$895 Million Owed NY by Tribes

Posted by: bluezone

$895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/10/07 09:19 AM

Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/12/07 07:46 PM

VOTE NO on the deal!!!!
Posted by: LaughinWillow

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/12/07 10:51 PM

Don't you people ever think it's, well, IRONIC to complain about what you're "owed" by native peoples? I mean, really - isn't it the height of arrogance to demand that people who were driven to the edge of absolute extinction, stripped of their lands and culture, and cheated out of what they were promised in almost every single treaty your country signed with them pay you anything EVER??? Are you going to honor their original treaties? No? Then maybe you should quit your whining. God.
Posted by: Greymane

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/07 10:16 AM

How far does the pendulum swing? So the few remaining ancestors rake in billions in profits and go unchecked? Hell, if they want sovereign territory, give them a chunk of land and let them build their own country. Hell, give them the island of Manhattan back! I sure don't want it. And, for that matter, they can have California, too. Apparently, we are done with it since we are giving it to the Mexicans.

What our ancestors did was unexcusable. We have lost a great deal of the cultural wealth of this land. But, we are not paying back the people who were harmed. Most true native Americans don't want the money and certainly don't want the casinos. The people who want this deal are the fat cats who sleep in the same overpriced beds that your representatives sleep in down in DC.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/07 10:58 AM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Don't you people ever think it's, well, IRONIC to complain about what you're "owed" by native peoples? I mean, really - isn't it the height of arrogance to demand that people who were driven to the edge of absolute extinction, stripped of their lands and culture, and cheated out of what they were promised in almost every single treaty your country signed with them pay you anything EVER??? Are you going to honor their original treaties? No? Then maybe you should quit your whining. God.


Do you plan on using that sympathy tactic for another 200 years?

You post is a prime example of the whiner. Take your own advice and stop whining.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/07 11:00 AM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Don't you people ever think it's, well, IRONIC to complain about what you're "owed" by native peoples? I mean, really - isn't it the height of arrogance to demand that people who were driven to the edge of absolute extinction, stripped of their lands and culture, and cheated out of what they were promised in almost every single treaty your country signed with them pay you anything EVER??? Are you going to honor their original treaties? No? Then maybe you should quit your whining. God.



Are you saying that the tribes have never ever broke a treaty?

Why are the senecas now trying to charge NY for the thruway?


What treaty said that you are tax exempt off the rez?

.
Posted by: LaughinWillow

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/07 08:58 PM

Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/14/07 01:43 PM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?


What specific aspect of the treaty that was with your tribe was not honor?
Posted by: LaughinWillow

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/15/07 05:18 PM

Are you joking? The vast majority of treaties that the US signed with native tribes have NEVER been honored. I mean, if you really want, I can compile a list, but I feel like this is pretty common knowledge. I just don't get why you or anyone else thinks you're "owed" anything from native tribes. It's just hilarious. And the notion that because there are "fat cat" leaders profiting in the tribes, therefore they should pay taxes is ridiculous. You don't even require your own wealthy to pay the taxes they should - why not start with them instead of hassling indians? Seems a bit hypocritical to say anything about natives simply following in the footsteps of your own "great" country.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/15/07 05:41 PM

I will ask the question again.

What specific aspect of your treaty did the US not honor?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/16/07 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
I will ask the question again.

What specific aspect of your treaty did the US not honor?



??????????????????????
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/18/07 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Are you joking?


It appears that you are the joke.
You seem to post drizzle without backing it up.
You are unable to answer a simple question.
I read thru a few of your other posts and am confused as you make comments about "your" governement (US) but then you turn around and represent the US government as your enemy.

Do you have split personalities?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 07/18/07 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
I will ask the question again.

What specific aspect of your treaty did the US not honor?



??????????????????????


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 08/01/07 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Are you joking?


It appears that you are the joke.
You seem to post drizzle without backing it up.
You are unable to answer a simple question.
I read thru a few of your other posts and am confused as you make comments about "your" governement (US) but then you turn around and represent the US government as your enemy.

Do you have split personalities?




\:D \:D \:D







.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/22/07 01:39 PM

When will the taxpayers get reimbursed for title insurance due to the fake land claims?
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/22/07 02:23 PM

"Apparently, we are done with it since we are giving it to the Mexicans."

One could also phrase that. "....giving it BACK to the Mexicans.".

U.S. Grant:

"For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war [with Mexico] which resulted as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation."
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/25/07 02:19 PM

Who would win if it came down to the Mex or the tribe going to battle?
Posted by: stargatersg1

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/25/07 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Are you joking? The vast majority of treaties that the US signed with native tribes have NEVER been honored. I mean, if you really want, I can compile a list, but I feel like this is pretty common knowledge. I just don't get why you or anyone else thinks you're "owed" anything from native tribes. It's just hilarious. And the notion that because there are "fat cat" leaders profiting in the tribes, therefore they should pay taxes is ridiculous. You don't even require your own wealthy to pay the taxes they should - why not start with them instead of hassling indians? Seems a bit hypocritical to say anything about natives simply following in the footsteps of your own "great" country.



So what is the solution? Do we go back in history and UNDO all of the wars fought and won/lost and give what was taken back to the "original" owner. Man that would be a lot of work.I believe in equality for all. They can live whereever they want but let them pay taxes and be treated like everyone else. This treaty crap is a joke. They LOST the war get over it and go forward. No special treatment.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/26/07 09:14 AM

My family was captured and enslaved centuries ago by Rome, the Huns and the Vikings.






I want reparations.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/28/07 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By: SkySoldier
My family was captured and enslaved centuries ago by Rome, the Huns and the Vikings.






I want reparations.


Would that mean that everyone owes something to everyone else?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 09/28/07 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?



Would you agree that the indians have been given far more than any treaty would have entitled them to?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/02/07 06:00 PM

Take that as a "yes".
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/04/07 11:37 AM

Would that be because most treaties were negotiated back before technology exsisted, or land values were a lot less than today, or would that be because since the Pultneys sold the property illegally anyway...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/05/07 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________


Spitzer?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/09/07 03:48 PM

Day one?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/11/07 05:54 PM

Drug Bust Biggest in Wayne County (sound)

15 people have been arrested in what's being called the biggest drug bust in Wayne County history. Suspects from Wayne, Ontario and Monroe Counties are among those rounded up today in the culmination of an investigation that began in February. Newark Police Chief Richard Bogan tells R News the cops took down a major organization.

Ontario County Sheriff Phil Povero says the arrests will definitely make Ontario County residents safer.

Authorities say the drug ring was smuggling pot through the --Mohawk Indian reservation-- in northern New York, along the Canadian border. 400 thousand dollars and 130 pounds of pot were seized.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/23/07 10:53 AM

Spitzer - lost at the wheel?
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/23/07 11:43 AM

Question: Would you like to see Indian reservations eliminated?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/27/07 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Question: Would you like to see Indian reservations eliminated?



And then what?
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/27/07 07:52 PM

b
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/29/07 09:16 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Question: Would you like to see Indian reservations eliminated?



And then what?


That was not a yes or no.
You have to type on your keyboard, that black thing in front of you with the alphabet on it.... Y E S or N O.
k?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 10/30/07 08:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Question: Would you like to see Indian reservations eliminated?



And then what?


That was not a yes or no.
You have to type on your keyboard, that black thing in front of you with the alphabet on it.... Y E S or N O.
k?


the sales taxes should be collected.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/01/07 08:18 AM

Not a wise decision for Spitzer.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/01/07 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Question: Would you like to see Indian reservations eliminated?



And then what?


That was a yes or no.
You have to type on your keyboard, that black thing in front of you with the alphabet on it.... Y E S or N O.
k?


the sales taxes should be collected.


.


That was not the question.... It was an evasive answer you gave.
Just like a demoncrat to answer with an evasive answer...
Let me re-state the question in another color to see if that helps...

Question: Would you like to see Indian reservations eliminated?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/02/07 03:38 AM

See first post of the thread.

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/02/07 03:39 AM

Should the tribes disobey the law?
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/02/07 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
See first post of the thread.

.


Chicken.
Evasive... Clintonite...
Posted by: Smitty

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/04/07 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Don't you people ever think it's, well, IRONIC to complain about what you're "owed" by native peoples? I mean, really - isn't it the height of arrogance to demand that people who were driven to the edge of absolute extinction, stripped of their lands and culture, and cheated out of what they were promised in almost every single treaty your country signed with them pay you anything EVER??? Are you going to honor their original treaties? No? Then maybe you should quit your whining. God.


Word.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/06/07 08:12 AM

And how much has been given?
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/06/07 09:08 AM

Answer the question!
Should we force the elimination of American Indian Reservations because they did not pay their fair share of taxes to New York State Almighty?

Chicken.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/07 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Answer the question!
Should we force the elimination of American Indian Reservations because they did not pay their fair share of taxes to New York State Almighty?

Chicken.


And which post did I suggest this?

If a non-tribal individual did not pay their taxes then what would happen to them?


.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/07 09:38 AM

No.
I asked you the question, you evaded it.
You cannot answer a question with a question.

Answer the previous question.

Should the State of New York force the elimination of American Indian Reservations in this state?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/07 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
...Should the State of New York force the elimination of "American" Indian Reservations in this state?




And where are the "american" reservations in NY?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/07 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
No.
I asked you the question, you evaded it.
You cannot answer a question with a question.

Answer the previous question.

Should the State of New York force the elimination of American Indian Reservations in this state?



If a non-tribal individual did not pay their taxes then what would happen to them?

------------------------------------



Did you answer my question?


.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/08/07 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
No.
I asked you the question, you evaded it.
You cannot answer a question with a question.

Answer the previous question.

Should the State of New York force the elimination of American Indian Reservations in this state?



If a non-tribal individual did not pay their taxes then what would happen to them?

------------------------------------



Did you answer my question?


.



Wrong cabbage breathe.

Read this again. Your superego has put you in the garbage heap with the rest of your racism.

You are just afraid to say what is in your heart arent you? Scardy cat... little baby.

BUT I will answer your question to satisfy your huge gargantuan ego.
If someone that is a United States citizen and not a citizen of another soverign country or state, then they do not have to pay United States or any other state that is a state within the physical borders or political jurisdiction of the United States of America, then they do not have to pay taxes within the jurisdiction of said particular sovereign nation that they are physically located in at that particular time.

This IS particulary true of European nations. In essecence, I do not have to pay New York taxes when I purchase something while vacationing in England or say Lichtenstein ....

Now then. Answer the question as stated previously:


Should the State of New York force the elimination of American Indian Reservations in this state?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/08/07 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage



If a non-tribal individual did not pay their taxes then what would happen to them?

------------------------------------



Did you answer my question?


.


Originally Posted By: Sausage



Wrong cabbage breathe.

Read this again. Your superego has put you in the garbage heap with the rest of your racism.

You are just afraid to say what is in your heart arent you? Scardy cat... little baby.

BUT I will answer your question to satisfy your huge gargantuan ego.
If someone that is a United States citizen and not a citizen of another soverign country or state, then they do not have to pay United States or any other state that is a state within the physical borders or political jurisdiction of the United States of America, then they do not have to pay taxes within the jurisdiction of said particular sovereign nation that they are physically located in at that particular time.

This IS particulary true of European nations. In essecence, I do not have to pay New York taxes when I purchase something while vacationing in England or say Lichtenstein ....

Now then. Answer the question as stated previously:


Should the State of New York force the elimination of American Indian Reservations in this state?


Where is the post that I said I wanted the rez removed?

Who even said anything about england?

If a NY state citizen did not pay his taxes then what should happen?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/14/07 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________





Spitzer campaign statement

.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/14/07 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage



If a non-tribal individual did not pay their taxes then what would happen to them?

------------------------------------



Did you answer my question?


.


Originally Posted By: Sausage



Wrong cabbage breathe.

Read this again. Your superego has put you in the garbage heap with the rest of your racism.

You are just afraid to say what is in your heart arent you? Scardy cat... little baby.

BUT I will answer your question to satisfy your huge gargantuan ego.
If someone that is a United States citizen and not a citizen of another soverign country or state, then they do not have to pay United States or any other state that is a state within the physical borders or political jurisdiction of the United States of America, then they do not have to pay taxes within the jurisdiction of said particular sovereign nation that they are physically located in at that particular time.

This IS particulary true of European nations. In essecence, I do not have to pay New York taxes when I purchase something while vacationing in England or say Lichtenstein ....

Now then. Answer the question as stated previously:


Should the State of New York force the elimination of American Indian Reservations in this state?


Where is the post that I said I wanted the rez removed?

Who even said anything about england?

If a NY state citizen did not pay his taxes then what should happen?


Try to keep up... you cant be this dense.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/19/07 06:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage

This IS particulary true of European nations. In essecence, I do not have to pay New York taxes when I purchase something while vacationing in England or say Lichtenstein ....


So if you purchase gasoline in Europe then you will not have to pay the high gas tax?
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/19/07 01:20 PM

You have got to be kidding. I really dont believe you just typed that out.... Talk about bait.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/20/07 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________






.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/26/07 03:07 PM

every day more money is lost.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/26/07 05:48 PM

BZ

I Just caught this thread.

I see laughing willow refused to answer your question about "What specific aspect of the treaty that was with your tribe was not honor?" Then lw generalized claiming the vast majority of treaties with the US weren't honored. Strange, I didn't see any answer pertaining to New York tribes. In fact, there was no answer.

As to what happened to the tribes of 200 years ago would have happened anyway. They can be glad England won out over France or they'd be speaking German today if they even existed.

Glad to see you evaded the sausage grinder from the pityme tribe looking to play the race card, which he did anyway after making up an answer. Race cards are usually played by people who have no valid complaints.

I also see sausage evaded your question "And where are the "american" reservations in NY?"

The sausage take on the tax issue with an example shows a viewpoint of reservations being equivalent to a foreign country. To that, the US Supreme Court has ruled is bunk and the taxes can legally be collected from non-Indians and tribal members if not of the tribe they are doing business with.

I see Eliott backed down on his push to give to illegal immigrants drivers licenses. Con jobs like this are why he was voted by his peers as the third worst attorney general in the country. Must be not enough people are complaining about his refusal to enforce the tax laws.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 11/28/07 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
BZ

I Just caught this thread.

I see laughing willow refused to answer your question about "What specific aspect of the treaty that was with your tribe was not honor?" Then lw generalized claiming the vast majority of treaties with the US weren't honored. Strange, I didn't see any answer pertaining to New York tribes. In fact, there was no answer.



I agree. She wants to make a claim but does not back it up.

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


As to what happened to the tribes of 200 years ago would have happened anyway. They can be glad England won out over France or they'd be speaking German today if they even existed.



They fail to realize how good they have it.


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


Glad to see you evaded the sausage grinder from the pityme tribe looking to play the race card, which he did anyway after making up an answer. Race cards are usually played by people who have no valid complaints.




So true.


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


I also see sausage evaded your question "And where are the "american" reservations in NY?"

The sausage take on the tax issue with an example shows a viewpoint of reservations being equivalent to a foreign country. To that, the US Supreme Court has ruled is bunk and the taxes can legally be collected from non-Indians and tribal members if not of the tribe they are doing business with.



Time for NY to collect overdue taxes!


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


I see Eliott backed down on his push to give to illegal immigrants drivers licenses. Con jobs like this are why he was voted by his peers as the third worst attorney general in the country. Must be not enough people are complaining about his refusal to enforce the tax laws.


He spoke out against Pataki for not collecting the taxes from the tribes but now he looks the other way. Lets hope he is putting a solid plan together or he will not last long in that position.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/04/07 02:24 PM

Mr. Spitzer do you need more money to balance the budget?

Start collecting the taxes from the tribes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/07 06:23 PM

Foxwoods objections don’t deter dealers

Dec 09, 2007 @ 04:37 AM

By ERICA JACOBSON
Norwich Bulletin

Dealers at Foxwoods Resort Casino say they are going ahead with union preparations after the Nov. 24 vote regardless of objections management has filed with the National Labor Relations Board.

"When I got started, I said to myself, 'I will see this to the end. I will not waiver from this.' ...We deserve it and we need it," 15-year dealer Bill Shea of Westerly said.

Foxwoods, the United Auto Workers and the board have until the end of Monday to submit evidence regarding the dozen objections the casino filed a week ago with the board's Hartford offices.

The complaints were levied at both the union and the UAW and include concerns about election ballots being solely in English instead of the several languages spoken by employees. Foxwoods also alleged the union intimidated workers during the lead up to as well as on the day of the election itself.

Michael Thomas, Mashantucket Pequot tribal chairman, has said Foxwoods will contest the vote through to federal courts if needed, based on the argument the federal board had no jurisdiction over the sovereign nation's employment issues.

What's in contract

Mary Johnson, another longtime dealer at the casino, said dealers such as herself who were active in the pre-election union drive now are talking to as many fellow dealers as possible regardless of how they voted or how long they've worked for the casino.

"I want everybody's input," she said. "It's important for people to start thinking about what they want to see in a contract."

Since the vote totals were announced early Nov. 25, Shea has said he'd like to see the healing process begin at the casino. He said continued protests from Foxwoods are a delay, not a deal breaker, to restoring Foxwoods to the company he remembers so fondly.

"That's our goal as employees, to return Foxwoods back to the old glory days," Shea said. "If we didn't care, we wouldn't be here."

Reach Erica Jacobson at 425-4241 or ejacobson@norwichbulletin.com
Posted by: bluezone

Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 12/22/07 11:18 AM

Stop service for unpaid taxes.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/23/07 11:44 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Mr. Spitzer do you need more money to balance the budget?

Start collecting the taxes from the tribes.




And ALL churches!










The pope's rich enough.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 12/24/07 11:22 AM

Why do you hate American Indians?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/24/07 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: SkySoldier
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Mr. Spitzer do you need more money to balance the budget?

Start collecting the taxes from the tribes.




And ALL churches!



The pope's rich enough.


Have yet to see an illegal casino run by the church making hundreds of millions of dollars per year?

Have yet to see the church selling illegal cigs and making hundreds of millions of dollars per year?

Have yet to see the church selling illegal gas and making millions of dollars per year?


(merry christmas)



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 12/24/07 01:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Why do you hate American Indians?


And what post have I stated that?


Posted by: dmills30ny

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/26/07 08:25 AM

I WAS JUST WONDERING, MANY MOONS AGO THE INDIANS KILLED MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER, TOOK HIS LAND AND HIS CATTLE, CANT I SUE THEM NOW FOR PAIN AN SUFFERING AN RIGHTS TO MY LAND,,KINDA LIKE WHAT THERE DOIN, OH WAIT IF I DID THAT I WOULD SOMEHOW BE PREJUDICE, RACIST OR SOMETHIN STUPID LIKE THAT.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/28/07 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By: dmills30ny
I WAS JUST WONDERING, MANY MOONS AGO THE INDIANS KILLED MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER, TOOK HIS LAND AND HIS CATTLE, CANT I SUE THEM NOW FOR PAIN AN SUFFERING AN RIGHTS TO MY LAND,,KINDA LIKE WHAT THERE DOIN, OH WAIT IF I DID THAT I WOULD SOMEHOW BE PREJUDICE, RACIST OR SOMETHIN STUPID LIKE THAT.


There is the double standard.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/02/08 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Why do you hate American Indians?


And what post have I stated that?




?
Posted by: boxer

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/02/08 09:40 PM

You may proceed BlueZone. The spammers have been outed for the moment. If it aint news. If they just want to post off websites they back, then it does not belong here or in the debate thread.
They do not post Headline news they post SPAM PROPAGANDA in both places. Egads this is getting old.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/04/08 09:15 AM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/05/08 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Drug Bust Biggest in Wayne County (sound)

15 people have been arrested in what's being called the biggest drug bust in Wayne County history. Suspects from Wayne, Ontario and Monroe Counties are among those rounded up today in the culmination of an investigation that began in February. Newark Police Chief Richard Bogan tells R News the cops took down a major organization.

Ontario County Sheriff Phil Povero says the arrests will definitely make Ontario County residents safer.

Authorities say the drug ring was smuggling pot through the --Mohawk Indian reservation-- in northern New York, along the Canadian border. 400 thousand dollars and 130 pounds of pot were seized.




St. Regis Mohawk Tribe responds to BIA rejection


The St. Regis Mohawk Tribe of New York today said Indian Country is getting "screwed" by the Bush administration on off-reservation gaming.

Tribal chiefs slammed the Bureau of Indian Affairs for rejecting their land-into-trust application for an off-reservation casino. The $600 million project is supported by the local community and Gov. Eliot Spitzer (D).

But Jim Cason, the assistant deputy secretary at the Interior Department, said the project would not be in the best interests of the tribe. in a letter today, he said the proposed benefits would not help tribal members who live on the reservation, more than 300 miles from the casino site.

"While the financial benefits of the proposed gaming facility might create revenues for the tribe and may mitigate some potential negative impacts, the tribe's application fails to carefully address and comprehensively analyze the potential negative impacts on reservation life and does not clearly demonstrate why these negative impacts should be out weighed by the financial benefits of tribal ownership of a remote gaming facility," Cason wrote in the four-page letter.

In response, tribal leaders called the decision paternalistic. “The language contained within the decision strikes me as a brazen paternalistic assault against not only the Mohawks but all of Indian Country. The clear message is that Indians belong on reservations and should be content to receive handouts and commodity cheese from the federal government," said Chief Lorraine White.




Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/05/08 07:47 AM

How can the tribe have $600 million dollars for a casino but says that it must rely on cheese hand-outs?

Are their casinos, tax free gas, tax free cigs... not making any profits?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/05/08 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________





Would it make more sense for spitzer to collect the unpaid taxes of over $895 million per year on cigarettes or receive $20 million from a casino?
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/07/08 07:36 AM

No it would not make sense you idiot.

Booo hooo hooo.... someone is getting rich and the communist demoncrats cant stand it.
All it takes is one money hungry taxman...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/07/08 08:45 AM

Quote:


In response, tribal leaders called the decision paternalistic.




Originally Posted By: sausage

Booo hooo hooo.... someone is getting rich and the casino tribes cant stand it.
All it takes is one money hungry chief...



Quote:

The clear message is that Indians belong on reservations and should be content to receive handouts and commodity cheese from the federal government," said Chief Lorraine White.




Originally Posted By: sausage

Booo hooo hooo.... someone is getting rich and the casino tribes cant stand it.
All it takes is one money hungry chief...




Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/07/08 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Why do you hate American Indians?





Why do you hate everyone else?



.
Posted by: Crappie Jack

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/07/08 10:29 AM

Sorry I clicked on here, I thought yall were talking bout street gangs... Bro..!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/09/08 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


... The clear message is that Indians belong on reservations and should be content to receive handouts and commodity cheese from the federal government," said Chief Lorraine White.






The tribes are the ones that want to "isolate" themselves.


.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/09/08 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Why do you hate American Indians?





Why do you hate everyone else?



.


I dont! I believe that they should not have to pay any taxes what-so-ever.
so there.
Nyah!
Communist Red Coat...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/11/08 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
I believe that they should not have to pay any taxes what-so-ever.



Are they not US citizens?

.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/11/08 09:41 AM

They are citizens of their own nation.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/12/08 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


We should conclude that they supply a passport every time they leave the rez?
Posted by: Gio

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/12/08 07:26 PM

when will this madness end?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/14/08 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________





Would it make more sense for spitzer to collect the unpaid taxes of over $895 million per year on cigarettes or receive $20 million from a casino?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/14/08 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/14/08 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:
1. Hate the American Indian, or Native American, rather...
2. Are so stuck with the premise of taxing everyone and thing that moves, you cannot stand it if someone gets away with not paying taxes...
or:
3. Actually ARE a Commie, ex-hippie drug infested loonie bird.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/14/08 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:
1. Hate the American Indian, or Native American, rather...
2. Are so stuck with the premise of taxing everyone and thing that moves, you cannot stand it if someone gets away with not paying taxes...
or:
3. Actually ARE a Commie, ex-hippie drug infested loonie bird.





Do you use a passport when you leave the rez?


.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:
1. Hate the American Indian, or Native American, rather...
2. Are so stuck with the premise of taxing everyone and thing that moves, you cannot stand it if someone gets away with not paying taxes...
or:
3. Actually ARE a Commie, ex-hippie drug infested loonie bird.





Do you use a passport when you leave the rez?


.


There used to be an era when sovereign nations did not require papers or a passport to move back and forth across borders. Now suppose the American Indian, every reservation in every state had banded together, to block access to their lands. Add that they would require either a passport or a toll.
Take into account the rumour that the Senecas were planning a toll booth at the start and end of their property on Interstate 90 (the Thruway to you), south of Buffalo.
Would you rather have that?
Would you rather have dead NYS troopers and county cops?
Would you like to see tires burning on the I?

Now ask your question again.... to yourself.
...bloody Nazi...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:
1. Hate the American Indian, or Native American, rather...
2. Are so stuck with the premise of taxing everyone and thing that moves, you cannot stand it if someone gets away with not paying taxes...
or:
3. Actually ARE a Commie, ex-hippie drug infested loonie bird.





Do you use a passport when you leave the rez?


.


I will conclude that you do not use a passport when you leave the rez.
Reason would follow that the tribes are not sovereign like other real countries that require a passport.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:
1. Hate the American Indian, or Native American, rather...


What is an "American" indian?

Please point out the post that says that I hate the indian?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:
2. Are so stuck with the premise of taxing everyone and thing that moves, you cannot stand it if someone gets away with not paying taxes...


Do they not receive money from local, state and federal governments but refuse to pay taxes?




----------------------------------------------------------------

Tribes win grant for addiction program
By DIANE COCHRAN
Of The Gazette Staff

A $5.6 million federal grant awarded to the Montana-Wyoming Tribal Leaders Council will help American Indian communities battle addictions to methamphetamine and other substances.

