion just facts..some people are fortunate enough to work for a company that offers both a pension and a 401(K), or 403(b), or 457(k), a lot of times the employees don't even know it!!!


can you list these local companies that offer a pension and 401k?

just the facts...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/18/13 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a sh*t about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck.



the reason why student performance is low and school budgets are running out of money
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/19/13 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: tubby
Easy only public employees still get pensions.


Sorry, tubby, but my husband will be collecting his 60% pension at the age of 55. He will probably keep working because he can collect it while he is working and sock that money away for retirement. He is a non-union employee locally.


there are some 'flaws' in your logic
care to reveal them?
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/19/13 08:25 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a sh*t about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck.



the reason why student performance is low and school budgets are running out of money



Can you cite any sources to back up that claim?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/20/13 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a sh*t about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck.

the reason why student performance is low and school budgets are running out of money

Can you cite any sources to back up that claim?

> sound of crickets <
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/26/13 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Can you cite any sources to back up that claim?


what is the reason for the school merger talks?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/26/13 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
This is really not an opinion just facts..some people are fortunate enough to work for a company that offers both a pension and a 401(K), or 403(b), or 457(k), a lot of times the employees don't even know it!!!


and which local public companies offer a 403b and/or 457k?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/26/13 01:13 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
This is really not an opinion just facts..some people are fortunate enough to work for a company that offers both a pension and a 401(K), or 403(b), or 457(k), a lot of times the employees don't even know it!!!


and which local public companies offer a 403b and/or 457k?

Are you mentally capable of making an actual statement of fact, or are you only equipped to ask round-about questions as a way of insulating yourself from having to engage in a real debate?

Typical behavior from someone who's coming from a position of weakness.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/26/13 06:32 PM

are you confused by the post?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/26/13 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
are you confused by the post?

There's absolutely no confusing your attempts at deflecting criticism of your half-baked arguments, as you once again demonstrated with that question.
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/26/13 10:24 PM

All bluezone does is ask rhetorical questions. He rarely makes any statements.

For example, to this post he might respond: "What rhetorical questions do I make?"

And, that would be the extent to his debate.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/30/13 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
This is really not an opinion just facts..some people are fortunate enough to work for a company that offers both a pension and a 401(K), or 403(b), or 457(k), a lot of times the employees don't even know it!!!


and which local public companies offer a 403b and/or 457k?

Are you mentally capable of making an actual statement of fact, or are you only equipped to ask round-about questions as a way of insulating yourself from having to engage in a real debate?

Typical behavior from someone who's coming from a position of weakness.


name one local public company that offers either a 403b or a 457k
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/01/13 12:12 AM


Name all of those that don't.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/01/13 12:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a sh*t about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck.
the reason why student performance is low and school budgets are running out of money
Can you cite any sources to back up that claim?

Well, CAN you?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/30/13 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Originally Posted By: Dr. D
Originally Posted By: wow!

The only thing that can't really be explained is why our taxes remain so high while our student population just kepps getting smaller.



Easily explained uncontrollable/controllable costs, and your district's aren't alone.

Number 1 cost is Pension

Number 2 cost is Unfunded state mandates

Number 3 cost as Health Insurance: I just found out paying for retired workers family health care coverage (Waterloo cuts the insurance off as soon as you retire).

Number 4 cost is Salary: Why are raises set over 2% when yet again the larger districts to the north are at around 1%

Number 5 cost is unfunded students non-tuition paying


time to convert to a 401k
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/06/13 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


will that ruling have any effect on your pension?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/06/13 10:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: mimi33
On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a sh*t about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck.
the reason why student performance is low and school budgets are running out of money
Can you cite any sources to back up that claim?

Well, CAN you?

Still waiting...
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/06/13 12:21 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


will that ruling have any effect on your pension?


No...
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 12/12/13 08:29 PM

I guess the private market does pay pretty well....

He looks and sounds like many other young, highly qualified teachers.

Nathaniel Hannan, a 33-year-old Indiana native, went to Notre Dame and got his masters at Oxford in philosophy and geology before becoming a high school teacher in Washington, D.C. He loves to teach and has a gift for communicating.

But today, instead of working for a school, Hannan tutors the children of wealthy families. And he makes up to $1,250 an hour.

"It's different clients, but the same business," he said.

Actually, it's a different business entirely—and it's growing rapidly. While much of the American education system is struggling with tight budgets, overcrowded classrooms and low teacher pay, the tutor economy is booming.

Advertise

More of the world's millionaires and billionaires are seeking at-home teachers to give their children a leg up in the increasingly competitive and important education race. And, as the number of rich people grows around the world—and as more of them split their time between multiple homes in different countries—they are creating their own mobile, ultra-private schools in their homes.

Related: Hey millennials, we want to hear from you

Tutors International, a London-based tutor agency that hires and places many tutors in the U.S., said its business this year will nearly double over last year.

The typical salary for a full-time tutor today has jumped to between $70,000 and $120,000 depending on the requirements. But Tutors International has placed one tutor who is making $400,000 a year and another who was paid $80,000 for just 16 weeks of work.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/14 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
I guess the private market does pay pretty well....

But today, instead of working for a school, Hannan tutors the children of wealthy families. And he makes up to $1,250 an hour.


but are those positions guaranteed?

and who pays for the 'teachers' healthcare, pension, vacations, dental, vision, college tuition, paid summers off ...?

if a 'teacher' does not perform then they lose that job
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/03/14 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


will that ruling have any effect on your pension?


No...


is it true that a wayne county school will be running out of money shortly?
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/07/14 05:46 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


will that ruling have any effect on your pension?


No...


is it true that a wayne county school will be running out of money shortly?




the end of another failed liberal agenda that should open the floodgates all over the US.....

http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/06/detroit-emergency-manager-freezes-city-employee-pensions/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/07/14 09:07 AM

better tell 'fart in the wind' to convert to a 401k
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/21/14 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


will that ruling have any effect on your pension?


No...


why you got all your money in a tin can in the freezer?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 01/26/14 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
I guess the private market does pay pretty well....


The typical salary for a full-time tutor today has jumped to between $70,000 and $120,000 depending on the requirements.


so when you gonna quit your guaranteed part time 'job' and try the private market aka the real world?

or does full time greatly reduce your internet time?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/07/14 09:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


will that ruling have any effect on your pension?


No...


you going to sign up for obamacare and myra?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/17/14 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


clyde-savannah facing $726,000 budget shortfall

more to follow

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/18/14 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


clyde-savannah facing $726,000 budget shortfall

more to follow



Originally Posted By: newsman38
South Seneca schools facing a $300K budget gap

OVID — The South Seneca school board received an update on the 2014-15 budget situation at Wednesday night’s meeting.

Like many districts throughout the area, the district is facing a budget gap. Right now, the projected difference between revenues and expenditures is about $300,000.

“This is not particularly unusual for the middle of budget season, as there is still more work to be done before finalizing the budget,” South Seneca Superintendent Steve Zielinski said.

Under the state’s tax cap formula, South Seneca is permitted to raise taxes up to 2.6 percent. Anything more than that would require approval by a 60 percent “super” majority of district voters.

It was noted Wednesday night that 41 instructional positions have been eliminated districtwide in the past seven years. While Zielinski believes the school district is positioned to “last” at least another decade, the reductions are taking their toll.

“The program without the 41 positions is not the program it once was,” he said. “We continue to have great pride in the opportunities, education and service to the community we offer our students and families, but the [school board] will need to consider once again heading into 2014-15 if any adjustments in staffing need to be made.”

Posted: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 10:34 am
By ALAN BRIGNALL abrignall@fltimes.com
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/19/14 04:39 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?


Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


clyde-savannah facing $726,000 budget shortfall

more to follow



Originally Posted By: newsman38
South Seneca schools facing a $300K budget gap

OVID — The South Seneca school board received an update on the 2014-15 budget situation at Wednesday night’s meeting.

Like many districts throughout the area, the district is facing a budget gap. Right now, the projected difference between revenues and expenditures is about $300,000.

“This is not particularly unusual for the middle of budget season, as there is still more work to be done before finalizing the budget,” South Seneca Superintendent Steve Zielinski said.

Under the state’s tax cap formula, South Seneca is permitted to raise taxes up to 2.6 percent. Anything more than that would require approval by a 60 percent “super” majority of district voters.

It was noted Wednesday night that 41 instructional positions have been eliminated districtwide in the past seven years. While Zielinski believes the school district is positioned to “last” at least another decade, the reductions are taking their toll.

“The program without the 41 positions is not the program it once was,” he said. “We continue to have great pride in the opportunities, education and service to the community we offer our students and families, but the [school board] will need to consider once again heading into 2014-15 if any adjustments in staffing need to be made.”

Posted: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 10:34 am
By ALAN BRIGNALL abrignall@fltimes.com



the rulings in Detroit are just the beginning....more school districts, cities and states will have to reform these salaries,pensions and benefits or face the same fate.....but like in Detroit most public sector unions wont compromise and bankruptcy/closure is the only solution....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 02/19/14 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
but like in Detroit most public sector unions wont compromise and bankruptcy/closure is the only solution....


they will find out the hard way when their pensions/healthcare take drastic cuts

obamacare and MYra will be their next choice
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/23/14 01:43 PM

Quote:
Detroit bankruptcy ruling triggers calls for pension cuts across the US


more money for taxpayers to save for their own retirement
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 09:35 AM

Get set for some big-time pain in the classroom — and in the pocketbook: A bulletin from the New York State Teachers Retirement System suggests that taxpayers and students are in for a nasty one-two punch.
Schools, the retirement system recently announced, will have to fork over as much as 16.5 percent of their payrolls next year — a whopping 40 percent jump — to keep the pension fund sound.
That means less money for upstate and suburban students. (New York City runs its own pension system for teachers; its turn will come soon enough.)
And because some of the costs — as the Empire Center’s E.J. McMahon has noted — can be recouped through property-tax hikes (even above the state’s 2 percent cap), taxpayers will be hit hard, too.
REUTERS
State comptroller Thomas DiNapoli, a trustee of the state pension funds
Put it this way: It’s going to hurt.
And then, hurt some more.
“We recognize this rate has a significant impact on school-district budgets,” said the NYSTRS bulletin.
Uh, gee — ya think?
And it’s going to get worse, McMahon predicts: Just since 2009 alone, teachers’ pension costs have doubled.
Fueling the costs is a double-whammy of runaway benefit payments, growing an average 8 percent a year, and unrealistically rosy assumptions of investment returns — with taxpayers forced to cover any resulting shortfalls.
NYSTRS, you see, still uses the once (but no longer) standard figure of 8 percent to project its funds’ yearly growth. Yet since 2000, actual returns have averaged only 4.4 percent, McMahon reported. Last year, they came in at a paltry 2.8 percent.
Thus, gaps have been building for years.
Eventually, taxpayers (and students) pay.
And it’s not just teacher pensions squeezing budgets; public employees of every stripe, in the city and throughout the state, have won generous retirement packages for years. Those pricey perks are now helping to bankrupt local governments.
Yet the pols, who set pension terms, have done next to nothing to curb costs. This year, for example, Gov. Cuomo signed a wholly inadequate pension reform that won’t provide meaningful relief for years.
Why hasn’t Albany done more?
Consider a report last month by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, which ranks New York’s teachers unions ninth versus those in other states in terms of their grip on lawmakers.
Notably, the report found, “a full 63.5 percent” of school funds goes for teacher salaries and benefits — the highest percentage in America “by a considerable margin.”
New York’s pols, in other words, help make sure the unions — and their members — are well taken care of.
And to hell with everyone else.
Which explains why teacher wages and benefits remain high, and pension costs are out of control.

Teacher pension contribution to jump again
Posted November 16th, 2012
The New York State Teachers’ Retirement System last week notified public school administrators to expected another significant increase in pension costs next year, according to a memorandum obtained this week by The Observer.
To fund teacher pensions in New York, public school systems are required by law to contribute a percentage of payrolls to the state Teacher Retirement System (TRS). The Employer Contribution Rate (ECR) has skyrocketed over the past three years to 6.19% in 2009-2010, 8.62% in 2010-211, 11.11% in 2011-2012 and 11.84% this school years, money due to be paid in September, October and November 2013.
An October 25 memo from the TRS to school officials says, “Based on preliminary estimates, we anticipate the ECR for the next year to be between 15.5% and 16.5% of member payroll. This rate will apply to the fiscal year 2013-2014 TRS member salaries and will be collected in the fall of 2014.”
The TRS anticipates that there will be future increases in the TRC contribution rate, the amount of which has not yet been projected. “The magnitude of the increase will depend upon future investment performance and member demographics,” says the memo. “While our primary goal is to ensure the plan is properly funded, we recognize this rate has a significant impact on school district budgets. Our notices are sent as early as possible for planning and budgeting purposes.”
In the past 35 years the highest the contribution rate has been was 23.49% for three consecutive school years from 1980-81 to 1982-83.
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 01:26 PM

This is from your previous post.
Quote:
The Employer Contribution Rate (ECR) has skyrocketed over the past three years to 6.19% in 2009-2010, 8.62% in 2010-211, 11.11% in 2011-2012 and 11.84% this school years, money due to be paid in September, October and November 2013.


Do you see where it reads 11.11% in 2011-2012? Do you understand that you are verifying
Quote:
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?

And not the 100 percent paid by taxpayers that you constantly harp about?

The only other conclusion is that you really do not understand any of what you post beyond headline retorts.

Or is it that you are nothing more than a pathetic troll? Keep chasing your tail.

http://www.pionline.com/article/20140131...te-equity-funds

For Tubby from another thread.

You can still get a job with a pension
Rumors of the demise of the pension are only slightly exaggerated

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/you-can-still-get-a-job-with-a-pension-2013-11-13
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 01:32 PM

Quote:
Notably, the report found, “a full 63.5 percent” of school funds goes for teacher salaries and benefits — the highest percentage in America “by a considerable margin.”
New York’s pols, in other words, help make sure the unions — and their members — are well taken care of.
And to hell with everyone else.
Which explains why teacher wages and benefits remain high, and pension costs are out of control.
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 01:33 PM


Troll worksheet

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 01:39 PM


Quote:
Worksheet # 1. How much will my investment be worth?

Interest 7.00
Number of periods 30
Amount of each investment $1,200.00
Total payments $36,000.00
Total interest $77,352.94
Total value of investment $113,352.94


your small contribution to your pension does not even pay for 2.5 years when you retire at age 55

guess who picks up the remaining years of your retirement for your pension payouts?

taxpayers...

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 03:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind

Troll worksheet


You have to round-up somewhere. wink
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years



and guess who picks up the rest?
Posted by: twocats

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
This is from your previous post.
Quote:
The Employer Contribution Rate (ECR) has skyrocketed over the past three years to 6.19% in 2009-2010, 8.62% in 2010-211, 11.11% in 2011-2012 and 11.84% this school years, money due to be paid in September, October and November 2013.


Do you see where it reads 11.11% in 2011-2012? Do you understand that you are verifying
Quote:
Did You Know...
About 90% of funds used to pay NYSTRS benefits come from investment returns and employee contributions?

And not the 100 percent paid by taxpayers that you constantly harp about?

The only other conclusion is that you really do not understand any of what you post beyond headline retorts.

Or is it that you are nothing more than a pathetic troll? Keep chasing your tail.

http://www.pionline.com/article/20140131...te-equity-funds

For Tubby from another thread.

You can still get a job with a pension
Rumors of the demise of the pension are only slightly exaggerated

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/you-can-still-get-a-job-with-a-pension-2013-11-13


My husband will collect his pension at age 55 while he still works.
He does not, in any way, work for a government agency.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
My husband will collect his pension at age 55 while he still works.
He does not, in any way, work for a government agency.


does his company mainly survive off government contracts?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
IBM, Canandaigua Wine, Kodak, Xerox, First Niagara, Five Star, Community Bank, Guardian Glass, Seneca Foods, Zoto's etc. NO pension.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
New employee at ITT NO pension
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/24/14 05:55 PM

Check the pension at Goulds for new employee's it's almost nonexistent it doesn't come close to a teachers. I also know numerous retirees from Goulds and their pensions were not nearly as good as government employees.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
ITT--Sorry, it's the only one I know. I don't routinely ask friends and family members about their salary and/or pensions.

pension of 1 3/4% per year of employment PLUS matching 401k above 10%.


elimiante the pensions
convert the 'teachers' to a 401k and only match above 10%

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 01:02 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: tubby
IBM, Canandaigua Wine, Kodak, Xerox, First Niagara, Five Star, Community Bank, Guardian Glass, Seneca Foods, Zoto's etc. NO pension.

And is that in any way, shape or form, a GOOD thing?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: tubby
IBM, Canandaigua Wine, Kodak, Xerox, First Niagara, Five Star, Community Bank, Guardian Glass, Seneca Foods, Zoto's etc. NO pension.

And is that in any way, shape or form, a GOOD thing?


The list is not accurrate. Xerox and Kodak workers have pensions. Kodak pensions were in the news last year. IBM workers prior to 2006 had pensions.

Do some research and you will find 30 percent of private corporations still have pension plans.
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 01:23 PM

Many companies USED to have pensions now it is basically down to government jobs.
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
Notably, the report found, “a full 63.5 percent” of school funds goes for teacher salaries and benefits — the highest percentage in America “by a considerable margin.”
New York’s pols, in other words, help make sure the unions — and their members — are well taken care of.
And to hell with everyone else.
Which explains why teacher wages and benefits remain high, and pension costs are out of control.


Employee salaries are always going to be the largest expenditure for any non profit organization. The wording in the above excerpt is full of hyperbole,conjecture and sensationalized conclusions. Pathetic that some are unable to think for themselves and are easily duped, you are the sheep in this nation.

You are permantly relegated to ignore user status
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 01:31 PM

You can still get a job with a pension
Rumors of the demise of the pension are only slightly exaggerated
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/you-can-still-get-a-job-with-a-pension-2013-11-13

Some 30% of companies surveyed by professional services company Towers Watson this year said they still offer pension plans to new hires
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/25/14 01:34 PM

Down to about 15% of private companies good luck finding a job with a pension outside of the local, state or federal government ones.
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 06:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: tubby
IBM, Canandaigua Wine, Kodak, Xerox, First Niagara, Five Star, Community Bank, Guardian Glass, Seneca Foods, Zoto's etc. NO pension.

And is that in any way, shape or form, a GOOD thing?


The list is not accurrate. Xerox and Kodak workers have pensions. Kodak pensions were in the news last year. IBM workers prior to 2006 had pensions.

Do some research and you will find 30 percent of private corporations still have pension plans.



here's what Kodak did to their pensions.....if that's what you can now call them....

http://business.time.com/2013/04/30/koda...ension-funding/
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
You can still get a job with a pension
Rumors of the demise of the pension are only slightly exaggerated
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/you-can-still-get-a-job-with-a-pension-2013-11-13

Some 30% of companies surveyed by professional services company Towers Watson this year said they still offer pension plans to new hires



not sure about 30%, certainly debateable......article from a few years back.....

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2009-05-21-traditional-pensions-dying_N.htm


second link shows that 500 companies surveyed, only 338 with a "defined pension".....of those only 18 are fully funded....not a rosey picture!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/busine...-companies.html
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
The list is not accurrate. Xerox and Kodak workers have pensions. Kodak pensions were in the news last year.

kodak eliminated their healthcare coverage for retired employees
time the eliminate the healthcare coverage for the retired 'teachers'
remember it is all about the students 'teachers'
how does paying healthcare after retirement help the students?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
IBM workers prior to 2006 had pensions.


pay back all the money that was paid out from 2006 until now
eliminate the 'teachers' pensions
convert to a 401k like everyone else
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
The list is not accurrate.

Do some research and you will find 30 percent of private corporations still have pension plans.


you and your 'peanut gallery' have been asked numerous times to supply the list of area companies that offer them but no such list has ever been presented

post that lengthy list of area companies that offer it
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Notably, the report found, “a full 63.5 percent” of school funds goes for teacher salaries and benefits — the highest percentage in America “by a considerable margin.”
New York’s pols, in other words, help make sure the unions — and their members — are well taken care of.
And to hell with everyone else.
Which explains why teacher wages and benefits remain high, and pension costs are out of control.
Employee salaries are always going to be the largest expenditure for any non profit organization.

so tell us how much goes directly to pensions and healthcare for current and retired 'teachers'?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 08:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Originally Posted By: tubby
IBM, Canandaigua Wine, Kodak, Xerox, First Niagara, Five Star, Community Bank, Guardian Glass, Seneca Foods, Zoto's etc. NO pension.
The list is not accurrate. Xerox and Kodak workers have pensions. Kodak pensions were in the news last year. IBM workers prior to 2006 had pensions.
Do some research and you will find 30 percent of private corporations still have pension plans.


'the list is not accurate'
there are 10 companies listed and only one offers a pension or only 10% and not 30% like you state

there is no other company in this area that offers 70%-90% of final pay for the employee pensions
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 11:24 AM


You seem to be suggesting that the solution should be to eliminate worker pensions across-the-board in some ideologically flawed notion of socialized labor reimbursement parity, rather than to be sure that pensions are secured or protected in the first place from being raided by greedy share holders, senior officers and gross institutional mismanagement, etc..

Is that about right?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
rather than to be sure that pensions are secured or protected in the first place from being raided by greedy share holders, senior officers and gross institutional mismanagement, etc..


school taxes are paid by taxpayers
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
The list is not accurrate.

Do some research and you will find 30 percent of private corporations still have pension plans.

you and your 'peanut gallery' have been asked numerous times to supply the list of area companies that offer them but no such list has ever been presented

post that lengthy list of area companies that offer it

Rather audacious of you, don't you think, considering that you're lucky to answer even one out of a hundred questions that are asked of YOU?

Especially when you have the nerve to be so uppity and self-righteous in the process.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 11:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Rather


but we thought you had ALL the answers?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Rather

but we thought you had ALL the answer?

See, a perfect example. You dodge the argument by turning it to someone (or something) else. Even if you have to invent an argument that doesn't exist.

What prevents you from answering any questions, are you afraid that you may have to accept some new ideas?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
rather than to be sure that pensions are secured or protected in the first place from being raided by greedy share holders, senior officers and gross institutional mismanagement, etc..

school taxes are paid by taxpayers

What difference does it make whose footing the bill in those instances?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:00 PM


There... I've just asked three questions of you. Can you now at least try to back up some of you BS, with some direct and thoughtful responses?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
What difference does it make whose footing the bill in those instances?


so you are saying that taxpayers should not be able to question where their school taxes go to?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:05 PM


Answer my questions.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

There... I've just asked three questions of you. Can you now at least try to back up some of you BS, with some direct and thoughtful responses?


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
rather than to be sure that pensions are secured or protected in the first place from being raided by greedy share holders, senior officers and gross institutional mismanagement, etc..

school taxes are paid by taxpayers

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:11 PM


You own a lot of cats, don't you? wink
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Answer my questions.


you have no valid ones
yawn...
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:18 PM


Dodging again, I see.

You seem to be truly pathological, by every clinical definition of the word.

I feel very sorry for you.
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What difference does it make whose footing the bill in those instances?


so you are saying that taxpayers should not be able to question where their school taxes go to?



obviously not BZ......just dare and question any member of govt. at any level.....they immediately put the walls up....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

What difference does it make whose footing the bill in those instances?


open up your purse and pay the difference
you are nothing but talk
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
What difference does it make whose footing the bill in those instances?
so you are saying that taxpayers should not be able to question where their school taxes go to?

obviously not BZ......just dare and question any member of govt. at any level.....they immediately put the walls up....


timbo likes 'to walk in circles'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Dodging again, I see.


read thru the posts on this thread
your answers should be there
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:36 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

What difference does it make whose footing the bill in those instances?

open up your purse and pay the difference

Perhaps YOU should open up your eyes and wake up to the fact that the issue isn't (and never has been) good paying jobs with excellent benefits. The issue is that for over 50 years, corporations, politicians and share holders have been raiding the working class.

Such excellent benefits packages were the norm and were completely self-sustaining from the late forties well into the mid to late sixties.

Or does the history of US Labor Economics account for nothing?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Such excellent benefits packages were completely self-sustainable from the mid forties well into the mid sixties.


hummm
20 years
must be after 20 years the money had to be paid out

obamacare will cure part of it
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Or does the history of US Labor Economics account for nothing?


20 years is 'history'
nice try
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
You seem to be truly pathological, by every clinical definition of the word.


pathetic is taking money from students for ones retirement
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Such excellent benefits packages were completely self-sustaining from the mid forties well into the mid sixties.

hummm
20 years
must be after 20 years the money had to be paid out

Do you understand the term "self-sustaining"?

Pick up a dictionary... or better yet, a history book.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 01:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you understand the term "self-sustainable"?


it can not be self sustainable if the taxpayers have to constantly fund it to keep it afloat

convert to a 401k
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 01:00 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
You seem to be truly pathological, by every clinical definition of the word.

pathetic is taking money from students for ones retirement

Then write a letter to your Republican representatives who voted to defund education in favor of one $trillion in tax cuts for the wealthy, runaway defense spending, doubling congressional pay raises and retirement pensions, tripling corporate subsidies and deregulating overseas tax havens.

Because that's where the bulk of the money's been going for all that time.

What's also pathetic, is to continually reelect the ones who are committing these acts, while simultaneously wanking about the obvious side effects of doing so.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 01:04 PM

Quote:
Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner proposes no tax hike in city budget
Post-Standard

Syracuse, N.Y. -- Despite her many warnings about looming insolvency, Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner today proposed a $662 million city budget that increases spending 7.1 percent, requires no tax increase and even adds 21 jobs to the non-school payroll.
To be sure, there is some pain in the spending plan. The school district’s proposed budget, which represents 55 percent of city spending, calls for about 150 job cuts and a school closing. Miner said she plans to accept the district budget without changes.
A one-shot infusion of $21 million in state aid has allowed the city to avoid harsh cuts in this budget, Miner said. But the crisis still awaits, she said.
“We have escaped that for one year,” Miner said. “What that does is buy us another year to try to come together to try to find a solution.”
The mayor proposed a city budget that increases non-school spending 4.3 percent. Miner, who took over as mayor two years ago, said in an interview that she has cut operating costs, but in the long run Syracuse cannot avoid a fiscal meltdown without increased help from New York state.
“The idea that we could cut more I don’t think is a realistic idea, unless we start to cut services,” Miner said. “We are at the very bone.”
Miner said she will support the $366 million school district budget proposed by Superintendent Sharon Contreras, which calls for a spending increase of 9.5 percent, the elimination of about 150 jobs and closing Elmwood Elementary School. The school board is scheduled to vote on its budget April 18.
Miner’s non-school budget represents a spending increase of $12.3 million, but she has sought neither a tax hike nor an increase in water rates or other fees. The budget also does not require spending any of the city’s rainy day fund.
In the meeting, the mayor talked about the upcoming epidemic facing cities in New York State with the skyrocketing pension costs fueling the epidemic. The mayor stated in the last 10 years the city has seen pension costs rise 580%. Video by Mike Greenlar Watch video
The boost in aid gives the city a year of breathing room to resolve underlying fiscal problems, Miner said. Although there are further steps the city can take to cut costs — including changes in health care benefits — Syracuse and other cities will need help from the state if they are to withstand the pressure of rising pension costs, she said.
The city’s pension bill has spiked from $2 million a decade ago to $30 million next year, Miner said, with no relief in sight.
Besides pensions, one of the biggest burdens for the city is its generous employee health-care plan, which is projected to cost $44 million next year. Historically, employees have contributed little to the cost, but Miner’s budget takes the first step in trying to change that.
For the 161 city employees not covered by union contracts, Miner has proposed a sharp increase in health premiums, with a five-tiered sliding scale based on salary.
The lowest-paid workers, earning $42,000 or less, will increase their payments next year from $180 to $315 a year for individual coverage, and from $360 to $834 for family coverage.
Employees making $100,000 or more, including Miner, will increase their payments from $180 to $790 for individual plans and from $360 to $2,085 for family plans.
In the year beginning July 2013, employee payments for all tiers will increase again to more than double next year’s rates. The change will save the city about $230,000 a year after the second year, but the real impact will come if Miner can persuade the city’s unions to adopt similar payments.
That may be difficult to do. The city held contract talks with each of the city’s unions last year, but succeeded in negotiating higher health-care premiums only with the firefighters’ unions. While health-care payments for other employees stayed the same, firefighters agreed to pay just $180 a year more.
Even that is a far cry from the increases Miner would impose on non-union workers.
“This is a learning process,” Miner said. “You can say to people, ‘there’s a crisis coming, let’s solve it.’ But until they feel the heat of that crisis, they won’t.”
Miner said she remains optimistic about negotiating higher health-care payments from the unions as the financial crisis spreads to more and more cities.
For this year, however, Syracuse is in much better shape than Miner expected. She had drawn up a far harsher budget until the state aid spin-up was announced.
If it passes as is, the 2012-2013 city budget would be the first in five years not to use rainy-day savings to cover a gap in revenues. Since 2008, Syracuse has burned through roughly $36 million of its fund balance to pay the bills.
The rainy day fund, which is expected to hold $32 million as of June, will not be needed to balance next year’s budget, Miner said. But structural deficits are likely to return the following year, she said.
Miner has recruited a three-person panel of experts to advise the city on financial matters. Today she named two of the three members: Bob Wilmers, chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, and Marc Shaw, senior vice chancellor of City University of New York.
Miner announced in January that the advisory board would be chaired by former Lt. Gov. Richard Ravitch. All three members are expected to visit Syracuse this month.

A pension problem
Rising pension costs are pushing Syracuse toward insolvency. Here’s how pension costs have increased over seven years:
In millions of dollars
2006-07: $12.3
2007-08: $14.5
2008-09: $15.3
2009-10: $14.3
2010-11: $19.7
2011-12: $21.1
2012-13: $30.1 *
* projected
Source: City of Syracuse


thought that the teachers posting here said they pay all the money into their pensions....hummmm



she also stated on capital tonight that when the money is not there then a control board will step in and the unions will have to open the contracts and major cuts will be made
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 01:48 PM

Quote:
just dare and question any member of govt. at any level.....they immediately put the walls up....


More like a moving target.

A moving target in this thread is when you ask a question or establish a false premise, your question is answered or your false premise is shown not to be true; you then 'move the target' and set another expectation. This means that the person you have the expectation of is never able to reach the target.

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 03:02 PM


Yep!

And they know perfectly well, that they're doing exactly that.

Never underestimate the propensity of ignorant people to repeatedly act against their own self-interests.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/26/14 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you understand the term "self-sustainable"?

it can not be self sustainable if the taxpayers have to constantly fund it to keep it afloat

convert to a 401k

The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).

Why are you so willing and eager to allow corporations et al to continue screwing the the American workers???

401ks are lousy retirement programs when compared to properly run (and funded) pension plans. They always have been.

Republican (mostly) deregulation is what got us onto this mess in the first place.
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you understand the term "self-sustainable"?


it can not be self sustainable if the taxpayers have to constantly fund it to keep it afloat

convert to a 401k



the liberals in these blue states and cities will understand when the bankruptcy's start piling up......Detroit was just the beginning(and look whats happening to public pensionars there).....when they start collecting pennies on the dollar for pensions and little or no healthcare benefits then and only then will they understand "self sustaining".


http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org/publ...ion-funding-gap

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140325/METRO01/303250106

http://www.freep.com/article/99999999/NEWS01/90820081/Investigating-Detroit-s-public-pension-boards


California, Illinois, New Jersey and New York.....


http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org/publ...ements?f=puball

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).



you have never run a business so you have no clue

aka 'professional kayak sales person'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Why are you so willing and eager to allow corporations et al to continue screwing the the American workers???


a school is a 'corporation'?

that is how the greedy 'teachers' see it

nice try
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Detroit was just the beginning(and look whats happening to public pensionars there).....when they start collecting pennies on the dollar for pensions and little or no healthcare benefits then and only then will they understand "self sustaining".


the 'teachers' will have obamacare...

whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 07:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
401ks are lousy retirement programs when compared to properly run (and funded) pension plans. They always have been.


and obamas solution was?

a MYra...

laugh
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 01:01 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).

you have never run a business so you have no clue

Not only do you continue to make assumptions, you spew stupefyingly incorrect ones.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Why are you so willing and eager to allow corporations et al to continue screwing the the American workers???

a school is a 'corporation'?

No, but they definitely are "et al".

Go read a book, for Chist's sake.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 01:11 PM

Originally Posted By: SportsRef1
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you understand the term "self-sustainable"?

it can not be self sustainable if the taxpayers have to constantly fund it to keep it afloat

convert to a 401k

the liberals in these blue states and cities will understand when the bankruptcy's start piling up......Detroit was just the beginning(and look whats happening to public pensionars there).....when they start collecting pennies on the dollar for pensions and little or no healthcare benefits then and only then will they understand "self sustaining".
http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org/publ...ion-funding-gap
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140325/METRO01/303250106
http://www.freep.com/article/99999999/NEWS01/90820081/Investigating-Detroit-s-public-pension-boards

California, Illinois, New Jersey and New York.....
http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org/publ...ements?f=puball

You're conclusions are completely erroneous.

What you're talking about would amount to revenues only in the millions of $s. What I'm referencing, amounts to Trillions of $s.

Did I not specifically use the term "properly run (and funded) pension plans"? ? ?

There is absolutely no reason, why intelligently invested pensions can not and will not be self-sustaining. It's Economics 101. What you're trying to do, is to suck the money (pennies) from the victims of these shell games, rather than going after the actual game runners (dollars).

Why are you so willing to do the bidding of the ones that are screwing YOU over?
Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/27/14 02:39 PM

ignoring this user
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/28/14 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
. What you're trying to do, is to suck the money (pennies) from the victims of these shell games, rather than going after the actual game runners (dollars).


What you're trying to do, is to suck the money from the victims taxpayers of these shell games, rather than going after the actual game runners 'teachers' pensions
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/28/14 03:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Go read a book


has 'the world according to timbo' been released yet?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/28/14 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).

you have never run a business so you have no clue

Not only do you continue to make assumptions, you spew stupefyingly incorrect ones.


and what were the terms of your pension plan you offered your employees?

did you also offer them life time healthcare?

or retirement at age 55?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/28/14 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
You're conclusions are completely erroneous.

What you're talking about would amount to revenues only in the millions of $s. What I'm referencing, amounts to Trillions of $s.

Did I not specifically use the term "properly run (and funded) pension plans"? ? ?

There is absolutely no reason, why intelligently invested pensions can not and will not be self-sustaining. It's Economics 101. What you're trying to do, is to suck the money (pennies) from the victims of these shell games, rather than going after the actual game runners (dollars).

Why are you so willing to do the bidding of the ones that are screwing YOU over?

What you're trying to do, is to suck the money from the victims taxpayers of these shell games, rather than going after the actual game runners 'teachers' pensions

Respectfully, you're an idget.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/28/14 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Go read a book

has 'the world according to timbo' been released yet?

You should be so lucky! cool
Posted by: SportsRef1

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 03/29/14 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Go read a book

has 'the world according to timbo' been released yet?

You should be so lucky! cool



Chapter 1 and 2 would be Obama......
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/24/14 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).

you have never run a business so you have no clue

Not only do you continue to make assumptions, you spew stupefyingly incorrect ones.


and what were the terms of your pension plan you offered your employees?

did you also offer them life time healthcare?

or retirement at age 55?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 02:39 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).
you have never run a business so you have no clue
Not only do you continue to make assumptions, you spew stupefyingly incorrect ones.
and what were the terms of your pension plan you offered your employees?

did you also offer them life time healthcare?

or retirement at age 55?

Quick!... Dodge another one! grin
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).
you have never run a business so you have no clue
Not only do you continue to make assumptions, you spew stupefyingly incorrect ones.
and what were the terms of your pension plan you offered your employees?

did you also offer them life time healthcare?

or retirement at age 55?

Quick!... Dodge another one! grin


so explain why you did not offer it to your employees?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The point is, it easily CAN be self-sustaining (as it once was).
you have never run a business so you have no clue
Not only do you continue to make assumptions, you spew stupefyingly incorrect ones.
and what were the terms of your pension plan you offered your employees?

did you also offer them life time healthcare?

or retirement at age 55?
Quick!... Dodge another one! grin
so explain why you did not offer it to your employees?

Because, I paid my freelancers FAR more money than most any teacher makes. whistle

Do you have any more "smart" question?

Perhaps we should do the same for teachers. If they were paid as much as most other professions that require the same degree of education and ongoing standards training, they could likely afford their own benefits, etc..
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 01:27 PM

Pretty hard for a freelancer to save this much money in a 401K, check out these awesome pensions http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Pretty hard for a freelancer to save this much money in a 401K, check out these awesome pensions http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york

Zoom! Right over your head.

If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.

Obviously, you are totally uninformed about the nature of freelance employment and the related industries that rely on that business model, which is plainly illustrated by the ability of well-paid freelancers to afford precisely that, assuming that they invest responsibly.

I'm not suggesting that teachers be treated as freelancers, quite the opposite. But the principle applies, just the same.
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 03:49 PM

Wrong again, how many of your imaginary employees saved over $2,000,000 for their retirement? Again you must not understand what a 401K is, an individual can invest in whatever they want and they contribute their own money. A teachers pension is in addition to what they contribute to their 401K. The free healthcare they receive for life is also in addition to their pension.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Wrong again, how many of your imaginary employees saved over $2,000,000 for their retirement? Again you must not understand what a 401K is, an individual can invest in whatever they want and they contribute their own money. A teachers pension is in addition to what they contribute to their 401K. The free healthcare they receive for life is also in addition to their pension.

If they're imaginary, I guess there's no point in responding to your question. wink
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 06:49 PM

Good comeback.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/25/14 08:38 PM


Not really, but it's all you deserve. grin
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 04/26/14 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, I paid my freelancers FAR more money than most any teacher makes.


and about how much was that?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/03/14 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Wrong again, how many of your imaginary employees saved over $2,000,000 for their retirement? Again you must not understand what a 401K is, an individual can invest in whatever they want and they contribute their own money. A teachers pension is in addition to what they contribute to their 401K. The free healthcare they receive for life is also in addition to their pension.

If they're imaginary, I guess there's no point in responding to your question. wink


the old back pedal routine by timbo...

yawn
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/30/14 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, I paid my freelancers FAR more money than most any teacher makes.


of course you paid them more
they worked 12 months and not 7
you did not give your employees any benefits so they had to pay out of their pocket for health, dental, vision, pension, retirement, sick time...

in the end you actually paid them far less
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 05/30/14 06:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, I paid my freelancers FAR more money than most any teacher makes.


you say you PAID them...rather then PAY

does that mean your 'company' has closed down?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/11/14 08:36 AM

Originally Posted By: mimi33
On the other hand, do I believe there is wiggle room on their contracts? Hell yes..do I believe that those that have been there long enough to get "tenure" don't give a sh*t about the community? Yes, I believe that...do I believe that most teachers are only in it for the summers off and great retirement? Yes I totally believe that. Teachers, in my opinion, sort of suck.


Originally Posted By: newsman38
New York Post

A stunning decision by a California judge tossing the state’s teacher-tenure protection laws Tuesday sent parents here scrambling to overturn New York’s laws as well.
“The California ruling sets a precedent. We want to file the same lawsuit here in New York,” declared Mona Davids of the NYC Parents Union, vowing to line up students and guardians as plaintiffs.