The money, to be dispensed over three years, will fund the Rocky Mountain Tribal Access to Recovery, a new program designed to broaden treatment and support systems available to tribal members with addictions.



About 15 percent of American Indians in Montana and Wyoming, or about 11,000 people, need some form of substance abuse treatment, Cline said, but only 4,000 of them are getting it.

The Montana-Wyoming Tribal Leaders Council was among 24 entities to receive a total of $98 million in the second round of funding.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.


Ward of the federal government.


Why dont you admit you either:

3. Actually ARE a Commie, ex-hippie drug infested loonie bird.


Sounds like what a 2-year old would say.


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage

There used to be an era when sovereign nations did not require papers or a passport to move back and forth across borders.



The world evolves unlike some.

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Now suppose the American Indian, every reservation in every state had banded together, to block access to their lands. Add that they would require either a passport or a toll.



Do you see people flocking to the rez?

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Take into account the rumour that the Senecas were planning a toll booth at the start and end of their property on Interstate 90 (the Thruway to you), south of Buffalo.
Would you rather have that?



Let them try as their sales will suffer.

Originally Posted By: Sausage

Would you rather have dead NYS troopers and county cops?



Is this a threat?

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Would you like to see tires burning on the I?



Could you defend yourself against China, Japan, Iran...?

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Now ask your question again.... to yourself.
...bloody Nazi...



And what country defended you against the nazi?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 08:56 AM

by RT



...My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR. Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.

... trust lands don't apply to New York State.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 12:08 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Sausage

There used to be an era when sovereign nations did not require papers or a passport to move back and forth across borders.



The world evolves unlike some.

>such as yourself... as a tax-um-big communist?<

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Now suppose the American Indian, every reservation in every state had banded together, to block access to their lands. Add that they would require either a passport or a toll.



Do you see people flocking to the rez?

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Take into account the rumour that the Senecas were planning a toll booth at the start and end of their property on Interstate 90 (the Thruway to you), south of Buffalo.
Would you rather have that?



Let them try as their sales will suffer.

>I doubt it.

Originally Posted By: Sausage

Would you rather have dead NYS troopers and county cops?



Is this a threat?


>Nope.. but Im sure it would come to that..
Originally Posted By: Sausage


Would you like to see tires burning on the I?



Could you defend yourself against China, Japan, Iran...?

You are pretty much out there, arent ya...

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Now ask your question again.... to yourself.
...bloody Nazi...



And what country defended you against the nazi?

>That question has nothing to do with the discussion... ya ding dong.<
.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage

There used to be an era when sovereign nations did not require papers or a passport to move back and forth across borders.



The world evolves unlike some.


Originally Posted By: Sausage


>such as yourself... as a tax-um-big communist?<



Can you name a developed country that does not impose taxes to provide for it citizens?

And where do you think the $929 million per indian per year comes from?

BooooHooooo
the tribes want free hand-outs but whine when they have to pay taxes.
BoooooooooHoooooooooo


Does it fall from the clouds?
And I bet if the money stopped then the indians would compalin about that as well.

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Now suppose the American Indian, every reservation in every state had banded together, to block access to their lands. Add that they would require either a passport or a toll.



Do you see people flocking to the rez?



Originally Posted By: Sausage


Take into account the rumour that the Senecas were planning a toll booth at the start and end of their property on Interstate 90 (the Thruway to you), south of Buffalo.
Would you rather have that?



Let them try as their sales will suffer.
Originally Posted By: Sausage

>I doubt it.


Who would pay to go on the rez?


Originally Posted By: Sausage

Would you rather have dead NYS troopers and county cops?



Is this a threat?


Originally Posted By: Sausage

>Nope.. but Im sure it would come to that..


Originally Posted By: Sausage


Would you like to see tires burning on the I?



Could you defend yourself against China, Japan, Iran...?

Originally Posted By: Sausage

You are pretty much out there, arent ya...


Sorry that you cannot keep up with the 21 century.

Originally Posted By: Sausage


Now ask your question again.... to yourself.
...bloody Nazi...



And what country defended you against the nazi?



Originally Posted By: Sausage

>That question has nothing to do with the discussion... ya ding dong.<



Are you not the one that brought up nazi?

Feel free not to asnwer the question because we all know the answer is the US has defended you for all these years but yet you fail to acknowledge it. Keep looking for another free hand-out.

.
Posted by: FL1 Mod 2

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 01:43 PM

Debate this issue all you want, but if your dont control yourselves with the personal bickering the thread will be shut down.
Posted by: Sausage

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 01/15/08 03:31 PM

Hey it doesnt matter to me...go for it.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/15/08 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Mr. Spitzer do you need more money to balance the budget?

Start collecting the taxes from the tribes.



Or open a "New York State" Casino.




Or better yet, both! ;\)
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/15/08 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Mr. Spitzer do you need more money to balance the budget?

Start collecting the taxes from the tribes.



Or open a "New York State" Casino.




Or better yet, both! ;\)
Posted by: Sausage

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/18/08 07:15 AM

Hey Spitzer! Get rid of the waste programs in your own party and get rid of Cuomo! Maybe then you can balance the budget!
fools....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/18/08 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Hey Spitzer! Get rid of the waste programs in your own party and get rid of Cuomo! Maybe then you can balance the budget!
fools....


Or just collect all the overdue taxes from the tribes.

a few billion dollars over the years.



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/08 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Hey Spitzer! Get rid of the indian programs in your own state and Maybe then you can balance the budget!
fools....




Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/21/08 05:52 PM

Is there any links you know of radily available to research what has to be hundreds of US Government / Native American treaties?



Gotta be hundreds of them.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/08 08:19 AM

Ask Okla
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/08 08:28 AM

OK. ;-) Will do.


Oklahoma?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/27/08 06:23 PM

poster name - Okla
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/27/08 06:46 PM

I know. I was asking him if he was out there. You know, like this, ...


Oklahoma? ;-)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/31/08 07:59 AM

;\)
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 01/31/08 04:45 PM

Gotcha.


Okla?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/31/08 05:50 PM

Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/31/08 05:51 PM

Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/31/08 08:06 PM

That's alot of taxes.



Forclosure time.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/05/08 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: SkySoldier
That's alot of taxes.



Forclosure time.


overdue.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/08/08 02:13 PM

Will spitzer open up a state casino?
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/08/08 02:48 PM

Doubtful.



Whatever happend to the lotto taking care of the schools budgets?

Why do I still pay 2 thousand $'s a year to a school in a county and town I do not even live in?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/10/08 11:19 AM

$1 BILLION sale taxes dollars lost each year.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/14/08 06:33 AM

Is Spitzer not able to print the tax stamps?



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/16/08 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes



...Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."





All business owners and taxpayers should refuse to pay their taxes until Spitzer and Cuomo collect these overdue taxes.



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/18/08 12:54 PM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/26/08 04:43 AM

Wonder what the state would do if another owed a Billion dollars?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/29/08 07:35 AM

Wonder what Hillary thinks about collecting the tribal taxes?
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/29/08 10:10 AM

Prolly the same thing Obama thinks.


"I aint saying squat about how I am paying for all these promises ........ until I get IN there."


And you can bet your blue zone our taxes will go up but they will NOT tax the Indian gas, cigs or casinos.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/04/08 08:20 AM

SANTA FE, N.M.—Gov. Bill Richardson on Wednesday ordered state police to block access to a high-stakes bingo parlor built in southern New Mexico by Oklahoma's Fort Sill Apache Tribe.

Richardson said he was forced to take action after receiving no assurances from the federal government that it would either approve or reject the tribe's plans for a gaming operation at the 30-acre site at Akela.

"We have emphatically stated our opposition to what clearly would be an illegal gaming operation in the state of New Mexico," Richardson said in a statement. "Because the federal government is abdicating its responsibility, I have no choice but to take immediate and forceful action to protect the citizens of New Mexico and the integrity of our gaming laws."





--------------------------

Are you listening Mr. Spitzer?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/10/08 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

--------------------------

Are you listening Mr. Spitzer?


.


?
Posted by: Ranger

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/11/08 04:54 AM

ah he's a bit busy right now, but I'm sure he's listening, but as usual not to the people who elected him. He's listening to his attornies who are trying to keep him out of the same jail he's sent so many other to, for the same thing. Since he holds such a lofty position, he gets a walk, a large bonus and a pat on the back for being so honest and coming forward and admitting he made a boo-boo.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/12/08 05:23 PM

Will Paterson enforce the tax collection laws?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/15/08 04:32 PM

;\)
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/15/08 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Ranger
ah he's a bit busy right now, but I'm sure he's listening, but as usual not to the people who elected him. He's listening to his attornies who are trying to keep him out of the same jail he's sent so many other to, for the same thing. Since he holds such a lofty position, he gets a walk, a large bonus and a pat on the back for being so honest and coming forward and admitting he made a boo-boo.




\:D ;\)
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/16/08 12:54 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=bluezone]Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes



...Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."






Or Spitzers (cough cough) "replacement" should go after it.

All business owners and taxpayers should refuse to pay their taxes until Spitzer and Cuomo collect these overdue taxes.



. /quote]
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/08 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

--------------------------

Are you listening Mr. Spitzer?


.


?


Are you listening Mr. Paterson?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/27/08 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/06/08 10:02 AM

OIN unable to pay their taxes.


\:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/15/08 06:27 PM

Uncollected Tax Dollars

January 15, 2008
We thought you would be interested in the following letter that has been sent to the members of the Legislature by Mr. Arthur H. Katz, Executive Director of the NYS Wholesale Marketers and Distributors.

January 10, 2008

Dear Legislative Member:

SHAME

Why do we continue to permit annual sales of 400 million packs of untaxed cigarettes to Indian sellers when it is known that illicit reselling is funding terrorism?

In America, our greatest triumph is adherence to the rule of law. Where laws end, terrorism begins. In 1994, the United States Supreme Court ruled (in Attea v. New York State) that New York was within its right to tax all cigarette sales to non-tribal members. Yet in the twelve years since that ruling the Pataki administration did not attempt to apply the law to a single Native American sale. Therefore, lacking accountability, these untaxed sales have reached an astounding 40 million cartons annually with lost revenue to New York State of $20 million per week or one billion dollars per year.



*It should be noted, since our first letter dated August 6, 2007, New York State has lost an additional $440 million in revenue, why?



Shame:Major illegal profits from these sales are funding terrorism while the New York State treasury is robbed!

The connection between Native American untaxed cigarette distribution and the funding of terrorism is well established and documented by New York and Federal agencies, public officials and numerous criminal court cases. Among some recent examples:

New York City 11/03/2007, Rep. Anthony Weiner and state senator Jeff Klein, in calling for a congressional investigation and putting additional teeth in existing federal laws , issued a press release that documented several recent government cases which uncovered the funding of Hamas, Hezbollah and other terrorist groups. They also quoted public officials who have stated that illegal cigarette profits have become one of the leading sources of domestic terrorist funding. ATF agent Patrick Awe, who testified before the US Senate, stated "... the link to terrorism has been established".



v Cattaraugus Indian Reservation 09/20/2006, Karim H. Nassar from Canada pleads guilty to smuggling $500,000 of cigarettes off the reservation for general market consumption and sending profits to Hezbollah guerillas.



v Dearborn, 05/29/05, nineteen men are federally indicted for a smuggling operation that evaded "tens of millions in state cigarette taxes" by purchasing truck loads of untaxed product from a Western New York State Indian Reservation and reselling in New York and Michigan. The profits were funneled to Hezbollah.



v The New York State Tax Enforcement Group arrested a couple in Brooklyn who were part of a group of 200 terrorists smuggling and reselling into New York City.



v Police commissioner, Ray Kelly in a speech before the United Nations, states that the smuggling of cigarettes is the leading means of funding forterrorist organizations.



v New York Post 10/16/07 State Senator Martin Golden who sits on the Homeland Security Committee, states that "ATF has opened hundreds of illicit cigarette trafficking cases; ... [having] links to extremist groups such as al Qaeda ... He adds that ATF senior intelligence analyst William Billingslea wrote in the Police Chief Magazine that, "Because of the immense profit, illicit cigarette trafficking now rivals drugs as the method of choice to fill the bank accounts of terrorist groups." Golden goes on to say, "The solution is simple. Both federal and state laws are already in place, and the courts have reaffirmed their constitutionality. What we need now is a governor with the guts to enforce them. The result of not enforcing the law has transcended the issue of Native American sovereignty into an issue of national security."

Shame: Why has leadership not acted to enforce the law and protect public safety?

v Newsday 11/06/2007, "Trial of smoke-shop millionaire set to begin". In a criminal case heard before the Eastern District Court, RodneyMorrison a Costa Rican, who is an "Indian" through marriage, has offered to put up $56 million cash for bail. This criminal case involves massive amounts of cigarettes that were sold tax free to and from an Indian reservation.It certainly should not surprise anyone that the purchase of tens of thousands of cartons of cigarettes from just one of these Indian stores is not for personal consumption. The Distributor who supplies the "store" should know that those cartons cannot be consumed legally without taxation. The manufacturers who supply the distributors receive a mandatory report each week that states how many cartons go towhom, and yet continue to allocate and sell this product. These outlets are the major source of counterfeit and untaxed cigarettes sold in high taxed localities (NY) to complicit stores and street merchants.

Shame: Manufacturers who are allocating and their distributors who are selling should have knowledge of the laws requirements.

On April 12, 2005 legislation was passed that required the collection of taxes on all Indian sales of cigarettes, motor fuel and other products to non-Indian New Yorkers starting 3/1/06 (without exception) and was signed into law the next day. It was with both courage and conviction that Sheldon Silver and Joseph Bruno led the legislature to overturn Pataki's ill-advised veto, demonstrating their understanding of the urgency for stopping this outflow. The methodology of tax stamping of all cigarettes and the issuance of "exemption coupons" to tribal members was conceived 12 years ago and favorably ruled upon by the US Supreme Court.





Shame: NYS State government still continues to invent ingeniousexcuses for non-enforcement.



During his final year in office, Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, in various correspondences, made it crystal clear that current law prohibited the shipping of untaxed cigarettes within New York. And further, that manufacturers, truckers, distributors and Indian traders who aided and abetted or criminally facilitated these shipments would be guilty of crimes against the State. Recently, Attorney General Cuomo, under an order from the Federal Eastern District Court, testified that the state's policy of forbearance (i.e. non-enforcement) was not a valid defense for the causing to be sold or the causing to be shipped of untaxed cigarettes for resale to non-tribal members. In another criminal case heard before the Eastern District Court; Judge Hurley ruled that there was knowledge of the illegal use and therefore criminal aiding and abetting.



Shame: As yet, there is no State enforcement and criminals and terrorists continue to grow rich.



The Math:

From 1996 - 2006 there was a recorded twenty percent reduction in the national

cigarettes sales (excluding New York State).

In 1996 New York State Taxes were paid on 127 Million Cartons Sold.

In 2006 New York True Consumption should have fallen to 102 Million Cartons

Actual 2006 New York State Legal cartons sold amounted to only 62 million!

That equals a loss of 40 million cartons sold in 2006!!





Shame:

A $Billion give away of our taxes!



It is patently absurd to argue that Native American sovereignty can only be preserved by allowing them unregulated access to FORTY MILLION cartons of untaxed cigarettes annually. This would amount to a staggering EIGHT BILLION cigarettes smoked per year by 2,500 adult Native American smokers in New York.



Shame: Let us not fall asleep at the switch again! Solution: Tax Stamp all cigarettes!

Summary of some Applicable Laws that may be violated are:

The Jenkins Act; The Contraband Cigarette Trafficking Act 18 U.S.C.Sec.2342; New York Public Health Law1399II; NYS Tax Law, Article 20, Sec. 471E; Criminal Facilitation, Article 115 NYS Penal Law; provisions under The National Security Act.

Why have we suffered 12 years of non compliance and the feeding of terrorists? Why have the cigarette manufactures continued to allocate millions of cartons of cigarettes to Indian sellers knowing exactly what is being shipped to each Indian store? Why has Albany not exercised its duty to protect its citizens by simply upholding the law? Why have these complicit venders been permitted to become the leading source of untaxed cigarettes sold in the 50 states? It certainly cannot be up to Native Americans, manufactures, or recalcitrant Public Officials to dictate the terms of our safety. Our Supreme Court has already spoken. Now our elected officials must act by recognizing that where law dies, terrorism lives.

Shame: The failure of Government and manufacturers to act in these past twelve years is a classic case of politics and greed vs. country!

Sincerely,

Arthur H. Katz

Executive Director
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/30/08 09:08 AM

Cigarette Smugglers Funnel Money to Terror Groups, Report Finds

Cigarette smuggling is generating millions of dollars every year that can be reaching terrorist groups, including Hezbollah, Hamas and Al Qaeda, according to law enforcement sources. In a single case, $100,000 was sent to Hezbollah.

A 15-page report congressional report includes intelligence from law enforcement as well as New York State’s Department of Taxation and Finance.

The report reads in part: Cigarette smuggling is generating millions of dollars every year that can be reaching terrorist groups, including Hezbollah, Hamas and Al Qaeda, according to law enforcement sources. In a single case, $100,000 was sent to Hezbollah.

One of the key issues, according to the report, is a potential flaw in New York State policy. According to King’s office, there is a policy in the state of “forebearance,” or refusing to collect on sales of Native American tax-free cigarettes to non-Native Americans.

Critics of the policy say it has effectively created a safe haven for smugglers. In some cases, the report says, a well-organized operation can buy cigarettes tax-free on New York’s Indian reservations and sell them at a great profit in the New Yock City area, generating up to $300,000 per week with a loss of up to $576 million in tax revenues to New York State.

According to the report, citing federal and New York state law enforcement sources, nearly 60 percent of all convenience retail outlets in New York City are now Arab-owned, primarily families of Lebanese, Yemeni, Jordanian and Palestinian descent. While the vast majority of retailers are operating above board, some are not.

The report says that these retailers can funnel their profits from the sale of cigarettes to terrorist groups in the Mideast. It claims this “tobacco and terror” relationship has been found in a handful of recent cases.

“…the infamous ‘Lackawanna Seven’ reportedly received funding from an individual named Aref Ahmed for their travel from Buffalo to Afghanistan to attend an al Qaeda training camp,” the report says, referring to a group of American-born men of Yemeni descent who pleaded guilty to terror training.

Hearings dealing specifically with the report are scheduled this Thursday in Washington before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008
© 2008 FOX News Network, LLC. All rights reserved.
By Catherine Herridge
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/04/08 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.







Raise the thruway tax but look the other way for cig taxes?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/14/08 05:29 PM

Place a tax on casino chips.


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/20/08 07:40 AM

No Trust Land in NY.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/21/08 05:14 AM

Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes



Now THAT is REAL torture.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/06/08 07:05 AM

Raise the taxes on cigarettes but fail to collect the Billion dollars from the tribes?
I guess having tax stamps would cost too much to print--
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/09/08 06:00 AM

On April 12, 2005 legislation was passed that required the collection of taxes on all Indian sales of cigarettes, motor fuel and other products to non-Indian New Yorkers starting 3/1/06 (without exception) and was signed into law the next day. It was with both courage and conviction that Sheldon Silver and Joseph Bruno led the legislature to overturn Pataki's ill-advised veto, demonstrating their understanding of the urgency for stopping this outflow. The methodology of tax stamping of all cigarettes and the issuance of "exemption coupons" to tribal members was conceived 12 years ago and favorably ruled upon by the US Supreme Court.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/21/08 04:22 PM

Paterson needs to act.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/22/08 10:17 AM

State Looks to Collect Indian Taxes
Source: Finger Lakes News Radio

State officials are considering a new approach to collect taxes on sales of tax-free cigarettes sold by Indian retailers. Negotiators for the state Senate and Assembly tell the Buffalo News they are working on a deal that would make it illegal for tobacco manufacturers to sell cigarettes to any wholesaler who won't stop selling tax-free cigarettes to retailers on the Indian reservations in New York. Supporters say the state could reap more than $400 million in cigarette excise taxes currently lost to tax-free sales. Tax-avoidance schemes are expected to worsen since the state recently raised its excise tax to $2.75 per pack.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/12/08 04:40 PM

more tax dollars being lost.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/15/08 08:16 AM

Will paterson raise the taxes again next year while ignoring to collect the taxes from the tribes?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/28/08 01:00 PM

Will the tax loses per year double or triple with the recent tax increase?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/08 03:48 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.







?
.



Paterson can you use some more money?
time to start collecting the overdue money.



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/08/08 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.







?
.



Paterson can you use some more money?
time to start collecting the overdue money.



.



NY Senate passes Indian reservation tobacco tax
By: The Associated Press

Friday, August 8, 2008 3:26 PM EDT

ALBANY -- A bill given final approval in New York's legislature would require retailers on Indian reservations to charge a tax on tobacco sales.
The bill passed during a one-day special session of the state Senate on Friday.

The measure had already passed the Assembly, and will be sent to Gov. David Paterson. A spokeswoman in the governor's office says there won't be any comment until they have a chance to review the bill.

The American Cancer Society says the new tax could get about 100,000 people to quit smoking.

The bill was passed the same day the Senate supported a property tax cap.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/13/08 02:38 PM

When will the county or state step in and enforce the laws against the illegal tribal operations?


-----------------------------------------------------------------



Three Syracuse men charged in $50M gambling bust
by Catie O'Toole Saturday March 29, 2008, 11:12 AM
Syracuse, NY - Three Syracuse men arrested in a $20.3 million gambling operation in Central New York three years ago, are now accused of getting involved in one of the largest-scale gambling busts in the Capital Region.

George Bedigian, 63, of North McBride Street; Salvatore Tumino, 70, of North Salina Street; and Michael LoSurdo, 41, of Lakeside Road, are accused of taking part in a $50 million Internet sports betting ring, beginning in September 2006 and ending this month, according to The Albany Times Union.

The men were arrested Friday in the 800 block of North McBride Street in Syracuse.

Bedigian, considered by police as a longtime bookmaker, was named one of two "ringleaders" in the $50 million gambling operation, The Times Union reported.

In all, 12 men and one woman were arrested.

Bedigian and LoSurdo were charged with enterprise corruption, the state's version of the federal racketeering law.

Tumino is facing fourth-degree money laundering.
Posted by: Duude

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/13/08 04:58 PM

Most Corporations Don't Pay Income Taxes: GAO
By Richard Rubin, CQ Staff

Most corporations, including the vast majority of foreign companies doing business in the United States, pay no income taxes, according to a Government Accountability Office report released Tuesday.

During the eight-year period covered by the report, 72 percent of foreign-owned corporations went at least one year without owing taxes, and the same was true for 55 percent of domestic corporations.

Small companies were much more likely to pay no taxes than larger companies. Still, more than 3,500 large domestic corporations - with more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in gross receipts - did not pay taxes in 2005.

The report said about 80 percent of the companies studied paid no taxes because they didn't generate any profit after expenses. Money-losing companies can legitimately owe no tax, and others can use provisions of the tax code to lower or eliminate their liability.

But the lawmakers who sought the data seized on the report as proof of corporate gamesmanship.

"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Byron L. Dorgan , D-N.D., who requested the report along with Carl Levin , D-Mich. "The tax system that allows this wholesale tax avoidance is an embarrassment and unfair to hardworking Americans who pay their fair share of taxes. We need to plug these tax loopholes and put these corporations back on the tax rolls."

The report covered the period from 1998 through 2005. During that time, corporate income taxes as a share of gross domestic product dipped, from 2.2 percent in 1998 to 1.2 percent in 2003, the lowest share since 1983. But receipts jumped after that, hitting 2.7 percent in 2006 and 2007, according to the Office of Management and Budget. That was the highest share since the late 1970s.

The GAO report also found that foreign-owned corporations were somewhat more likely to report no income than domestic corporations. There are several possible reasons for that. Foreign corporations may be younger, and startups are more likely to have no net income after expenses. They may also be in industries with lower profit margins.

Another possibility could be the use of transfer pricing, which companies use to account for transactions between subsidiaries in different countries. Creative, rule-stretching use of transfer pricing can allow companies to push their profits into lower-taxed jurisdictions. The report does not attempt to examine whether illegal transfer-pricing caused the difference between foreign and domestic companies.

But companies looking for lower-taxed jurisdictions often take profits out of the United States. The country's 35 percent top rate on corporate income is among the highest in the industrialized world.

Many tax experts and lawmakers from both parties, including Ways and Means Chairman Charles B. Rangel , D-N.Y., and presidential candidate Sen. John McCain , R-Ariz., have called for lowering the corporate tax rate. Lawmakers are likely to differ on what revenue-raising measures, if any, should be paired with a corporate rate cut.

In addition, Levin, Finance Chairman Max Baucus , D-Mont., and other senators have been trying to close the "tax gap," the difference between taxes owed and taxes collected.

In a statement, Baucus said, "I'm committed to finding ways to improve compliance and reduce taxpayer burden so that we begin to bridge the tax gap, which accounts for $345 billion in legally owed but uncollected federal revenues each year."

He said the GAO report "shows yet again the need for full-fledged [tax] reform next year...."

"We are constantly reviewing the tax code to find ways to crack down on those who are trying to avoid paying their fair share, without placing undue compliance or reporting burdens on honest taxpayers. As part of this on-going effort, we are reviewing the GAO report to see what it might suggest about where to target tax gap efforts," Baucus said.
Posted by: Duude

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/15/08 11:42 AM

Merrill Lynch might not pay any corporation tax for the next 60 years, it emerged today.

The giant American investment bank, which employs thousands in the City, has made losses of $29 billion (£15 billion) for its exposure to the U.S. subprime mortgage crisis.

But it has charged the amount to its British arm, meaning it can offset the losses against corporation tax for decades to come.

Accountants say that the move, which is set to spark anger among ordinary taxpayers, is legal but unusual.

Merrill Lynch made dramatic writedowns on investments linked to the U.S. housing market. With millions of Americans now struggling to keep up mortgage repayments, the investments have sunk in value causing an economic crisis across the globe.

All big banks have suffered, but so far Merrill is the only one to charge the entire loss to the UK.

The move will reduce payments to the Government at a time when its finances are in disarray. It will also raise eyebrows in the City and cause consternation at the Treasury.

Robert Willens, a tax expert, said the move is not common. "Merrill will have to be able to say that the UK subsidiary was the owner of those securities.

"It does not matter where the derivatives unit is based or where the trades were executed. "The only thing that matters is who was the owner of the securities," he told the Financial Times.

The paper calculates that if Merrill starts making profits again at the rate it did in 2006 - a record year - it still won't have to pay any corporation tax for the next 60 years.

Merrill declined to comment. If the move is followed by rivals it could have a huge impact on government coffers.


This week New York mayor Mike Bloomberg said that many Wall Street firms will pay no tax this year due to their losses.

So far this year financial companies across the world have reported writeoffs totalling £250 billion. Economists say this figure could double before the credit crunch comes to an end.

Merrill has offices across London including a financial centre at Paternoster Square by St Paul's Cathedral. which houses two of the largest trading floors in Europe.

Accountants said that the tax structure allows Merrill to offset losses from one part of the business.

John Gu, a tax expert at KPMG International, said: "It obviously makes commercial sense, though it would be subject to certain legal and tax law restrictions. No company wants the mismatch by losing money on one unit while paying tax on another profitable operation."

Merrill was founded in 1914 and has become one of the world's biggest banks.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/18/08 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Duude
Most Corporations Don't Pay Income Taxes: GAO
By Richard Rubin, CQ Staff
The report covered the period from 1998 through 2005. During that time, corporate income taxes as a share of gross domestic product dipped, from 2.2 percent in 1998 to 1.2 percent in 2003, the lowest share since 1983. But receipts jumped after that, hitting 2.7 percent in 2006 and 2007 , according to the Office of Management and Budget. That was the highest share since the late 1970s.




The report covers from 1998 to 2007 and fails to mention that the taxes where paid prior to these years. A far cry from the tribes who have have to pay during any time frame.
The tribes fail to pay property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes...




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/18/08 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Duude
Merrill Lynch MIGHT NOT pay any corporation tax for the next 60 years, it emerged today.


Merrill was founded in 1914 and has become one of the world's biggest banks.


Will ML pay property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes...?


One would venture a guess and say that ML has paid far more in taxes over the past 94 years than the 600+ pseudo tribes combined. Casino shopping??
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/20/08 06:01 PM

Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Posted by: Duude

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/21/08 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/21/08 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/23/08 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.



Is this simple question too hard for you?




.
Posted by: Duude

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/23/08 01:02 PM

You can easily research so many Treaties that were broken. But why don't you list some Treaties that were honored and upheld?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/24/08 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Duude
You can easily research so many Treaties that were broken. But why don't you list some Treaties that were honored and upheld?


You are the one that made the statement that the treaties were not honor but yet you fail to present facts to support your side.
I am just looking for one aspect of a treaty that you feel has not been honored?

defend your statement or do not make that comment.


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/26/08 06:08 AM

tax stamps
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/29/08 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.



Is this simple question too hard for you?




.



?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/07/08 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.


Still waiting?????


Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.


.




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/09/08 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.


Still waiting?????


Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.


.




.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/13/08 02:05 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.






;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/21/08 07:57 PM

Paterson you will need to get the tribal taxes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/28/08 11:25 AM

enforce the laws.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/28/08 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?

As BZ asked - WHAT treaty are you referring to? Surely NOT the Treaty of Canandaigua in which was recognized the right of the tribes to sell their remaining lands, which they did. OH, THAT was the treaty where the Seneca guaranteed FREE passage across their State Reservation and then charged the state for the Thruway when it was built and billed the state last year for the vehicles using it? You mean THAT treaty that the TRIBE broke?
Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
The vast majority of treaties that the US signed with native tribes have NEVER been honored. I mean, if you really want, I can compile a list, but I feel like this is pretty common knowledge. Seems a bit hypocritical to say anything about natives simply following in the footsteps of your own "great" country.

Your COMMON knowledge only holds water in the movies. FACT is you can NOT name ONE treaty with a New York tribe that was not honored by the state and U.S.
Talk about hypocritical? To argue that enforcing the law would cause a loss of jobs or closure of businesses is a bit hypocritical. The tribes making those arguments closed down competitors and took jobs from legitimate tax paying businesses by intimidating the state to selectively enforce the law against everyone else. What about those people's rights?

Generalizations are meaningless in an effort to brainwash the masses that do not know. Do not JUST name a treaty, state the clause that was not honored and I can show you where it was either honored or ruled upon contrary to your opinion.

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Should we force the elimination of American Indian Reservations because they did not pay their fair share of taxes to New York State Almighty?

No. We should merely demand that our Governor enforce the laws.
Originally Posted By: Sausage
Why do you hate American Indians?

There are many UCE members with Indian heritage. Without them, we would not be nearly as effective as we are. The quest for equality under the law merely demands our own government to uphold the Constitution and laws of the land without regard to race. Most Indians are not tribal members.
Originally Posted By: FL1 Mod 2
Debate this issue all you want, but if your dont control yourselves with the personal bickering the thread will be shut down.

Originally Posted By: Sausage
Hey it doesnt matter to me...go for it.

Of course one who has lost the argument and resorted to name calling would love to have the facts removed from public display.
I do agree, back and forth posts serve no purpose.
Originally Posted By: SkySoldier
Is there any links you know of radily available to research what has to be hundreds of US Government / Native American treaties? Gotta be hundreds of them.

Yes, the CERA web site has a file which includes all the U.S. treaties but not the vast number of agreements made between the U. S. Government and Indian tribes after the close of the treaty period in 1871. These agreements altered many of the earlier treaties. Go to http://www.citizensalliance.org/ Click on Major Issues in the left hand column and then scroll down to Treaty Issues and click on the Native American Indian Treaties link. The treaties are listed by tribe, so treaties listed that include more than one tribe have the same listed under each tribe. I.E: 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua is listed as the TREATY WITH THE SIX NATIONS, 1794.
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?

Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Duude][quote=bluezone] What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?

Strangely, BZ cannot seem to get that question answered. Could it beeee the only ones that have not honored the treaties HERE are the tribes? I will NOT argue that the U.S. has not broken treaties with western tribes - they did.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/29/08 01:27 PM

Thanks RT.


I have asked the same question over and over again when ever someone states that NY has broken a treaty with a tribe. But for some strange reason the poster seems to disappear and fails to respond as to what treaty was broken.


I will conclude that not only has NY NOT broken a treaty with a tribe but all the laws that the tribes fail to obey in NY and the taxes they fail to pay are all a scam.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/29/08 01:29 PM

Go get 'em Mr. Bloomberg.................

----------------------------------------


NEW YORK (AP) — New York City is suing eight smoke shops that have been selling tax-free cigarettes on an Indian reservation.

The lawsuit accuses the small cluster of shops on the Poospatuck (POOS'-puh-tuhk) Indian Reservation of breaking state and federal law by selling massive quantities of cigarettes to bootleggers, who then smuggle the cartons off the Long Island reservation and resell them throughout the metropolitan area.

The practice has existed for years, but Mayor Michael Bloomberg's administration says it costs the city and state hundreds of millions of dollars a year in lost tax revenue.

Tribal authorities have long acknowledged that smuggling is a problem, but they defend the right of the shops to sell cigarettes without collecting state tobacco taxes.

Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/01/08 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.


Still waiting?????


Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.


.




.









still looking???????????????/




Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/01/08 04:21 AM

..."As much as we don't want to stoop to their level, it's time for the Cayugas and other Iroquois tribes to stand up and say this is enough," he said. ...

And what would be stooping to their level?

-----Obey NY laws and paying your taxes?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/03/08 08:01 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
..."As much as we don't want to stoop to their level, it's time for the Cayugas and other Iroquois tribes to stand up and say this is enough," Clint Halftown said. ...


Try paying your fair share and a motorcade will not be needed.



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/05/08 10:14 AM

Paterson needs to act.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/08 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.



Is this simple question too hard for you?




.


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR. Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.

... trust lands don't apply to New York State.




What treaty included these programs?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/09/08 07:17 AM

U.S. wants constitutional issues dropped
By JODY McNICHOL, Dispatch Staff Writer
10/08/2008

New Interior Department motion in land-into-trust appeal to be heard Nov. 7


WAMPSVILLE -The United States doesn't want to argue the Constitution.

The Department of Interior is asking the Second Circuit Court of Appeals to dismiss any complaint in the land into trust lawsuits that refer to the U.S. Constitution. The DOI made the decision to take 13,004 acres of land in Oneida and Madison counties into trust for the Oneida Indian Nation. Following that decision, the state, counties and some private organizations filed lawsuits against the DOI.


For the state and the counties of Madison and Oneida, the motion to dismiss refers to the first, second, and the 17th complaints, according to Rochester Attorney Dave Shraver.


Litigation expert on Indian affairs from the firm Nixon Peabody, Shraver gave a brief update on the land into trust lawsuits before the Madison County Native American Affairs Committee went into closed-door executive session Tuesday.


The first complaint says the delegation of authority from Congress to the Bureau of Indian Affairs is unconstitutional.


The second also refers to the delegation of authority, this time as it relates to the Tenth Amendment in the Constitution.


The amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."


County Attorney S. John Campanie said that the DOI's plan to take the acreage from New York state is contrary to the amendment.


The 17th complaint in the suit relates to the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which requires a two-step process. The state is arguing that the decision exceeds the authority of the DOI and that the decision cannot be made without the governor of the state and the secretary of the interior agreeing.


The state will respond that the points are valid, forcing the DOI to argue those issues before the rest of the complaints are addressed.


"If we win on one of those points, we win the whole case. If we lose, the case is still alive because the issues are still on the table," Campanie said.


Also, County Administrator Paul Miller briefed the committee on the New York State Association of Counties Conference held in Niagara Falls recently. Miller said NYSAC has committed to support legislation requiring the state to collect taxes on gasoline and cigarettes sold by Indian tribes. "More people are talking about it than I have ever heard at a conference before," Miller said.


The request to dismiss the complaints that argue the constitutionality of the DOI decision is scheduled to be heard by Judge Lawrence Kahn in Albany on Nov. 7.




©The Oneida Daily Dispatch 2008
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/17/08 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Duude
You can easily research so many Treaties that were broken. But why don't you list some Treaties that were honored and upheld?


Why don't show where a NY tribe has had a treaty broken?
Do not use another tribes example as it would not apply to NY or NY tribes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/17/08 04:00 PM

Woman charged with tax evasion
By The Citizen staff report

Friday, October 17, 2008 8:06 AM EDT




A local woman who traveled from Onondaga County to buy cigarettes in Union Springs was arrested for tax evasion after she was pulled over for running a red light, a trooper with the New York State Police said.

Gay Breed, 44, of Lysander, was driving home from Lake Side Trading convenience store in Union Springs when she turned left at a red light at the intersection of Routes 5 and 90, troopers said.

When the troopers pulled her over, they discovered that she had just purchased five boxes of untaxed cigarettes from Lake Side, a Cayuga Nation-owned business.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann said that knowingly purchasing more than two boxes of untaxed cigarettes was classified as a misdemeanor crime.

Each box contained 200 cigarettes.

But Breed's daughter, Victoria Breed, said her mother was not aware that her actions were against the law. When the officer asked to see what she had purchased, she just handed it right over without thinking anything was wrong, Victoria Breed said.

“I have just never heard of anything quite like that in my life,” she said, before adding that her mother was very shaken up after being arrested.

There is no law that would prevent the store from selling more than two boxes, Budelmann said.

And while people may not know that buying more than two boxes is tax evasion, Budelmann said they go to the trading post for the cheaper products that are not taxed.

Troopers said Breed was issued an Oct. 21 appearance ticket for Town of Aurelius Court.




-------------------------------------------


Enforce the laws at the source!



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/19/08 05:11 AM

;\)
Posted by: The Mask

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/19/08 05:44 AM


Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes

That is a lot of little old ladies.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/21/08 07:11 AM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/28/08 08:21 AM

Gov. David Paterson is getting ready to bring New Yorkers up to date about the state's financial problems -- and he's using words like "dismal" and "unfortunate."

During a stop in Buffalo today, Paterson says he will detail the state's budget deficit for this year and next on Tuesday. He says this year's budget deficit is in the neighborhood of $1.5 billion -- which is even more than the $1.2 billion he was projecting just a few weeks ago.

The governor says nothing will be off the table when the state Legislature meets next month to address the crisis. He's asked lawmakers to return to Albany Nov. 18 to cut spending.





--------------------------------------------------------

Howz about collecting the overdue monies from the tribes?


problem solved---------------------------------
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/29/08 08:47 AM

City Tries to Curtail Cigarette Sales From Reservation


By STEPHANIE SAUL
Published: October 28, 2008
Bootleg cigarette traffic from Long Island’s tiny Poospatuck reservation to New York City is brisk, so much so that some cigarette dealers on the reservation don’t even bother to set up storefronts, according to a motion filed in federal court on Tuesday.

Instead, the dealers take telephone orders for bulk shipments of untaxed cigarettes. Millions of them are delivered to the city by van and distributed through an underground network that dramatically undercuts tax collection, the city alleged.

The Bloomberg administration asked a federal judge in Brooklyn to bar the reservation’s eight largest dealers from selling untaxed cigarettes to the public. Those dealers, named as defendants in a federal lawsuit filed by the city last month, control 95 percent of the sales on the reservation, the city said.

Officials estimate that untaxed cigarette sales by the eight dealers have cut city revenues by nearly $195 million a year, an amount the city can ill afford during a financial crisis. In addition, bootleg cigarette traffic undermines a Bloomberg administration anti-smoking campaign.

“In making off-reservation sales, including bulk transactions in which defendants sell vanloads of cigarettes on a daily basis, which are then trafficked into New York City for resale, defendants grow rich at the expense of tax-paying retailers and city and state taxpayers,” lawyers for the city said in the 43-page memorandum requesting a preliminary injunction against the tribal dealers.

State and city taxes of $4.25 a pack push cigarettes to more than $9 a pack in the city, but the bootleg cigarettes are often sold for $5 by street peddlers, known as $5 men.

The city corporation counsel, Michael A. Cardozo, described the burgeoning cigarette businesses on the reservation in the papers filed in United States District Court in Brooklyn.

The State Department of Taxation and Finance said that the Poospatuck cigarette trade grew to 11.3 million cartons last year, up from 406,000 cartons in 1996. The court papers said that 24 million cartons of cigarettes had been sold by the Poospatuck reservation’s eight largest businesses since 2004.

The cigarette dealers claim they are within their rights because Indian sales are exempt from state taxation. “It’s just interfering and trying to interfere with the lawful retail trade on our land,” said Harry Wallace, chief of the Poospatuck tribe, who attended a hearing Monday on the issue.

But the exemption, city lawyers argue, does not apply to sales to the public, only to reservation residents. Moreover, they say that many of the proprietors are not members of the tribe.

Noting that only 279 Poospatucks live on the reservation, Eric Proshansky, a lawyer for the city, argued in an affidavit filed with the memorandum that, “If defendants’ 2007 purchases of 9,780,469 cartons were disposed of in reservation sales, every man, woman and child on the reservation would have had to consume approximately 960 packs of cigarettes a day, a patent absurdity.”

In the past 10 months, 49 new entities had been established to sell cigarettes from the reservation, the court papers said.

Some of the businesses are owned by the same people, and investigators have suggested that the new businesses were set up to thwart limits on sales established by cigarette manufacturers to allow for age verification.

The court papers detailed several specific shipments from reservation dealers that were observed by either confidential informants or state investigators working with the city.

One of them occurred on July 17, when the Nassau County police intercepted a van containing 1,200 cartons of unstamped cigarettes, apparently on its way to the city. A state investigator saw the van driver pick up the shipment at Smoking Arrow Smoke Shop, one of the larger businesses on the reservation and a defendant in the lawsuit. The owner of Smoking Arrow was not immediately available to respond to the allegations.

Another defendant, TDM Discount Cigarettes, does not maintain a storefront, a fact that indicates that TDM “engaged entirely in bulk sales,” the court papers said. A confidential informant said that TDM made deliveries to a storage location in Queens owned by cigarette resellers in the city, according to the court papers. A lawyer for TDM could not be reached for comment.

In addition to supplying cigarettes, some of the reservation cigarette dealers gave drivers tips for eluding police and, in other cases, provided escorts to help get the distributors off the reservation, the papers say.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/08 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: bluezone
What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?

Strangely, BZ cannot seem to get that question answered. Could it beeee the only ones that have not honored the treaties HERE are the tribes? I will NOT argue that the U.S. has not broken treaties with western tribes - they did.


Duude - did you find the answer yet?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/08 09:41 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.


?????



.
Still waiting?????


Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.


.




.













sill looking ???????



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/08 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


But the exemption, city lawyers argue, does not apply to sales to the public, only to reservation residents. Moreover, they say that many of the proprietors are not members of the tribe





Sounds like a treaty is being broken but by the tribes.




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/13/08 09:35 AM

Paterson do you have a clue?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/20/08 05:28 AM

;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/22/08 04:13 PM

Hillary will collect the taxes.
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/22/08 05:08 PM

You are with out a doubt a bigot and a cry baby... give it a rest.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/29/08 11:03 PM

RAID--------------------
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/01/08 05:53 PM

And a good one too.


This racket has got to be closed down. Most of the people making the big bucks off casinos, gas and cigs are not even native Americans.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/02/08 05:13 PM

The tax loses would seem to be higher considering that this small shop was pocketing $250,000 per day from cigarettes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/06/08 08:13 AM

Did Paterson sign the paperwork yet?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/06/08 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.







?
.



Paterson can you use some more money?
time to start collecting the overdue money.



.




..............
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/09/08 01:12 PM

Paterson?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/09/08 03:48 PM

Scott Rapp / The Post-Standard Tuesday December 09, 2008, 1:18 PM

State Supreme Court Judge Kenneth R. Fisher has rejected a request by the Cayuga Indian nation for an injunction barring Cayuga and Seneca counties from enforcing state tax laws regulating the sales of cigarettes.

The judge's ruling was released today.

Cayuga County legislator Raymond Lockwood said he has not seen the decision but said it "was very favorable to us." He was notified by the county's law firm, Harris Beach, of Rochester.

Sheriff's deputies in the two counties seized the cigarettes and records in coordinated simultaneous raids carried out two days before Thanksgiving.

The two stores have not sold cigarettes since the raids, but sales of cigars and other tobacco products have continued. Those tobacco products are regulated by a different section of state tax law and were not part of the county action.

The Cayugas had asked the judge to bar the counties from trying to enforce state law requiring the Indian nation to pay excise and sales tax due on cigarettes at the Cayuga's two LakeSide Trading stores, one in Union Springs and the other in Seneca Falls. The Cayugas also wanted the more than 17,000 cartons of cigarettes returned, along with business records.

Eleven lawyers made their cases in court last week.

It was clear then the case before Fisher would come down to this:

Do the Cayugas have sovereign nation rights to sell tax-free cigarettes at their LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls?

The lawyers representing the counties collectively argued that the nation lost sovereign rights in 2005 when the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a parallel land-claim case involving the Oneida Indian Nation. Later, a federal appeals court dismissed the Cayugas' land claim on similar grounds.

Lawyers for the Cayugas collectively disagreed and said the top court ruling did not disestablish their reservation, which they said still comprises 64,000 acres of ancestral homeland around the north end of Cayuga Lake.

They said the land on which the nation's stores sit is considered under state law to be a qualified reservation, which the lawyers said permits the Cayugas to sell tax-free cigarettes and other goods.

Lawyers for the Cayugas also argued that the counties are trying to enforce a state tax law that was enjoined from being enforced two years ago.

The cigarette tax issue was rekindled last month when sheriff's deputies from both counties raided the two stores and seized all of the nation's 17,600 cartons of cigarettes for not paying about $485,000 in state excise taxes on them. The excise tax does not include state sales tax.

District attorneys in both counties are considering filing criminal charges.






------------------------------------------------------

Paterson are you taking notes?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/12/08 03:51 AM

Paterson has 10 days to sign the bill.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/14/08 02:03 PM

8 days left?
Posted by: trump

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/14/08 02:58 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
8 days left?


I think I heard the last day to sign will be Dec 23rd. If he signs it, I bet it will be the last day. So close to Christmas a lot of people will not be paying attention.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/15/08 05:32 AM

Gov. David Paterson is expected to sign a bill on Monday that will require wholesalers to collect taxes on all tobacco and petroleum products before they are sold to businesses owned by American Indians, said state Sen. Michael Nozzolio.
“This bill will change the law to make it easier for the (state) tax department to collect taxes on products sold at Native American stores,” Nozzolio said. “The only thing worse than taxes is taxes that are imposed unequally and unfairly.”

After being passed by the state Assembly and Senate this past summer, the bill needs the governor's approval before it can take effect.

Under the current system, retailers are required to collect taxes when items are sold to a customer.

While American Indians are not required to collect taxes made on sales with other Indians, they are supposed to collect taxes on transactions with non-Indians.

The signing, which is scheduled to take place at 10 a.m. in Utica, comes a week after state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher rejected a lawsuit filed by the Cayuga Nation against the sheriffs and district attorneys offices in Cayuga and Seneca counties. The nation said law enforcement violated their sovereignty by raiding their Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls for untaxed cigarettes on Nov. 25.

Several New York state tribes, including the Cayuga Nation, have said their sovereignty exempts them from collecting sales or excise taxes on products sold by their businesses.

Fisher ruled the stores are not on a recognized reservation and that even though the state refused to help with the investigation, local law enforcement officials could still conduct their own felony investigations.

Both district attorneys' offices are planning to go to a grand jury to seek felony tax evasion charges against the tribe and both stores were closed by the nation on Wednesday while the tribe appeals Fisher's decision.

Even though several state and federal Supreme Court decisions allow states to collect taxes on sales made between tribes and non-Native Americans, Nozzolio said former governors Eliot Spitzer and George Pataki failed to enforce the state's tax laws on the region's tribes.

“There have been several jobs driven out of the area as a result of the state's failure to enforce the tax laws equally on Native Americans and non-Native Americans,” Nozzolio said. “This bill will allow the state to collect taxes on tobacco and petroleum before it gets delivered to Native Americans for sales.”

While the bill will only affect tobacco and petroleum, Nozzolio said the state's tax department can inventory a business's records to collect sales tax.

“This will be a tax that's placed on Native Americans and non-Native Americans because everyone should be taxed equally and fairly,” he said.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/17/08 11:05 AM

58 days?
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/24/08 06:10 PM


"Gov. David Paterson is expected to sign a bill on Monday that will require wholesalers to collect taxes on all tobacco and petroleum products before they are sold to businesses owned by American Indians, said state Sen. Michael Nozzolio. "

Today is the 24th.

Did Patterson sign it?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/27/08 07:59 AM

Yes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/30/08 11:42 AM


FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Tobacco wholesale company sued for failure to pay $18.4 million
By Michael Beebe
NEWS STAFF REPORTER


Federal attorneys have filed suit against a tobacco wholesale company owned by Arthur “Sugar” Montour, a former Seneca tribal councillor, for failing to pay $18.4 million in federal tobacco settlement assessments.

Montour’s company, Native Wholesale Supply Co., located on the Cattaraugus Reservation, is the exclusive American distributor for Seneca and Opal brand cigarettes manufactured in Canada by Grand River Enterprises, a Native American company.

Justice Department attorneys representing the U. S. Department of Agriculture allege that Native Wholesale Supply has failed to pay federal assessments for 2006 through 2008, as required under the tobacco master settlement agreement.

Native Wholesale Supply is closed through Jan. 5. Its New York City attorney did not return a call.

Seneca brand cigarettes are one of the best-selling Native American brands, and Grand River Enterprises has faced legal action by 30 state attorneys general, alleging the company has skirted requirements to comply with the agreement reached with the major U. S. tobacco companies.

Grand River, in turn, has filed a lawsuit against the state attorneys general in U. S. District Court in the Southern District of New York, as well as an action against the United States in an international tribunal, claiming damages under the North American Free Trade Agreement.

To learn the sales figures for Seneca brand cigarettes, the state attorneys general filed suit in U. S. District Court in Buffalo, trying to force Native Wholesale to divulge its cigarette purchases.

U. S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara agreed with the states on Nov. 20, ordering Native Wholesale to turn over its sales figures. Native Wholesale has appealed the order.

The separate lawsuit seeking payments from Native Wholesale Supply said it was incorporated under the laws of the Sac and Fox Indian Nations and has its principal address at 10955 Logan Road, Perrysburg.

Wendy M. Ertmer, a trial attorney with the Justice Department, said in the suit that Native Wholesale partially paid its 2005 assessment but since then has not paid anything or complied with reporting requirements since January 2007.

“As of its Sept. 1, 2008, statement,” the suit alleges, “[National Wholesale Supply’s] outstanding balance, with late payment interest, was $18,451,475.96.”

The lawsuit demands that Native Wholesale pay the owed amount and provide the government the information required by the settlement act.

Federal agents in 2004, at a time when Montour was a Seneca councillor, seized 90,000 cartons of his cigarettes under the federal Cigarette Contraband Trafficking Act.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/02/09 01:19 PM

“As of its Sept. 1, 2008, statement,” the suit alleges, “[National Wholesale Supply’s] outstanding balance, with late payment interest, was $18,451,475.96.”