“For too long, children have been condemned to schools with low-performing teachers protected by the teachers union.”

Jenny Sedlis, of StudentsFirstNY, which advocates stricter teacher accountability, said the judge “declared unconstitutional many of the same policies — automatic tenure, LIFO [last-in first-out seniority], and outdated protections of ineffective teachers — that are hurting low-income and minority students across our state.”

The decision caused a nationwide political earthquake and provoked a favorable response from the Obama administration.

“The students who brought this lawsuit are, unfortunately, just nine out of millions of young people in America who are disadvantaged by laws, practices and systems that fail to identify and support our best teachers and match them with our neediest students,” said US Education Secretary Arne Duncan.

“Today’s court decision is a mandate to fix these problems,” he added.


wonder which 'teach'ers are worried?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/19/14 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, I paid my freelancers FAR more money than most any teacher makes.


of course you paid them more cuz they worked 12 months and you did not offer them a 'permanent lifetime' job or any benefits
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/19/14 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.


and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/19/14 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.

and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?

When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/20/14 07:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.

and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?

When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?


considering you said you paid your employees three times more then that would mean you were paying your employees well over a $100/hr
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/20/14 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Quote:
In a free market you are not taxed if you don't buy the product

What?????? How much property and school taxes do we all pay every year on homes that many were paid off years ago but must still shell out monies anyways ? Not to mention older home owners paying school taxes although their kids graduated years ago as well.


but we thought you enjoyed paying for the 'teachers' lifetime healthcare, full pension, part time hours, tenure...
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/20/14 10:55 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?
When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?
considering you said you paid your employees three times more then that would mean you were paying your employees well over a $100/hr

You're not too sharp, are you?

If you think teachers in the mid 80s were being paid an average of anything even approaching $33 an hour, you're insane. But I was regularly paying my freelancers $80 an hour, and up.

Nowadays, freelancers in my field, can earn upwards of $200 - $300 an hour (and higher).

Maybe you should have stayed in school. Perhasps then you wouldn't be so obstinately ignorant of the way the rest of the working industries function.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/23/14 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?
When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?
considering you said you paid your employees three times more then that would mean you were paying your employees well over a $100/hr

You're not too sharp, are you?

If you think teachers in the mid 80s were being paid an average of anything even approaching $33 an hour, you're insane.


since when does a 'teacher' work show up to the school building for 12 months straight?
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/23/14 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?
When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?
considering you said you paid your employees three times more then that would mean you were paying your employees well over a $100/hr

You're not too sharp, are you?

If you think teachers in the mid 80s were being paid an average of anything even approaching $33 an hour, you're insane.


since when does a 'teacher' work show up to the school building for 12 months straight?

Since when does a teacher's work day even approach being finished once the last class of the day is dismissed?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/23/14 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Since when does a teacher's work day even approach being finished once the last class of the day is dismissed?


so what do they do during their summer off?
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/23/14 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Since when does a teacher's work day even approach being finished once the last class of the day is dismissed?


so what do they do during their summer off?

I don't know? Why don't you ask them?

Why would it matter if they're compacting 12 months of work into 9 or 10 months?

You're full of questions, but come up short on supplying answers.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/24/14 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Since when does a teacher's work day even approach being finished once the last class of the day is dismissed?


so what do they do during their summer off?

I don't know?


you made the claim they 'work' after class is finished but now you are backtracking
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/24/14 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?
When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?
considering you said you paid your employees three times more then that would mean you were paying your employees well over a $100/hr

You're not too sharp, are you?

If you think teachers in the mid 80s were being paid an average of anything even approaching $33 an hour, you're insane. But I was regularly paying my freelancers $80 an hour, and up.


you say you were paying your 'employees' $80 per hour in the 80's
but yet you refused to give them a pension or healthcare back when it is common
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/24/14 05:12 PM

Since you can't seem to keep things straight, below is your questions and my replies.

Originally Posted By: bluezone

so what do they do during their summer off?

Originally Posted By: Josephus

I don't know?

Originally Posted By: bluezone

you made the claim they 'work' after class is finished but now you are backtracking


No... you clearly asked what they do during their summers off.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/24/14 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: bluezone
since when does a 'teacher' work show up to the school building for 12 months straight?
Since when does a teacher's work day even approach being finished once the last class of the day is dismissed?


(the above was the prior post you replied to)

Incorrect... a frequency for you, btw.

Class finishes usually between 2:30 and 3:00 pm. School ENDS in this part of the country in mid to late June.

However, you asked me what they do during the summer... not after class. [/quote]

it was in reference to a 12 month 'work' cycle
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/24/14 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


(the above was the prior post you replied to)


Since you can't seem to keep things straight, below is your questions and my replies.

Originally Posted By: bluezone

so what do they do during their summer off?

Originally Posted By: Josephus

I don't know?

Originally Posted By: bluezone

you made the claim they 'work' after class is finished but now you are backtracking


No... you clearly just asked what they do during their summers off. I replied that I don't know, and suggested that you ask them.

I then played along and gave you a list of some of the things teachers do after class.

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/24/14 10:37 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?
When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour. Add to that 75%-100% employer-paid medical, dental and optical (often standard at the time), then expect to be making roughly twice that with a four year degree OR 10 years of experience. Oh yeah, don't forget pension benefits.

Simple enough, right?
considering you said you paid your employees three times more then that would mean you were paying your employees well over a $100/hr

You're not too sharp, are you?

If you think teachers in the mid 80s were being paid an average of anything even approaching $33 an hour, you're insane. But I was regularly paying my freelancers $80 an hour, and up.

you say you were paying your 'employees' $80 per hour in the 80's
but yet you refused to give them a pension or healthcare back when it is common

No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees. The working word is "freelancer". Perhaps you would benefit from knowing something about that of which you yammer on about.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/25/14 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: bluezone


(the above was the prior post you replied to)


Since you can't seem to keep things straight, below is your questions and my replies.

Originally Posted By: bluezone

so what do they do during their summer off?

Originally Posted By: Josephus

I don't know?

Originally Posted By: bluezone

you made the claim they 'work' after class is finished but now you are backtracking


No... you clearly just asked what they do during their summers off. I replied that I don't know, and suggested that you ask them.


go back and read your post
you are incorrect
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/25/14 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.


so you never had any employees ?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/25/14 08:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.


is a 'teachers' penion not a taxpayer reliant program that should be eliminated?
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/25/14 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.


so you never had any employees ?
It's hard to have employees when you never had a business to begin with.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/25/14 10:14 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.
so you never had any employees ?

What is it about the word "freelancer" that has your pointy little head tied into such a tight little knot, eh, Schlitzie?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/27/14 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.


so you never had any employees ?
It's hard to have employees when you never had a business to begin with.


true
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/27/14 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.
so you never had any employees ?

What is it about the word "freelancer" that has your pointy little head tied into such a tight little knot, eh, Schlitzie?


then why did you even bring it up that you did not provide a pension to your 'people' but paid them 3 times more than a 'teacher'?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/27/14 07:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.


is a 'teachers' penion not a taxpayer reliant program that should be eliminated?

convert to a 401k
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 06/27/14 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
and what would you consider a 'proper wage' for an employee working 12 months?
When compared to wages in 1970, minimum wage today (after adjusting for inflation , etc.) would equal roughly $21 per hour.


then the 'teachers' do not need a taxpayer funded pension as they are making more than $21 per hour

let them fund their own 401k
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/09/14 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.


make the 'teachers' pay for their own obamacare
you support obamacare...
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/09/14 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.
so you never had any employees ?
What is it about the word "freelancer" that has your pointy little head tied into such a tight little knot, eh, Schlitzie?
then why did you even bring it up that you did not provide a pension to your 'people' but paid them 3 times more than a 'teacher'?

< sigh >

Because, you moron... they were FREELANCERS. Got It???
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/09/14 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.

is a 'teachers' penion not a taxpayer reliant program that should be eliminated?

convert to a 401k

401ks are lousy investments both in terms of risk and returns, when compared to other programs that would become available if people could afford to invest in them.

Educator's pensions are part of the guaranteed benefits packages, that American academia demanded as a way to prevent educators from once again being fired in vast numbers, for teaching long-established political, socio-economic, scientific and historical facts, which may be a threat to the power of the rich and politically well-connected. No other line of work has the same risks or well-established history to confirm the need for such strong contracts. Other Labor Unions have been established to meet the needs of their respective industry, based upon their own unique circumstances and history.

But then, you already knew that, right? crazy
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/10/14 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.
so you never had any employees ?
What is it about the word "freelancer" that has your pointy little head tied into such a tight little knot, eh, Schlitzie?
then why did you even bring it up that you did not provide a pension to your 'people' but paid them 3 times more than a 'teacher'?

< sigh >

Because, you moron... they were FREELANCERS. Got It???


then why did you even mention it on this thread then?

a 'deflection' method you use to backtrack
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/10/14 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.

is a 'teachers' penion not a taxpayer reliant program that should be eliminated?

convert to a 401k

401ks are lousy investments both in terms of risk and returns, when compared to other programs that would become available if people could afford to invest in them.


and can you name these 'other programs' one could invest in?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/10/14 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Educator's pensions are part of the guaranteed benefits packages, that American academia demanded as a way to prevent educators from once again being fired in vast numbers, for teaching long-established political, socio-economic, scientific and historical facts, which may be a threat to the power of the rich and politically well-connected.


are you talking about middle/high school 'teachers'?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/10/14 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
No, I certainly did not. They weren't my employees.
so you never had any employees ?
What is it about the word "freelancer" that has your pointy little head tied into such a tight little knot, eh, Schlitzie?
then why did you even bring it up that you did not provide a pension to your 'people' but paid them 3 times more than a 'teacher'?
< sigh > Because, you moron... they were FREELANCERS. Got It???
then why did you even mention it on this thread then?

a 'deflection' method you use to backtrack

Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).

Any deflections, on this thread, are clearly a result of your efforts, not mine. You're the one repeatedly changing the subject when you're proven categorically ignorant of any facts (exactly as you just did, in the post above).

Do you have any MORE utterly moronic comments/questions that you'd like to field?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/10/14 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
is a 'teachers' penion not a taxpayer reliant program that should be eliminated?

convert to a 401k
401(k)s are lousy investments both in terms of risk and returns, when compared to other programs that would become available if people could afford to invest in them.
and can you name these 'other programs' one could invest in?

Gladly.

* Aggressive Growth Funds
* Individual Stocks
* Foreign Stocks/Global Funds
* High-yield Bonds
* Small-cap Stock Funds
* Micro-cap Stock Funds
* Options Trading
* Private Equity Arrangements
* Venture Capital Pools
* REITs (Real Estate Investment Trusts)

All have varying degrees of risk and outlay requirements, but when properly invested, all have far better returns and inherent security though diversity.

Generally speaking, and for a multitude of reasons, 401(k) plans are a sham.

Let me know if you need any more help with your personal investment strategies. smirk
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/10/14 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Educator's pensions are part of the guaranteed benefits packages, that American academia demanded as a way to prevent educators from once again being fired in vast numbers, for teaching long-established political, socio-economic, scientific and historical facts, which may be a threat to the power of the rich and politically well-connected.
are you talking about middle/high school 'teachers'?

Absolutely!

As goes higher education, so goes lower.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Educator's pensions are part of the guaranteed benefits packages, that American academia demanded as a way to prevent educators from once again being fired in vast numbers, for teaching long-established political, socio-economic, scientific and historical facts, which may be a threat to the power of the rich and politically well-connected.
are you talking about middle/high school 'teachers'?

Absolutely!

As goes higher education, so goes lower.


you were talking about college professors and not public 'teachers'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you paid people a proper wage in the first place, the market would support the ability of an individual to invest in more profitable investments other than 401Ks and other subsidy/taxpayer reliant programs.
is a 'teachers' penion not a taxpayer reliant program that should be eliminated?

convert to a 401k
401(k)s are lousy investments both in terms of risk and returns, when compared to other programs that would become available if people could afford to invest in them.
and can you name these 'other programs' one could invest in?

Gladly.

* Aggressive Growth Funds
* Individual Stocks
* Foreign Stocks/Global Funds
* High-yield Bonds
* Small-cap Stock Funds
* Micro-cap Stock Funds
* Options Trading
* Private Equity Arrangements
* Venture Capital Pools
* REITs (Real Estate Investment Trusts)

All have varying degrees of risk and outlay requirements, but when properly invested, all have far better returns and inherent security though diversity.

Generally speaking, and for a multitude of reasons, 401(k) plans are a sham.


then all those employees without a pension should get three times the pay as 'teachers' because you paid your 'workers' three times more and did not offer them a pension


Originally Posted By: Timbo

Let me know if you need any more help with your personal investment strategies. smirk


LOL

tell us when you run a successful business

yawn...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).


'several examples'????

where are all those examples?

eliminate the 'teachers' pension and have then sign up for obamacare

the money should be used for the students not on the 'teachers'
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).
the money should be used for the students not on the 'teachers'

It's NOT an "either/or proposition", no matter how vociferously you insist that it is.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 08:21 AM


Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.
Richwine and Biggs’ report doesn’t make the grade.

http://www.epi.org/publication/ib324-public-school-teacher-benefits/

When most people think of the perks of teaching, an image that comes to mind is a shiny apple presented by a gap-toothed pupil. But a recent paper by Jason Richwine of the Heritage Foundation and Andrew Biggs of the American Enterprise Institute claims that public school teachers enjoy lavish benefits that are more valuable than their base pay and twice as generous as those of private-sector workers (Richwine and Biggs 2011). According to Richwine and Biggs, this makes teachers’ total compensation 52 percent higher than fair-market levels and amounts to $120 billion “overcharged” to taxpayers each year.

This finding, and previous research by the same authors (Biggs and Richwine 2011), are at odds with a large body of research showing that public school teachers and other government workers have total compensation that is lower—or at least no higher—than that of comparable private-sector workers (see, for example, Allegretto, Corcoran, and Mishel 2004, 2008, 2011; Bender and Heywood 2010; Keefe 2010; Munnell et al. 2011; Schmitt 2010). Furthermore, the “teaching penalty” has grown, as teachers’ and other public-sector workers’ pay has declined relative to that of comparable private-sector workers (Allegretto, Corcoran, and Mishel 2008, 2011; Bender and Heywood 2010).

How do Richwine and Biggs get such different results? Their research comparing public- and private-sector pay has been critiqued elsewhere (Hanauer 2011; Keefe 2011), so this brief will address the authors’ specific case against school teachers, focusing on benefits. A separate EPI paper on teacher salaries by Mishel and Roy (forthcoming), as well as an overview by Jeffrey Keefe in the National Education and Policy Center’s Think Tank Review Project (2012), challenge Richwine and Biggs’ extremely controversial claim that teacher salaries are as high as those of comparable workers, once teachers’ supposed “low cognitive ability” compared to other college graduates is taken into account.

This brief will show that, among other things, Richwine and Biggs:

* Compare teachers with private-sector workers with much lower educational attainment.

* Selectively alternate between the cost of benefits to employers and the value to workers, and inappropriately equate the latter with the often much higher cost to individuals of obtaining equivalent benefits.

* Triple the cost of teacher pensions by assuming a very low rate of return on pension fund assets, or by assuming a very high cost of guaranteeing these benefits.

* Inflate the cost of retiree health benefits and seasonal leave.

* Place an arbitrary dollar figure on the value of job security to workers, while ignoring the advantage to employers of employee retention.

What is the appropriate comparison group?
There is near unanimity among economists that, whenever possible, compensation comparisons should compare workers with the same years of education and experience, with age often used as a proxy for experience. It is thus worth pointing out that Richwine and Biggs—despite their protestations to the contrary—generally compare teachers and other public-sector workers with private-sector workers who might be expected to have lower salaries or less-generous benefits. As Mishel and Roy (forthcoming) explain, Richwine and Biggs highlight statistical results for wages that intentionally exclude education. Though they include education and a range of other demographic variables in their initial wage regression, they later inexplicably drop the education variable. Likewise, in comparing benefits, they compare public school teachers with all private-sector workers employed by large employers, even though public school teachers are much better educated than these private-sector workers.

Gender, race, marital status, and employer size are also significant predictors of compensation—though there is no clear-cut economic rationale for why women, minorities, and unmarried people should be paid less, nor why larger employers should pay more. Nevertheless, it is conventional to include these demographic variables as well as employer size where possible.

Richwine and Biggs imply that they are bending over backward to compare public-sector workers to better-paid private-sector workers. However, researchers, including Richwine and Biggs, are if anything minimizing the overall pay gap by including race and gender controls in wage regressions, which may explain away some of the lower pay of teachers and other public-sector workers, who are more likely to be female and black. Schmitt (2010), for example, finds that while state and local workers are paid 6.4 percent less than private-sector workers with the same education and age, this pay gap shrinks to 3.7 percent if controls for gender, race, and region are included.

Philosophical issues aside, the ability to make a clear, apples-to-apples comparison of the generosity of benefits is limited by the data. Researchers often compare wages using the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey (CPS), which includes detailed demographic information as well as firm size (though Richwine and Biggs actually omit firm size in their wage regression). Research on fringe benefits, on the other hand, is usually based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ National Compensation Survey (NCS), an employer survey that only provides breakdowns by broad occupation group, industry group, and establishment size.

Since there is no way to directly compare the benefits of workers with the same education and experience, researchers sometimes compare teachers and other public-sector workers to private-sector workers in large establishments, based on the fact that most public-sector workers also work for large employers, which enjoy cost advantages in providing fringe benefits. This is the approach adopted by Richwine and Biggs. Though this may be the least-bad option, Richwine and Biggs falsely claim that they are being “relatively conservative” in choosing this comparison group, even though public school teachers are better educated and therefore better paid than private-sector workers working for large employers—and correspondingly might be expected to have more-generous benefits (which is not surprising when you consider that the comparison group includes Walmart workers, for example).

Public school teachers are very well educated, split roughly evenly between those with bachelor’s degrees and those with graduate degrees (49 percent have a bachelor’s degree, and 45 percent have at least a master’s degree). They are much better educated than private-sector workers with large employers. For example, among private-sector workers working for firms with 1,000 or more employees, only 21 percent have a bachelor’s degree, and just 9 percent have at least a master’s degree (EPI analysis of 2003–2010 IPUMS CPS data [King et al. 2010]).1

How Richwine and Biggs get to 52 percent:
Despite these differences in educational attainment, Richwine and Biggs acknowledge at the outset that National Compensation Survey data show that the relative importance of benefits for teachers and private-sector workers in large establishments is nearly identical, amounting to roughly 41 percent of wages (or 29 percent of total compensation). However, after making various adjustments, Richwine and Biggs estimate that the value of teachers’ benefits is actually more than double the NCS estimate, or equal to 100.8 percent of wages (they also make a much smaller revision to the estimate for private-sector workers). As shown in Table 1, this is achieved by almost tripling retirement costs; by adding a benefit missing from the Bureau of Labor Statistics data (retiree health care); and by adding a benefit they call “work-year leave” that is already factored into wage measures.

TABLE 1
Benefits as a percentage of wages, 2010, according to Richwine and Biggs:




In addition, Richwine and Biggs inflate teachers’ total compensation by an additional 8.6 percent to account for teachers’ supposedly greater job security. Since, as mentioned earlier, they also adjust teachers’ salaries upward to match those of private-sector workers, teachers’ total compensation is supposedly 52 percent higher than that of private-sector workers.2

However, as will be discussed in this paper, the only one of these adjustments that is relatively uncontroversial is the addition of retiree health benefits (though even this figure appears inflated). Furthermore, the addition of retiree health care does not by itself close the pay gap between public school teachers and comparable private-sector workers, which the authors initially estimate at 19.3 percent (as mentioned earlier, their later assumption that there is no salary gap rests on a highly dubious model that excludes education).