The lawsuit demands that Native Wholesale pay the owed amount and provide the government the information required by the settlement act. "


!8 million doesn/t seem like so much when trillions are being handed out to the big business elite by our "representatives".
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/05/09 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot



My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion ; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR . Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.



-----------------------------------------



The HHS is the Indian Health Service, an agency that serves the needs of the 1.8 million members of the 560 federally recognized tribes. The Indian Health Service has 15,102 employees and in 2008 operated under a budget of $4.3 billion . I.H.S. oversees 46 hospitals, 324 health centers, 309 health stations, and 34 urban Indian health programs.


---------------------------------------


Is the $4.3 billion for the HHS included in the $5.7 billion for federal indian programs?



.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/10/09 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.


?????



.
Still waiting?????


Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.


.




.













still looking ???????



.


...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/10/09 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________



...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/17/09 02:56 PM

Paterson to discuss the issue.
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/17/09 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson to discuss the issue.
Big deal, you must be one big racist, because that's the only thing you whine about is the nations.
Posted by: trump

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/17/09 03:53 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson to discuss the issue.
Big deal, you must be one big racist, because that's the only thing you whine about is the nations.


How does wanting everyone to be treated equally make one a racist?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/09 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson to discuss the issue.
Big deal, you must be one big racist, because that's the only thing you whine about is the nations .



Nations?

Tribes!

;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/09 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?

What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?
.

?????
.
Still waiting?????
Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.
.




still looking ???????
.

.


Harley can you answer the above question?

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/09 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot



My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion ; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR . Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.



Harley how about you send me a yearly check for $929 million?


.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/25/09 06:47 AM

Post-raid sales spike
Store owners say Lake Side closing has made huge difference

By DAVID L. SHAW, Finger Lakes Times
Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:11 AM CST

SENECA FALLS — Cigarette sales have surged for area convenience stores since the Cayuga Indian Nation closed its Seneca Falls store Dec. 10.

Owners of four stores have reported a tripling or quadrupling of business since the tribe’s Lake Shore Trading store on Route 89 closed shortly after a Nov. 25 law enforcement raid seized all of their untaxed cigarettes.

Now, the tribe’s lawyers have been able to get a temporary injunction to prevent criminal tax evasion charges until an appeal of the legality of the raid is decided in May or June. The five-judge state Appellate Division Court that granted the injunction also said the Cayugas could seek to have the seized cigarettes returned, if State Supreme Court Judge Kenneth R. Fisher agrees.

If that happens, the Nation may reopen its store.

And that worries non-Indian convenience store owners who’ve benefited from the closure.

Howard Strader, owner of D & M Grocery Store on Swift Street in Waterloo the past 11 years, said the numbers are startling.

“The increase in our business at this little store has been huge,’’ Strader said.

He said when the Lake Side Trading Store was open and selling untaxed cigarettes at deep discounts, his store sold about 165 cartons of cigarettes a week.

Since they closed, he’s been selling an average of 415 cartons a week. Each carton generates $31.20 in pre-paid state excise tax, plus 8 percent sales tax.

Half of that goes to the state and the other half goes to Seneca County.

“That increase has produced an increase in tax to the state from $5,230 to $13,155 a week, a difference of more than $7,000. That’s for one small neighborhood store,’’ Strader said.

He said tobacco customers who come to his store also end up buying other items — milk, soda, beer, snacks and groceries.

He said lottery sales are flat, speculating that smokers are having to pay more for cigarettes and don’t have that extra cash they might spend on tickets.

Strader said his store did $90,200 worth of business in December 2007. In December 2008, that number jumped to $184,000.

“I’ll be bummed out big time if they reopen the Cayuga store and they continue to sell untaxed cigarettes again,’’ Strader said. He said the Cayugas should either pay the same taxes as he does or not be able to reopen and sell untaxed cigarettes, especially in light of a new law signed by the governor.

Jack Kahn runs the Express Gas Plus Convenience Store on Auburn Road in Seneca Falls.

“I have definitely benefited from the Indian store being closed, as have many others in this area. I’d say cigarette sales alone are triple what they were before the store closed,’’ Kahn said.

Gasoline sales are also up slightly, but cigarette sales have generated more profit and sales tax income for the state and county than ever before.

“It would not be fair if they reopened and go back to doing what the judge has said is illegal all over again,’’ Kahn said.

“If they reopen and pay the taxes like everyone else, I have no problem with that,’’ he said. “Or if they exempt all stores from paying the taxes, which isn’t likely.”

Edward Feek, manager of the Nice N’ Easy convenience store on Fall Street, Seneca Falls, said his cigarette business also has tripled since Dec. 10, with other sales also up slightly.

Robert and Mary Plate took over Jean Jean’s Store on Washington Street in Waterloo 21⁄2 years ago.

Rob Plate said it was never a big volume store while Lake Side Trading was open, making enough to pay the bills and earn a small profit.

“But we’ve done very well since they closed. Cigarette sales in particular,’’ Plate said.

The store did about $300 worth of cigarette sales a week before Dec. 10. It’s been about $1,200 a week since.

“Sales of soda, beer, snacks are also up. Our profits are up. We’re seeing new smokers and smokers who left us to go to the tribe’s store coming back,’’ Plate said.

Daniel French, a lawyer for the Cayuga Nation, said the tribe’s plans for the store, along with a similar store in Union Springs, Cayuga County, may be announced Monday.

Options are to apply to Fisher for an order to return the seized cigarettes or to reach an agreement with Seneca and Cayuga county officials to return the items or buy new stock.

Sheriff’s deputies seized more than 17,000 cartons of untaxed cigarettes in the raids on the two Lake Side Trading stores.

“It would be wrong to go back to the way it was,’’ said Plate. “It’s not a level playing field. We’d lose back what we’ve gained.”

dshaw@fltimes.com
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 09:29 AM




http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net




.
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


Would you like a little cheese with your whine...sir.
Posted by: jkjason

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 12:01 PM

burn any non-tax paying stores to the ground until they comply. that'll get their attention... problem is no one of stature wants to fight the battles the old fashion way anymore... for the most part we let the minority rule our country any more. I am not talking race or nationality... just politics... everyone starts on the same page. no more no less... you pay your dues earn it or lose it on your own merits...
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 12:51 PM

Originally Posted By: jkjason
burn any non-tax paying stores to the ground until they comply. that'll get their attention... problem is no one of stature wants to fight the battles the old fashion way anymore... for the most part we let the minority rule our country any more. I am not talking race or nationality... just politics... everyone starts on the same page. no more no less... you pay your dues earn it or lose it on your own merits...

What ever!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT

Would you like a little cheese with your whine...sir.



Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot



My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion ; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR . Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.




Harley how about you send me a yearly check for $929 million?

Or is it in the mail



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: jkjason
burn any non-tax paying stores to the ground until they comply. that'll get their attention... problem is no one of stature wants to fight the battles the old fashion way anymore... for the most part we let the minority rule our country any more. I am not talking race or nationality... just politics... everyone starts on the same page. no more no less... you pay your dues earn it or lose it on your own merits...

What ever!!


But if the tribes shot at NY troopers or burn tires then that is allowable.


Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: jkjason
burn any non-tax paying stores to the ground until they comply. that'll get their attention... problem is no one of stature wants to fight the battles the old fashion way anymore... for the most part we let the minority rule our country any more. I am not talking race or nationality... just politics... everyone starts on the same page. no more no less... you pay your dues earn it or lose it on your own merits...

What ever!!


But if the tribes shot at NY troopers or burn tires then that is allowable.



I'm not letting you suck me into your hatred pal... Give it up, that's all you talk about. You sound like a little kid that think's they got shorted a piece of candy... put a cork in it.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 03:40 PM

Is the Supreme Court ruling AGAINST the cayugas due to hate?
Read the Sherrill decision in which the cayugas lost.

Is Michael Bloomberg going after the tribes due to hate?
Or is it because what the tribe is doing is ILLEGAL?

ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL



NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York City sued eight Native American reservation stores on Long Island for not collecting the city's cigarette taxes, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said on Monday, demanding the governor enforce the law .

The anti-smoking independent who first developed a national reputation by banning smoking in bars and restaurants, equated cigarettes to murder and said Gov. David Paterson should use the state police and the national guard to collect the taxes.

"I think the governor should go to the reservation and say 'As of tomorrow morning, we are stopping this practice,' and if it requires law enforcement, that's what the governor has the state police for," Bloomberg said.

One reason New York City charges among the highest U.S. cigarette taxes is to encourage smokers to quit, and the mayor noted that kids respond quickly to changes in prices.

"This kills people; it isn't that far-fetched to compare the two," Bloomberg told reporters, drawing a parallel between smoking and murder. A carton of 200 cigarettes can cost as much as $70 and around half of that price is taxes, a city official said.

New York City can only seize cigarettes that lack tax stamps within its borders. The Poospatuck Reservation is located in Mastic, about 65 miles east of New York City on Long Island, and the city filed its suit in the federal court for New York's eastern district, seeking to force the tribe to collect taxes.

A tribal official was not immediately available. Nor were spokesman for the Democratic governor, the Republican Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos, who last week said the state must collect these taxes to help close its deficit, and Democratic Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver.

New York's Native American tribes say their immunity from taxes springs from their status as sovereign nations. For more than a decade they have blocked the state's attempts to enforce the collection of cigarette taxes from reservation convenience stores despite a series of court battles and legislation.

Perhaps the last serious enforcement effort dates back to 1997, when former Republican Gov George Pataki backed down after 12 state troopers were injured during tire-burning protests by two upstate tribes.

Seeking to demonstrate how widespread the practice of reservation stores selling cigarettes to non-Native Americans has become, city spokesman Jason Post estimated that the stores on the Poospatuck Reservation sell 960 packs of cigarettes per day for each of the 260 tribal residents.

New York City says the tribal stores' failure to collect city cigarette taxes cost it $195 million a year. The city and state together lose $720 million a year in tax revenue from reservation sales.

A new federal law strengthens New York City's case because it makes it clear that states and local governments can bring these types of lawsuits, a city official said. He noted the city can take advantage of this provision, unlike a previous and largely unsuccessful lawsuit by a grocery store chain, which argued that the tribal stores were unfairly competing by not charging taxes.

Like the state, the city also must close a big hole in next year's budget, and Bloomberg noted that Wall Street will owe few taxes for several years, as banks and brokerages carry forward huge losses. (Reporting by Joan Gralla; Additional reporting by Edith Honan; Editing by Tom Hals)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 03:42 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
I'm not letting you suck me into your hatred pal... Give it up, that's all you talk about. You sound like a little kid that think's they got shorted a piece of candy... put a cork in it.



200 year land claims??????



So tell me Harley are the tribes "sovereign"??

?????
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
I'm not letting you suck me into your hatred pal... Give it up, that's all you talk about. You sound like a little kid that think's they got shorted a piece of candy... put a cork in it.



200 year land claims??????





So tell me Harley are the tribes "sovereign"??

?????

I don't care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fine something new to whine about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 06:36 PM

Can I be a Walloon Freedom Fighter? \:\/

Have you sent me my $929 million check for the year?
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/09 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Can I be a Walloon Freedom Fighter? \:\/

Have you sent me my $929 million check for the year?


Can you be a Walloon Freedom Fighter?
Yes, but only if your a Walloon.

Ahahahah... send you a check for 929 million, what are you from planet stupid. Bluezone you really do need to get a life.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 11:11 AM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT

Can you be a Walloon Freedom Fighter?
Yes, but only if your a Walloon.


What are you fighting for?
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT

Can you be a Walloon Freedom Fighter?
Yes, but only if your a Walloon.


What are you fighting for?


Freedom!
Posted by: jkjason

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 11:57 AM

hey harley I HATE NO ONE BECAUSE OF RACE COLOR OR CREED. I only want them to pay the same taxes as the rest of us. My inlaws actually have indian blood and they pay taxes why shouldn't the rest of them pay too. we are all americans no one should have any sovergianty within our borders.. the war is over they lost.. hey we let em live and stay here and become citizens of the united states of america..so we have done our fair share. It's long over due for this to become a dead issue. congress needs to put an end to this issue and close the case. never to be reopened. get rid of all reservations and turn them into national parks for all americans to enjoy. stop sniffing the fumes from your bike...I think they are affecting your brain cells man.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT

Can you be a Walloon Freedom Fighter?
Yes, but only if your a Walloon.


What are you fighting for?


Freedom!


From who?
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT

Can you be a Walloon Freedom Fighter?
Yes, but only if your a Walloon.


What are you fighting for?


Freedom!


From who?

People like you!
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:22 PM

Originally Posted By: jkjason
hey harley I HATE NO ONE BECAUSE OF RACE COLOR OR CREED. I only want them to pay the same taxes as the rest of us. My inlaws actually have indian blood and they pay taxes why shouldn't the rest of them pay too. we are all americans no one should have any sovergianty within our borders.. the war is over they lost.. hey we let em live and stay here and become citizens of the united states of america..so we have done our fair share. It's long over due for this to become a dead issue. congress needs to put an end to this issue and close the case. never to be reopened. get rid of all reservations and turn them into national parks for all americans to enjoy. stop sniffing the fumes from your bike...I think they are affecting your brain cells man.


Ahahah.... that's like you crying about someone got a bigger piece of candy. I don't care if if they pay taxes or not as a matter of fact I don't care if you pay taxes. I just don't care.
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:28 PM

One last thing please don't reply because I'm done with this thread, you people make me think of little kids fighting. Say what you want, but you nitwits need to go launder your clan hoods because you have a lot of hate on them.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Ahahahah... send you a check for 929 million, what are you from planet stupid. Bluezone you really do need to get a life.


Ahahahah... send you a check for 929 million, what are you from planet Cayuga. Harley you really do need to get a life.
Posted by: trump

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: jkjason
hey harley I HATE NO ONE BECAUSE OF RACE COLOR OR CREED. I only want them to pay the same taxes as the rest of us. My inlaws actually have indian blood and they pay taxes why shouldn't the rest of them pay too. we are all americans no one should have any sovergianty within our borders.. the war is over they lost.. hey we let em live and stay here and become citizens of the united states of america..so we have done our fair share. It's long over due for this to become a dead issue. congress needs to put an end to this issue and close the case. never to be reopened. get rid of all reservations and turn them into national parks for all americans to enjoy. stop sniffing the fumes from your bike...I think they are affecting your brain cells man.


Ahahah.... that's like you crying about someone got a bigger piece of candy. I don't care if if they pay taxes or not as a matter of fact I don't care if you pay taxes. I just don't care.


Now you are being totally riduclous. Who do you think is going to pay the taxes to keep our government running? We all need to pay our fair share. To say that you don't care if someone else pays their their fair share of taxes xmakes you a very irresponsable citizen.
Posted by: trump

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/09 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: jkjason
hey harley I HATE NO ONE BECAUSE OF RACE COLOR OR CREED. I only want them to pay the same taxes as the rest of us. My inlaws actually have indian blood and they pay taxes why shouldn't the rest of them pay too. we are all americans no one should have any sovergianty within our borders.. the war is over they lost.. hey we let em live and stay here and become citizens of the united states of america..so we have done our fair share. It's long over due for this to become a dead issue. congress needs to put an end to this issue and close the case. never to be reopened. get rid of all reservations and turn them into national parks for all americans to enjoy. stop sniffing the fumes from your bike...I think they are affecting your brain cells man.


Very well said jkjason.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/30/09 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT

Ahahah.... that's like you crying about someone got a bigger piece of candy. I don't care if if they pay taxes or not as a matter of fact I don't care if you pay taxes. I just don't care.



Have you sent me my $929 million dollar check yet?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/30/09 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
One last thing please don't reply because I'm done with this thread, you people make me think of little kids fighting. Say what you want, but you nitwits need to go launder your clan hoods because you have a lot of hate on them.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/30/09 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

So tell me Harley are the tribes "sovereign"??

?????



run like the others
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/30/09 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson to discuss the issue.
Big deal, you must be one big racist, because that's the only thing you whine about is the nations .



Nations?

tribes!

;\)



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/02/09 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/05/09 08:40 AM

State sues smoke shops, officials

Drew Edmondson: The attorney general's lawsuit, filed on behalf of the Oklahoma Tax Commission, alleges a conspiracy by several smoke shop owners and Creek Nation officials to violate federal and state laws on Oklahoma cigarette sales.
By OMER GILLHAM World Staff Writer
Published: 2/5/2009 2:35 AM


The Oklahoma Tax Commission is suing more than a dozen Creek Nation smoke shop owners and several Creek Nation officials, alleging that they conspired to violate federal and state laws governing cigarette sales in Oklahoma.

Attorney General Drew Edmondson filed the lawsuit Wednesday in Tulsa County District Court.

The defendants include 15 individuals who own or operate Creek Nation- affiliated smoke shops, including Creek Nation Council member Steve Bruner. Additional defendants are Toney Lee, manager of Muscogee (Creek) Nation Tobacco Wholesale, and Garry Berryhill Sr., manager of Creek Nation Travel Plaza Enterprises.

Creek Nation Tobacco Wholesale is not licensed with the Oklahoma Tax Commission to sell tobacco products in Oklahoma, the lawsuit states.

The filing claims that "the object of the conspiracy was to produce unlawful profits and gain from the sale of cigarettes in violation of the Federal Contraband Cigarette Trafficking Act, the State Complementary Act and State Cigarette Tax Act."

The lawsuit highlights the bitter battle between the Tax Commission and smoke shop owners who have alleged that the state has not negotiated fairly with the tribe for a new tobacco compact.

For the past four years, the Creek Nation has refused to sign a new compact because it allegedly does not protect the historic tax advantage the tribe has had over nontribal retailers.

Without a tobacco compact, Creek-affiliated stores have created various methods of obtaining low-tax cigarettes and cigarettes without state tax stamps to compete in the Tulsa area, a high-tax zone, a Tulsa World investigation has shown.

From the state's point of view, these methods are a conspiracy. In essence, the Tax Commission is alleging that Creek Nation Tobacco Warehouse is coordinating the sale and delivery of millions of packs of cigarettes without Oklahoma tax stamps and which are not listed on the state's master cigarette directory.

The list is derived from the Master Settlement Agreement, reached with cigarette manufacturers in 1998. Seneca, King Mountain and Skydancer brand cigarettes are being sold by the smoke shops but are not on the list, the World investigation showed.

Smoke shop owners from Muskogee, Broken Arrow, Holdenville, Okemah, Tulsa, Okmulgee and elsewhere are alleged to be buying and selling cigarettes without an Oklahoma tax stamp, court records state. Additionally, many of the smoke shops are selling low-tax cigarettes that should be reserved for smoke shops along the Oklahoma border in competition with the tax rates of bordering states.

The lawsuit alleges that between February 2007 and May 2008, Creek Nation Tobacco Wholesale purchased or had delivered 5,330,100 packs of unstamped cigarettes to its headquarters in Okmulgee. The cigarettes allegedly were purchased from Native Wholesale Supply Co. by way of Nevada International Trade Corp., the operator of a foreign trade zone in Las Vegas. The cigarettes were manufactured by Grand River Enterprises Six Nations Ltd.

An investigation by the Tulsa World in August revealed that Native Wholesale Supply was being sued by the state on allegations that it violated the Master Settlement Agreement. The lawsuit was filed in May in Oklahoma County District Court and moved to federal court Aug. 6.

The Tax Commission says the conspiracy is costing the state millions of dollars in tax revenues that are designated to be spent on health initiatives and to reduce the number of smokers in Oklahoma.

The state is seeking damages for the loss of tax revenues caused by the alleged conspiracy and the sale of low-tax cigarettes in high-tax zones, court records show.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/08/09 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot



My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion ; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR . Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.




Harley how about you send me a yearly check for $929 million?

Or is it in the mail






Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/10/09 07:56 AM

\:D \:D \:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/15/09 06:57 AM

State Supreme Court Justice Kenneth R. Fisher promised Friday to issue decisions Monday or Tuesday on two legal disputes between the Cayuga Indian Nation and Seneca and Cayuga counties.

Fisher told lawyers for the Cayugas they had “chutzpah,’’ a Yiddish word meaning “audacity, effrontery or utter nerve,’’ for reopening their two stores and again selling cigarettes.

The first issue argued was whether the counties should be required to return 17,500 cartons of cigarettes seized in a Nov. 25 raid of the tribe’s convenience stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs.

The Nation took the counties to court, asking that they be required to either return the cigarettes or post a $500,000 bond to cover their losses if they are not returned in a timely manner.

The tribe said it would stipulate or agree on the record that so many cartons were taken from the stores and that they did not contain state tax stamps.

They also asked for the return of seized computers and business records.

Attorney Karl Sleight of the Harris Beach law firm, representing the counties, disagreed.

He said the stipulation offer by the Nation is unacceptable.

Seneca County District Attorney Richard E. Swinehart and Cayuga County District Attorney Jon E. Budelmann each have presented cases to grand juries in their counties and obtained three sealed indictments in connection with the sale of untaxed cigarettes.

The indictments were handed up Dec. 11 but will not be made known or prosecuted until the Cayugas’ appeal is decided this spring.

Fisher also heard arguments on the counties’ claim that the tribe’s reopening of its two convenience stores Jan. 30 and continued selling of untaxed cigarettes to non-Indians is in contempt of Fisher’s Dec. 9 decision or a violation of state tax law.

He told Fisher that in reopening their stores Jan. 30, the Cayugas “flaunted’’ his decision and “snubbed its nose at the court as if the Appellate Court had already reached a decision in their favor.”

Fisher questioned whether the counties’ arguments met the standard for contempt.

Spellane said the pending Appellate Court decision on the Cayugas’ appeal applies only to criminal prosecution.

Alcott said the Nation has received an independent legal opinion that the tribe is within its rights to reopen the stores and sell the cigarettes until the appeal is decided.

He said he understands the frustration of the counties and their district attorneys in not being able to reap the reward of Fisher’s decision in their favor.

“My order said the sale of untaxed cigarettes to non-Indians on these properties violates Section 471-e,’’ Fisher replied. “I realize that the Appellate Court has said they can’t prosecute now, but it takes a lot of chutzpah to open up and sell these cigarettes again.”

Alcott disagreed and said the law says the district attorneys are powerless to stop them.

Swinehart and Budelmann both argued they have the right to enforce county and state laws.

After Fisher issues his rulings next week, either side can appeal.

By DAVID L. SHAW
Finger Lakes Times
Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:12 AM CST
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/15/09 11:46 PM

“My order said the sale of untaxed cigarettes to non-Indians on these properties violates Section 471-e,’’ Fisher replied. “I realize that the Appellate Court has said they can’t prosecute now, but it takes a lot of chutzpah to open up and sell these cigarettes again.”

"Alcott disagreed and said the law says the district attorneys are powerless to stop them.

Swinehart and Budelmann both argued they have the right to enforce county and state laws.

After Fisher issues his rulings next week, either side can appeal."


Enforce them.

Waiting for Fisher is like waiting for Christmas, the more you think about it the longer it takes to arrive.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/16/09 01:33 AM

No replies yet? I even cited a link earlier where one can research all the treaties.

LaughinWillow Are you going to honor their original treaties? No?
LW - you are full of bunk. Cite ANY treaty phrase in ANY treaty with a New York tribe that has been broken except by the tribes themselves!

LaughinWillow I can compile a list, but I feel like this is pretty common knowledge.
LW - You cannot compile one phrase in one treaty and obviously have no common knowledge. Your common knowledge is based on the Big Lie theory.

EVERY act of Congress supersedes a treaty.

EVERY ruling by SCOTUS applies to the whole country and also supersedes treaties.

A treaty being the law of the land is no different than any other law.

Tribes are wards of the federal government. Tribal members are citizens of the U.S. AND the State in which they reside.

The only treaties ever broken in New York were broken by the tribes.

Honor the treaties? Remit the sales and excise taxes. SCOTUS has ruled that such exclusion was not and is not in any treaty. It would not matter if these were reservation lands. These same tax laws apply.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/16/09 04:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
No replies yet? I even cited a link earlier where one can research all the treaties.



No replies as all the posters that make this statment seem to vanish when asked to provide proof of their claim.

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
#602857 - 07/12/07 10:51 PM ... and cheated out of what they were promised in almost every single treaty your country signed with them... Are you going to honor their original treaties? No? Then maybe you should quit your whining. God.


LaughinWillow has had over 19 months to form a response but has failed to provide any facts. The same lame old propaganda from the wannabe members.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/18/09 05:03 PM

Judge: Cayugas can't sell untaxed cigarettes

By: The Citizen staff report

Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:02 PM EST
The Cayuga Indian Nation of New York will not get its seized cigarettes back, and it must stop selling untaxed cigarettes to non-Indian customers at its Union Springs and Seneca Falls stores, a judge ruled Wednesday.
State Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher issued a pair of decisions that favored the district attorney offices of Cayuga and Seneca counties in their prosecution of the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York over untaxed cigarettes.

The nation had earlier secured a preliminary injunction from the state Appellate Division that prevented the counties from moving forward on their prosecutions of the cases until it could make a final decision on the case.

But Fisher, who signed the original search warrants in the case and declared the counties' actions lawful a couple of weeks later, said the appeals court's injunction merely preserved the status quo at the time it was issued. And the Cayugas were not selling untaxed cigarettes at time; in fact, the stores were closed.

Fisher also noted that the Appellate Division gave no indication in its written orders which way it was leaning in terms of the merits of the case.

For more on this story, see Thursday's edition of The Citizen.
Posted by: SkySoldier

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/18/09 05:08 PM

AWRIGHTY THEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




This is a victory for all the good citizens of Cayuga and Seneca Counties that DO pay and collect sales taxes!


This is a victory for all those mom and pop stores the "indians" were scamming out of a living!


Made.
my.
Night!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/19/09 11:25 AM

Do you think the tribe will comply?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/19/09 06:11 PM

Just for Harley. ;\)


PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETING—FEBRUARY 25, 2009
Seneca County and Cayuga County will be holding a public information meeting on the Cayuga Indian Nation’s Land into Trust application.

Representatives of the Counties will discuss the status of the application to the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and the next steps in the application process. Under the federal environment review process, the BIA will release the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for public review and comment. At the meeting we will discuss the Scoping Report issued by the BIA and the impacts that will likely be evaluated in the DEIS and those issues that will not be evaluated. The public will hear how it can most effectively respond to the DEIS during the comment period to assure that the full impacts of the application are identified and evaluated.

For background, we urge you to review the Scoping Report found in this website. The report was prepared for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and is guiding the preparation of the DEIS.

The meeting will also provide an opportunity for the public to comment on the application and the likely community impacts of placing the lands into trust. These comments will be recorded for the public record.

The meeting will be held at 7 pm on Wednesday, February 25 in Student Lounge (Main Building), Franklin Street on the campus of Cayuga Community College in Auburn.
Current Public InformationPublic Meeting--February 25
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/21/09 06:30 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Can I be a Walloon Freedom Fighter? \:\/

Have you sent me my $929 million check for the year?



\:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/23/09 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Just for Harley. ;\)


PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETING—FEBRUARY 25, 2009
Seneca County and Cayuga County will be holding a public information meeting on the Cayuga Indian Nation’s Land into Trust application.

Representatives of the Counties will discuss the status of the application to the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and the next steps in the application process. Under the federal environment review process, the BIA will release the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for public review and comment. At the meeting we will discuss the Scoping Report issued by the BIA and the impacts that will likely be evaluated in the DEIS and those issues that will not be evaluated. The public will hear how it can most effectively respond to the DEIS during the comment period to assure that the full impacts of the application are identified and evaluated.

For background, we urge you to review the Scoping Report found in this website. The report was prepared for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and is guiding the preparation of the DEIS.

The meeting will also provide an opportunity for the public to comment on the application and the likely community impacts of placing the lands into trust. These comments will be recorded for the public record.

The meeting will be held at 7 pm on Wednesday, February 25 in Student Lounge (Main Building), Franklin Street on the campus of Cayuga Community College in Auburn.
Current Public InformationPublic Meeting--February 25


harley \:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/25/09 06:47 AM

Court rules for state in American Indian land case

The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 24, 2009; 10:41 AM

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court on Tuesday limited the federal government's authority to hold land in trust for Indian tribes, a victory for states seeking to impose local laws and control over development on Indian lands.

The court's ruling applies to tribes recognized by the federal government after the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act.

The U.S. government argued that the law allows it to take land into trust for tribes regardless of when they were recognized, but Justice Clarence Thomas said in his majority opinion that the law "unambiguously refers to those tribes that were under the federal jurisdiction" when it was enacted.

The ruling comes in a case involving the Narragansett Indian Tribe in Rhode Island and a 31-acre tract of land.

At issue was whether the land, in Charlestown, R.I., should be subject to state law, including a prohibition on casino gambling, or whether the parcel should be governed by tribal and federal law.

The dispute dates to 1991, when the Narragansetts purchased the land to build an elderly housing complex, which remains incomplete.

The 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Boston rejected the state's argument that Rhode Island should be the applicable authority. The high court reversed the appellate ruling.

Justice Stephen Breyer, who joined the majority opinion, indicated that it is possible that tribes not recognized by the federal government before the 1934 law might still have been under federal jurisdiction "even though the federal government did not believe so at the time." As an example, Breyer said, the government has acknowledged that some tribes were mistakenly left off a list the Interior Department compiled following the law's enactment.

But Breyer said he did not forsee that possibility for the Narragansetts.

Only Justice John Paul Stevens fully dissented from Thomas' opinion, which he called a "cramped reading" of the 1934 law.

A spokeswoman for Rhode Island Gov. Don Carcieri did not immediately return a call seeking comment. Jack Killoy, an attorney for the Narragansett Indian Tribe, said he had not read the decision and could not immediately discuss it.

The case is Carcieri v. Salazar, 07-526.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/03/09 03:30 PM

Paterson Heading to Buffalo Area
by Yevette Collins
Published Mar 03, 2009

Governor David Paterson visits Niagara Falls Wednesday, for another Town Hall-style meeting.

Tuesday morning he called into Buffalo radio station WBEN. Paterson fielded questions about everything from the state's fiscal crisis to the tax issue involving the Cayuga and Seneca Indian Nations' cigarette sales.

"This has been a problem for 30-years and what we think we're going to do is look at our department of taxation in terms of creating a way in which those who do business with those entities will not get, in other words, cooperation from New York state. Because it's killing our small businesses ," the Governor said.



Paterson plans to hold a Town Hall meeting in Rochester, March 11, at the Riverside Convention Center. Doors open at 4:30 p.m. and the event begins at 5:30 p.m..

On March 12, he holds the second student Town Hall meeting at SUNY Geneseo's Wadsworth Auditorium. Doors open at 10 a.m. and that event begins at 11 a.m.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/05/09 07:02 AM

The Cayuga Nation of New York suffered another legal setback on Wednesday after the state's Appellate Division ruled that the tribe cannot continue selling untaxed cigarettes to non-tribe members until after a felony tax evasion appeal is handled next month.
The decision upholds state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher's Feb. 18 decision, where he ruled that the nation must respect a prior ruling where he decided the nation could be charged with felony tax evasion for selling untaxed cigarettes to non-Native American Indians.

Fisher is the same judge who approved the search warrants allowing the counties to raid the Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls on Nov. 25. A couple of weeks later, when the Cayugas took the counties to court challenging the legality of the raids and the investigation, Fisher ruled that the district attorneys can pursue a felony tax evasion prosecution against the tribe because the nation does not have a recognized reservation according to New York state tax laws.

The Cayugas have appealed that decision, and an appellate court will hear the case on April 3. The case was originally scheduled for a hearing in late May.

Lee Alcott, an attorney for the tribe, said that the Cayugas will respect Wednesday's decision, and that the stores have not sold cigarettes since the Feb. 18 ruling.

“While we are obviously somewhat disappointed that the court did not impose a stay as the nation had requested, the nation remains optimistic by the fact that the appellate court has moved up the appeal which will be heard in less than a month,” Alcott said.

Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann said the ruling confirms that a temporary injunction issued by the appellate court on Jan. 21, which prevents him from filing sealed grand jury indictments the nation until the after the appeal is heard, was only meant to maintain the status quo.

“Whatever talk (the nation) had into past appellate court decisions indicating which way the court was leaning have been blown away,” Budelmann said. “Our reading into this decision is that the court wants to maintain the status quo.”

At the heart of the appeal is what section of the tax law can the nation be charged with violating.

The tribe maintains that it cannot be charged with violating felony tax laws because a coupon waiver that is supposed to be used to exempt Native American Indians from paying taxes has not been implemented by the state. Because those coupons have not been created and distributed, an appellate court issued an injunction against that section of the law in a different case in western New York, preventing it from being enforced.

The district attorneys in both counties believe that the coupon waivers do not apply to the nation because the tax law does not recognized any Cayuga-owned reservations, allowing them to be charged with felony tax evasion under a different section of the law.

The Cayugas have argued that their reservation was established and recognized by the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua.

Staff writer Nate Robson can be reached at 253-5311 ext. 248 or nathan.robson@lee.net
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/07/09 01:50 PM

More tax money for the county.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/15/09 02:04 PM

coupons?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/09 04:39 PM

Judge: NYC suit against Mastic smoke shops can proceedBY ROBERT E. KESSLER | robert.kessler@newsday.com
March 17, 2009
A federal judge ruled yesterday that New York City can continue a lawsuit seeking nearly $200 million in back cigarette taxes from eight smoke shops on the Poospatuck Indian Reservation in Mastic.

The city claims that by selling huge quantities of untaxed cigarettes in the five boroughs, the smoke shops are a major source of cheap, bootlegged cigarettes.

In her ruling rejecting arguments by the smoke shops, U.S. District Judge Carol Amon in Brooklyn said the shops are not sovereign Indian entities and might be compelled to follow state and city law on the sale of cigarettes. She further said the shops could be sued under federal law because the reservation is not recognized as Indian land.

But Amon's ruling also said that however the overall issue of tribal sovereignty might be decided in the courts, the smoke shops are not integral parts of the tribe. The profits from the smoke shops do not go to the tribe itself, but to the shops' owners, Amon said.



The city sued the eight smoke shops in 2008, claiming that the untaxed cigarettes sold by them deprived the city of $195 million in taxes and the state of $525 million. Indian residents of reservations are permitted to purchase untaxed cigarettes for their own use. In its suit the city said that the eight shops had sold almost 24 million cartons of untaxed cigarettes since 2004, or 19,200 each day for the 300 residents of the 55-acre reservation.

"The $195 million in uncollected cigarette tax revenue we are suing to collect could be used to modernize a public hospital, or hire nearly 3,000 new police officers, firefighters or teachers," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said yesterday. "As we all pull together to do more with less, it's just grossly unfair to hardworking taxpayers to allow any company to shirk their responsibilities."

Leo Barnes, lead defense attorney for the smoke shops and who represents the Smoke and Rolls shop, said yesterday he had not read the suit and could not comment. Dan Nobel, attorney for another shop being sued, the Peace Pipe, also said he could not comment because he had not read the decision.

But Harry Wallace, chief of the Unkechaug Indians who live on the reservation, yesterday called the decision "the first in a long litigious history. Ultimately, our legitimate business entities will prevail."

The next hearing in the city's suit is scheduled for May.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/25/09 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
No replies yet? I even cited a link earlier where one can research all the treaties.

LaughinWillow Are you going to honor their original treaties? No?
LW - you are full of bunk. Cite ANY treaty phrase in ANY treaty with a New York tribe that has been broken except by the tribes themselves!

LaughinWillow I can compile a list, but I feel like this is pretty common knowledge.
LW - You cannot compile one phrase in one treaty and obviously have no common knowledge. Your common knowledge is based on the Big Lie theory.

EVERY act of Congress supersedes a treaty.

EVERY ruling by SCOTUS applies to the whole country and also supersedes treaties.

A treaty being the law of the land is no different than any other law.

Tribes are wards of the federal government. Tribal members are citizens of the U.S. AND the State in which they reside.

The only treaties ever broken in New York were broken by the tribes.

Honor the treaties? Remit the sales and excise taxes. SCOTUS has ruled that such exclusion was not and is not in any treaty. It would not matter if these were reservation lands. These same tax laws apply.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/25/09 03:22 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Uncollected Tax Dollars

January 15, 2008
We thought you would be interested in the following letter that has been sent to the members of the Legislature by Mr. Arthur H. Katz, Executive Director of the NYS Wholesale Marketers and Distributors.

January 10, 2008

Dear Legislative Member:

SHAME

Why do we continue to permit annual sales of 400 million packs of untaxed cigarettes to Indian sellers when it is known that illicit reselling is funding terrorism?

In America, our greatest triumph is adherence to the rule of law. Where laws end, terrorism begins. In 1994, the United States Supreme Court ruled (in Attea v. New York State) that New York was within its right to tax all cigarette sales to non-tribal members. Yet in the twelve years since that ruling the Pataki administration did not attempt to apply the law to a single Native American sale. Therefore, lacking accountability, these untaxed sales have reached an astounding 40 million cartons annually with lost revenue to New York State of $20 million per week or one billion dollars per year.



*It should be noted, since our first letter dated August 6, 2007, New York State has lost an additional $440 million in revenue, why?



Shame:Major illegal profits from these sales are funding terrorism while the New York State treasury is robbed!

The connection between Native American untaxed cigarette distribution and the funding of terrorism is well established and documented by New York and Federal agencies, public officials and numerous criminal court cases. Among some recent examples:

New York City 11/03/2007, Rep. Anthony Weiner and state senator Jeff Klein, in calling for a congressional investigation and putting additional teeth in existing federal laws , issued a press release that documented several recent government cases which uncovered the funding of Hamas, Hezbollah and other terrorist groups. They also quoted public officials who have stated that illegal cigarette profits have become one of the leading sources of domestic terrorist funding. ATF agent Patrick Awe, who testified before the US Senate, stated "... the link to terrorism has been established".



v Cattaraugus Indian Reservation 09/20/2006, Karim H. Nassar from Canada pleads guilty to smuggling $500,000 of cigarettes off the reservation for general market consumption and sending profits to Hezbollah guerillas.



v Dearborn, 05/29/05, nineteen men are federally indicted for a smuggling operation that evaded "tens of millions in state cigarette taxes" by purchasing truck loads of untaxed product from a Western New York State Indian Reservation and reselling in New York and Michigan. The profits were funneled to Hezbollah.



v The New York State Tax Enforcement Group arrested a couple in Brooklyn who were part of a group of 200 terrorists smuggling and reselling into New York City.



v Police commissioner, Ray Kelly in a speech before the United Nations, states that the smuggling of cigarettes is the leading means of funding forterrorist organizations.



v New York Post 10/16/07 State Senator Martin Golden who sits on the Homeland Security Committee, states that "ATF has opened hundreds of illicit cigarette trafficking cases; ... [having] links to extremist groups such as al Qaeda ... He adds that ATF senior intelligence analyst William Billingslea wrote in the Police Chief Magazine that, "Because of the immense profit, illicit cigarette trafficking now rivals drugs as the method of choice to fill the bank accounts of terrorist groups." Golden goes on to say, "The solution is simple. Both federal and state laws are already in place, and the courts have reaffirmed their constitutionality. What we need now is a governor with the guts to enforce them. The result of not enforcing the law has transcended the issue of Native American sovereignty into an issue of national security."

Shame: Why has leadership not acted to enforce the law and protect public safety?

v Newsday 11/06/2007, "Trial of smoke-shop millionaire set to begin". In a criminal case heard before the Eastern District Court, RodneyMorrison a Costa Rican, who is an "Indian" through marriage, has offered to put up $56 million cash for bail. This criminal case involves massive amounts of cigarettes that were sold tax free to and from an Indian reservation.It certainly should not surprise anyone that the purchase of tens of thousands of cartons of cigarettes from just one of these Indian stores is not for personal consumption. The Distributor who supplies the "store" should know that those cartons cannot be consumed legally without taxation. The manufacturers who supply the distributors receive a mandatory report each week that states how many cartons go towhom, and yet continue to allocate and sell this product. These outlets are the major source of counterfeit and untaxed cigarettes sold in high taxed localities (NY) to complicit stores and street merchants.

Shame: Manufacturers who are allocating and their distributors who are selling should have knowledge of the laws requirements.

On April 12, 2005 legislation was passed that required the collection of taxes on all Indian sales of cigarettes, motor fuel and other products to non-Indian New Yorkers starting 3/1/06 (without exception) and was signed into law the next day. It was with both courage and conviction that Sheldon Silver and Joseph Bruno led the legislature to overturn Pataki's ill-advised veto, demonstrating their understanding of the urgency for stopping this outflow. The methodology of tax stamping of all cigarettes and the issuance of "exemption coupons" to tribal members was conceived 12 years ago and favorably ruled upon by the US Supreme Court.





Shame: NYS State government still continues to invent ingeniousexcuses for non-enforcement.



During his final year in office, Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, in various correspondences, made it crystal clear that current law prohibited the shipping of untaxed cigarettes within New York. And further, that manufacturers, truckers, distributors and Indian traders who aided and abetted or criminally facilitated these shipments would be guilty of crimes against the State. Recently, Attorney General Cuomo, under an order from the Federal Eastern District Court, testified that the state's policy of forbearance (i.e. non-enforcement) was not a valid defense for the causing to be sold or the causing to be shipped of untaxed cigarettes for resale to non-tribal members. In another criminal case heard before the Eastern District Court; Judge Hurley ruled that there was knowledge of the illegal use and therefore criminal aiding and abetting.



Shame: As yet, there is no State enforcement and criminals and terrorists continue to grow rich.



The Math:

From 1996 - 2006 there was a recorded twenty percent reduction in the national

cigarettes sales (excluding New York State).

In 1996 New York State Taxes were paid on 127 Million Cartons Sold.

In 2006 New York True Consumption should have fallen to 102 Million Cartons

Actual 2006 New York State Legal cartons sold amounted to only 62 million!

That equals a loss of 40 million cartons sold in 2006!!





Shame:

A $Billion give away of our taxes!



It is patently absurd to argue that Native American sovereignty can only be preserved by allowing them unregulated access to FORTY MILLION cartons of untaxed cigarettes annually. This would amount to a staggering EIGHT BILLION cigarettes smoked per year by 2,500 adult Native American smokers in New York.



Shame: Let us not fall asleep at the switch again! Solution: Tax Stamp all cigarettes!

Summary of some Applicable Laws that may be violated are:

The Jenkins Act; The Contraband Cigarette Trafficking Act 18 U.S.C.Sec.2342; New York Public Health Law1399II; NYS Tax Law, Article 20, Sec. 471E; Criminal Facilitation, Article 115 NYS Penal Law; provisions under The National Security Act.

Why have we suffered 12 years of non compliance and the feeding of terrorists? Why have the cigarette manufactures continued to allocate millions of cartons of cigarettes to Indian sellers knowing exactly what is being shipped to each Indian store? Why has Albany not exercised its duty to protect its citizens by simply upholding the law? Why have these complicit venders been permitted to become the leading source of untaxed cigarettes sold in the 50 states? It certainly cannot be up to Native Americans, manufactures, or recalcitrant Public Officials to dictate the terms of our safety. Our Supreme Court has already spoken. Now our elected officials must act by recognizing that where law dies, terrorism lives.

Shame: The failure of Government and manufacturers to act in these past twelve years is a classic case of politics and greed vs. country!

Sincerely,

Arthur H. Katz

Executive Director

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/27/09 03:11 PM

Paterson it is just that easy.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/30/09 07:58 AM

serious problems associated with illegal cigarettes.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/1232/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/31/09 06:59 AM

Another reason to deny trust land
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/31/09 01:28 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
No replies yet? I even cited a link earlier where one can research all the treaties.

LaughinWillow Are you going to honor their original treaties? No?
LW - you are full of bunk. Cite ANY treaty phrase in ANY treaty with a New York tribe that has been broken except by the tribes themselves!

LaughinWillow I can compile a list, but I feel like this is pretty common knowledge.
LW - You cannot compile one phrase in one treaty and obviously have no common knowledge. Your common knowledge is based on the Big Lie theory.

EVERY act of Congress supersedes a treaty.

EVERY ruling by SCOTUS applies to the whole country and also supersedes treaties.

A treaty being the law of the land is no different than any other law.

Tribes are wards of the federal government. Tribal members are citizens of the U.S. AND the State in which they reside.

The only treaties ever broken in New York were broken by the tribes.

Honor the treaties? Remit the sales and excise taxes. SCOTUS has ruled that such exclusion was not and is not in any treaty. It would not matter if these were reservation lands. These same tax laws apply.


;\)

LaughinWillow lacks substance.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/31/09 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?

.


?????
.
Still waiting?????

Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.

.

.








still looking ???????


.


...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/02/09 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Bruno: $1B owed in tribal taxes


State should prosecute to collect sales and excise fees, Senate majority leader says

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau
First published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008

ALBANY -- Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno on Tuesday called for the state to prosecute American Indian retailers and others for failing to pay some $1 billion in sales and excise taxes.
Speaking at the annual meeting of the New York Association of Counties, and later to reporters, Bruno said Gov. Eliot Spitzer must enforce state law and collect the taxes to help the estimated $4.4 billion budget gap.

"How do you collect taxes? If people don't pay taxes they end up getting prosecuted," Bruno said. "I mean if you don't pay your taxes, if your company doesn't pay ... what'll happen?"

Later, after flanking Bruno during a news conference, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo declined to say who should prosecute tribal enterprises.

"It depends on what the state is doing," Cuomo said. He said he wanted someone to check into Bruno's comments.

Cuomo spokesman John Milgrim later said it would be inappropriate to comment because the attorney general may have to defend the state in a lawsuit.

Assemblyman David Townsend, R-Sylvan Beach, said he will file a suit this week against Spitzer and Tax Commissioner Robert Megna in state Supreme Court in Albany County to get an order requiring tax law enforcement on the Indian enterprises.

An Oneida Nation spokesman declined to comment on the suit or Bruno's comments.

Bruno said he supported a "great resolution" from the association. It directs the Spitzer administration to "take any and all necessary action to insure collection of all sales and excise taxes on tribal and Indian sales of all goods and services to non-tribal members ... without further delay."

Bruno said: "Governor, go get the tax money on behalf of the people of this state. ... There's about $1 billion out there."

Spitzer's legal counsel, Richard Rifkin, told a committee of the association on Monday that the issue is complicated and he wouldn't speculate on how it will be resolved.

The governor put $200 million in his budget plan for this year from Indian tax collections. His budget plan for next year calls for $174 million.

The holdup has been the Department of Taxation and Finance's failure to issue coupons so that tribal members can continue to buy tax-free cigarettes and other products. People who are not tribal members would have to pay the taxes.

Town of Lenox Board Supervisor Rocco DiVeronica, the past chairman of the association's Native American Affairs Committee, said he appreciates Bruno's support but questioned his ties with the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation, Ray Halbritter. Bruno walked one of the Oneidas' professional-level golf courses last year with Halbritter, whose tribe has contributed $430,000 to Senate and Assembly campaign committees since 1999.

"There's a disconnect between state and local government officials," DiVeronica said.

Spitzer told the association his new budget would save counties $519 million. But several county leaders and Association Executive Director Steve Acquario said Spitzer overstated the state's help. They said Spitzer's budget will push $75 million to $80 million onto counties for costs of juvenile detention and welfare.

The governor, Acquario said, was counting Medicaid costs borne by the state since the Pataki administration capped local costs for the government health care program.

Paul W. Miller, Madison County's assistant director of planning, and Oneida County Executive Anthony J. Picente Jr., complained that Spitzer failed to account for sales tax revenues counties aren't getting from Indian businesses, as well as lost property taxes not paid on Oneida-owned acreage.

Spitzer spokesman Errol A. Cockfield Jr. said that if county executives say they have to raise taxes, it will be "because of their own choices, not because of the New York state budget. They are threatening tax increases at a time when the public is feeling squeezed, despite increased state aid that makes doing so unnecessary."

Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.







?
.



Paterson can you use some more money?
time to start collecting the overdue money.



.
Posted by: Freedom One

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/02/09 09:34 AM

Sovereign territory ladies and gents. You watch our Native American brothers and sisters show all of us how to tell obtrusive big government stick it up their...... \:\)

As far as I am persoanlly concerned, ey are a role model for the rest of us. Stand UP and fight! DONT TREAD ON ME!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/02/09 10:55 PM

And who will pay for the military protection...?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/07/09 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?

.


?????
.
Still waiting?????

Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.

.

.








still looking ???????


.


...




Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm...


Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
So.......in regards to the Treaty of Canandaigua, NYS has not broken it.




Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/08/09 07:34 AM

Supreme Court hands down another lose for the tribes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/09/09 06:14 AM

Tobacco profits to go up in smoke?
Updated: 04/09/2009 05:53 AM
By: Britt Godshalk

ALBANY, N.Y. -- "It is just ludicrous," said Jim Calvin, the president of the New York Association of Convenient Stores. "How can the state justify increasing a fee on any small business by 900 percent or 4,900 percent?"

The folks at NYACS have smoke coming out of their ears. The cost to sell cigarettes in New York just went from $100 annually per store, to $1000, $2,500, even $5,000, depending on the store's gross sales of all products.

"Many of them are going to make the calculation that it's not worth it," said Calvin. “And actually the goal of this higher fee."

In a statement, the state Department of Budget said, "This public health initiative will help decrease the availability of tobacco products, which cost the lives of thousands of New Yorkers each year. Additionally, it will provide critical resources to fund health care programs."

Tobacco profits to go up in smoke?
A measure passed in this year's state budget has sparked a hot debate, this time over an increase to the state's fee on cigarette and tobacco retailers. Our Britt Godshalk takes a look.

"To say that if our stores have to stop selling tobacco, there won't be any more tobacco and people won't have access to it, no, that's baloney. They are just going to go to these unregulated outlets that are beyond the reach of New York State Regulation and Taxation," said Calvin.

"Whether it's a guy on the street in NYC, or the Internet, Native Americans, even Vermont," said Christian King, who owns a chain of convenience stores in the Albany area. "We're pushing people towards these alternative sources."

"Those customers who stop coming through the door, not only are they not buying tobacco products any longer, but they aren't buying other products either, a soda, a coffee, a newspaper," said Calvin.

NYACS says many customers who come in to buy cigarettes pick up a lottery ticket on the way out as well, but if they don't come in to buy cigarettes, they won't buy lottery tickets either. The lottery provides dollars for the state education budget, dollars that NYACS says will now go up in smoke.

"Even as little of a one percent drop in lottery sales would translate to a loss of more revenue than this license fee increase would generate," said Calvin. "So the state has done its homework on how this is going to impact the budget as a whole."

The fees will come due in September.
-------------------------


Copyright ©2008 TWEAN News Channel of Syracuse, LLC, d/b/a News 10 Now.
All Rights Reserved.


Paterson are you for REAL?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/23/09 09:22 AM

More money to the county.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/16/09 09:14 AM

Paterson will you step up?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/16/09 09:16 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians , but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/19/09 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Freedom One
Stand UP and fight! DONT TREAD ON ME!