Valuing benefits: The cost to employers vs. the value to workers
Richwine and Biggs selectively alternate between the cost of benefits to employers and the value to workers. They inappropriately equate the latter with the often much higher cost to individuals of obtaining equivalent benefits.

When assessing the value of fringe benefits, researchers may be interested in the cost to employers (with or without taking into account indirect costs and benefits, such as employee retention); the value to employees; or the cost of purchasing similar benefits in the private market. Large private employers and the government are often able to provide insurance and pension benefits at much lower cost than individuals can purchase the same benefits for themselves, which is one of the main reasons these benefits are provided by employers in the first place (there may also be tax advantages as well as workforce management considerations).

Large employers and government entities are better equipped to assume many risks than are individuals because individual longevity and medical risks can be reduced or even eliminated by pooling. This is a basic tenet of insurance: Costs fall as pool size increases. This asymmetry, plus economies of scale in administration and the elimination of adverse-selection problems that drive up costs in the individual insurance market (because insurers assume that sicker individuals are more likely to purchase health and life insurance and healthier individuals are more likely to purchase life annuities), make employer-provided pension and insurance benefits a very cost-effective component of employee compensation for large employers. That is, the value to workers is greater than the cost to employers.

Though the value to workers is generally higher than the cost to employers, this does not mean that the value to employees is the relevant measure, nor that the value to employees is the same as the cost of purchasing benefits in the individual insurance market, as Richwine and Biggs seem to suggest. Many workers would purchase less-generous benefits or forgo them entirely if required to purchase them at the higher cost.

It is far from clear that it is the value of benefits to workers that is of interest in this case. Since the main point of Richwine and Biggs’ paper is that taxpayers are being “overcharged,” the direct cost to employers would seem to be the most straightforward measure. This is what most researchers focus on, including Richwine and Biggs—though not consistently. For example, they arbitrarily value retiree health benefits (which are more common in the public sector) at the higher cost of purchasing equivalent insurance in the private market. They do not, however, make the same adjustment for group health insurance for active workers, nor for disability and life insurance provided through Social Security. (Since many teachers are not covered by Social Security, the latter adjustment would tend to increase private-sector pay relative to teacher pay.) Richwine and Biggs do not explain this inconsistency, giving the impression that they choose among measures with an eye to inflating teacher compensation.

The perceived value of benefits to workers may be relevant if, say, certain benefits are valued more than others relative to their direct cost, and if this affects recruitment and retention. However, this raises the thorny issue of how to measure the value to workers, since by definition workers are not directly paying for employer-provided benefits (workers’ own contributions toward retirement and other benefits are not included in these compensation measures). In any case, the value to workers is not the same as the cost of purchasing equivalent benefits in the individual market, which is irrelevant.

This also raises the issue of why public-sector employers would take greater advantage of the difference between the direct cost of providing certain benefits and their (presumably higher) value to workers. Advocates of high-road employment practices and social insurance might argue that the full value of employer- and government-provided benefits is not fully recognized by private-sector employers. However, this is an odd position coming from the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute, organizations that tend to view the private sector as more efficient, and favor shifting the cost and risk of retirement and health care to individuals.

The present value of future benefits:
The problem of distinguishing between the cost to employers and the value to workers is compounded in the case of future retiree benefits by the fact that these benefits are uncertain and that they must be translated to present values. By selectively focusing on the supposed value to workers rather than the direct cost to employers, and by placing a very high value on pension guarantees, Richwine and Biggs value pension benefits at triple their direct cost to employers.

Admittedly, valuing retiree benefits is a complicated task. First, future benefits must be estimated, and these estimates are sensitive to underlying assumptions. The future value of pension benefits, for example, depends in part on salary projections, because service credits are usually multiplied by a percentage of final pay rather than current pay. Similarly, the future value of retiree health benefits depends not only on projected health care costs, but also on whether the benefits will even exist when workers retire. (Unlike accrued pension benefits, which are generally protected by law, retiree health benefits may be reduced or eliminated at any time, with the possible exception of those covered by a collective bargaining agreement.)

Second, future benefits must be translated into present values. In the case of retiree benefits that are funded in advance (including traditional pension benefits and some retiree health benefits), this is equivalent to asking how much employers need to contribute to a trust today to pay for benefits in the future, which depends on investment returns.

Pension benefits:
The problem of translating future benefits to present values looms especially large in the case of pension benefits. Importantly, Richwine and Biggs do not directly challenge pension fund actuaries’ assumptions about expected returns, which are generally slightly lower than the returns these funds have realized historically. Rather, they argue that since returns are uncertain, the yardstick should be the so-called risk-free rate—the long-run return on Treasury securities—which is roughly half the expected return on pension fund assets. Due to compounding, investing in low-yield assets such as Treasury bonds would triple required pension contributions by Richwine and Biggs’ estimation.

Most economists, including Richwine and Biggs, agree that the risk-free rate is much lower than the expected return on actual pension fund assets, which are invested in balanced portfolios that include stocks. Neither Richwine nor Biggs denies the existence of an equity premium (a higher expected return on stocks than the risk-free rate), and Biggs has been bullish on stock returns in other contexts (Biggs 2002). However, Richwine and Biggs point out that economists would use the risk-free rate, rather than the expected return, to determine how much employers or workers would need to set aside to guarantee a similar retirement benefit.

The question boils down to which measure is appropriate in this context. As with benefits for active workers, the issue can be framed as the difference among the direct cost to employers, the total (direct and indirect) cost to employers net of any benefits received, the value of these benefits to workers, and the price of equivalent benefits purchased by individuals.

In this case, the best measure of the direct cost would be the “normal cost” measure used by pension fund actuaries, which in the public sector is based on the expected return on fund assets. This is the best estimate of how much employers need to contribute today to pay for future benefits. The measure preferred by Richwine and Biggs, however, is the largest value: the cost to individuals—specifically, workers with 401(k)s—of funding a similar guaranteed benefit. Richwine and Biggs also interpret this as the total cost to employers, and by extension to taxpayers, including not just the direct cost of pension contributions but also the indirect cost of assuming financial risk.

The two measures would be the same if employers (notably public employers) were as risk-averse as other investors, and if there were no other indirect costs and benefits to consider, such as employee retention. However, neither of these conditions holds; public employers are properly less risk-averse than most investors (especially individual investors), and pensions promote employee retention.

The logical implication of Richwine and Biggs’ position is that public employers and taxpayers would be indifferent between current pension funding practices and investing in Treasury securities, even though this would triple the cost of pension benefits. Richwine and Biggs would have a stronger case for putting a high price tag on the indirect cost of guaranteeing benefits if volatility in pension fund investment returns translated into large swings in state and local taxes. But pension funds are designed to absorb financial market volatility (that is, to diversify across time, not just across assets), since in any given year benefit outlays are typically a small fraction of assets. This allows pension funds to ride out bull and bear markets, unlike individual 401(k) savers, who need to tap all their retirement funds over a specified time period.

In the real world, when public employers face increases in pension costs large enough to warrant taxpayer concern, it is almost always because elected officials have neglected pension contributions, a problem that using the risk-free discount rate does not address. Even including funds to which elected officials neglected to make required pension contributions, as some did during the stock market bubble, a study by the Center for Retirement Research notes that contributions will need to rise by less than a third (from 3.8 percent to 5.0 percent of total state and government spending) to amortize the unfunded liabilities resulting from the bursting of the bubble if pension obligations are discounted using an expected return of 8 percent (Munnell et al. 2010). Though this is a significant increase in the wake of a severe downturn, it does not appear to justify tripling pension contributions to reduce similar risks in the future, especially considering that a significant share of current unfunded liabilities is due to underpayment as opposed to market volatility.

Furthermore, some of the risk of public pension funding falls on teachers and other workers, who typically pay for a portion of their benefits out of their paychecks. Though employee contributions are generally fixed in the short run, they often rise in the event of significant underfunding. In 2010–11, public employees in 18 states saw increases in employee contributions, not including increases that only affected new hires (Snell 2011). In addition, other forms of compensation may be cut back, such as salaries (which factor into pension benefits).3

In addition, Richwine and Biggs do not consider whether the indirect benefits to taxpayers of teacher pensions, such as teacher retention, may offset (or more than offset) these indirect costs. Traditional pension benefit structures inhibit mobility, since teachers who move frequently will tend to receive lower pensions than those who remain within one school district. This is a plus for employers and a minus for workers, who may pay a penalty if they want to change jobs. Conversely, the fact that employers assume financial and longevity risks associated with saving and investing for retirement is a plus for workers and a minus for employers. But large employers with long-term investment horizons, especially government entities, are much better equipped to assume these risks than individuals.

Retiree health benefits:
While it is difficult to assign a value to future pension benefits, it is even more difficult to gauge the value of health benefits for future retirees.

Richwine and Biggs correctly point out that retiree health benefits are not included in the NCS. Based on a small sample of plans, they estimate the cost of these benefits at 8 percent of pay, comparable to the 7.6 percent estimate based on a much larger sample of public-sector workers by Munnell et al. (2011).

Munnell et al. point out that many employers are cutting back on retiree health benefits. Richwine and Biggs ignore not just the likelihood that some retiree health benefits will be cut, but also the uncertainty of these cutbacks, which, if Richwine and Biggs were consistent in their treatment of risk, would itself impose a cost on teachers. In addition, Keefe (2011) notes that these benefits are sometimes paid for through pension contributions, so there is the possibility of double counting. Rather than adjusting their estimate downward, however, Richwine and Biggs inappropriately inflate it to 10 percent of pay based on the fact that these benefits would be more costly to purchase in the individual market. This is a grossly flawed measure, as discussed earlier.

Though retiree health is the one area where the NCS does understate the cost of employee benefits, especially for teachers and other public-sector workers, Munnell et al. (2011) and Keefe (2010) find that public-sector workers are paid less even when taking these benefits into account. Admittedly, the problem of how to estimate the cost of future retiree health benefits is a difficult one, both because future health care costs are unknown and because these benefits may be cut back or eliminated at any time. For this reason, employers were not obliged to account for these future benefits as a liability on their balance sheets until recently.

“Work-year leave”
Just as the cost of retiree health benefits may be double counted in some areas, Richwine and Biggs tack on a “benefit”—time off for seasonal breaks, which they call “work-year leave”—that researchers usually incorporate into wage and salary comparisons. They value this benefit at 28.8 percent of wages, even though the NCS takes this leave into account in determining hourly wages and benefits.

Richwine and Biggs claim to have stumbled upon the issue of work-year leave in a footnote, even though the pertinent information is right in the body of the short Bureau of Labor Statistics article they cite (Schumann 2008). Furthermore, the same article cautions that teachers’ hours in the NCS are understated because the survey does not take into account the considerable time many teachers spend on lesson planning and grading at home, a point that indicates the NCS overstates teachers’ hourly compensation—and one that Richwine and Biggs ignore.

Richwine and Biggs’ rationale for including seasonal leave as a benefit rather than factoring the shorter work year into their salary comparison is that CPS earnings data may or may not account for teachers’ shorter work year, “so in many cases…weekly salaries in the CPS are simply annual salaries divided by 52 weeks.” Richwine and Biggs say that “[u]sing weekly salaries without further adjustment for summer vacation will upwardly bias teacher compensation.” In fact, it would downwardly bias teacher pay, but this is presumably an editing error.

The normal solution in this case would be to adjust CPS earnings measures, as necessary, to take into account teachers’ seasonal leave, since these adjustments have already been made to the NCS data that Richwine and Biggs use to compare benefits. Instead, Richwine and Biggs appear to include the unadjusted annual pay in their CPS “wage regression” results; they then tack on “work-year” leave as an additional benefit to the adjusted NCS data. They do not explain why they do this, though they imply it is because the CPS earnings data are unreliable (that is, the shorter work year is not consistently taken into account). If so, this is a problem for their overall analysis.

More likely, their unorthodox approach is designed to inflate teacher pay in comparison to that of private-sector workers, especially since Richwine and Biggs gloss over the rather startling implication of their results, which is that teachers appear to receive higher salaries than comparable private-sector workers, even without matching for “cognitive ability” (the exercise that takes up much of the first half of their paper and will be addressed in a forthcoming paper by Mishel and Roy). That is, they find that teachers are paid 80.7 percent as much as full-year private-sector workers even though they work only 71.2 percent of the year.

Compensating differentials and job security:
Richwine and Biggs’ accounting for differences in working conditions appears equally arbitrary, especially when it comes to assigning a dollar value to job security.

In a perfectly competitive labor market, any pay gap between similarly skilled workers can be explained by what economists refer to as “compensating differentials”—differences in working conditions, job satisfaction, and the like. In practice, labor markets are far from perfectly competitive, and research often turns up results that seem to contradict this theory (e.g., many dangerous jobs, such as working in a meatpacking plant, pay poorly).

Richwine and Biggs treat job security as a form of compensation, akin to a fringe benefit, though many economists would treat it as a compensating differential. There are many reasons why turnover might be lower in some jobs than others, and only some of these could possibly be considered as equivalent to an employee benefit.

Low turnover is often viewed as a boon to both workers and employers, though there may be exceptions—for example, if low turnover reflects the difficulty of firing low-performing workers, or if pension and other benefits serve as “golden handcuffs” for workers. However, to the extent that low turnover reflects job satisfaction and a good employer/employee relationship, it is a win-win for workers and employers.

In the case of teachers, a large body of research finds that employee retention is very valuable to schools because teachers with at least three to five years of experience are much more effective than less experienced teachers (Boivie 2011). The longer a teacher stays within a school system, the easier it is for the employer to recoup the sunk costs of on-the-job training. This fact is not lost on school systems, as pensions and pay scales are designed to promote teacher retention through their years of peak effectiveness. Since reducing turnover is an explicit goal of teacher pensions, teacher retention should be counted against the cost of teacher benefits, not added to them. At the very least, it should not be considered an added cost to taxpayers.

In any case, Richwine and Biggs do not come close to proving that teachers have more job security than equally skilled private-sector workers, especially given recent mass layoffs in many school districts. Though Richwine and Biggs cite anecdotal evidence about incompetent teachers who manage to keep their jobs, there are also incompetent workers in the private sector, and Richwine and Biggs offer no evidence that incompetence is more tolerated in the public sector.

Richwine and Biggs also compare the drop in public education employment to the overall decline in private-sector employment in the recent downturn, but this is not a valid comparison since teachers should be compared to similarly skilled workers, not the entire private-sector workforce. Though it is possible that teachers’ employment is less cyclical than employment in other sectors, Munnell et al. (2011) show that public-sector workers have generally seen job losses similar to those of comparable private-sector workers in the recent downturn, after taking into account differences in education.

Finally, Richwine and Biggs compare unemployment rates from 2005–10 for occupations comparable to teaching. This is more pertinent than the comparison with all private-sector workers, though it still does not prove that teachers have more job security, or even job stability, than comparable workers. Keefe (2011) points out that differences in unemployment rates reflect not just the probability of job loss, but also the probability of new entrants obtaining a job in the first place. Thus, the low unemployment rate among teachers likely reflects, in part, that the supply of aspiring workers is lower in the teaching profession than in other professions due to teachers’ lower pay. Keefe also points out that to put a dollar value on job security, as Richwine and Biggs do, you would normally start by showing that people are willing to accept lower pay in exchange for a decreased likelihood of being laid off, though Keefe finds no empirical support for this compensating differential across occupations.

Even if teachers enjoyed more job security than comparable workers and were willing to forgo some pay in exchange, this begs the question of why Richwine and Biggs only attempt to put a monetary value on this single job characteristic, especially since they allude to others in the paper. In discussing private school teachers, for example, Richwine and Biggs acknowledge that the lower pay of some private school teachers might reflect the fact that “teachers in sectarian schools often consider their work to be part of their religious service, meaning they may accept below-market salaries.” They also note that “elite private schools often feature specialized curriculums directed at select groups of students.” In other words, many teachers derive personal satisfaction from their jobs and in working for the greater good (Almeida and Boivie 2009). Some teachers may also prefer to teach elite students or students of the same religion. However, other college-educated workers enjoy “perks” not factored into this analysis, such as more-flexible schedules.

As with the possibility that government employers get more “bang for the buck” from their benefits, the possibility that job satisfaction is greater for teachers than for similarly skilled workers may help explain the lower pay of teachers (and the even lower pay of some private school teachers) as well as their lower turnover. However, it is misleading to describe teachers as “overpaid” if their observed compensation is lower than that of other professionals. Furthermore, it would be a mistake to assume that school systems could further reduce teacher salaries or benefits relative to those of comparable occupations without affecting recruitment and retention.

Conclusion:
Richwine and Biggs’ argument that teachers are overpaid because their benefits are twice as generous as those received by comparable private-sector workers is not persuasive. CPS and NCS data show that teachers earn significantly less in wage and salary compensation than comparable private-sector workers or those employed in large establishments, taking into account summer breaks and other differences in time spent at work. Meanwhile, NCS data show that they receive similar benefits to large-establishment workers, even though teachers are likely to be much better educated, on average.

The NCS data does not include the cost of retiree health benefits, which is hard to project with any degree of confidence. Whether or not retiree health benefits close the pay gap, the authors certainly do not prove that teachers are overpaid, let alone overpaid by half. Even if indirect costs and benefits are taken into account, Richwine and Biggs are highly selective in which of these costs and benefits to include, and improperly conflate the cost to individuals of purchasing similar benefits with the generally much lower cost to employers.

In particular, Richwine and Biggs triple the cost of teacher pensions by using a risk-free rate to value pension benefits, which they equate with the cost to individual 401(k) investors of funding equivalent benefits. While employers assume financial risks with defined benefit pensions, Richwine and Biggs do not take into account other indirect costs and benefits of these pensions, such as employee retention. There is no reason to believe that pensions’ important role in encouraging employee retention is more than offset by the financial risks employers assume with these plans.

The difference between the cost to employers and the value to workers of some benefits may help explain why public-sector workers appear willing to work for less pay. However, it does not mean that taxpayers are being “overcharged” for these benefits. In practice, the direct cost to employers is the only practical way to compare public-sector and private-sector pay because indirect costs and benefits are innumerable and impossible to measure directly. The direct cost of employee compensation is lower in the public sector, even according to Richwine and Biggs’ initial estimation. In short, their revised estimates are simply not convincing.

Endnotes:
1. There are two measures of employer size: Firm size is the total number of employees in an organization, whereas establishment size is the number at a particular location. Unfortunately, CPS and NCS use different measures, though the two are obviously related. Though educational attainment is not readily available by establishment size (as opposed to firm size), it is likely that private-sector workers employed in large establishments (Richwine and Biggs’ comparison group) have more in common with private-sector workers employed by large firms than they do with public school teachers.

2. Teachers’ compensation as a percent of salary: 108.9 percent x (100 percent + 100.8 percent) = 218.7 percent

Private-sector compensation as a percent of salary: (100 percent + 43.5 percent) = 143.5 percent

Teachers’ pay premium: (218.7 percent – 143.5 percent) / 143.5 percent &#8776; 52 percent.

3. Additional problems with using the risk-free rate to discount projected pension obligations are discussed in Baker (2011a; 2011b), Lav and McNichol (2011), and Morrissey (2011). Gollier (2007) discusses the role of pension funds in intergenerational risk sharing, which allows employers and taxpayers to take advantage of the equity premium.

References:
Allegretto, Sylvia A., Sean P. Corcoran, and Lawrence Mishel. 2004. How Does Teacher Pay Compare? Methodological Challenges and Answers. Washington, D.C.: EPI. http://www.epi.org/publication/books_teacher_pay/

Allegretto, Sylvia A., Sean P. Corcoran, and Lawrence Mishel. 2008. The Teaching Penalty: Teacher Pay Losing Ground. Washington, D.C.: EPI. http://www.epi.org/publication/book_teaching_penalty/

Allegretto, Sylvia A., Sean P. Corcoran, and Lawrence Mishel. 2011. The teaching penalty—an update through 2010. Economic Policy Institute Issue Brief #298. Washington D.C.: EPI. http://www.epi.org/publication/the_teaching_penalty_an_update_through_2010/

Almeida, Beth and Ilana Boivie. 2009. “The Staying Power of Pensions in the Public Sector,” CPER Journal, no. 195. http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/staying_power_of_public_pensions.pdf

Baker, Dean. 2011a. The Origins and Severity of the Public Pension Crisis. Washington, D.C.: Center for Economic and Policy Research. http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/returns-on-public-pensions-what-rates-should-we-assume

Baker, Dean. 2011b. “Returns on public pensions: What rates should we assume?” CEPR Blog (blog), March 6. http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/returns-on-public-pensions-what-rates-should-we-assume

Bender, Keith A. and John S. Heywood. 2010. Comparing Public and Private Sector Compensation over 20 Years. Milwaukee: University of Wisconsin. http://www.slge.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7B22748FDE-C3B8-4E10-83D0-959386E5C1A4%7D&DE=%7BBD1EB9E6-79DA-42C7-A47E-5D4FA1280C0B%7D

Biggs, Andrew G. 2002. The stock market and Social Security reform. Washington, D.C.: Cato Institute. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3562

Biggs, Andrew G. and Jason Richwine. 2011. Public vs. Private Sector Compensation in Ohio: public workers make 43 percent more in total compensation than their private-sector colleagues. Columbus: Ohio Business Roundtable. http://media.cleveland.com/open_impact/other/Ohio%20Business%20Rountable%20study.pdf

Boivie, Ilana. 2011. The three Rs of teacher pension plans: recruitment, retention and retirement. Washington, D.C.: National Institute on Retirement Security. http://www.sdcera.org/PDF/Teachers_Pension_Plan_Study_Oct_2011.pdf

Gollier, Christian. 2007. “Intergenerational Risk-Sharing and Risk-Taking of a Pension Fund.” Journal of Public Economics, vol. 92, no. 5–6, pp. 1463–1485.

Hanauer, Amy. 2011. Business Roundtable Study Deeply Flawed. Cleveland: Policy Matters Ohio. http://www.policymattersohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/BRT-Study_2011.pdf

Keefe, Jeffrey H. 2010. Debunking the myth of over-compensated public employees. Economic Policy Institute Briefing Paper #276. Washington, D.C.: EPI. http://www.epi.org/publication/debunking_the_myth_of_the_overcompensated_public_employee/

Keefe, Jeffrey H. 2011. Ohio public employees are not overcompensated: Rebutting a diversion from Senate Bill 5. Economic Policy Institute Briefing Paper #329. Washington, D.C.: EPI. http://www.epi.org/publication/ohio-public-employees-overcompensated-senate-bill-5/

Keefe, Jeffrey H. 2012. “Review of assessing the compensation of public-school teachers.” Think Tank Review. Boulder, Colo.: National Education Policy Center. http://nepc.colorado.edu/files/TTR-TchrCompens-Heritage_0.pdf

King, Miriam, Steven Ruggles, J. Trent Alexander, Sarah Flood, Katie Genadek, Matthew B. Schroeder, Brandon Trampe, and Rebecca Vick. 2010. Integrated Public Use Microdata Series, Current Population Survey: Version 3.0. [Machine-readable database]. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota.

Lav, Iris J. and Elizabeth McNichol. 2011. Misunderstandings regarding state debt, pensions, and retiree health costs create unnecessary alarm. Misconceptions also divert attention from needed structural reforms. Washington D.C.: Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. http://www.cbpp.org/files/1-20-11sfp.pdf

Morrissey, Monique. 2011. Discounting public pensions: Reports of trillions in shortfalls ignore expected returns on assets. Economic Policy Institute Policy Memorandum #179. Washington, D.C.: EPI. http://www.epi.org/publication/pm179/

Munnell, Alicia H., Jean-Pierre Aubry, Josh Hurwitz, and Laura Quinby. 2011. Comparing compensation: State-local versus private sector workers. Boston: Center for Retirement Research. http://crr.bc.edu/images/stories/Briefs/slp_20.pdf

Richwine, Jason and Andrew G. Biggs. 2011. Assessing the compensation of public-school teachers. A Report of the Heritage Center for Data Analysis. CDA 11-03. Washington, D.C.: The Heritage Foundation and American Enterprise Institute. http://www.aei.org/files/2011/11/02/-ass...19282337242.pdf

Schmitt, John. 2010. The wage penalty for state and local government employees. Washington, D.C.: Center for Economic and Policy Research. http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/wage-penalty-2010-05.pdf

Schumann, Richard. 2008. Work schedules in the national compensation survey. Washington, D.C.: Bureau of Labor Statistics. http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20080722ar01p1.htm

Snell, Ron. 2011. “State Retirement Legislation in 2010 and 2011.” National Conference of State Legislatures, PowerPoint presentation presented June 30, 2011. http://www.ncsl.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WCg6SYg6vZ4%3d&tabid=13399
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).
the money should be used for the students not on the 'teachers'

It's NOT an "either/or proposition",


so tell us how a full pension and full healthcare for a 'teacher' benefits a student?

yawn...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/21/14 10:19 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).
the money should be used for the students not on the 'teachers'

It's NOT an "either/or proposition",

so tell us how a full pension and full healthcare for a 'teacher' benefits a student?

Because, in the entire history of the modern workplace, education and world economy, draconian austerity measures, virtually without exception, have the profoundly negative and immediate effect on both the quality of education, the resulting test results and the economic sustainability. We have more than a hundred years of detailed studies and documented history from which to verify these fact.

Historically, student performance, productive workforces, industry profitability and a strong US economy have a direct relationship to well-rewarded educators and well-financed institutions of learning.

Simply put, you get what you pay for.

Now, I suggest that you "do some homework" of your own, before you ask any more rediculously ill-conceived questions.
Posted by: cwjga

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/22/14 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job


There are none because private companies can not give tax free pensions.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/22/14 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: cwjga
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.

so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job

There are none because private companies can not give tax free pensions.

And why does it have to be private, in the first place?

You must be just another "privatization" kook.

Boy, you guys just looove moving the goal post, don't you ? ? ? whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/14 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).
the money should be used for the students not on the 'teachers'

It's NOT an "either/or proposition",

so tell us how a full pension and full healthcare for a 'teacher' benefits a student?

Because, in the entire history of the modern workplace, education and world economy, draconian austerity measures, virtually without exception, have the profoundly negative and immediate effect on both the quality of education, the resulting test results and the economic sustainability. We have more than a hundred years of detailed studies and documented history from which to verify these fact.

Historically, student performance, productive workforces, industry profitability and a strong US economy have a direct relationship to well-rewarded educators and well-financed institutions of learning.



so you are saying that 'teachers' have been getting full healthcare and a full pension for the past 100 years?

yawn...



Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/14 07:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/14 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job

1) It's NOT a part time job.

2) It's NOT part of the private sector.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/24/14 12:04 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because, you made the unqualifyingly idiotic suggestion, that no other professionals make the type of money that teachers make while having as much time off, whose retirements are taxpayer funded and that belong to such a powerful Union. I then provided several examples of other professions that do, indeed, have precisely THAT very thing (e.g. USNS Merchant Marines).
the money should be used for the students not on the 'teachers'

It's NOT an "either/or proposition",

so tell us how a full pension and full healthcare for a 'teacher' benefits a student?

Because, in the entire history of the modern workplace, education and world economy, draconian austerity measures, virtually without exception, have the profoundly negative and immediate effect on both the quality of education, the resulting test results and the economic sustainability. We have more than a hundred years of detailed studies and documented history from which to verify these fact.

Historically, student performance, productive workforces, industry profitability and a strong US economy have a direct relationship to well-rewarded educators and well-financed institutions of learning.


so you are saying that 'teachers' have been getting full healthcare and a full pension for the past 100 years?

No, but for much of it (as if your inference changed the fact that children demonstrably benefit MORE from their teachers being well-rewarded).
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/28/14 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job

1) It's NOT a part time job.


is that why they have the summers off?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/28/14 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job

2) It's NOT part of the private sector.


your article compared it to the private sector
keep backtracking...
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/28/14 04:16 PM


It "compares teachers with private-sector workers with much lower educational attainment" AND it pulls back the curtains on Richwine and Biggs highly flawed "study" which inaccurately uses the private sector example.

BIG difference.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/30/14 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job

1) It's NOT a part time job.


so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits as a 'teacher' gets
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/30/14 11:54 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job
1) It's NOT a part time job.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits as a 'teacher' gets

Name 10 local private companies that require the same education, scheduling, (after) work hours, duties, responsibilities and ever-ongoing training.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/31/14 07:33 AM

any salaried position would meet those
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/31/14 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
It's NOT


maybe you should have obama pass a law that if an employee does not get a pension than they should be paid 3 times more

just like you paid your pseudo 'employees'
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 07/31/14 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
any salaried position would meet those

Name ONE.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job
1) It's NOT a part time job.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits as a 'teacher' gets


and the ONLY example you could come up with prior is the merchant marines

must be there are NO local companies that offer the LAVISH lifetime benefits that a part time 'teacher' gets




Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job
1) It's NOT a part time job.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits as a 'teacher' gets
and the ONLY example you could come up with prior is the merchant marines

No, most definitely NOT the ONLY example. A fact you'd be aware of, if you'd bother to keep up with the multitude of other examples I've previously posted during similar debates. A fact that also holds up against all your desperate attempts to alter the criteria and points of discussion.

The important FACT is... I've demonstrated conclusively, that your previous assertions that "no one else has similar (or better) benefits than teachers", to be absolutely and incontrovertibly FALSE.

Face it, you made a statement of "fact" and you were WRONG. Period!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 03:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits? Hardly.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits package for a 'part time' job
1) It's NOT a part time job.
so name 10 local private companies that offer the same benefits as a 'teacher' gets
and the ONLY example you could come up with prior is the merchant marines

No, most definitely NOT the ONLY example.


feel free to post them
and none offer the lavish benefits as a 'teacher'
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Pretty hard for a freelancer to save this much money in a 401K, check out these outrageous pensions http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
and the ONLY example you could come up with prior is the merchant marines

No, most definitely NOT the ONLY example. [/quote]

feel free to post them
and none offer the lavish benefits as a 'teacher'[/quote]
Hey, you're the one making the ridiculous accusations, Schlitzie, YOU do it.

Put up, or shut up.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 03:59 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Pretty hard for a freelancer to save this much money in a 401K, check out these outrageous pensions http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york

Not when freelance designers typically make somewhere in the area of $200 an hour (and often twice that), it certainly isn't.
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 04:15 PM

Show me where they make $200 an hour, how many get paid for forty hours a week and how they put away over $2,000,000 for their retirement, as always pure crap with no facts.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Show me where they make $200 an hour, how many get paid for forty hours a week and how they put away over $2,000,000 for their retirement, as always pure crap with no facts.

I've already posted extensive documentation on the subject. You'll find it either on this thread, the "arrogant teachers" thread, OR you can do what I did and LOOK IT UP.

I assure you, freelancers can easily make several hundred dollars an hour with a decent talent and similar educational credentials to that of, let's say... teachers. Especially in the big cities. Hours worked per week, is irrelevant. And now you're injecting a $2,000,000 retirement criteria to the argument. Something that with proper investment, should not at all be unobtainable for a freelancer in this earning bracket.

The only obvious crap that I can see, is that which you dispense, prior to getting off your lazy @ss and researching the subjects that you so ignorantly spit on about.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/04/14 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Show me where they make $200 an hour...

Okey-Dokey.

Here: http://internationalfreelancersacademy.c...an-do-about-it/

Here: http://danmontano.com/internal-post/user-experience-designer-salary-freelance-rates/#.U-AMklZmJFw

Here: http://www.njcreatives.org/membership/120-how-much-should-i-charge.html

Here: http://www.learnwebdevelopment.com/2012/...e-web-designer/

Here: http://www.amberweinberg.com/freelancing-rates-six-years-later/

Here: http://www.simpleseogroup.com/how-much-does-a-website-cost/

Here: http://wikiclass.us/en/info_12110132_freelance-marketing-designer-make


This took me less than four minutes to compile by doing a Google search.

Now, what was it that that big, festering gob of yours was saying?
grin
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/05/14 09:14 AM

Wrong again Monkey boy, your google searches prove nothing, some sites say a freelancer may possibly make up to $200 an hour, and we're not talking about the "Big City" as you suggest. Your response that the number of hours worked is irrelevant is just pure stupidity, many freelancers work sporadically and could not possible save over $2,000,000 for retirement. The $2,000,000 figure for a teacher's retirement PENSION is low do the math yourself.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/05/14 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Wrong again Monkey boy, your google searches prove nothing, some sites say a freelancer may possibly make up to $200 an hour, and we're not talking about the "Big City" as you suggest. Your response that the number of hours worked is irrelevant is just pure stupidity, many freelancers work sporadically and could not possible save over $2,000,000 for retirement. The $2,000,000 figure for a teacher's retirement PENSION is low do the math yourself.
Wrong Again, Zippy.

"I eventually got to the point where I could charge $200+ an hour for my work. Of course, if I tried to tell the client that I charged $200 an hour, I’d never get any work! But if I told the client their site would cost $2,000 (which is less than most sites now), and the site only took me 10 hours to code, voila! It’s all about perception and skill. A lower skilled developer might only charge $60 an hour, but if they take 3 times longer to code than me, the price ends up the same."

I guess we can now add "illiteracy" to the long list of your deficiencies.

Again, you miss the main point. I was asked to prove that freelancers make $200+ per hour, I did exactly that. And since I have FAR more experience in the field than you EVER will (obviously), I speak with excellent authority that this in not at all uncommon, as the multiple links I provided, clearly confirm.

The fact that "some" work sporadic hours, in no way alters the fact that the VAST MAJORITY work far more than 40 hrs a week. Something you would know if you had the least bit of personal experience in this or any other professional freelance environment.

I'll say one thing for you, you have no problem trying to blow smoke when you have no fire.

Nice chattin' with ya.
grin
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/05/14 10:07 AM

Again you answer nothing.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/05/14 10:16 AM


I answered the challenge to provide proof that freelancers Can make $200+ dollars an hour.

Check and Mate. cool



Next topic...
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/05/14 10:21 AM

Wrong.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/05/14 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: tubby
The $2,000,000 figure for a teacher's retirement PENSION is low do the math yourself.

OK, let's do the math.

Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
http://www.wgrz.com/story/money/2014/07/11/teacher-pension-costs-new-york/12556819/

In what Bizarro Universe, does that possibly add up to $2,000,000 ? ? ? whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 08:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


you are aware that a 'teacher' gets 80% of their final salary for their pension

are you saying that after 30 years of 'teaching' that their final salary is around $50,000?

try again
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 09:00 AM



The number of teachers and school administrators in New York collecting pensions increased 9 percent between 2010 and 2013, and the average pension grew 6.5 percent over that period, records show. Teacher pension records had been sealed by the retirement system amid a court fight over whether the details on individual pensioners should be public.
The state's highest court ruled in May that the information is public. The data reviewed by Gannett's Albany Bureau revealed new details about the number of teacher pension recipients in the state and how much they are receiving in retirement.
The pensions also varied significantly by region, ranging from an average of about $34,000 in Ithaca to $60,000 in Yonkers, where the cost of living is much higher, the data show.
A total of 147,156 individuals drew a pension from the Teachers Retirement System in 2013, up from 135,671 in 2010.
The New York State United Teachers union said there are a number of reasons why retirements are on the rise. Many teachers held off retiring during the recession in 2008 and 2009.
"As the economy recovers, it appears that New York's most senior teachers are now making the difficult decision to leave their students and retire," NYSUT spokesman Carl Korn said.
Some districts have offered early retirement incentives because of tough fiscal times, and Korn said some teachers have retired amid the controversy over new, tougher testing standards and teacher evaluations.
Korn said the increase in average teacher pensions is due mainly to older teachers retiring with decades in the system.
"The additional years of service to their students and school districts contributed to higher final average salaries and, ultimately, greater retirement security — something all New Yorkers should have," he said.
More retirements are on the way. In the 2012-13 school year, nearly 13 percent of teachers were aged 57 to 64, so about one of out seven teachers were approaching retirement age, state records showed. Another 19 percent of teachers were aged 49 to 56.
The largest pension went to James Feltman, who retired in 2010 as superintendent of the Commack school district in Suffolk County. He collected $325,854 from the pension fund in 2013. That's just slightly more than Sheldon Larnilow from Half Hollow Hills on Long Island; he's receiving an annual pension of $322,650 since his 2011 retirement.
Nearly 2,300 people collected pensions of $100,000 or more. Seventy-one of them retired from the Central Islip schools in Suffolk County, the most of any district in the state.
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
Central Islip's retirees averaged $77,539. Retirees from the Syracuse district averaged $37,618, while the average pension for the 374 retirees from the Ithaca city school district is $33,618.
Among retirees in the city of Poughkeepsie schools, the average teacher pension was $45,185. It was about $43,000 in both Rochester and Buffalo city schools.
The average pension was less in the Southern Tier: about $39,000 in the Binghamton and Elmira city schools.
The increase in pensioners comes as the teachers' pension fund, which serves 277,000 active members and nearly 150,000 retirees, has been strained. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE
The state's Teachers' Retirement System missed its expected rate of return of 8 percent over the past five and 10 years. As a result, it has steadily increased contribution rates for school districts. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

Pension costs for the state's roughly 700 school districts ROSE 37 percent this school year, which started July 1, and will increase 8 percent next school year. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

The retirement system has defended its 8 percent rate of return, saying it's a long-term investor and it remains one of the best-funded plans in the nation.
But the increase in retirements has led to increases in payouts.
Between 1993 and last year, the system paid out four times more than what it took in: $17.5 billion came in from member and employer contributions and $73.2 billion was paid out in benefits. SO FOR OVER 20 TWENTY YEARS IT HAS PAID OUT 4 TIMES MORE THAN IT TOOK IN - SOON THAT PIGGY BANK WILL BE EMPTY...

E.J McMahon, president of the Empire Center for State Policy in Albany, said the teachers' pension system is hurt by its lofty rate of return estimates — requiring the system to recoup more from districts to make up the difference with its performance in recent years.
"This is a continuing game of catch up, and we're still not caught up," he said. "We may never be caught up."


AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

Posted by: Fart in the Wind

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 11:05 AM

http://www.wgrz.com/story/money/2014/07/11/teacher-pension-costs-new-york/12556819/

Quote:
Pension costs for the state's roughly 700 school districts ROSE 37 percent this school year, which started July 1, and will increase 8 percent next school year. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

...but it is not 37% of the total pension costs, it's 37% of the percent increase; for example if the districts cost was say 11%, a 37% increase would raise it to about 15%; an 8% increase of that would be about a 1.2% increase.

Quote:
Between 1993 and last year, the system paid out four times more than what it took in: $17.5 billion came in from member and employer contributions and $73.2 billion was paid out in benefits.
not including what you conveniently left out,
Quote:
What's kept the pension afloat is that the return on investment soared over 20 years: from $39 billion to $95 billion.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 11:45 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


you are aware that a 'teacher' gets 80% of their final salary for their pension
are you saying that after 30 years of 'teaching' that their final salary is around $50,000?

No.