Paterson needs to collect the tribal taxes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re:$1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/29/09 09:22 AM

From today's Finger Lakes Times:
Letter to the editor:

Attend land trust meeting to voice concerns

To the Editor:

The Bureau of Indian Affairs is allowing us the opportunity to voice our concerns and grievances regarding Indian-owned land becoming trust land. There is nothing we will do on that date that will have a greater impact on our lives and the lives of our children and grandchildren. Make a special effort to be there or prepare for the consequences.

The place: New York
Chiropractic College
The date: Wednesday, June 17
The time: 6 p.m.

Unless we voice our dissension, we can be assured that the BIA will yield to the Indian’s demands by robbing the many in order to appease the few. Nothing beneficial can come from it. The land can be used for any purpose they choose — junk yards, garbage dumps, trash heaps. Then there are the casinos and brothels, the other kind of trash heaps. Impacts to our wetlands, disposal of hazardous materials and loss of tax revenue are other concerns. Once it becomes trust land it will be the Indians’ domain and will be exempt from local, county and state laws and regulations, including zoning. What equality?
There is no guarantee that our voices will sway the outcome, but if we remain silent and stoic, I believe it’s a “done deal.”

ELEANORE F. CASEY
Ovid


Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re:$1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/29/09 01:59 PM

Keep talking to yourself numb-nuts, maybe someday it'll sink in.
Posted by: bluezone

Re:$1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/30/09 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
Keep talking to yourself numb-nuts, maybe someday it'll sink in.


Did you give your land back yet?

\:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/30/09 12:02 PM

Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
One last thing please don't reply because I'm done with this thread,



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/30/09 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot



My stats come from the US Census, BIA, NIGC, SBA and Dept. of Labor. Of course their stats are never "current". But from 1989 to 2003 percentage of household income increase for whites was 5%, Asian 6%, Hispanic 7%, Black 17%, and American Indian 32%. From 2000 to 2004 the American Indian population increased 23% from 2.2 to 2.7 million; federal spending on Indian programs increased 58% from $3.6 billion to $5.7 billion ; and tribal revenue from gambling increased 207% from $6.3 billion to $19.4 billion. American Indians moved from 4th to 3rd out of the five ethnic distinctions, ahead of Hispanic and Black.

Lets see - 19.4 billion in just gambling added to $5.7 billion in tax funded freebies = $25.1 billion for 2.7 million American Indians, or $929 million per Indian each YEAR . Even just using the $5.7 billion in taxes comes to $211 Million per Indian per year. This leads me to believe that your statement of the rich getting richer may be true, but your adding "not Native Americans" is false.




Harley how about you send me a yearly check for $929 million?

Or is it in the mail






Harley - where is my check?
Posted by: Santa_Cruzer

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/30/09 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Freedom One
Stand UP and fight! DONT TREAD ON ME!


Paterson needs to collect the tribal taxes.




Ain't happening anytime soon.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/09 04:11 PM

Do you expect Paterson to run for the same position?
Impeach........

Posted by: Santa_Cruzer

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/09 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Do you expect Paterson to run for the same position?
Impeach........




Doubtful he makes a run. Think impeachment is off the table though considering the current political climate.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/09 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson needs to collect the tribal taxes.

Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer

Ain't happening anytime soon.


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Do you expect Paterson to run for the same position?
Impeach........

Originally Posted By: Santa_cruzer
Doubtful he makes a run. Think impeachment is off the table though considering the current political climate.


Then how can you predict that the next Governor will not collect the tribal taxes?

(ps-the taxes are being collected by the tax paying business after the indian store was raided)



Posted by: Santa_Cruzer

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/09 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson needs to collect the tribal taxes.

Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer

Ain't happening anytime soon.


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Do you expect Paterson to run for the same position?
Impeach........

Originally Posted By: Santa_cruzer
Doubtful he makes a run. Think impeachment is off the table though considering the current political climate.


Then how can you predict that the next Governor will not collect the tribal taxes?

(ps-the taxes are being collected by the tax paying business after the indian store was raided)





Think he'll maintain a hands off approach. We'll see.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/09 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Think he'll maintain a hands off approach. We'll see.


What about she?
Posted by: Santa_Cruzer

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/09 05:08 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Think he'll maintain a hands off approach. We'll see.


What about she?


Tad presumptuous ain't we? First things first.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/01/09 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Think he'll maintain a hands off approach. We'll see.


What about she?

Tad presumptuous ain't we? First things first.

Sounds like you are.

Posted by: Santa_Cruzer

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/01/09 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Santa_Cruzer
Originally Posted By: bluezone
[quote=Santa_Cruzer]Think he'll maintain a hands off approach. We'll see.


What about she?

Tad presumptuous ain't we? First things first.

Sounds like you are.

[/quot


My Bad. Who is the 'she'?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/02/09 08:47 AM

Who is the he?
Posted by: HarleyBobT

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/02/09 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Who is the he?

His mother...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 06/05/09 10:46 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Daily Policy Digest

State & Local Issues / State & Local taxes

Tuesday, January 13, 2004

Once a gambling enriched-tribe acquires land, the new "reservation" becomes a sovereign nation, exempt from all local and state laws, zoning ordinances, labor rules, environmental reviews, and American rules of due process and fair play in law enforcement, says Jan Golab. In addition, the "reservation" and business built on it, including a casino, has complete tax exemption. This policy erodes the local tax base and reduces government revenues.

Because of the numbers of casinos established in California, this poses a serious problem for the state's struggling economy:


In 2002, revenues from newly built casinos in California soared to $5 billion per year -- but the casinos paid virtually nothing to the state.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Indians must collect sales tax from customers who are not Indians, but nearly all tribal businesses ignore this rule, resulting in the undercutting of competing non-Indian businesses.
Although they pay little in taxes, gaming tribes seek to influence the political process -- spending over $120 million to push their candidates and ballot initiatives in recent years. That is more than George W. Bush spent nationwide to be elected President.

The impact is just as grave in other states, says Golab:


In Oklahoma, $580 million in annual sales and property taxes are lost to Indians in the state.




New York lost $895 million in 2002 by failing to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Indians.




Because of the erosion of state and local tax base, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken on the Indian gaming industry in California and is asking that they contribute 25 percent of their earnings to the state, or approximately $1 billion.

Source: Jan Golab, "Arnold Schwarzenegger Girds For Indian War," American Enterprise, January/February 2004, American Enterprise Institute.

For more on American Enterprise
http://www.taemag.com

For more on State & Local taxes
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/sta/

___________________________________




Do we want to have higher budget problems like California?


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/10/09 07:30 AM

Is Paterson still in office?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/12/09 07:36 AM

Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
Updated: 06/12/2009 06:04 AM
By: Bill Carey

AUBURN, N.Y. -- The message from a host of Cayuga County officials was a simple one. If the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs agrees to allow the Cayuga Indians to place land into federal trust, tax losses for local schools and governments will be substantial and local businesses competing with Indian enterprises will be hurt.

“This is any business. Towing businesses. This is garages. Anything that can operate tax free on land in trust land can certainly affect the businesses here,” said Cayuga County legislator David Axton.

And the officials say they have numbers to back up their claims. Just last year, Cayuga and Seneca County authorities shut down cigarette sales by two service stations operated by the Cayuga Nation, claiming they were evading tax laws. The county has surveyed other convenience stores in the area and says most have seen increases in cigarette sales of 20 to 40 percent since that shutdown. They estimate they may have been losing millions in tax revenues prior to the action.

Cayuga and Seneca counties were the first to take action to disrupt cigarette sales by an Indian nation. They were hoping the message would be clear in Albany.

Governor Paterson has already signed legislation calling for collection of taxes on Indian cigarette sales and, in Cayuga County, they say a state facing billions in red ink should look at the potential windfall.

Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
The long running dispute over land claims by the Cayuga Indians and the insistence of Cayuga and Seneca counties on their rights to tax revenues is about to heat up again. At issue, the Cayugas move to have the federal government allow 130 acres of land to be put into federal trust, exempting it from local taxes. Our Bill Carey says the campaign to block the move is underway.

“You're talking $30 million from two little convenience stores . You multiply that, times the Smoking Joes, 110 of those, the Sav-Ons in Oneida, the Long Island, all the millions of cigarettes they're selling down there, it's about a billion dollars in taxes a year that the state's missing out on ,” said Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann.

Some counties have opened negotiations with various Indian groups hoping to settle land claims and tax issues. Cayuga County hasn't taken that route.

“We have no discussions going on in the legislature about any kind of settlement,” said Cayuga County Legislature Chairman Peter Tortorici.

The case against sovereignty and against placement of land into trust, they say, is clear.

The hearing by the Bureau of Indian Affairs is due on June 17th in Seneca Falls.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/09 06:09 PM

When the Oneidas are denied trust so will the Cayugas.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/01/09 02:34 PM

Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Have we forgot?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/02/09 05:10 AM

Police break up New York-Ohio pot smuggling ring

by The Post-Standard Wednesday July 01, 2009, 9:57 PM

MALONE, N.Y. (AP) -- Authorities say they've broken up a drug ring linked to Russian organized crime that smuggled as much as $27 million worth of marijuana through New York's St. Regis Mohawk Reservation to the Cleveland area over the past three years.

Five of those arrested are from New York and three from Ohio. They all face felony drug charges.

Franklin County District Attorney Derek Champagne (SHAM'-payn) says investigators seized $1.3 million in cash and 14 vehicles during raids in St. Lawrence and Franklin counties along the Canadian border in New York and in Beachwood, Ohio. Investigators also recovered a pound of cocaine.

The investigation is continuing and Champagne says Wednesday more state and federal charges will be filed against the suspects
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/07/09 07:22 AM

Paterson go after the source.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/11/09 02:20 AM

NY states inaction.
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/11/09 03:54 AM

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/11/09 07:07 AM

Is your land on the Cayuga or any other tribes "reservation"?

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~springport/pictures172/17227small.jpg

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/24/09 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie



If the state budget gets worse your job may be in jeopardy.
Posted by: madnesscentral

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/24/09 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Is your land on the Cayuga or any other tribes "reservation"?

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~springport/pictures172/17227small.jpg


My land is for sale and I wish they would buy it and build a Casino.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/26/09 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: madnesscentral

My land is for sale and I wish they would buy it and build a Casino.


Just give back as they claim it is theirs.
Posted by: madnesscentral

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/26/09 12:36 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: madnesscentral

My land is for sale and I wish they would buy it and build a Casino.


Just give back as they claim it is theirs.

Its outside the claim area.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/09 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: madnesscentral
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: madnesscentral

My land is for sale and I wish they would buy it and build a Casino.


Just give back as they claim it is theirs.

Its outside the claim area.


Not by the court ruling. Any land that the tribe wandered on is a reservation.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/09 02:52 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
"This has been a problem for 30-years and what we think we're going to do is look at our department of taxation in terms of creating a way in which those who do business with those entities will not get, in other words, cooperation from New York state. Because it's killing our small businesses ," Governor Paterson said.





Step up Paterson....................


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/08/09 12:14 PM

Can Patersons approval rating drop any farther?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/15/09 06:54 PM

Paterson approval ratings in the single digits.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/21/09 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: madnesscentral
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: madnesscentral

My land is for sale and I wish they would buy it and build a Casino.


Just give back as they claim it is theirs.

Its outside the claim area.



Just give it back
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/24/09 07:44 AM

Non-collection of Indian tobacco taxes will spark Senate hearingsAugust 20, 2009 at 6:06 pm by Rick Karlin
In the latest example of how not even Democrats are cozying up to Gov. David Paterson these days, Craig Johnson, the Long Island Democrat who heads the Senate Investigations Committe, wants hearings on the lack of tax collections.

This comes in the wake of a story earlier this week in the Buffalo News noting that Paterson has quietly written off the estimated $65 million it could have gotten by taxing Native American cigarette sales.

Republican Sen. Joe Griffo of the Utica area also decried the lack of tax collection in a recent release.

Here’s Johnson’s statement on the upcoming hearings, followed by Griffo’s release.

Senator Craig M. Johnson, chairman of the Senate Standing Committee on Investigations and Government Operations, announced today plans to hold a hearing on the state’s long-unsuccessful attempts to collect taxes from cigarettes sold to Non-Native Americans on Indian reservations.

This move was prompted by news that the Paterson Administration has quietly written off collecting this revenue — a move that is in direct violation of a law that the governor himself signed last year. The failure to collect this revenue is costing the state $65 million this year, according to the state Office of the Budget.

Non-collection of this tax revenue from Native American retailers has long been an issue in New York that has confounded several administrations. Senator Johnson, however, contends that the current economic crisis, and budget deficit, make a resolution vital.

“We literally can’t afford to look the other way, nor should the state Department of Taxation and Finance ignore a law that is barely a year old,” Senator Johnson, (D-Nassau,) said. “This Committee wants to be helpful in finding a solution, but the public also deserves to know where things stand between the state and Native American retailers and why there has yet to be an agreement.”

Other states – most recently Florida – have been able to reach tax collection agreements with their local Indian nations on this issue.

Senator Johnson was joined in this call for a hearing by fellow committee members Deputy Majority Leader Jeff Klein, (D-Bronx/ Westchester,) and Senator T. William Stachowski, (D-Lake View.) Both senators sponsor legislation that would stem the sale of tax-free cigarettes and further strengthen enforcement of current laws.

“Our state has already lost hundreds of millions of dollars by not cracking down on Native American cigarette retailers. It’s time to stop losing money and start collecting it,” said Deputy Majority Leader Klein. “I believe a public hearing is the next logical step and the best way to find a solution to this problem.”

“I absolutely agree with calling for a public hearing on the issue of collecting state taxes on sales made on native territories,” Senator Stachowski said. “Governor Paterson has repeated time and time again that we are faced with a financial deficit of record proportions. The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the collection of taxes is legal on Indian lands, so why would we not pursue this?”

The hearing will take place in Albany this Fall. It will be set pending scheduling and the date of the Governor’s expected special session.

And Griffo:

Senator Joseph A. Griffo (R,C, I- Rome) today condemned the Executive’s action to end efforts to collect sales taxes on cigarette sales to non-Indians at Indian-owned businesses.

“This is wrong on multiple levels,” Griffo said. “First and foremost, the tax should be collected. The law of this state says sales of tobacco products to non-Indians should be subject to sales tax. “I don’t know how the Administration can pick and choose which laws they want enforced. Existing law is intended to be abided by, not to be negotiated. I can’t imagine what would happen to employers that went 14 years without obeying the law. We can’t just ignore the law. If the Administration thinks the law is wrong, the redress open to him is to go through the political process to enact a new law, not to simply give up on making the law work.”

Griffo also noted disappointment with the Governor’s inconsistency. “Last year, the governor signed a bill to collect the taxes. This year, he says he will not work to collect the taxes. This is another example of the inconsistent leadership that has governed by stops and starts. How can we move this state forward when in instance after instance, we keep flopping back and forth or going in circles?”

Griffo said the tax is not a Native American issue. “The rise of the Oneida Indian Nation from poverty to prosperity is a great chapter in their history and the history of our region. The real issue in this case is the fiscal impact local residents face from the loss of tax revenue in cigarette sales purchased by non-Indians. ”

Griffo noted that according to some estimates, New York fails to collect $400 million a year in sales taxes on cigarette sales to non-Indians at Indian-owned businesses. “What this can mean to the state, and also to the local communities in Oneida County that should have been sharing in this money for 14 years, is very important given our current fiscal crisis,” Griffo said. “This is also a very important issue for the small convenience stores located near Indian-owned businesses. There should be a level playing field for them in which to compete.”
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/26/09 03:01 AM

Gotta love the Native Americans.....They can find a way around ANYTHING!!! Not only will I get TAX-FREE gambling, Smokes, and gas....NOW come Labor Day I can get TAX FREE BOOZE too!!! Wooooooo HOOOOOOO!!! Booze and Gambling....doesn't get much better than that!!!


Turning Stone to serve alcohol in restaurants
by Glenn Coin / The Post-Standard
Tuesday August 25, 2009, 2:54 PM

Diners at Turning Stone Resort and Casino's fine-dining restaurants will soon be able to buy drinks with dinner. The resort general manager, Peter Carmen, announced today that five of the resort's restaurants will become private clubs -- but becoming a member will be "as seamless as possible."

The announcement marks the resort's most sweeping effort yet to serve alcohol to a wide spectrum of guests. The state Liquor Authority has repeatedly refused to grant liquor licenses to the Oneida Indian Nation, which runs Turning Stone, but the resort has been able to serve alcohol at conventions, banquets and weddings by using outside caterers.

Starting on Labor Day, guests can pay $25 for a lifetime membership to the restaurants and three lounges, where they will be able to order drinks. All hotel guests will automatically receive a lifetime membership, as will resort guests who spend enough money in the showroom, spa and golf courses.

The nation will contract with Beeches Restaurant of Rome, which caters hundreds of events at the resort each year, to serve drinks at five Turning Stone restaurants: Pino Bianco, Wildflowers, Rodizio, Peach Blossom and Forest Grill. Alcohol will also be served at two lounges and the resort's sports bar.

Carmen said Turning Stone's ability to compete with other resorts is limited by the current alcohol policy.

"There is only so far we can go with this destination when we are unable to offer the amenities that other destinations offer," Carmen said. "This is Turning Stone's way of trying to improve the situation that in a way that is respectful of what this community and the state Liquor Authority feel comfortable with."

A liquor authority spokesman, Bill Crowley, said he was not familiar with the new Turning Stone program but would research the issue.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/27/09 06:15 AM

Judge Delivers Blow To NY Reservation Smoke Shops
Source: Finger Lakes News Radio


NEW YORK (AP) - A federal judge has issued a ruling that could doom an Indian reservation's booming business in tax-free cigarettes and spell trouble for other native American tobacco dealers in the state.

In a decision announced Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Carol Bagley Amon in Brooklyn barred a group of smoke shops on Long Island's Poospatuck reservation from selling tax-free cigarettes to the general public, saying their location on tribal lands didn't exempt them from state and federal tax law.

Only members of the Unkechaug tribe, which controls the reservation, have a right to buy cigarettes there without paying taxes, she ruled, not the many non-Indian customers who flock to the shops for cheap smokes.

If upheld, the injunction would eliminate much of the business at the stores, which sell millions of cartons of cigarettes a year and are among the biggest suppliers in the state.

The judge stayed the ruling for 30 days to give the shops time to appeal, and Unkechaug Chief Harry Wallace quickly promised that the tribe wouldn't let the decision stand unchallenged.

"It's improper," he said of the ruling.

He accused the judge of ignoring state law and policy regarding taxes and Indian reservations because she dislikes cigarettes.

"She wanted to stop sales at any cost," he said, adding that the ruling would be difficult to comply with, while robbing the stores of their competitive edge. "It would put every Indian store ... out of business."

The ruling is a victory for the city and its mayor, Michael Bloomberg, who sued the stores over their sale of tax-free cigarettes, saying they were illegal.

In its suit, the city claimed the reservation shops had made a mockery of rules restricting the sale of tax-free cigarettes to members of the tribe.

Each resident of the 55-acre reservation, near the town of Mastic, would need to consume 19,200 cigarettes a day to account for the tons of tobacco sold by the shops, the city said.

City lawyers estimated that smoke shops cost the city and state a combined $840 million in tax revenue, much of it lost to smugglers who traveled to the reservation to stock up on cigarettes, then resold them in the city.

"The city will go after every dollar that is owed to city taxpayers," Bloomberg said in a statement announcing the court decision.

Smoke shops located on state-recognized Indian reservations have enjoyed a huge business in cigarettes since the mid-1990s, in part thanks to a string of governors who have refused to enforce state laws that were supposed to set up a system for taxing sales to the general public.

State courts have repeatedly split on whether that policy, known as forbearance, absolves the reservation shops of any responsibility of collecting taxes.

As recently as July, a midlevel state appeals court ruled that smoke shops on land claimed by the Cayuga Indian Nation could not be prosecuted under state law for failing to collect taxes on cigarette sales.

Federal judges, however, have taken a harder line. One Poospatuck smoke shop
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/27/09 06:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie


$10 parking fee and now you will have to pay higher cig prices................ ;\)


Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/28/09 05:05 AM

Actually no parking fee..... I didn't get a handicap sticker.... I decided I don't want the disease to define me or hinder me.

As far a more expensive smokes.... that ruling was for downstate and they have time to appeal and waste more of the State's money for lawyers etc... that they will NEVER get reimbursed for LOL
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/28/09 05:13 AM

Also even if they raise their prices.... there is always Mail Order that remains CHEAP and tax-free! Also even if they hand out the "coupons" the Native American will find a way around it or start selling them out of the trunk of their cars LOL Just like they did will serving booze at Turning Stone! LOL

People can sit on their lazy butts all day and mooch off the system while I pay their bills for them.... The tax-free gas and smokes I see as my own "public assistance" considering after payroll taxes (that goes to WELFARE)I don't have much $$ left over thanks to the welfare rats
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/05/09 01:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie
... that they will NEVER get reimbursed for LOL



Never???
How long before Paterson is out of office? ;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/05/09 01:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie
Also even if they hand out the "coupons" the Native American will find a way around it or start selling them out of the trunk of their cars LOL Just like they did will serving booze at Turning Stone! LOL


So it was never about being sovereign but about high profits ;\)

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie

People can sit on their lazy butts all day and mooch off the system while I pay their bills for them.... The tax-free gas and smokes I see as my own "public assistance" considering after payroll taxes (that goes to WELFARE)I don't have much $$ left over thanks to the welfare rats


welfare rats?
And what do you call someone that collects "welfare" and sells millions of illegal cigs and runs illegal casinos?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/11/09 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Have we forgot?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/11/09 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?

.


?????
.
Still waiting?????

Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.

.

.








still looking ???????


.


...




Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm...


Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
So.......in regards to the Treaty of Canandaigua, NYS has not broken it.




Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/30/09 05:51 AM

Judge rules for Oneida Indian Nation in trust case
By Glenn Coin / The Post-Standard
September 29, 2009, 2:09PM

A federal judge has ruled in favor of the Oneida Indian Nation in three related lawsuits over the nation’s request for trust land.

Judge Lawrence Kahn tossed out several key arguments made by the state, Madison and Oneida counties, the towns of Vernon and Verona, and the city of Oneida in challenging the trust land. In the decisions, Kahn ruled that:

-- The federal government has the authority to take land into trust in New York.

-- The ancient Oneida reservation still exists, and therefore Turning Stone casino is operating legally under federal law

-- The transfer of 18 acres of land in Verona from the Air Force to the Department of Interior as trust land for the Oneidas was legal.



WOOO HOOOOOOOO!!! CONGRATS on ANOTHER win!!! How much more time, money, and resources is gonna be spent by NYS only to LOSE!!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/30/09 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie

WOOO HOOOOOOOO!!! CONGRATS on ANOTHER win!!! How much more time, money, and resources is gonna be spent by NYS only to LOSE!!!


Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city

Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.




Are you saying that if the judge ruled against the tribe that the tribe would comply by paying their taxes and closing their operations?
The SCOTUS has already ruled against the tribe but they refuse to comply


Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/30/09 09:58 AM

Did you notice that your article is from 2005 and My article is from YESTERDAY 9/29/09



Judge rules for Oneida Indian Nation in trust case
By Glenn Coin / The Post-Standard
September 29, 2009, 2:09PM

A federal judge has ruled in favor of the Oneida Indian Nation in three related lawsuits over the nation’s request for trust land.

Judge Lawrence Kahn tossed out several key arguments made by the state, Madison and Oneida counties, the towns of Vernon and Verona, and the city of Oneida in challenging the trust land. In the decisions, Kahn ruled that:

-- The federal government has the authority to take land into trust in New York.

-- The ancient Oneida reservation still exists, and therefore Turning Stone casino is operating legally under federal law

-- The transfer of 18 acres of land in Verona from the Air Force to the Department of Interior as trust land for the Oneidas was legal.



Bluezones atricle from 2005 said:

"the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County."

I have never heard of the town of Sherrill and have never been there and could car less about the non-tax free t-shirts and gas!! I will just go to Turning Stone which has all the tax free cigarettes, tax free gas, and tax free t-shirts I could ever ask for LOLOLOLOL
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/01/09 07:24 AM

SCOTUS ruling - if you even know what that means
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/03/09 01:59 AM

Seneca, Cayuga Counties Can Appeal Cig Tax Ruling to Court of Appeals
Source: Finger Lakes News Radio


Cayuga and Seneca Counties can continue their appeal to block tax free sales of cigarettes by the Cayuga Indian Nation. The state Appellate Court gave the okay to the counties to take their case to the Court of Appeals, the highest court in the state. A request by the counties to block the sales at the Cayugas' Lake Side Trading Stores while the case is pending was denied.
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/03/09 04:52 AM

bluzone said:
A request by the counties to block the sales at the Cayugas' Lake Side Trading Stores while the case is pending was denied.


TThat's great news! That means the Cayugas can sell their smokes for years to come until a decision is made LOLOL
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/04/09 08:49 AM

Senate smoke tax hearing Oct. 27
Hearing will be shown live online

by DAVID L. SHAW/dshaw@fltimes.com
Sunday, October 4, 2009 12:11 AM CDT


WATERLOO — A delegation from Seneca County will testify at an Oct. 27 hearing on the state’s refusal to collect sales tax from cigarettes sold by Indian-run stores to non-Indians.

The four-hour hearing will be conducted by the state Senate’s Standing Committee on Invest­igations & Government Operations. It’s scheduled for 10:30 a.m. Oct. 27 at Manhattan Community College, 199 Chambers St., New York City.

The hearing will be run by state Sen. Craig M. Johnson, D-7, of Nassau. Johnson’s office said the Seneca County officials were invited to testify.

Those not invited can fill out a form and ask to testify if there is time. Written testimony will also be accepted.

“We definitely plan to go. It’s an important issue,” said David Dresser, D-Ovid, chairman of the Seneca County Board of Supervisors Indian Affairs Committee. “We’ll start to plan our testimony so we can make all of our points in the time allowed.”