I'm saying that, according to Gannett Databases "Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year."
http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york

Are YOU saying that you have verifiable evidence to the contrary? whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


The number of teachers and school administrators in New York collecting pensions increased 9 percent between 2010 and 2013, and the average pension grew 6.5 percent over that period, records show. Teacher pension records had been sealed by the retirement system amid a court fight over whether the details on individual pensioners should be public.
The state's highest court ruled in May that the information is public. The data reviewed by Gannett's Albany Bureau revealed new details about the number of teacher pension recipients in the state and how much they are receiving in retirement.
The pensions also varied significantly by region, ranging from an average of about $34,000 in Ithaca to $60,000 in Yonkers, where the cost of living is much higher, the data show.
A total of 147,156 individuals drew a pension from the Teachers Retirement System in 2013, up from 135,671 in 2010.
The New York State United Teachers union said there are a number of reasons why retirements are on the rise. Many teachers held off retiring during the recession in 2008 and 2009.
"As the economy recovers, it appears that New York's most senior teachers are now making the difficult decision to leave their students and retire," NYSUT spokesman Carl Korn said.
Some districts have offered early retirement incentives because of tough fiscal times, and Korn said some teachers have retired amid the controversy over new, tougher testing standards and teacher evaluations.
Korn said the increase in average teacher pensions is due mainly to older teachers retiring with decades in the system.
"The additional years of service to their students and school districts contributed to higher final average salaries and, ultimately, greater retirement security — something all New Yorkers should have," he said.
More retirements are on the way. In the 2012-13 school year, nearly 13 percent of teachers were aged 57 to 64, so about one of out seven teachers were approaching retirement age, state records showed. Another 19 percent of teachers were aged 49 to 56.
The largest pension went to James Feltman, who retired in 2010 as superintendent of the Commack school district in Suffolk County. He collected $325,854 from the pension fund in 2013. That's just slightly more than Sheldon Larnilow from Half Hollow Hills on Long Island; he's receiving an annual pension of $322,650 since his 2011 retirement.
Nearly 2,300 people collected pensions of $100,000 or more. Seventy-one of them retired from the Central Islip schools in Suffolk County, the most of any district in the state.
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
Central Islip's retirees averaged $77,539. Retirees from the Syracuse district averaged $37,618, while the average pension for the 374 retirees from the Ithaca city school district is $33,618.
Among retirees in the city of Poughkeepsie schools, the average teacher pension was $45,185. It was about $43,000 in both Rochester and Buffalo city schools.
The average pension was less in the Southern Tier: about $39,000 in the Binghamton and Elmira city schools.
The increase in pensioners comes as the teachers' pension fund, which serves 277,000 active members and nearly 150,000 retirees, has been strained. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE
The state's Teachers' Retirement System missed its expected rate of return of 8 percent over the past five and 10 years. As a result, it has steadily increased contribution rates for school districts. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

Pension costs for the state's roughly 700 school districts ROSE 37 percent this school year, which started July 1, and will increase 8 percent next school year. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

The retirement system has defended its 8 percent rate of return, saying it's a long-term investor and it remains one of the best-funded plans in the nation.
But the increase in retirements has led to increases in payouts.
Between 1993 and last year, the system paid out four times more than what it took in: $17.5 billion came in from member and employer contributions and $73.2 billion was paid out in benefits. SO FOR OVER 20 TWENTY YEARS IT HAS PAID OUT 4 TIMES MORE THAN IT TOOK IN - SOON THAT PIGGY BANK WILL BE EMPTY...

E.J McMahon, president of the Empire Center for State Policy in Albany, said the teachers' pension system is hurt by its lofty rate of return estimates — requiring the system to recoup more from districts to make up the difference with its performance in recent years.
"This is a continuing game of catch up, and we're still not caught up," he said. "We may never be caught up."

AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE


The number of teachers and school administrators in New York collecting pensions increased 9 percent between 2010 and 2013, and the average pension grew 6.5 percent over that period, records show. Teacher pension records had been sealed by the retirement system amid a court fight over whether the details on individual pensioners should be public.
The state's highest court ruled in May that the information is public. The data reviewed by Gannett's Albany Bureau revealed new details about the number of teacher pension recipients in the state and how much they are receiving in retirement.
The pensions also varied significantly by region, ranging from an average of about $34,000 in Ithaca to $60,000 in Yonkers, where the cost of living is much higher, the data show.
A total of 147,156 individuals drew a pension from the Teachers Retirement System in 2013, up from 135,671 in 2010.
The New York State United Teachers union said there are a number of reasons why retirements are on the rise. Many teachers held off retiring during the recession in 2008 and 2009.
"As the economy recovers, it appears that New York's most senior teachers are now making the difficult decision to leave their students and retire," NYSUT spokesman Carl Korn said.
Some districts have offered early retirement incentives because of tough fiscal times, and Korn said some teachers have retired amid the controversy over new, tougher testing standards and teacher evaluations.
Korn said the increase in average teacher pensions is due mainly to older teachers retiring with decades in the system.
"The additional years of service to their students and school districts contributed to higher final average salaries and, ultimately, greater retirement security — something all New Yorkers should have," he said.
More retirements are on the way. In the 2012-13 school year, nearly 13 percent of teachers were aged 57 to 64, so about one of out seven teachers were approaching retirement age, state records showed. Another 19 percent of teachers were aged 49 to 56.
The largest pension went to James Feltman, who retired in 2010 as superintendent of the Commack school district in Suffolk County. He collected $325,854 from the pension fund in 2013. That's just slightly more than Sheldon Larnilow from Half Hollow Hills on Long Island; he's receiving an annual pension of $322,650 since his 2011 retirement.
Nearly 2,300 people collected pensions of $100,000 or more. Seventy-one of them retired from the Central Islip schools in Suffolk County, the most of any district in the state.
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
Central Islip's retirees averaged $77,539. Retirees from the Syracuse district averaged $37,618, while the average pension for the 374 retirees from the Ithaca city school district is $33,618.
Among retirees in the city of Poughkeepsie schools, the average teacher pension was $45,185. It was about $43,000 in both Rochester and Buffalo city schools.
The average pension was less in the Southern Tier: about $39,000 in the Binghamton and Elmira city schools.
The increase in pensioners comes as the teachers' pension fund, which serves 277,000 active members and nearly 150,000 retirees, has been strained. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE
The state's Teachers' Retirement System missed its expected rate of return of 8 percent over the past five and 10 years. As a result, it has steadily increased contribution rates for school districts. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

Pension costs for the state's roughly 700 school districts ROSE 37 percent this school year, which started July 1, and will increase 8 percent next school year. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

The retirement system has defended its 8 percent rate of return, saying it's a long-term investor and it remains one of the best-funded plans in the nation.
But the increase in retirements has led to increases in payouts.
Between 1993 and last year, the system paid out four times more than what it took in: $17.5 billion came in from member and employer contributions and $73.2 billion was paid out in benefits. SO FOR OVER 20 TWENTY YEARS IT HAS PAID OUT 4 TIMES MORE THAN IT TOOK IN - SOON THAT PIGGY BANK WILL BE EMPTY...

E.J McMahon, president of the Empire Center for State Policy in Albany, said the teachers' pension system is hurt by its lofty rate of return estimates — requiring the system to recoup more from districts to make up the difference with its performance in recent years.
"This is a continuing game of catch up, and we're still not caught up," he said. "We may never be caught up."

AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

Even IF your math was right (and it's NOT)...

In what Bizarro Universe, does that possibly add up to $2,000,000 ? ? ? whistle
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 01:25 PM

Your looking at the overall average of all teachers including ones that retired after a few years, try this scenario : Teacher retires after 30 years lives another 30 years with a $60,000 pension (no contribution)+ health insurance = easily $2,000,000. Average non teacher with same education retires after 40 years if lucky O pension and lives off of whatever they could save in a 401k, which I said earlier would be very hard for someone to save $2,000,000 in being that it is mostly their own contributions.
Posted by: cwjga

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 02:33 PM

The way to look at the value of a teachers retirement is to look at what the cost is when the teacher is hired. If the school district was required to fund the teachers retirement when the teacher was hired the district would have to put about $2 million into an account in order to cover it.

In accounting terms a teacher becomes a millionaire the day they are hired.

By the way the district must account for that cost, the govt. just has not given them a way to account for the funding yet.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Your looking at the overall average of all teachers including ones that retired after a few years, try this scenario : Teacher retires after 30 years lives another 30 years with a $60,000 pension (no contribution)+ health insurance = easily $2,000,000. Average non teacher with same education retires after 40 years if lucky O pension and lives off of whatever they could save in a 401k, which I said earlier would be very hard for someone to save $2,000,000 in being that it is mostly their own contributions.

1) Can you think of ANY other way intelligent way to quantify teacher's salary costs, than to look at overall averages ? ? ? I mean... My God! crazy

2) Your "scenario" is utterly meaningless, because it's neither a "typical" case, NOR does it ultimately work out to be what it is that you're trying to play "make believe" with, and pretend that it's something that it ISN'T. The math simply does NOT reconcile. Period.

YIKES! eek
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 03:45 PM

Your wrong again.
Posted by: cwjga

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/06/14 03:52 PM

Originally Posted By: tubby
Your wrong again.


nothing surprising there whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/07/14 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Your looking at the overall average of all teachers including ones that retired after a few years, try this scenario : Teacher retires after 30 years lives another 30 years with a $60,000 pension (no contribution)+ health insurance = easily $2,000,000. Average non teacher with same education retires after 40 years if lucky O pension and lives off of whatever they could save in a 401k, which I said earlier would be very hard for someone to save $2,000,000 in being that it is mostly their own contributions.

1) Can you think of ANY other way intelligent way to quantify teacher's salary costs, than to look at overall averages ? ? ? I mean... My God! crazy


the government would require private companies to fully fund an employees pension each and every year

the private companies could not afford to do that and that is why they have eliminated pensions in the private sector

the 'teacher' pension system is a shell game because it is not fully funded each year.

when the school reserve funds run out in a few years you will see how drastic the situation will become

and cuomo tried to have the 'teachers' convert to a 401k to save their retirement but the 'teachers' refused

no more retirement at age 55 for the 'teachers' once the money is gone
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/07/14 07:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


average
you are aware that 'teachers' can get a penion after only 10 years

the reason the 'average' is $41,000 is because all 'teachers' getting a pension did not work 30 years

for you to get a true pension cost you would need to look at the 'teachers' that were 'employed' for 30 years

example
'teacher' starts job at $40,000
over a thirty period gets a 2%,3%,4%... raise each year
at the end of the thirty year period the 'teacher' is making $85,000 with raises

you take the $85,000 and multiply it by 80% which is $68,000 for their pension

$68,000 times a thirty year retirement (retirement at age 55) equals $2,004,000

so the 'teacher' gets $2,004,000 in pension without even putting in a penny into their retirement

they also get social security

timbo - show us any local private companies that even offer a pension....

YOU CAN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/07/14 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
1) Can you think of ANY other way intelligent way to quantify teacher's salary costs


$62,500 for salary - 30 years
$68,000 for pension - 30 years
$50,000 for healthcare - 30 years

$180,500 is the cost per year for a part time 'teacher'

about $145/hour

$5,415,000 overall

and timbo only paid 'his' employees $200 per hour with no benefits...LOL

timbo said he paid 'his' employees three times a 'teachers' pay
looks like he should have paid 'his' employees $435/hour
$145 x 3 = $435



Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/07/14 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Quote:
Pension costs for the state's roughly 700 school districts ROSE 37 percent this school year, which started July 1, and will increase 8 percent next school year. AND THE TAXPAYERS PAY MORE

...but it is not 37% of the total pension costs, it's 37% of the percent increase; for example if the districts cost was say 11%, a 37% increase would raise it to about 15%; an 8% increase of that would be about a 1.2% increase.


did the 'teachers' cover the 37% increase?
Posted by: bluezone

Re:state pension plan to fail - 08/07/14 08:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Fart in the Wind
Quote:
Between 1993 and last year, the system paid out four times more than what it took in: $17.5 billion came in from member and employer contributions and $73.2 billion was paid out in benefits.
not including what you conveniently left out,
Quote:
What's kept the pension afloat is that the return on investment soared over 20 years: from $39 billion to $95 billion.


the 20 years the pension fund increased was a time where the markets were inflated
you are dreaming if you think you will see a market like that in the future

$73.2 billion has been paid out so the $95 billion has lost most of it value

it will be impossible to make that money back

you will have to convert to a 401k if you even want a retirement in the future


Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/07/14 11:40 AM


OMG!

Where to begin...

1) Teachers did NOT make that kind of money in the early-mid 80s.

2) Teachers do NOT average that kind of money even now.

3) I NEVER said that I paid my freelancers $200 per hour.

4) ALL the rest of your calculations are grossly flawed.

5) You ARE a disingenuous, maker-upper of "facts".
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/07/14 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: tubby
Your looking at the overall average of all teachers including ones that retired after a few years, try this scenario : Teacher retires after 30 years lives another 30 years with a $60,000 pension (no contribution)+ health insurance = easily $2,000,000. Average non teacher with same education retires after 40 years if lucky O pension and lives off of whatever they could save in a 401k, which I said earlier would be very hard for someone to save $2,000,000 in being that it is mostly their own contributions.

1) Can you think of ANY other way intelligent way to quantify teacher's salary costs, than to look at overall averages ? ? ? I mean... My God! crazy


the government would require private companies to fully fund an employees pension each and every year

the private companies could not afford to do that and that is why they have eliminated pensions in the private sector

the 'teacher' pension system is a shell game because it is not fully funded each year.

when the school reserve funds run out in a few years you will see how drastic the situation will become

and cuomo tried to have the 'teachers' convert to a 401k to save their retirement but the 'teachers' refused

no more retirement at age 55 for the 'teachers' once the money is gone

BS!

Pensions are FULLY fundable by almost any company that employs, let's say... 300 workers or more. It's the runaway pay packages of the upper echelon of modern corporations that are to blame for any "theoretical" pension insolvencies. Back on the 50s and 60s, CEOs earned about 8 times the average pay of the general work force. Today, it's not unheard of for them to make HUNDREDS of time that.

As you're fond of saying... Do The Math!

The private sector is certainly no Beacon on the Hill, when it comes to representing a positive example of worker's standards. Not by ANY stretch.

Also... let's be sure to give due credit to the banking industry that started these sleazy practices, in the first place.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/08/14 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo

OMG!

Where to begin...

1) Teachers did NOT make that kind of money in the early-mid 80s.

who said they did...

Originally Posted By: Timbo

2) Teachers do NOT average that kind of money even now.


so tell us the average salary for a 30 year 'teacher'?

Originally Posted By: Timbo


3) I NEVER said that I paid my freelancers $200 per hour.


so tell what you paid them?

Originally Posted By: Timbo

4) ALL the rest of your calculations are grossly flawed.


tell us the pension of a 30 year 'teacher'? (it is much higher than the $41,000 you claim)
tell us the healthcare costs (health, dental, vision...) for 60 years for a 'teacher'. The 'teacher' gets 30 years of healthcare during their 'career' and then they get another 30 years in retirment.

Originally Posted By: Timbo

5) You ARE a disingenuous, maker-upper of "facts".


show us 'your' numbers

you have already proven that the average 'teacher' gets $41,000 in pension - not bad for a part time job and only 15 years of 'service'. You add that to the salary and they are making much more than any other job. Factor in their healthcare costs for 60 years and you come up with a substantial amount of money that the taxpayers pay.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/08/14 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: cwjga
The way to look at the value of a teachers retirement is to look at what the cost is when the teacher is hired. If the school district was required to fund the teachers retirement when the teacher was hired the district would have to put about $2 million into an account in order to cover it.

In accounting terms a teacher becomes a millionaire the day they are hired.


timbo has proven that fact without out even knowing it wink

timbo posted that the average 'teacher' gets $41,000 in pension
$41,000 x 30 (years of retirement) = $1,230,000

we all know that a 30 year 'teacher' gets a much higher pension than $41,000

THANK YOU TIMBO FOR PROVING YOURSELF WRONG AGAIN

timbo - do not forget the healthcare costs provided by the taxpayers over 60 years...

Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/09/14 01:06 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: cwjga
The way to look at the value of a teachers retirement is to look at what the cost is when the teacher is hired. If the school district was required to fund the teachers retirement when the teacher was hired the district would have to put about $2 million into an account in order to cover it.

In accounting terms a teacher becomes a millionaire the day they are hired.


timbo has proven that fact without out even knowing it wink

timbo posted that the average 'teacher' gets $41,000 in pension
$41,000 x 30 (years of retirement) = $1,230,000

we all know that a 30 year 'teacher' gets a much higher pension than $41,000

THANK YOU TIMBO FOR PROVING YOURSELF WRONG AGAIN

timbo - do not forget the healthcare costs provided by the taxpayers over 60 years...

The Stupid is [b]Strong with THIS one, Obi-Wan Kenobe.[/b]
(Que the sound of laughing Accountants, all across the internet) grin
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/09/14 08:26 AM

are you saying that $41,000 x 30 does not equal $1,230,000?

---- and you stayed up until 2 am to make your foolish post crazy
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/09/14 08:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Pensions are FULLY fundable by almost any company that employs, let's say... 300 workers or more.


then there is no reason to offer a pension to the 'teachers' in the local schools because there is less than 300 in a school

care to add another 'qualifier'?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/09/14 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/09/14 10:17 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?



Bluezone , please take the time to figure out your personal total package including your pension, 401K which more than likely your employer contribute/match, paid vacation, maternity/sick pay, dental, vision and employer contributed healthcare. What's the chances that we're up around several thousand more dollars than you're too hypocritical to admit. whistle
I personally know many retiree who's gone back to work solely for benefits with salary being a secondary concern.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/12/14 07:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?



Bluezone , please take the time to figure out your personal total package including your pension, 401K which more than likely your employer contribute/match, paid vacation, maternity/sick pay, dental, vision and employer contributed healthcare.


have you not followed this entire thread?
there are not any employers in the local area that offer a pension even close to the lavish ones a 'teacher' gets

timbo stated only employers with over 300 employees would be able to offer a pension
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Pensions are FULLY fundable by almost any company that employs, let's say... 300 workers or more.


here is your challenge:
list all the local companies that offer a pension as generous as those offered to a 'teacher'


Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/12/14 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


getting $41,752 for a pension when the current retirees paid zero into their pension

timbo can you tell us where that money came from?

here are your 4 choices

1) taxpayers
2) taxpayers
3) taxpayers
4) taxpayers

try not to get it wrong....


remember it is all about the students 'teachers'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/12/14 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
I personally know many retiree who's gone back to work solely for benefits with salary being a secondary concern.


were any of those that returned to work for benefits a former 'teacher'?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/12/14 08:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?



Bluezone , please take the time to figure out your personal total package including your pension, 401K which more than likely your employer contribute/match, paid vacation, maternity/sick pay, dental, vision and employer contributed healthcare.


you can elimate pensions for other workers so the 'teacher' has a higher pay package

if an employer does offer a 401k then the employer only contributes at best 10% not 100% employer contribution like the current 'teacher' retirees

there are no other employees that get a paid 2 months off for summer, a paid week off for thanksgiving, two paid weeks off for winter recess/new years, a paid week off for presidents week recess, a paid week off for spring recess and all the other holidays

the 'teachers' get more paid sick days off and they can bank for cash later

there are no employers to offer dental/vision to the high degree and lifetime coverage as a 'teacher'

if other employers offered lifetime full healthcare as the 'teachers get then there would be no need for obamacare
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/13/14 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Bluezone , please take the time to figure out your personal total package including your pension,


here is your challenge:
list all the local companies that offer a pension as generous as those offered to a 'teacher'




Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/13/14 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.


Bluezone , please take the time to figure out your personal total package including your pension,



Originally Posted By: Formermac
Lets do that, being that funding to our public schools in the U.S. are Governmental contributed to the tune of 10 cents to every dollar being spent on K-12 education. Wonder how those individuals without children or their offspring having graduated high school decades ago deem that fair.


you are aware that you are paying for the 'teachers' lavish benefits
hope you are not complaining about school taxes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/15/14 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.

if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

Bluezone , please take the time to figure out your personal total package including your pension,


you are aware that taxpayers pay for the 'teachers' pension

would you like the tell us where the $1,230,000 pension for the $41,000 'teacher' retiree comes from?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/15/14 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Timbo]Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?


if the 'teacher'(family plan) gets a taxpayer funded $20,000 healthcare coverage(health, dental,vision...) per year then their pay is $81,752 + $20,000 = $101,752

can you name any other part time job that pays that amount?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/15/14 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
can you name any other part time job that pays that amount?

Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs? whistle

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/part-time-employees/
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/workhours/full-time.htm
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
can you name any other part time job that pays that amount?

Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?


do they all not get the summers off?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

here is your challenge:
list all the local companies that offer a pension as generous as those offered to a 'teacher'



where is your list timbo?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Timbo]Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?


if the 'teacher'(family plan) gets a taxpayer funded $20,000 healthcare coverage(health, dental,vision...) per year then their pay is $81,752 + $20,000 = $101,752


another worker making $40,000 per year without a pension would have to fund their own retirement at $17,000 per year ($1,230,000 over 30 years)

so if they are making $40,000 and have to pay out of their own pocket $17,000 then they are only making $23,000

that is even before you factor in their healthcare costs

so a part time 'teachers' makes $101,752 while the other worker only gets $23,000 before their healthcare costs are factored in
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 10:01 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
can you name any other part time job that pays that amount?
Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?
do they all not get the summers off?

Do you NOT know how to read?

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/part-time-employees/
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/workhours/full-time.htm [/quote]
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 10:11 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Timbo]Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?
if the 'teacher'(family plan) gets a taxpayer funded $20,000 healthcare coverage(health, dental,vision...) per year then their pay is $81,752 + $20,000 = $101,752
another worker making $40,000 per year without a pension would have to fund their own retirement at $17,000 per year ($1,230,000 over 30 years). So if they are making $40,000 and have to pay out of their own pocket $17,000 then they are only making $23,000. That is even before you factor in their healthcare costs

so a part time 'teachers' makes $101,752 while the other worker only gets $23,000 before their healthcare costs are factored in

Those are grossly inaccurate assumptions, not only as it relates to cost, but also in terms policy type and availability as well. Unless you can provide the individual plans, rate-over-time, deductibles, shared-costs, individual treatments, specific payouts, duration and investment returns, your speculations are precisely just that.

Meaningless.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

here is your challenge:
list all the local companies that offer a pension as generous as those offered to a 'teacher'
where is your list timbo?

Name 10 local private companies that require the same education, scheduling, (after) work hours, duties, responsibilities and ever-ongoing training.

Where's YOURS?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Timbo]Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?
if the 'teacher'(family plan) gets a taxpayer funded $20,000 healthcare coverage(health, dental,vision...) per year then their pay is $81,752 + $20,000 = $101,752
another worker making $40,000 per year without a pension would have to fund their own retirement at $17,000 per year ($1,230,000 over 30 years). So if they are making $40,000 and have to pay out of their own pocket $17,000 then they are only making $23,000. That is even before you factor in their healthcare costs

so a part time 'teachers' makes $101,752 while the other worker only gets $23,000 before their healthcare costs are factored in

Those are grossly inaccurate assumptions,


you posted that a retired 'teacher' gets a $41,752 pension
are you now backtracking from that?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Timbo]Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?
if the 'teacher'(family plan) gets a taxpayer funded $20,000 healthcare coverage(health, dental,vision...) per year then their pay is $81,752 + $20,000 = $101,752
another worker making $40,000 per year without a pension would have to fund their own retirement at $17,000 per year ($1,230,000 over 30 years). So if they are making $40,000 and have to pay out of their own pocket $17,000 then they are only making $23,000. That is even before you factor in their healthcare costs

so a part time 'teachers' makes $101,752 while the other worker only gets $23,000 before their healthcare costs are factored in

Those are grossly inaccurate assumptions,


so tell us how much a non-pension employee would have to set aside each month over 30 years to get a $41,752 retirement ($1,230,000)

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Timbo]Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
if a 'teacher' starts out making $40,000 and you add the average $41,752 pension pay out then that would equal $81,752 per year for a part time job.

timbo tell us how much a family healthcare (health, dental, vision..) plan is per month?
if the 'teacher'(family plan) gets a taxpayer funded $20,000 healthcare coverage(health, dental,vision...) per year then their pay is $81,752 + $20,000 = $101,752
another worker making $40,000 per year without a pension would have to fund their own retirement at $17,000 per year ($1,230,000 over 30 years). So if they are making $40,000 and have to pay out of their own pocket $17,000 then they are only making $23,000. That is even before you factor in their healthcare costs

so a part time 'teachers' makes $101,752 while the other worker only gets $23,000 before their healthcare costs are factored in

Those are grossly inaccurate assumptions,


so tell us what a family plan would cost per month that covers healthcare, vision, dental...?

Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
can you name any other part time job that pays that amount?

Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?


do they all not get the summers off?

You've stated that they all have part time jobs, and then stated in s separate thread that they all have free summer vacations. Which is it?

(A clue for the clueless... they are not paid for the summer months, which means it isn't a vacation).
Posted by: Josephus

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 11:48 AM

No... which means they aren't getting a summer vacation.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/16/14 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?

(A clue for the clueless... they are not paid for the summer months, which means it isn't a vacation).


timbo - it appears that josephus has just proven it is a part time job
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 08/21/14 07:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if there are currently 150,000 retirees and each gets an average of $41,752 then

150,000 x $41,752 = $6,262,800,000 outflow each year

timbo - would you like to tell us how long before the 'teachers' pension fund is depleted?



Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 09/17/14 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if there are currently 150,000 retirees and each gets an average of $41,752 then

150,000 x $41,752 = $6,262,800,000 outflow each year

timbo - would you like to tell us how long before the 'teachers' pension fund is depleted?


those numbers too large for you to offer a reply?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/01/14 07:48 AM

have you paid your school taxes yet?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/01/14 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if there are currently 150,000 retirees and each gets an average of $41,752 then

150,000 x $41,752 = $6,262,800,000 outflow each year

timbo - would you like to tell us how long before the 'teachers' pension fund is depleted?


those numbers too large for you to offer a reply?


Those numbers are large indeed but your lack of the basic concept of retirement is so convoluted, it's no wonder that you speak first and continue to speak due to the ignorance of not educating yourself.

Fact: Teachers contribute to their retirement and earn a pensions with every paycheck they receive.
by contributing each pay period during employment, 9% of a their salary. Similarly to you and I contributing to our Social Security. While you do your math sequences, find out how much you of yourself contributed toward that benefit and what's the potential that you'll get back far more than you put in.....math is math...... simply throwing numbers out there is just shear irresponsibility.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/01/14 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?

(A clue for the clueless... they are not paid for the summer months, which means it isn't a vacation).

timbo - it appears that josephus has just proven it is a part time job

Only in the minds of the dimwitted who constantly need to be reminded that virtually every definition (legal or otherwise) of the term "part time", is based solely upon the hours worked per week and NOTHING else.

Even MORE so, in situations where a contract is in place.

Enjoy your Crack.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if there are currently 150,000 retirees and each gets an average of $41,752 then

150,000 x $41,752 = $6,262,800,000 outflow each year

timbo - would you like to tell us how long before the 'teachers' pension fund is depleted?


those numbers too large for you to offer a reply?


Those numbers are large indeed but your lack of the basic concept of retirement is so convoluted, it's no wonder that you speak first and continue to speak due to the ignorance of not educating yourself.

Fact: Teachers contribute to their retirement and earn a pensions with every paycheck they receive.
by contributing each pay period during employment, 9% of a their salary.


and what tier would there be a 9% contribution?

tiers 1 to 6 the contribution ranges from 0% up to only 3%

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Fact: Teachers contribute to their retirement and earn a pensions with every paycheck they receive.
by contributing each pay period during employment, 9% of a their salary.


Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


see formermac only 3%
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?

(A clue for the clueless... they are not paid for the summer months, which means it isn't a vacation).

timbo - it appears that josephus has just proven it is a part time job

Only in the minds of the dimwitted who constantly need to be reminded that virtually every definition (legal or otherwise) of the term "part time", is based solely upon the hours worked per week and NOTHING else.


you are aware that the hours per week of a 'teacher' also places them as a 'part time' job
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:08 AM

I really don't know where to began with you seeing that comprehension is not one of your strong points. I possess a home desktop PC, laptop,Ipad and Iphone, all capable of obtaining data and info from innumerable sources, it's obvious that you're here thus confirming the fact that you own some form of technological communication device. Your repeated questions can be easily obtained by the same means I received them...either by research or personally knowing those with the facts.......having a Mom(now deceased) who taught in the Ithaca school district for 32 years before retiring, her sister taught in North Carolina for 30 plus...all alludes to not the fact of defending teachers but the fact that you display a great deal of ignorance. Teachers did not always make $70,000 dollars a years....more like $5000-6000 annually as a tier 1, their contribution minimally equates to a pension of several hundred dollars a month at best. Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors who by the way made very little period. Factoring your contribution percentage along with for the sake of argument, 30 years of service ,most of those tier 1,2,3 teachers are either dead or making possibly $15,000 a year in pension...it's incumbent on you to prove otherwise based on facts adverse to a thousand questions like that of a whiny 2 year old.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors


just tell us the percentage that each tier had to contribute
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
I really don't know where to began with you seeing that comprehension is not one of your strong points. I possess a home desktop PC, laptop,Ipad and Iphone, all capable of obtaining data


and yet you are still not able to offer your 'employees' a pension

whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Teachers did not always make $70,000 dollars a years


not bad for a part time job with full healthcare and pension benefits

will you be offering your 'employees' the same perks?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:34 AM

Don't construe this as a put down but how much did you make annually over years? It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor, in this case, teachers who are required to obtain their Masters within a windowed time frame. Most professional salaries are commensurable with education and experience, why in God's name would they place themselves at the bottom of the heap because you and others say so? Now this is where I hold no sympathy for you, if you think that every profession's salary should be dictated by your limited mentality and possible jealousy you'll have a long agitated life , if that's not the case presently.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors who by the way made very little period. Factoring your contribution percentage along with for the sake of argument, 30 years of service ,most of those tier 1,2,3 teachers are either dead or making possibly $15,000 a year in pension...it's incumbent on you to prove otherwise based on facts adverse to a thousand questions like that of a whiny 2 year old.


do you not like timbos 'facts'?

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I really don't know where to began with you seeing that comprehension is not one of your strong points. I possess a home desktop PC, laptop,Ipad and Iphone, all capable of obtaining data


and yet you are still not able to offer your 'employees' a pension

whistle



LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.

Vacation, 401 K, employee healthcare along with dental care and finally, a pension once they're vested. BTW: all the following are a financial windfall for myself as well being the fact that......they are tax write-offs....Yep we had this conversation but you're just being yourself....... a royal pain in the posterior. whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor


are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac

LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.

employee healthcare along with dental care and finally, a pension once they're vested.


did you not sign up your 'employees' for obamacare?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors who by the way made very little period. Factoring your contribution percentage along with for the sake of argument, 30 years of service ,most of those tier 1,2,3 teachers are either dead or making possibly $15,000 a year in pension...it's incumbent on you to prove otherwise based on facts adverse to a thousand questions like that of a whiny 2 year old.


do you not like timbos 'facts'?

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.




Timbo's facts coincide with you are being told.....key phrase for the slow in comprehension(you) 2012-2013 yep...salaries are increasing for those educated and skilled enough to earn them. A assembly line in an cosmetic factory, wearing a mesh hat & rubber glove appears to be the area in which you subsided on for years.......be proud that you made an honest living but don't knock those that did better for themselves.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors who by the way made very little period. Factoring your contribution percentage along with for the sake of argument, 30 years of service ,most of those tier 1,2,3 teachers are either dead or making possibly $15,000 a year in pension...it's incumbent on you to prove otherwise based on facts adverse to a thousand questions like that of a whiny 2 year old.


do you not like timbos 'facts'?

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.




Timbo's facts coincide with you are being told.....key phrase for the slow in comprehension(you) 2012-2013 yep...


would you like to tell us what a 'teachers' total contribution is into their pension if they contribute 3% for the first ten years only?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors who by the way made very little period. Factoring your contribution percentage along with for the sake of argument, 30 years of service ,most of those tier 1,2,3 teachers are either dead or making possibly $15,000 a year in pension...it's incumbent on you to prove otherwise based on facts adverse to a thousand questions like that of a whiny 2 year old.


do you not like timbos 'facts'?

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.




Timbo's facts coincide with you are being told.....key phrase for the slow in comprehension(you) 2012-2013 yep...salaries are increasing for those educated and skilled enough to earn them.


is that why the 'teachers' union fought against 'teacher' evaluations?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor


are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?



None whatsoever, I'm implying that many young people have a choice of doing humanitarian work which is an accomplishment within itself not emphasizing a high salary or they make a concerted decision to direct their future career commanding a high salary along with potential added perks, keeping in mind, what markets are already flooded with an over abundance of candidates. I work in the electrical field and we can't get enough people to satisfy the demand, especially women, thus making a large starting salary the standard. In your research, look up the following profession's starting salaries.

Home builders
Plumbers
Home Re modelers
Electricians
Truck Drivers
Welding
Machinists

Note: they can can be had by completing vocational training courses adverse to an expensive college degree.
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k


Incorrect, you foolishly exposed your ignorance by construing that I knew not the difference between a 401 K and a pension. Your Bad
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I really don't know where to began with you seeing that comprehension is not one of your strong points. I possess a home desktop PC, laptop,Ipad and Iphone, all capable of obtaining data


and yet you are still not able to offer your 'employees' a pension

whistle



LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.

Vacation, 401 K, employee healthcare along with dental care and finally, a pension once they're vested.


do you offer your 'employees' 3 paid months off per year?
do you offer a pension that your 'employees' only contribute 3% for the first ten years?
do you offer your 'employees' retirement at age 55?
do you offer your 'employees' full healthcare at retirement?
...
...
...

of course not...
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:20 AM

Tell me about yourself first and I'll give in depth details of what I actually offer.

Where did you work and for how long?
Do you hold a degree or possess any special skills or trade?
Do you still work or are you now retired?
Do you receive Social Security
Do you receive Medicare/Medicaid
Do you receive a monthly pension and from who?
Were you fired or laid off?
How many jobs did you hold over the course of your career?
Lastly.....did you ever hold a job for any length of time warranting being vested or receiving a pension?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Each tier member after 1973 is required to contribute much more versus than their predecessors


just tell us the percentage that each tier had to contribute

curious to find out where you came up with 9%
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:30 AM

I'm waiting.............I'm waiting......it appears that your adolescent inquiries are faster than your uneducated responses.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k


Incorrect, you foolishly exposed your ignorance by construing that I knew not the difference between a 401 K and a pension.


care to offer up your prior post in regards to that?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:39 AM

FUUUUUUNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYY Blue has an hearing impediment, along with a keypad that only ask questions but is incapable of responding.... being the expert that I am, maybe I can can rectify that problem so we can mutually communicate in an matured manner. We taught our children at a young age to response when talked to and that parental trait was even passed on to our Grands...the youngest being 4 years old. Now if you can't accommodate the most simplest and basic fundamental commands, how are you to dialogue with anyone? confused
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k


Incorrect, you foolishly exposed your ignorance by construing that I knew not the difference between a 401 K and a pension.


care to offer up your prior post in regards to that?



Care to offer up a post in regard to your wor....never mind....we've been through this before......I hate using you as entertainment but I do get bored as of the last few months. See I broke my femur in a car accident last fall and foolishly went back to work prematurely 2 times thus causing 2 minor surgeries. I missed my European cruise last December but now keep my butt still so I can take it due to insurance allowing me to put it off for a year. So I have time to listen to your responses but little to answer foolish questions.....Something tells me that you may have dropped out of high school due to what? Pregnancy, lack of academia...I'm just kidding but you do have a narrowed and limited communication problem.....can't imagine what a verbal dialogue in my wildest dreams would be like.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?
(A clue for the clueless... they are not paid for the summer months, which means it isn't a vacation).
timbo - it appears that josephus has just proven it is a part time job
Only in the minds of the dimwitted who constantly need to be reminded that virtually every definition (legal or otherwise) of the term "part time", is based solely upon the hours worked per week and NOTHING else.
you are aware that the hours per week of a 'teacher' also places them as a 'part time' job

Uhhh... you ARE aware that you're completely full of Horse Hockey, aren't you?

Survey - Teachers Work 53 Hours Per Week on Average:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answ...GxYGS_blog.html


Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor

are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?

Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational, scheduling, overtime, attendance, planning, performance, administrative, conduct and social responsibility requirements as that of TEACHERS.

Obviously, your own teachers were the exception. grin

I have to ask, did you even graduate school? If so, what was your GPA? If not... GO AWAY.
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/02/14 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k


Incorrect, you foolishly exposed your ignorance by construing that I knew not the difference between a 401 K and a pension.


care to offer up your prior post in regards to that?




#1441605 - 03/26/14 10:44 AM Re: ARROGANT TEACHERS [Re: bluezone]

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
How about the fact


did you ever figure out if you offered your employees a 401k or pension?

do not bother as it is clearly obvious you lack basic understanding of a pension


LMAO, I was wondering why I've been receiving this windfall every month as well as why did I take a large chunk of money when I retired and rolled it over to another account.
crazy



You ask me to archive our conversation in regard to 401 K and pensions
Hopefully this will suffice.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k


Incorrect, you foolishly exposed your ignorance by construing that I knew not the difference between a 401 K and a pension.


care to offer up your prior post in regards to that?




#1441605 - 03/26/14 10:44 AM Re: ARROGANT TEACHERS [Re: bluezone]

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
How about the fact


did you ever figure out if you offered your employees a 401k or pension?

do not bother as it is clearly obvious you lack basic understanding of a pension


LMAO, I was wondering why I've been receiving this windfall every month as well as why did I take a large chunk of money when I retired and rolled it over to another account.
crazy

You ask me to archive our conversation in regard to 401 K and pensions
Hopefully this will suffice.


your post does not indicate that you offer your 'employees' a pension but rather that you receive a pension

two different situations
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor

are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?

Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational, scheduling, overtime, attendance, planning, performance, administrative, conduct and social responsibility requirements as that of TEACHERS.

What, no comment?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Can you show us how many teachers have part time jobs?
(A clue for the clueless... they are not paid for the summer months, which means it isn't a vacation).
timbo - it appears that josephus has just proven it is a part time job
Only in the minds of the dimwitted who constantly need to be reminded that virtually every definition (legal or otherwise) of the term "part time", is based solely upon the hours worked per week and NOTHING else.
you are aware that the hours per week of a 'teacher' also places them as a 'part time' job

Uhhh... you ARE aware that you're completely full of Horse Hockey, aren't you?

Survey - Teachers Work 53 Hours Per Week on Average:


their contract reflects much lower hours
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor

are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor

are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?


Are you suggesting that you should be responded to to when you've failed to answer the questions pose to you......I'm not that "generous" in regard to you. In my line of work, we call that a diode or check valve...incapable of moving in both directions.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Survey - Teachers Work 53 Hours Per Week on Average:
their contract reflects much lower hours

And they are nowhere NEAR as few as you claim.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
It would be to your best interest to educate(no pun intended) yourself and research the average income of professionals who are required to hold a degree no less than a bachelor
are you suggesting that every individual that holds a degree gets a generous pension from their employer?

Are you suggesting that you should be responded to to when you've failed to answer the questions pose to you......I'm not that "generous" in regard to you. In my line of work, we call that a diode or check valve...incapable of moving in both directions.

"Diode"... PERFECT! grin
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational,

Maybe he should have suggested Timbo has trouble mastering the "Caps Lock" key confused
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:22 PM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational,

Maybe he should have suggested Timbo has trouble mastering the "Caps Lock" key confused


the CAP key places emphasis or highlights a given word or phrase....now tell me, do you know what a DIODE is without the benefit of Google? laugh
In this case I place CAPS on every letter you've just post being that it has no relevance to the subject but hey this is your normal mode of operation, blurting out and high jacking in attempt to satisfy your need for displaying your lack thereof.
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational,
Maybe he should have suggested Timbo has trouble mastering the "Caps Lock" key confused
the CAP key places emphasis or highlights a given word or phrase....