He said he will also encourage Cayuga County officials to get involved.

Representatives of the Cayuga and Oneida Indian nations are also expected to testify.

Seneca and Cayuga counties are involved in litigation over the cigarette tax issue.

The two counties coordinated a raid and seizure of untaxed cigarettes Nov. 25 at the Cayuga Indian Nation’s convenience stores in Seneca Falls and Union Springs.

A State Supreme Court Judge upheld the raid and seizure. But the Cayugas appealed to the Fourth Department Appellate Division Court, which overturned the lower court’s ruling.

The two counties are now seeking the appellate court’s permission to appeal the matter to the state Court of Appeals. A decision on that request may be issued today.

“The failure to secure this badly needed revenue continues as other states, most recently Florida, have been able to reach tax collection agreements with their local Native American nations,” Johnson said in a statement issued Thursday. “This committee wants to be helpful in crafting a solution to this problem, but first we and the public need to be apprised of where the state and nations stand.”

The issue is of importance in New York City, which has gone to court to challenge the sale of untaxed cigarettes from the Poospatuck Tribe reservation on Long Island.

According to the state Office of the Budget, the failure to collect the sales tax on cigarettes sold by tribes this year is costing the state $65 million in revenue.

The courts affirmed the state’s right to collect taxes on cigarettes sold by Native Americans to non-Native Americans at licensed smoke shops and over the Internet.

But the state Department of Taxation and Finance has not taken steps to collect the tax, including the issuance of coupons to Indians.

Last year, the governor signed a law requiring the taxes to be collected, but that still has not been done.

Johnson said there is also concern that the current situation has made it easier for criminal activities, such as bootlegging and the sale of counterfeit cigarettes, to flourish.

Recently, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of New York pursued suspected cigarette smugglers associated with the Poospatuck Tribe. This network’s alleged ringleader, Rodney Morrison, is facing criminal charges in federal court.

The hearing will be streamed live on the Senate Web site at http://www.nysenate.gov.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/11/09 07:29 AM

Send Paterson to the hearing.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/09 10:56 AM

Paterson to make some cuts.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/24/09 03:43 PM

Paterson just rename the cig taxes to "smoking surcharge"
Show me a treaty that says the tribe does not have to pay a "surcharge" ;\)


same with the gas tax to "gas surcharge"
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/28/09 08:53 AM

NEW YORK (AP) - State Police have speculated that any government effort to block the flow of tax-free cigarettes onto New York's Indian reservations will lead to violence and could possibly escalate into a "military problem," an adviser to Gov. David Paterson said Tuesday.

The governor's chief legal counsel, Peter Kiernan, told a state senate committee that a police "threat assessment" predicted that tribes based in western New York would fiercely resist any attempt to interfere with their multimillion dollar cigarette business.

The cost of enforcing order, he said, could run as much as $2 million per day - a figure based on the state's experiences when it tried to impose cigarette taxes on the reservations in 1992 and 1997.

Both of those efforts ended after members of the Seneca tribe blockaded state highways, set fires and in some cases brawled with troopers.

Questioned by skeptical lawmakers, Kiernan declined to reveal how the State Police came to the conclusion that there might be bloodshed, other than to say it was based on law enforcement "intelligence."

Scores of Indians from across the state who traveled to the city to attend Tuesday's hearing by the senate's committee on investigations and government operations listened largely impassively as Kiernan discussed the potential for violence, although a few seemed offended at the suggestion that they would be the instigators of any conflict.

Still, J.C. Seneca, tribal councilor to the Seneca Nation, made it clear that the tribe takes its sovereignty seriously.

"Your government has no authority to collect taxes in our territory," he said, citing 19th Century peace treaties that, among other things, gave the Seneca control over land and freed them from any state taxes.

"We will fight to uphold these rights, now and forever," he said.

A small group of Seneca expressed their defiance Tuesday by lighting a fire near the state Thruway on the Cattaraugus reservation - an action that mirrored protest fires set in 1997. State Police Capt. Michael Nigrelli said traffic wasn't disrupted, and Seneca leaders assured state police the demonstration would remain peaceful.

New York already has a law on the books assessing taxes on cigarette sales to all consumers who are not members of a tribe, but a series of governors has declined to enforce it, in part because of the fear of unrest.

As a result, reservation shops have become some of the biggest cigarette suppliers in the state, selling hundreds of millions of packs a year.

Some of that product is bought by smugglers, who transport cartons of cigarettes off the reservations and resell them elsewhere. A sizable percentage also is sold over the Internet to buyers around the country.

Paterson has pursued a dual track with the tribes, attempting to negotiate while also litigating the tax issue in state courts. Tribes in other states have signed revenue-sharing compacts with the states regarding taxation on cigarettes, but most of the largest New York tribes have rejected any such compromise.

State Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican and a member of the committee on investigations and government operations, said during Tuesday's hearing that the time for negotiating is over. He said he favors a "drop dead" date, to start charging the tax whether the tribes agreed to it or not.

Wagging his finger at Indians in the audience, he said the U.S. victory over the British during the Revolutionary War gave the government the right to tax its citizens, and he suggested that the tribes benefited from state health, education and public works programs and should therefore be required to pay the same taxes.


"Is it too much to ask?" he said.

His comments were met with boos, and he was jeered again as he left the room.

Among members of the tribe, the issue is a simple continuation of a pattern that dates back centuries.

Arthur "Sugar" Montour, owner of the Seneca brand cigarette company, stood up before the start of the hearing, called himself a warrior and thundered that it was the state - not the tribes - that were the aggressors.

"Today is about taking away the birthright of our people," he said.

"It's just taking our land all over again," Sally Snow, chairwoman of the Seneca Free Trade Association, said during a break in the hearing. "How much do they want from us?"

Kiernan said the governor is ready to enforce state tax law, but hopes to avoid conflict through negotiation.
Posted by: queenbee

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/28/09 06:50 PM

The Governor is afraid of them, WTH. We fight wars everday some that we have no business in and the dang Governor is hiding like a whooped puppy from tribes. This just has to be the dumbest thing I ever read. Something that will benefit NYS and we have a governor without the kojone's to do it. He should be hiding in the closet along with anyone else who feels this way. Just unfriggenbelievable!! He should give up his position he doesn't have the stomach to for it. RESIGN U CRYBABY!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/09 09:33 AM

Let the lieutenant governor handle if paterson is not able to.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/09 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

The cost of enforcing order, he said, could run as much as $2 million per day - a figure based on the state's experiences when it tried to impose cigarette taxes on the reservations in 1992 and 1997.



So if they spend $2 million per day and it only takes a week or so then NYS would still be collecting more than they are losing considering all the money lost in the past years and any future taxes.

Enforce the laws as NY'ers are getting tired of paterson crying we have a deficit.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/06/09 08:59 AM

Paterson is now on his own commercials.
Too much free time for a governor?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/10/09 06:46 AM

Paterson to save NY \:D \:D \:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/10/09 06:49 AM

OHAWK NATION OF AKWESASNE -- The NYPD has gone on the reservation -- sending its drug czar upstate to try to help cut off a massive pipeline of pot and ecstasy to the city run by Mohawk Indian smugglers on the Canadian border.

"I was astounded at how lenient the border is," said Chief Joseph Resnick, head of the NYPD's narcotics division.

He spoke after a trip six weeks ago to the Akwesasne reservation, which straddles the US-Canadian border and which he said supplies most of the high-potency marijuana and ecstasy sold on city streets.

The feds say that in the last 10 years, more than $1 billion worth of marijuana has come through the reservation, which stretches five miles along the banks of the St. Lawrence River.

Smugglers traverse the fast-moving water in Jet Skis and high-powered speedboats. When the river freezes, they switch to snowmobiles.

The contraband is then packed into vans or trucks and driven down the New York State Thruway, authorities said.

The crossing, featured in last year's Oscar-nominated movie "Frozen River," is also a major route for illegal immigrants as well as huge quantities of untaxed liquor and cigarettes, investigators said.

New York Post ^ | Nov 8, 2009 | Brad Hamilton
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/09 07:12 AM

Turning Stone sued for alcohol sales.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/09 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Have we forgot?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/21/09 10:15 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie



If the state budget gets worse your job may be in jeopardy.



Paterson warns of possible job cuts, layoffs
Joseph Spector • and Cara Matthews • November 21, 2009

ALBANY — With New York facing a cash crunch, Gov. David Paterson warned Friday that he may have to take steps other states have taken — such as layoffs, furloughs or shutting down prekindergarten programs — if lawmakers don't make budget cuts this month.


The state could run out of money in late December if cuts aren't made, he and other officials said. That means the state would have to borrow and possibly delay payments to local governments.

Paterson said if all the state's money was pooled together next month and all bills paid, the state would have about $30 million in the bank — a paltry amount considering the total budget is $132 billion.

Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli warned Friday that the state faces a $1.4 billion cash deficit next month.


Meanwhile, a report from Moody's Investors Service said the state could lose its stable credit rating "if there is no action taken by the state to close the gap, or if action is taken but is largely one-time in nature."

Paterson is at odds with lawmakers over cutting aid to schools and health care to help close a $3.2 billion mid-year budget shortfall. After four days of failed negotiations, lawmakers went home Thursday and plan to return Monday.

But Paterson continued his tough talk Friday. He said spending reductions now would help lower next year's deficit, which he estimated could reach $9 billion.

Paterson said he spoke to legislative leaders Friday to advise them of the dire predictions. But lawmakers have so far offered no cuts to schools and only about $100 million in cuts to health care. Paterson has proposed cutting about $1.3 billion.

"I think this is a lot more serious than the interest of some of the legislators who would rather go home and be heroes saying, 'Look, I didn't cut school aid' or 'Look, I didn't cut health care,'" Paterson said.

Senate Minority Leader Dean Skelos, R-Nassau County, criticized the governor for not submitting a bill lawmakers can act on.


"The governor should stop pounding the table, do his job and stop worrying about his poll numbers so that we can get a final agreement," Skelos said in a statement.

Paterson said lawmakers can vote on his plan anytime they want.


Senate Democrats and Republicans said this week they agreed on how to close about $2.6 billion of the shortfall. They think New York should avoid school cuts by using $391 million in federal stimulus money for education that was supposed to be used in the next fiscal year, which begins April 1.

Paterson has said he would not accept a budget that doesn't reduce education spending.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/23/09 03:05 PM

Paterson - did you print them coupons yet?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/24/09 08:40 AM

impeach paterson as he has refused to collect the billions of lost tax revenue from the tribes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/30/09 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson warns of possible job cuts, layoffs


He should be the first in line.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/08/09 02:03 PM

$1.4 and the tribes will spend it and ask for more
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/09 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Paterson - need some revenue?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/11/09 02:32 PM

Dec 10, 3:12 PM EST

Indian reservation cigarettes under fire in NY

By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer
Battle against smoking drags on, years after tobacco settlement

NEW YORK (AP) -- The City of New York has accused several cigarette dealers on a Long Island Indian reservation of secretly defying a court order that was supposed to have shut them down.

The charge is the latest in a legal battle between New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and smoke shops on the Poospatuck Indian Reservation over the sale of millions of dollars in untaxed cigarettes.

In August, a federal judge ordered most of the largest shops on the reservation to stop selling untaxed packs to the general public, saying such sales were illegal, despite the state's tolerance of the practice.

Publicly, the shops promised to abide by the ruling, but in a motion filed in federal court on Wednesday, lawyers for the city said three dealers quietly continued to do business through newly formed cigarette stores not covered by the court order.

"It shows contempt for the court's authority," said Eric Proshansky, an attorney for the city.

The tribe's chief, Harry Wallace, didn't immediately return a phone and e-mail message from The Associated Press on Thursday, but told Newsday that the allegations are false.

The city has asked U.S. District Court Judge Carol Amon for thousands of dollars in penalties against the three dealers.

Lawyers for two of the dealers declined comment. Richard Levitt, a lawyer who represents dealer Wayne Harris, wouldn't discuss his client's case in detail but said, "the evidence will show that he is not in contempt of the court's order."

In August, Amon ruled that the tribal shops' longtime practice of selling cigarettes without collecting required state taxes was illegal.

She ordered eight shops to stop selling cigarettes to anyone who wasn't enrolled in the tribe, and barred 11 people affiliated with those stores from further sales to the general public. The three dealers were all named in that order.

The shops have appealed, but all had also publicly claimed to have ceased operations by September.

City lawyers didn't buy it, and investigated with the assistance of agents from the state's tax enforcement division.

The case is being watched closely because of its potential effect on other Indian reservations around the state.

Shops on tribal land now account for nearly a third of all cigarettes sold annually in New York. This booming business is a product of the state's longtime reluctance to collect taxes on cigarettes sold on tribal land, which means reservation shops can offer tobacco at a huge discount.

Relatively few shop owners have ever been charged in criminal court over their dealings in untaxed cigarettes.

are the tribes above the law?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/15/09 08:43 AM

paterson - did you run out of money yet?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/17/09 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.





Is Ray Halbritter aware of this?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/11/10 06:06 AM

Paterson will not bow down to special interest groups?
even the ones that burn tires on the thruway?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/11/10 10:41 AM

Senecas confront tobacco roadblock
As Congress threatens mail-order cigarette business, nation puts up a last-ditch fight
By Jerry Zremski
Updated: January 11, 2010, 12:17 AM / 33 comments


WASHINGTON — Congress may be about to put the Seneca Nation's mail-order cigarette industry out of business.

The Senate is expected to soon consider a bill that would bar the U.S. Postal Service — which has been handling an estimated 70 percent of the Senecas' tobacco merchandise — from delivering those cigarettes. The House passed a similar measure last May, and lawmakers and anti-smoking lobbyists talk as if the new legislation could be a done deal before long.

In other words, Albany's long-standing quest to curb the Senecas' sales of tax-free cigarettes may soon end successfully in Washington, leaving the Indian nation's smoke shops as the central remaining venue for its tobacco business.

But the Senecas are putting up a last-ditch fight, contending that the bill threatens 1,000 jobs and unsuccessfully prodding New York's senators to oppose the measure — even though they co-sponsored it.

Then again, that sort of turnabout would not be unprecedented.

Democratic Reps. Brian Higgins of Buffalo and Eric J.J. Massa of Corning recently expressed qualms about the bill, even though they voted for the House version last year.

Those qualms stem in part from the grave concerns of their Seneca constituents.

"An attack on the Seneca Nation is an attack on the economy of Western New York," said J.C. Seneca, a successful tobacco entrepreneur who also is co-chairman of the tribe's Foreign Relations Committee.

Considering its cigarette businesses, casinos and other enterprises, the Seneca Nation represents "a $1.1 billion economic engine" for the area, Seneca said.

"We are in the infancy of our economy," he added. "Let us use [the tobacco trade] to build on, to diversify."

Such aspirant words ring hollow to officials from the State of New York, as well as the anti-smoking lobby, who see the Senecas building their economy on tax evasion and sales of a an addictive carcinogenic product.

Paterson backs PACT


The state backs the proposed federal law — the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act — even though it would provide the state only an estimated $30 million a year in new tax revenue from people who would buy cigarettes at stores rather than from the Senecas by mail.

That's far short of the $220 million the state would get if it could tax the cigarettes that the Senecas currently sell both through the U.S. mail and at their smoke shops, but it's good enough for Gov. David A. Paterson.

"We strongly support the PACT Act," said Morgan Hook, a spokesman for the governor. "Eliminating the ability of cigarette sellers to ship cigarettes to customers by mail is in the interest of the public health."

The House passed its version of the PACT Act by a 397-11 margin last May.

Even though versions of the bill have been kicking around for years, congressional sources said that it was rushed onto the House calendar before the Senecas could wage a big fight — and before some lawmakers understood its ramifications.

That's why Higgins and Massa have changed their tune.

The PACT Act "would eliminate the [Senecas'] mail-order businesses and associated employment," Higgins wrote in a Dec. 14 letter to Democratic Sens. Charles E. Schumer and Kirsten E. Gillibrand of New York. "I do not believe that Western New York can afford any more job losses and so this letter is a request for your help in preventing that from happening."

Asked about the letter, Higgins said it stemmed from concerns that a North Carolina senator would add language to the bill to shelter a tobacco seller in that state from the law.

"I still support the bill," Higgins said. "My point — perhaps unclear in the letter — was, if the Senate is going to amend the bill to protect North Carolina, would they consider amending it to protect New York?"

But Senate sources said the bill's sponsor, Sen. Herb Kohl, D-Wis., refused to grant exemptions to North Carolina or any other state. And a spokesman for Sen. Richard M. Burr, the North Carolina Republican who had sought such an exemption, said there would be no such language in the final bill.

Nevertheless, Massa — who sent Gillibrand a Dec. 16 letter urging her to prevent a quick vote on the matter — said he now opposes the PACT Act.

Massa said that his view evolved "as I became more informed" and that he now worries that the bill would infringe on the Seneca Nation's rights established by treaty more than two centuries ago.

"It is my job to uphold federal treaties, and this is one of them," Massa said in an interview. Richard E. Nephew, chairman of the Seneca Nation Legislative Council, echoed that concern. "It all begins with our treaty rights, which we were given by the federal government and which say that we will be undisturbed in our territory," Nephew said. "We've learned to capitalize on that."

Competitive advantage


There's no doubt of that.

About 11.8 million cartons of stamped, legally sanctioned cigarettes flowed through the Seneca reservations in 2008, the state Department of Taxation and Finance reported.

That's about 1,483 cartons of cigarettes for every Native American living on Seneca lands — and that doesn't count the counterfeit or smuggled cigarettes that critics believe pass through Seneca hands on their way to smokers nationwide.

Citing the sovereignty of Indian lands, Seneca merchants refuse to collect state taxes on the cigarettes they sell, giving them a huge advantage over convenience stores and other outlets that sell tobacco products at full price. That has made Seneca smoke shops and mail-order cigarette businesses a huge success.

Seneca cigarette sales peaked at 29.8 million cartons in 2004 and have fallen sharply since then, as credit card companies and shippers such as FedEx, UPS and DHL bowed to state pressure and stopped servicing Seneca cigarette businesses.

What's left is still a thriving business that, the Senecas say, employs 1,000 people — and relies primarily on the Postal Service to deliver its goods.

Asked to detail where those 1,000 jobs are, the tribe declined.

"Do they really expect us to fall for the canard that cigarette tax evasion is an economic-development engine?" said James S. Calvin, president of the New York Association of Convenience Stores.

Calvin and other supporters of the federal bill argue that many of the Seneca jobs would simply shift to cigarette sellers who pay taxes — and who do a better job of ensuring that tobacco products don't get sold to minors.

Even though the Seneca businesses require a copy of the customer's ID before shipping out cigarettes, anti-smoking advocates said it's still far easier for kids to borrow a parent's ID and order smokes than it is to buy them face to face. "This bill is all about making sure cigarettes don't get in the hands of kids and that the tax revenue goes to the state," said Russell C. Sciandra, director of the Center for a Tobacco Free New York.

The Senecas counter by insisting they are diligent on checking IDs and by stressing that they have worked with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to crack down on cigarette trafficking.

In fact, Ronald B. Turk, the ATF's special agent in charge for New York, lauded the Senecas' efforts in a letter last May. "As a result of the Seneca Nation's cooperative efforts with ATF, several investigations into illicit cigarette trafficking have been initiated and are now being prosecuted," Turk wrote. "The assistance provided thus far has been invaluable."

Strange bedfellows


If the Seneca Nation and the ATF seem like strange bedfellows, note this: Supporters of the PACT Act include not only the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, but also Altria, the tobacco giant once known as Philip Morris. Altria is part of the Coalition to Stop Contraband Tobacco, which is lobbying for the bill's passage — a fact that leaves the Senecas arguing that they're in a death struggle with Big Tobacco.

"It's all about money for Philip Morris," said Seneca, who now manufactures his own brand of cigarettes, called Buffalo. "They're losing market share."

While private shippers — who have voluntarily stopped delivering the cigarettes — would still be able to legally ship them under the PACT Act, the Senecas are pressuring Schumer and Gillibrand to try to stop the bill in the Senate. But that argument appears to be getting nowhere.

Congressional aides said Kohl is seeking a way to get the measure passed quickly and to then get the House to simply repass the Senate's slightly different version of the bill.

New York's senators remain steadfast in their support of the PACT Act.

"Sen. Gillibrand supports the legislation because it will end illegal trafficking of cigarettes to minors," said her spokeswoman, Bethany Lesser.

Schumer spokesman Max Young said: "We strongly believe that cigarettes should not be sold in the mail or anywhere else to children or minors."

jzremski@buffnews.com

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/18/10 07:48 AM

how much will the deficit be when paterson speaks?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/19/10 11:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie



Paterson stated he will move "expeditious" to collect the tribal taxes as stated today in his address on the budget.

Forebearance will no longer be tolerated..............
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/22/10 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie



Paterson stated he will move "expeditious" to collect the tribal taxes as stated today in his address on the budget.

Forebearance will no longer be tolerated..............



Yeah OK! Like I said before.... I see how much success Cuomo, Pataki, and Spitzer had. LOL

Paterson may be blind and can't see them rioting and blocking the Thruway....But I am SURE he can smell the the tires burning! LOL
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/22/10 01:01 AM

Yellow Pages

Find whatever you're looking for
with Totally Local Yellow Pages



Search provided by Premier Guide
Featured Business »
By Julie Sherwood, staff writer
Messenger Post
Posted Jan 21, 2010 @ 05:30 PM
Canandaigua, N.Y. —

A pair of proposed measures at the state and federal levels could create a perfect storm over Native American reservations, driving up the cost of cigarettes.

Gov. David Paterson’s budget proposal calls for the tax department to draft regulations to enforce a 2008 law intended to stop wholesalers from selling untaxed cigarettes to tribes.
Meanwhile, if a bill to be voted on soon in the U.S. Senate passes, buying tax-free cigarettes via mail-order from Native American reservations won’t be an option.


By the Numbers

$2.75
Excise tax on cigarettes

4 percent
State sales tax on cigarettes

$200M
Amount of tax to be gained through reservations





New York’s U.S. senators, Democrats Kirsten Gillibrand and Chuck Schumer, are co-sponsors of Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act. “It will end illegal trafficking of cigarettes to minors,” said Gillibrand spokeswoman Bethany Lesser.

U.S. Rep. Eric Massa, D-Corning, who voted for the House version of the bill that passed in May, said he supported it for the same reason. Recently, though, he has voiced opposition, saying the Seneca Nation has taken measures to ensure minors can’t buy mail-order cigarettes.
The Senecas “have complied, they have done everything necessary to ensure minors can not buy tobacco,” said Massa. “The overall goal, ... that children can not buy cigarettes online, that has been met.”

Meanwhile, Seneca Nation President Barry Snyder said in a press release the PACT Act would devastate the Seneca’s economy. He said the nation has taken steps to regulate the sale of tobacco products, such as working with the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, to implement a cigarette-carton stamping program to enforce the ban on tobacco sales to minors.


Sales tax debate.
Assembly Minority Leader Brian M. Kolb is endorsing Gov. David Paterson’s budget directive requiring the State Department of Taxation and Finance to move forward in collecting sales taxes from purchases made on Native American lands by non-Native Americans.

The governor said Tuesday he would order his tax department to draft regulations to enforce a 2008 law intended to stop wholesalers from selling untaxed cigarettes to tribes.
That would force Indian retailers who currently don’t charge the state’s $2.75-per-pack excise tax and 4 percent sales tax to pay more to suppliers up front and ultimately raise their prices.
The Canandaigua Republican characterized the measure as the “right thing to do” to ensure a “level playing field for all convenience stores.”
“If our laws are to mean anything, they must be applied equally to everyone,” said Kolb in a prepared statement. “No person or group is above the law or below it.”

Paterson’s budget proposal does not yet anticipate any revenue from reservation sales to non-Indians because the regulations are not in place, but supporters of the tax collection plan, including the New York Association of Convenience Stores, estimate the state would raise hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
“The fact that it could generate over $200 million in the collection of state sales taxes on cigarette sales alone is welcome news in light of New York’s multi-billion dollar budget gap that needs closing,” Kolb said.

The Seneca Nation has said it will sit down with the governor to discuss the proposal, but it refuses to collect sales tax for the state.

Retailers weigh in
The state tax on cigarettes, proposed to go up another dollar, has already killed a lot of his sales, said Jeff Bliss, manager of Bliss Shurfine in Manchester. “Most (smokers) are just tiding themselves over to the next time they visit the reservation,” he said, buying “a pack here, a pack there.”
Richard Rank, co-owner of Rank’s IGA in Canandaigua, agreed. Both said the licensing fee they have to pay to sell cigarettes recently rose from $100 to $2,500. Rank questions how much longer he can afford to sell cigarettes.
A ban on mail-order cigarettes “might help sales a little bit,” he said. “But if sales go down the tubes, I will definitely get out of it.”
Posted by: SilverRose

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/22/10 05:54 AM

I know this is a simplistic thought to a complex issue, but why doesn't the government tax the cigarettes BEFORE they leave the point of origin 'store' where the Indians are buying them? One "built in cost" for all purchasers - Indians/non-indians - tax paid - controversy done - no additional taxes to the consumer down the line.

Walmart/other stores charge customers, Indians/non-indians, the same tax on products purchased, so why not the original dispensers of cigarettes? That would remove the controversy. The various retailors could then charge whatever the need dictates to cover their costs (shipping/handling).

Wouldn't that level the playing field?