Don't raise your voice, improve your argument." - Desmond Tutu
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational,
Maybe he should have suggested Timbo has trouble mastering the "Caps Lock" key confused
the CAP key places emphasis or highlights a given word or phrase....

Don't raise your voice, improve your argument." - Desmond Tutu


While you continue to derail a 401 K topic and further show you true self and ignorance.

Try this quote and while at it....what's the guarantee that your outbursts are uncontrollable? I'll wait

Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.
Marcus Aurelius


Now back to our regularly scheduled topic if Sands can control his urges.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:47 PM


I don't think a diminished intellect qualifies as an "urge". grin
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are YOU suggesting that ANY job has the SAME educational,
Maybe he should have suggested Timbo has trouble mastering the "Caps Lock" key confused
the CAP key places emphasis or highlights a given word or phrase....

Don't raise your voice, improve your argument." - Desmond Tutu

Wise words from someone who uses such large text in virtually every post. whistle
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 12:55 PM

Not only large text but more billboard signs here than I saw between Naples New York state and Cranberry PA. last weekend. laugh
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/03/14 01:55 PM


And his lips move when he types "fancy" words. grin

Now then... where were we?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
In my line of work, we call that a diode or check valve...incapable of moving in both directions.


sounds like you and the 'teachers'
whistle
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Survey - Teachers Work 53 Hours Per Week on Average:
their contract reflects much lower hours

And they are nowhere NEAR as few as you claim.


highly doubt you factored in the months of time the 'teachers' are on vacation during the summer and all the weeks off they have during the school year

part time...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOL.....I told you months ago that every conceivable perk you can think of, my employees benefits from.


incorrect
you stated you offer them a 401k


Incorrect, you foolishly exposed your ignorance by construing that I knew not the difference between a 401 K and a pension.


care to offer up your prior post in regards to that?




#1441605 - 03/26/14 10:44 AM Re: ARROGANT TEACHERS [Re: bluezone]

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
How about the fact


did you ever figure out if you offered your employees a 401k or pension?

do not bother as it is clearly obvious you lack basic understanding of a pension


LMAO, I was wondering why I've been receiving this windfall every month as well as why did I take a large chunk of money when I retired and rolled it over to another account.
crazy

You ask me to archive our conversation in regard to 401 K and pensions
Hopefully this will suffice.


your post does not indicate that you offer your 'employees' a pension but rather that you receive a pension

two different situations



interesting that both you and timbo do not offer pensions to your 'employees'

speaks volumes...

convert the 'teachers' to a 401k
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac

LMAO,


good to see that you lowered your school taxes with the rebates
heaven forbid that you pay more into the 'teachers' benefit packages
lol
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac

LMAO,


good to see that you lowered your school taxes with the rebates
heaven forbid that you pay more into the 'teachers' benefit packages
lol



I have a premise, something happen negatively between you and someone in the field of education, this prevented you from obtaining the educational tools to do well for yourself financially, thus the reasons for your poor attitude overall. It's also apparent that if you have children, they weren't taught proper manners in answering when spoken to. Lastly, your rambling about employee perks? your obvious display of ignorance does not allow common sense to prevail in regard to retaining good employees, the smart talented one know that they possess skills that your company is greatly in need of and if you're to keep them, one must be willing to make concessions, namely perks.....such as healthcare and savings for their future such as 401K and Pensions.....ALL which I give.....forgive my impatience but you seem rather dense in the comprehension area as well as it being predicated that everything being spelled out line by line due to your inability to read between the line......To the kids out there.....Blue is a prime example as to why we need to stay in school.
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
your obvious display of ignorance does not allow common sense to prevail in regard to retaining good employees, the smart talented one know that they possess skills that your company is greatly in need of and if you're to keep them, one must be willing to make concessions, namely perks.....such as healthcare and savings for their future such as 401K and Pensions.....ALL which I give.....forgive my impatience but you seem rather dense in the comprehension area as well as it being predicated that everything being spelled out line by line due to your inability to read between the line......To the kids out there.....Blue is a prime example as to why we need to stay in school.

A new record of bigotry in a single sentence shocked
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Wise words from someone who uses such large text in virtually every post.

As I have explained many times, the distinctive font is so if when I am banned, it will be easy to recognize my return wink
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Formermac
your obvious display of ignorance does not allow common sense to prevail in regard to retaining good employees, the smart talented one know that they possess skills that your company is greatly in need of and if you're to keep them, one must be willing to make concessions, namely perks.....such as healthcare and savings for their future such as 401K and Pensions.....ALL which I give.....forgive my impatience but you seem rather dense in the comprehension area as well as it being predicated that everything being spelled out line by line due to your inability to read between the line......To the kids out there.....Blue is a prime example as to why we need to stay in school.

A new record of bigotry in a single sentence shocked


You wouldn't know bigotry if it lived in your very mind.......maybe you'll figure that one out. laugh
BTW: Do you have a self esteem problem and feel relegated to correct everyone in order to feel better about yourself?....talking about someone that derails any topic just to interject their own stupidity and ignorance.


stu·pid

adjective
1.
lacking intelligence or common sense.
"I was stupid enough to think she was perfect"
synonyms: unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish; More

Being that I've already provided a definition of Bigot, it's safe to say that you can add this adjective to describe your mannerism and personality seeing that you have difficulty distinguishing between the two.
Can't wait for your attempt at bridging or linking singular low intellect and assuming that all people from a certain group possess that trait..... confused
but while in that attempt, stay cognitive of the fact that this is a 401K topic.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Wise words from someone who uses such large text in virtually every post.

As I have explained many times, the distinctive font is so if when I am banned, it will be easy to recognize my return wink

No need, the sudden and dramatic drop in the forum's average I.Q. standings will be a dead giveaway.

Example: It's a typestyle, NOT a font. wink wink (double wink)
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Example: It's a typestyle, NOT a font.


Whatever you say, oh racist one....


FONT:
"an assortment or set of type or characters all of one style and sometimes one size"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/font

"a font is a particular size, weight and style of a typeface."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font

"A complete set of type of one size and face."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/font

"a complete assortment of type of one style and size."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/font


Must be why it shows as [font:Comic Sans MS] in the HTML code confused
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac

LMAO,


good to see that you lowered your school taxes with the rebates
heaven forbid that you pay more into the 'teachers' benefit packages
lol



I have a premise, something happen negatively between you and someone in the field of education, this prevented you from obtaining the educational tools to do well for yourself financially, thus the reasons for your poor attitude overall. It's also apparent that if you have children, they weren't taught proper manners in answering when spoken to. Lastly, your rambling about employee perks? your obvious display of ignorance does not allow common sense to prevail in regard to retaining good employees, the smart talented one know that they possess skills that your company is greatly in need of and if you're to keep them, one must be willing to make concessions, namely perks.....such as healthcare and savings for their future such as 401K and Pensions.....ALL which I give.....forgive my impatience but you seem rather dense in the comprehension area as well as it being predicated that everything being spelled out line by line due to your inability to read between the line......To the kids out there.....Blue is a prime example as to why we need to stay in school.


would you like to explain to everyone why you take the tax reductions as it applies to your school taxes?

you do realize you are hurting the 'teachers'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


do you still stand by your position that 'teachers' pay 9% into their pensions?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


do you still stand by your position that 'teachers' pay 9% into their pensions?




If I told you that once again your ignorance was showing, would you consider for a moment the possibility that you should ascertain data before putting yourself out there like this. I'll give you a few hints in your search.....I live in Cranberry Township PA. and I'm 58 years old. Once you get back with me, we can deal with the plethora of questions that seems to have no clear line of thinking or intelligent pattern being the fact that you jump all over the map.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


do you still stand by your position that 'teachers' pay 9% into their pensions?



If I told you that once again your ignorance was showing, would you consider for a moment the possibility that you should ascertain data before putting yourself out there like this.


are you now backtracking from the 9% claim?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


do you still stand by your position that 'teachers' pay 9% into their pensions?



If I told you that once again your ignorance was showing, would you consider for a moment the possibility that you should ascertain data before putting yourself out there like this.


are you now backtracking from the 9% claim?



Did you look up my request?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 04:52 PM

If not, I guess that our debate is done.....as if we had one in the first place......ROTLMBO eek mad cool smile frown blush crazy laugh shocked smirk confused grin wink cry cry sick sick sleep tired whistle
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Example: It's a typestyle, NOT a font.

FONT:
"an assortment or set of type or characters all of one style and sometimes one size"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/font

"a font is a particular size, weight and style of a typeface."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font

"A complete set of type of one size and face."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/font

"a complete assortment of type of one style and size."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/font


Must be why it shows as [font:Comic Sans MS] in the HTML code confused

Only partially correct, those links lack specific information crucial to explaining the difference or are meaningless in the absence of greater specific detail.

Here's a complete explanation in all it's accurate glory. Pictures included in order to make it dead simple, so that even you can understand.

http://mindgruve.com/blog/2013/05/typeface-vs-font-whats-the-difference-2/

So, I repeat... they are typestyles (or typefaces) NOT fonts. Each Font "Book" is of a specific point size, weight and italicis. Some include roman, serif, etc.. When you refer in general, to all sizes, weights, italicise, etc., as you clearly are by applying ALL of those characteristics.

If you were to have said (for instance) "Comic Sans MS Med Italic 11pt.", then you would have been correct. But you would also have had to have mentioned the non-italic specifier as a second font.

Therefore, you were wrong. PERIOD.

The only reason for your belief that I'm splitting hairs, is because you lack the knowledge to know the actual difference.

A ratchet is PART of a socket set. It is NOT a socket set.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
eek mad cool smile frown blush crazy laugh shocked smirk confused grin wink cry cry sick sick sleep tired whistle

Yep!

Bipolarzone.
Posted by: sands

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/04/14 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: sands
FONT:
"an assortment or set of type or characters all of one style and sometimes one size"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/font
"a font is a particular size, weight and style of a typeface."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font
"A complete set of type of one size and face."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/font
"a complete assortment of type of one style and size."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/font

Only partially correct....Therefore, you were wrong. PERIOD.


[font:Comic Sans MS]You will have to excuse Timbo for the rest of the night. He will be drafting and sending a tirade to each of the above entities.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


do you still stand by your position that 'teachers' pay 9% into their pensions?



If I told you that once again your ignorance was showing, would you consider for a moment the possibility that you should ascertain data before putting yourself out there like this.


are you now backtracking from the 9% claim?



Did you look up my request?


citations?

post the information as you are the one making the claim
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:14 AM

LOLOLOLOLOLOL, it's now your position to dispute it by "Citation"
Not just flapping or moving your mouth. whistle
In regard to school taxes, I even try to help you out but it's apparent that you do very little research.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
namely perks.....such as healthcare and savings for their future such as 401K and Pensions.....ALL which I give.....


are you aware of the management costs associated with a pension?

better ask your part time accountant whistle

considering you only have 4 'employees' then you would not be able to offer a pension...LOL

try again
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
LOLOLOLOLOLOL, it's now your position to dispute it by "Citation"


you made the claim that the 'teachers' pay 9% into their pensions

prove it

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Citations?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


will you be providing a $41,752 pension to your 'employees'?
try again
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


Originally Posted By: twocats
I did contribute 3% of my salary for the 1st 10 years


Originally Posted By: Formermac
Pensions


so tell us formermac if your employees only had to pay 3% into their pensions for the first ten years and you were paying them $40,000 per year
would their contribution amount to about $12,000 (40,000 x 0.03% = 1200 x 10(yrs) = $12,000)

the $12,000 that they contributed would not even equal one years worth of a $41,752 pension

where would the remaining 29 years worth pension come from?
your pocket?

ask your part time accountant...

Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
namely perks.....such as healthcare and savings for their future such as 401K and Pensions.....ALL which I give.....


are you aware of the management costs associated with a pension?

better ask your part time accountant whistle

considering you only have 4 'employees' then you would not be able to offer a pension...LOL

try again


it's advisable that you educate yourself, ever hear of a one man operation you "idiot" (malice intended) how many companies over the years were operated by one person? now tell us, how in heaven's name did they receive a retirement and 401K? shaking my da*m head
If one person can set up those perks, why not the same for 7 (for your further ignorance) The other aspect of you lack of education but I tried to impart sometimes to help you in the past......perks are utilized as write offs thus making the actual out of pocket cost for the owners a whole lot less once taxes are done....remember as well ole smart one....I pay taxes on a quarterly basis thus making some of the adjustments even before April 15th of each year. Still shaking my head
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
If one person can set up those perks, why not the same for 7


care to explain why larger local private companies do not offer pensions?

yawn...
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:04 AM

Ever hear of LeChase Inc.? Worked for them for over 30 years, their accounting firm have little time for a small business such as mine but they keyed me in on a great accounting firm in the Finger Lakes who deal with just that...small business....ever hear of PayChex? They have a wealth of policies that they extend to me every other Friday. laugh
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Ever hear of LeChase Inc.?

PayChex?


do they offer their employees a $41,000 pension when the employee only contributes 3% for the first ten years of employment?
Posted by: tubby

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:16 AM

If your not in a union you do not have a pension.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Ever hear of LeChase Inc.? Worked for them for over 30 years,


and just think if you were a 'teacher' you would be getting 75% of your salary for your pension

must be lechase was not that generous for your pension as you are still working... whistle

Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
I pay taxes on a quarterly basis thus making some of the adjustments even before April 15th of each year.


care to explain what the PBGC is and why it was create?

yawn...
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:33 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Ever hear of LeChase Inc.? Worked for them for over 30 years,


and just think if you were a 'teacher' you would be getting 75% of your salary for your pension

must be lechase was not that generous for your pension as you are still working... whistle



And just to think, if you had a brain, you would be comprehending 75% of what info is available to you if only you researched...don't take my word for it.......Tell us....is ignorance bliss? whistle
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I pay taxes on a quarterly basis thus making some of the adjustments even before April 15th of each year.


care to explain what the PBGC is and why it was create?

yawn...


Care to explain what my quarterly estimate taxes and a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common?........if you read....Kodak in Rochester NY has many of it's former retirees worrying about their pension thus the reason that PBGS came to be prominent in the news.......I must admit, I've never met anyone as dysfunctional as yourself who did not live in an assistant living environment. All due respect to those clients.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
And just to think, if you had a brain, you would be comprehending 75% of what info is available to you if only you researched...don't take my word for it


must be your claim that 'teachers' pay 9% into their pension lacks merit
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common


the 'teachers' pension system is out of money
guess where the money will come from?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Kodak in Rochester NY has many of it's former retirees worrying about their pension thus the reason that PBGS came to be prominent in the news


care to explain why pensions offered by employers saw a large decline after the pbgc was created?
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common
the 'teachers' pension system is out of money

Citations?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common


the 'teachers' pension system is out of money
guess where the money will come from?



You're out of gas, argument and common sense...guess where that places you? whistle Thus the reason(s) you're asking several repeated questions without the benefit of supplying facts and citations along with your rebuttals to support your arguments. shocked
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common
the 'teachers' pension system is out of money

Citations?


look at your school tax bill
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common
the 'teachers' pension system is out of money

Citations?


cite

Examples Word Origin
verb (used with object), cited, citing.
1.
to quote (a passage, book, author, etc.), especially as an authority:
He cited the Constitution in his defense.
2.
to mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example:
He cited many instances of abuse of power.
3.
to summon officially or authoritatively to appear in court.
4.
to call to mind; recall:
citing my gratitude to him.
5.
Military. to mention (a soldier, unit, etc.) in orders, as for gallantry.
6.
to commend, as for outstanding service, hard work, or devotion to duty.
7.
to summon or call; rouse to action.

The fact that citations proves them wrong is the reason that CITATION is lacking. It's amazing how ignorance assumes that everyone is in their circle of fools and gets mad when you research data to prove them wrong, adverse to repeating what Cletus the next door neighbor states as fact.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Kodak in Rochester NY has many of it's former retirees worrying about their pension thus the reason that PBGS came to be prominent in the news


interesting that the 'teachers' still get a much generous pension than the kodak retirees get

time to convert to a 401k for the 'teachers'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Citations?


cite

Examples Word Origin
verb (used with object), cited, citing.
1.
to quote (a passage, book, author, etc.), especially as an authority:
He cited the Constitution in his defense.
2.
to mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example:
He cited many instances of abuse of power.
3.
to summon officially or authoritatively to appear in court.
4.
to call to mind; recall:
citing my gratitude to him.
5.
Military. to mention (a soldier, unit, etc.) in orders, as for gallantry.
6.
to commend, as for outstanding service, hard work, or devotion to duty.
7.
to summon or call; rouse to action.

The fact that citations proves them wrong is the reason that CITATION is lacking. It's amazing how ignorance assumes that everyone is in their circle of fools and gets mad when you research data to prove them wrong, adverse to repeating what Cletus the next door neighbor states as fact.


where is the 9% that the 'teachers' pay into their pensions as you claim?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common
the 'teachers' pension system is out of money

Citations?


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Statewide, the average pension for school retirees was $41,752 in the 2012-13 school year. It was $39,193 in 2010.


if there are currently 150,000 retirees and each gets an average of $41,752 then

150,000 x $41,752 = $6,262,800,000 outflow each year

timbo - would you like to tell us how long before the 'teachers' pension fund is depleted?



odd that you did not reply to this post prior
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Citations?


cite

Examples Word Origin
verb (used with object), cited, citing.
1.
to quote (a passage, book, author, etc.), especially as an authority:
He cited the Constitution in his defense.
2.
to mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example:
He cited many instances of abuse of power.
3.
to summon officially or authoritatively to appear in court.
4.
to call to mind; recall:
citing my gratitude to him.
5.
Military. to mention (a soldier, unit, etc.) in orders, as for gallantry.
6.
to commend, as for outstanding service, hard work, or devotion to duty.
7.
to summon or call; rouse to action.

The fact that citations proves them wrong is the reason that CITATION is lacking. It's amazing how ignorance assumes that everyone is in their circle of fools and gets mad when you research data to prove them wrong, adverse to repeating what Cletus the next door neighbor states as fact.


where is the 9% that the 'teachers' pay into their pensions as you claim?



http://www.ctpf.org/current_news/MYTHBUSTERS.pdf
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 10:18 AM

Blue, there are some portions of my citation that can be easily disputed but you gave your ignorance away by not taking advantage of taking the time to research facts versus throwing postings out there just to make an argument. It's advisable to you to concertedly make an effort to supply citation along with your premise, only a fool (that includes both you and I) can debate fact. Now sit down, get some wits about yourself and look up the facts and figures that may very well prove us both partially correct or wrong......but you flapping your gums is totally unacceptable. See I'm willing to work with sane people. smile
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 10:22 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
a insurance company that backs your pension in the event your company should fail have in common
the 'teachers' pension system is out of money

Citations?

look at your school tax bill

Unrevealing, as that requires pure speculation. Therefore, meaningless.
Posted by: Timbo

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 10:25 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Kodak in Rochester NY has many of it's former retirees worrying about their pension thus the reason that PBGS came to be prominent in the news
interesting that the 'teachers' still get a much generous pension than the kodak retirees get

time to convert to a 401k for the 'teachers'

Allow me to repeat myself...

Originally Posted By: Timbo
Are YOU suggesting that ANY < Kodak > job has the SAME educational, scheduling, overtime, attendance, planning, performance, administrative, conduct and social responsibility requirements as that of TEACHERS ? ? ?

You may also want to consider that Kodak scr**** "rotationally inserted (in a clockwise motion) an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis" into MANY of it's retirees, out of more than 50% of their pension benefits. They simply refused to honor them.

You were saying?
Posted by: Formermac

Re: 401 k versus state pension plan - 10/05/14 10:33 AM