.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/10 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie
Yeah OK! Like I said before.... I see how much success Cuomo, Pataki, and Spitzer had. LOL


AG cuomo
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/10 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Meanwhile, Seneca Nation President Barry Snyder said in a press release the PACT Act would devastate the Seneca’s economy. He said the nation has taken steps to regulate the sale of tobacco products, such as working with the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, to implement a cigarette-carton stamping program to enforce the ban on tobacco sales to minors.



the senecas want a stamping program for minors but not for sales taxes....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/29/10 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: SilverRose

Wouldn't that level the playing field?

.


tribes make their own cigs
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/02/10 08:26 AM

Tobacco tax boost tied to Indian issue
By Tom Precious
NEWS ALBANY BUREAU
Updated: January 27, 2010, 7:12 am / 10 comments

ALBANY — A legislative push would deny Gov. David A. Paterson his $1-per-pack cigarette tax increase until the state begins collecting taxes on tobacco products sold on American Indian reservations.

The governor included the cigarette tax increase in his proposed budget. But when the governor’s call to start collecting the taxes on such sales to non-Indians would kick in remains unclear, although it likely would be months after the proposed tobacco tax increase takes effect June 2.

“We should collect before we tax,” State Sen. Carl Kruger, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, said Tuesday at a legislative hearing looking into ways to end the tax-free sales.

“Everyday that goes by we are not doing the right thing for the people of New York,” said Kruger, a Brooklyn Democrat who called the long-standing tax-free sales a “diabolical scheme” that has denied the state billions of dollars in tax revenue.
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/03/10 02:21 AM

How many threads are you going to post this in?? \:\/

Also all this article PROVES is that Paterson is CLUELESS and Carl Kruger and the others KNOW that the $1/pack tax would send even MORE people to the Native Americans for their tax free smokes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/10/10 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie
How many threads are you going to post this in?? \:\/



did you comprehend it yet?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/12/10 01:52 PM

Counties' lawyer disputes tribal claims


by DAVID L. SHAW/dshaw@fltimes.com
Friday, February 12, 2010 11:04 AM CST


To no one’s surprise, the lawyer representing Seneca and Cayuga counties in the Cayuga Indian Nation cigarette sales tax case disputes arguments made by tribal lawyers.

In a reply brief filed Tuesday, Philip G. Spellane of the Harris Beach law firm in Rochester has these goals:

• To reiterate why the counties’ position in requesting the Cayugas’ two convenience stores charge sales tax on cigarettes it sells to non-Indians is correct and should be upheld by the state’s highest court.

• To again state why the Appellate Division Court ruling in favor of the Cayugas is flawed and should be reversed.

• To explain why the brief filed by lawyers for the tribe to the Court of Appeals is also flawed and “fails to save that decision from several fatal deficiencies.”
ADVERTISEMENT



One point the Cayuga Nation lawyers attempt to make is that the tribe is not prohibited from seeking civil relief to head off criminal proceedings initiated by the counties.

“The Nation fails to support this extraordinary claim, completely overlooking the record in the Kelly’s Rental case, which demonstrates that the Court of Appeals meant what it said,” Spellane argued.

“The decision must be reversed to allow a criminal court to deal with the interpretation and application of criminal matters.”

Both counties have sealed grand jury indictments against tribal officials for violating state tax law.

The opening of these indictments and the beginning of criminal proceedings awaits the pending court ruling.

Another issue is whether the Nation’s parcels in Seneca Falls and Union Springs, the sites of their LakeSide Trading convenience stores, are exempt from the cigarette tax.

Spellane said the Nation attempts to import federal common law concepts into the state’s statutory definition of a reservation as used in state tax law.

He argued that New York law applies, and that confirms that the Cayugas don’t possess a reservation under tax law.

Spellane said the Cayugas pay local property taxes on the land they have purchased in the two counties and their lands are subject to local zoning regulations.

He also said the U.S. Supreme Court decision in the City of Sherrill vs. Oneida Indian Nation case “makes it clear that ancient, repurchased Indian lands are subject to state taxation, even absent the formality of an act of Congress disestablishing a reservation.”

The Nation may not sell tax-free cigarettes to anyone because it has no recognized reservation, Spellane argues.

He claims that tax law “clearly states that an Indian retailer may only sell tax-free to its own members.”

“The purpose of the tax statutes is not to make Indian retailers extremely wealthy by allowing them to sell tax-free to the public at large,” he said.

He rejects the Nation’s argument that the burden should be placed on non-Indian customers to send their tax on cigarettes purchases from the tribal stores to the state.

“That argument is contrary to the plain language of the statute, which imposes the tax at the wholesale level and subjects retailers, Indian or not, to criminal prosecution if they sell tax-free cigarettes to the general public,” Spellane said.

In conclusion, Spellane tells the Court of Appeals that the Appellate Court decision should be reversed for the following three reasons:

• The Nation may not collaterally attack a criminal proceeding with a civil action.

• The Nation has no reservation in Seneca or Cayuga county from which it may sell unstamped, tax-free cigarettes to anyone.

• The Nation’s possession and sale of unstamped, tax-free cigarettes to the general public violates state tax law.

The Court of Appeals will now review the legal briefs filed by both sides.

Oral arguments are scheduled for March 25 in the Onondaga County Courthouse in Syracuse.


AG Cuomo should just raid the stores to collect the unpaid taxes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/20/10 04:59 PM

Obama administration seeking nearly $300 billion from tobacco industry in Supreme Court appeal

Both sides take tobacco fight to Supreme Court
By MARK SHERMAN | Associated Press | Feb 19, 10 4:37 PM CST in Business

The Obama administration asked the Supreme Court Friday to allow the government to seek nearly $300 billion from the tobacco industry for a half-century of deception that "has cost the lives and damaged the health of untold millions of Americans."

Both sides in a landmark, decade-long legal fight over smoking took their case to the high court Friday.

The administration, joined by public health groups, wants the court to throw out rulings that bar the government from collecting $280 billion of past tobacco profits or $14 billion for a national campaign to curb smoking.

Leading tobacco companies accounting for 90 percent of U.S. cigarette sales want the justices to wipe away court holdings that the industry illegally concealed the dangers of cigarette smoking. If they succeed, the attack on their profits also would be halted.

Friday's filings with the Supreme Court mark the latest phase in a lawsuit that began during Bill Clinton's presidency.

Philip Morris USA, the nation's largest tobacco maker, its parent company Altria Group Inc., R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co., British American Tobacco Investments Ltd. and Lorillard Tobacco Co. filed separate but related appeals that take issue with a federal judge's 1,600-page opinion and an appeals court ruling that found the industry engaged in racketeering and fraud over several decades.

In 2006, U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler ruled that the companies engaged in a scheme to defraud the public by falsely denying the adverse health effects of smoking, concealing evidence that nicotine is addictive and lying about their manipulation of nicotine in cigarettes to create addiction. A federal appeals court in Washington upheld the findings.

At the same time, however, the courts have said the government is not entitled to collect $280 billion in past profits or $14 billion for a national campaign to curb smoking.

The companies argue that the government improperly used the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations, or RICO law, against them. The racketeering law often is employed against the Mafia and other criminal organizations.

The companies also say the courts' decision to brand their statements about smoking as fraudulent unfairly denied them their First Amendment rights to engage in the public-health debate about smoking. "As long as these statements were true or made in good faith, they fall squarely within the First Amendment's Speech and Petition Clauses, which provide constitutional protection for 'debate on public issues,' " Miguel Estrada, Philip Morris' lawyer, said. Philip Morris makes Marlboro cigarettes and more than a dozen other brands.

The administration said the money it seeks from the industry is commensurate with the harm it has caused. "For the last half century, those defendants have engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity and a conspiracy to engage in racketeering that has cost the lives and damaged the health of untold millions of Americans," Solicitor General Elena Kagan, the administration's top Supreme Court lawyer, wrote.

The public health groups in the case are: American Cancer Society; American Heart Association; American Lung Association; Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights; National African American Tobacco Prevention Network and Tobacco-Free Kids Action Fund.

The groups are most interested in forcing the tobacco companies to pay for a wide-ranging education campaign to discourage people from taking up smoking and helping others quit. They asked the court to recall its words from an earlier tobacco case.

"As this Court has recognized, 'tobacco use, particularly among children and adolescents, poses perhaps the single most significant threat to public health in the United States,'" said Howard Crystal, the groups' lead attorney.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/24/10 05:26 AM

looks like the tax department is going over patersons head to draft new regulations
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/28/10 10:31 AM

tribal members need to get out their passports ;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/02/10 08:53 AM

New tax plan targets tribal smokes
Number of untaxed packs would be based on population

by DAVID L. SHAW/dshaw@fltimes.com
Monday, March 1, 2010 12:10 PM CST

SENECA FALLS — New regulations proposed by the state Department of Taxation and Finance would limit the Cayuga Indian Nation to buying and selling 20,100 packs of tax-free cigarettes each quarter.

That number is based on the Cayuga Nation population of 947, according to the 2000 census, and an average per capita cigarette consumption figure. That works out to 21.2 packs of cigarettes for each Cayuga Nation member each quarter.

The tax-free cigarettes would be available for sale to Cayuga members and members of other recognized Indian tribes, but not non-Indian smokers. The regulations would require non-Indians to pay state taxes on cigarettes bought at a tribal store.

The Cayugas operate LakeSide Trading convenience stores and gas stations in Seneca Falls and Union Springs, where tax-free cigarettes are sold to all customers. That practice has been challenged in court by Seneca and Cayuga counties. The case will be argued before the state Court of Appeals March 25.

The proposed regulations, which would be a new section of state Tax Law, were announced this week by Acting Tax and Finance Commissioner Jamie Woodward.

In a written statement, Woodward said the new regulations “would ensure that an adequate quantity of tax-free cigarettes would be available for purchase for the use of each Indian tribe or nation and for personal consumption by members of that tribe or nation.’’

“At the same time, they would prevent the unlimited flow of tax-free cigarettes to Indian reservation retailers,’’ Woodward said.

“The proposal would serve to address long-standing issues that have proved problematic for previous administrations and frustrating for local, non-reservation retailers who have not been able to compete for sales on a level playing field,’’ Woodward said.

The regulations would also mean that cigarette manufacturers could sell cigarettes to a licensed cigarette stamping agent only when the agency certifies that the sale is in compliance with the Tax Law.

Each September, the Tax Department would determine the annual amount of untaxed packs of cigarettes for each Nation for the forthcoming 12-month period, beginning Dec. 1.

The count of tribal members used in the formula will be census data, increased by 10 percent to allow for potential undercounting.

The tribe’s adjusted population number would then be multiplied by average annual cigarette consumption, then pro-rated quarterly beginning in December, March, June and September. The quarterly consumption amounts would then be rounded upward to accommodate cases of 300 packs of 20 cigarettes.

The numbers are subject to adjustments based on evidence provided by the Indian tribes as to their actual cigarette consumption for those periods.

Other tribes and their estimated quarterly untaxed cigarette pack allotment, based on population, include:

• Oneida Indians, 31,200.

• Onondagas, 60,600.

• Senecas, 168,600.

• Poostatuck, 8,100.

• Shinnecock, 40,500.

• Tonawanda Band of Senecas, 5,700.

• Tuscarora, 21,900.

• St. Regis Mohawk, 291,600.

Woodward also revoked an advisory opinion issued March 16, 2006. Current court injunctions that prevent the Tax Department from enforcing the tax laws related to sale by stamping agents to reservation sellers and reservations sales at the tribal level to non-Indians remain in place.

Along with these proposed regulations, Gov. David A. Paterson will soon propose legislation to clarify the Section 471, sub-section 4 of the Tax Law, the basis for the certification process. That is independent of the mechanism see out in Tax Law Section 471-e.

The Tax Department will accept comments from any interested party on the proposed regulations within 45 days of the publication.

The complete text of the regulations and other contact information can be found at http://www.nystax.gov.

Philip Spellane, lawyer for the two counties in the sales tax litigation, said he recalls the regulations being proposed in the past and then abandoned.

“It’s not a novel idea. It’s good they are trying to work out a resolution to collect these taxes,’’ Spellane said.

“I know there’s a lot of pressure from all sides and this issue will not go away,’’ Spellane said.

He declined to comment on whether the regulations would be a good solution to the problem, citing the pending litigation on the issue.

Cayuga Nation representatives could not be reached for comment
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/07/10 04:20 PM

DNA test at 100% for tax exempt
Posted by: Scottie2Hottie

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/09/10 05:28 AM

WOOOOO HOOOOO

http://news10now.com/mohawk-valley-news-...rust-challenges


CENTRAL NEW YORK -- The latest court ruling in the Oneida Land Trust lawsuit is a win for the Nation. Two years ago, the Department of Interior decided to put 13,000 acres of land into trust for the Oneida Indian Nation.

On Monday, a federal court dismissed a number of claims brought by the Central New York Fair Business Association, along with Oneida County Legislator Michael Hennessy, Assemblyman David Townsend and others.

In U.S. District Court Judge Lawrence Kahn's decision, he said:

* Upheld the constitutionality of trust land

* Rejected claims of illegal gaming on non-Indian lands

* Reaffirmed the Oneida reservation was never disestablished

* Dismissed allegations the Department of Interior's land into trust decision was racially discriminatory

* Upheld the decision to transfer the 18 acre Verona annex to the Griffiss Air Force Base

* Dropped claims against Nation Representative Ray Halbritter.



"We expected it. We've always known it's got to go to the Supreme Court and that's where the final determining decision should be made," said Hennessy.

In a statement, Nation spokesperson Mark Emery said, "In the absence of a resolution, the Nation obviously is very pleased with this ruling, as it moves the trust land challenges significantly closer to closure."

Oneida County has its own lawsuit against the nation. Last year the Board of Legislators rejected a $55 million agreement that would have ended the county's land trust lawsuits. County Executive Anthony Picente said he'd be willing to negotiate again only if the board lays out its parameters.

"If we want to deal with what is in front us and what's under our direction in terms of property taxes, and land use and issues that are relevant and under our direction and together with the Oneidas then let's do it," said Picente.

Hennessy says he has no regrets about rejecting last year's proposed settlement. At this point in time the Trust Land Issue will move forward in the courts.

In a statement to News 10 Now, Assemblyman David Townsend said he wasn't surprised by the court's decision and this issue should go all the way to the Supreme Court.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/09/10 02:24 PM

did you read the ruling?

many many hurdles for the tribe
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/18/10 09:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?

As BZ asked - WHAT treaty are you referring to? Surely NOT the Treaty of Canandaigua in which was recognized the right of the tribes to sell their remaining lands, which they did.


Talk about hypocritical? To argue that enforcing the law would cause a loss of jobs or closure of businesses is a bit hypocritical. The tribes making those arguments closed down competitors and took jobs from legitimate tax paying businesses by intimidating the state to selectively enforce the law against everyone else. What about those people's rights?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/22/10 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/31/10 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court rules for state in American Indian land case

The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 24, 2009; 10:41 AM

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court on Tuesday limited the federal government's authority to hold land in trust for Indian tribes, a victory for states seeking to impose local laws and control over development on Indian lands.

The court's ruling applies to tribes recognized by the federal government after the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act.

The U.S. government argued that the law allows it to take land into trust for tribes regardless of when they were recognized, but Justice Clarence Thomas said in his majority opinion that the law "unambiguously refers to those tribes that were under the federal jurisdiction" when it was enacted.

The ruling comes in a case involving the Narragansett Indian Tribe in Rhode Island and a 31-acre tract of land.

At issue was whether the land, in Charlestown, R.I., should be subject to state law, including a prohibition on casino gambling, or whether the parcel should be governed by tribal and federal law.

The dispute dates to 1991, when the Narragansetts purchased the land to build an elderly housing complex, which remains incomplete.

The 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Boston rejected the state's argument that Rhode Island should be the applicable authority. The high court reversed the appellate ruling.

Justice Stephen Breyer, who joined the majority opinion, indicated that it is possible that tribes not recognized by the federal government before the 1934 law might still have been under federal jurisdiction "even though the federal government did not believe so at the time." As an example, Breyer said, the government has acknowledged that some tribes were mistakenly left off a list the Interior Department compiled following the law's enactment.

But Breyer said he did not forsee that possibility for the Narragansetts.

Only Justice John Paul Stevens fully dissented from Thomas' opinion, which he called a "cramped reading" of the 1934 law.

A spokeswoman for Rhode Island Gov. Don Carcieri did not immediately return a call seeking comment. Jack Killoy, an attorney for the Narragansett Indian Tribe, said he had not read the decision and could not immediately discuss it.

The case is Carcieri v. Salazar, 07-526.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/31/10 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?

.


?????
.
Still waiting?????

Just name one aspect of a treaty that was broken.

.

.








still looking ???????


.


...




Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm...


Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
So.......in regards to the Treaty of Canandaigua, NYS has not broken it.






how about showing us a treaty that states tribes do not have to pay taxes in NYS?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/01/10 01:30 PM

Obama signs cigarette trafficking bill over tribal objections
Thursday, April 1, 2010


President Barack Obama signed the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act into law on Wednesday.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/08/10 10:09 AM

wonder if obama worked out this deal.
paterson should take notes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/20/10 09:38 AM

paterson/ravitch
can you say worthless
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/22/10 09:46 AM

April 22, 2010

ALBANY — The Paterson administration will soon advance new tax regulations to begin the collection of excise taxes on cigarette sales by Native American retailers, a top aide to Gov. David A. Paterson said Wednesday. The move was sharply condemned by a top Seneca Nation leader.

“The governor will enforce the law, and we are taking steps necessary to do that. There shouldn’t be any doubt about that,” said Peter Kiernan, the governor’s counsel.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/30/10 07:49 AM

how much time paterson?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/02/10 07:36 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

State Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican and a member of the committee on investigations and government operations, said during Tuesday's hearing that the time for negotiating is over. He said he favors a "drop dead" date, to start charging the tax whether the tribes agreed to it or not.

Wagging his finger at Indians in the audience, he said the U.S. victory over the British during the Revolutionary War gave the government the right to tax its citizens, and he suggested that the tribes benefited from state health, education and public works programs and should therefore be required to pay the same taxes.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/04/10 07:06 AM

Oneidas Want Cigarette Charges Dropped
Source: Finger Lakes News Radio

The Oneida man-arrested last Friday in Montezuma-for transporting 2,900 cartons of untaxed cigarettes-was connected to an Indian tribe.

The Auburn Citizen reports that 30- year old Adam Berdanier is an employee of the Oneida Indian Nation and was stopped because his truck did not have a vaild state Department of Transportation number on it. That's when State Police found the untaxed cigarettes.

Oneida Indian Nation Spokeman Mark Emery says quote " the police officer made a serious mistake by arresting an innocent worker who was lawfullly doing his job." It's a felony if you are in possession of more that 30,000 untaxed cigarettes. The tribe wants the charges dropped.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/12/10 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Have we forgot?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/12/10 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
Updated: 06/12/2009 06:04 AM
By: Bill Carey

AUBURN, N.Y. -- The message from a host of Cayuga County officials was a simple one. If the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs agrees to allow the Cayuga Indians to place land into federal trust, tax losses for local schools and governments will be substantial and local businesses competing with Indian enterprises will be hurt.

“This is any business. Towing businesses. This is garages. Anything that can operate tax free on land in trust land can certainly affect the businesses here,” said Cayuga County legislator David Axton.

And the officials say they have numbers to back up their claims. Just last year, Cayuga and Seneca County authorities shut down cigarette sales by two service stations operated by the Cayuga Nation, claiming they were evading tax laws. The county has surveyed other convenience stores in the area and says most have seen increases in cigarette sales of 20 to 40 percent since that shutdown. They estimate they may have been losing millions in tax revenues prior to the action.

Cayuga and Seneca counties were the first to take action to disrupt cigarette sales by an Indian nation. They were hoping the message would be clear in Albany.

Governor Paterson has already signed legislation calling for collection of taxes on Indian cigarette sales and, in Cayuga County, they say a state facing billions in red ink should look at the potential windfall.

Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
The long running dispute over land claims by the Cayuga Indians and the insistence of Cayuga and Seneca counties on their rights to tax revenues is about to heat up again. At issue, the Cayugas move to have the federal government allow 130 acres of land to be put into federal trust, exempting it from local taxes. Our Bill Carey says the campaign to block the move is underway.

“You're talking $30 million from two little convenience stores . You multiply that, times the Smoking Joes, 110 of those, the Sav-Ons in Oneida, the Long Island, all the millions of cigarettes they're selling down there, it's about a billion dollars in taxes a year that the state's missing out on ,” said Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann.

Some counties have opened negotiations with various Indian groups hoping to settle land claims and tax issues. Cayuga County hasn't taken that route.

“We have no discussions going on in the legislature about any kind of settlement,” said Cayuga County Legislature Chairman Peter Tortorici.

The case against sovereignty and against placement of land into trust, they say, is clear.

The hearing by the Bureau of Indian Affairs is due on June 17th in Seneca Falls.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/24/10 10:23 AM

AG cuomo are you going to enforce the laws?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/02/10 03:38 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city

Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/09/10 06:49 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm...


Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
So.......in regards to the Treaty of Canandaigua, NYS has not broken it.




then it is a STATE reservation and not a federal one


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/10/10 08:08 AM

paterson it is time
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/10/10 08:09 AM

ALBANY -The Enforce the Law — Collect the Tax Coalition held a press conference Tuesday, calling for the collection of nearly $1 billion in revenue from uncollected cigarette taxes.

The excise, county and state sales taxes are not collected on cigarettes sold by Native American tribes at their convenience
stores, even though state law requires the collection.

Among those speaking at the press conference was Assembly Minority Leader Brian Kolb, R-129 of Canandaigua. “This morning, I proudly stand with members of the Enforce the Law — Collect the Tax Coalition and state officials from both political parties to again call on New York to move forward in collecting hundreds of millions in revenues being lost through cigarette and gasoline sales on Native American land to non-Indians,” Kolb said in a statement Tuesday. “The collection of these taxes must be a top priority before this legislative session concludes. Albany cannot be allowed to put it off for another year.”

He said the time for further delay or additional review is over. “It’s time to enforce the law and collect the taxes,” he said. The coalition has unveiled a tax loss calculator, based on a report by the New York Association of Convenience Stores, that
indicates the state loses $1,900 every minute the law is not nforced and the tax on cigarettes sold to non-Indians is not collected. The coalition said the revenue is needed more than ever with the state facing a $850 million shortfall in the 2010-11 fiscal year.

“Before our leaders in Albany close parks, cut schools, raise taxes or borrow billions, they should enforce the laws on the books and collect the sales taxes,” said James Calvin, president of the convenience store association
Posted by: LeeAnnRagains

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/17/10 03:45 PM

The solution is Positive & Simple; End the Trust Responsibility THEN we will no longer be Segregated. We are American Citizens that are being segregated by the 1830 Indian Removal Act of War that was declared by Congress. Every treaty, legislative act & supreme court ruling; CONTINUES the original terms of the 1830 imprisonment by renegotiating this hostage situation with the 564 Tribal Counsels that use - us & our children living on the Rez or Not.

http://forums.fingerlakes1.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1174351&page=0
1959 IRS Ruling Trust for NONCOMPETENT INDIANS conversation with Lee Ann Ragains

The 1887 Dawes & 1906 Burke Acts limited the Trust Responsibility to END 25 yrs after the Reservation Lands were allotted. Which means the Burke Act should've ENDED in 1931. Except, the 1924 Citizenship Act should have ENDED the Illegal Trust and the Illegal War Power of the Secretary as our Trustee.

President Obama must issue the Executive Order for an Emancipation Proclamation to END the Trust Responsibility by releasing the Land & Money that is illegally being held by the Secretary of the DOI because;

The 1830 Indian Removal Act of War is over.

1924 American Indians are Competent Equal Citizens of the United States

1954 Segregation is unconstitutional

IF President Obama does NOT Emancipate the 564 Federally Recognized Tribes and their members from the Secretary of the DOI & BIA Trust Responsibility then President Obama endorses;

Civil Rights Violations against American Indians

Ethnic Profiling for Illegal Segregations of the 564 Federally Recognized Tribes, their members & potential members

FTC Anti-trust Violations

and

Tax Evasion that continues WITHOUT a competency hearing as Land is held in Trust for Incompetent Indians


Every Federally Recognized Tribe has Land that is being held in the Trust as a Tribe and for Individuals that were allotted lands = They Do Not have to pay Taxes or comply with State Laws because they are Not Competent. (see 1959 IRS Ruling for Incompetent Indians)

A Competency Hearing - has never been held - to justify the Illegal Trust Responsibility to hold the lands in a Trust nor to appoint the Secretary of the DOI as our Trustee.

Therefore, the 564 Federally recognized tribes and their members are Incompetent and their children will never be Competent. That is why the DOI/BIA says "These Incompetent Dependent Federally Recognized Indians aren't smart enough to enter into a business contract on their own so the DOI Secretary, BIA, Senate Committee on Indian Affairs will have to approve all transactions between Incompetent Tribes & Dependent Individual Indians to do any business with rest of America."

Unless they have a State Compact, Oklahoma Tribes are only required to pay 50% of the taxes on their Total Profits because the rest of the 50% of the taxable income is held in the Trust for those Incompetent Dependent Indians - that do not have to pay taxes - because of the Illegal declaration of Incompetence. see the video of the NewsOK interview: "It’s still growing,” state Treasurer Scott Meacham said. "We don’t know where it’s going to top out at.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahomas-gaming-share-grows/article/3383749#ixzz0n5zmr2CT

"Oklahoma’s 29 gaming tribes contributed nearly $106 million to the state in fiscal year 2009, according to the Office of State Finance. That figure was about $81 million the previous year."

The Secretary of the Interior has been Illegally appointed to be the Special Trustee with the Illegal responsibility to hold land & money in a Trust for Illegally declared Incompetent Indians.

Emancipation of the Tribes & their members & potential members would mean, that in a Gambling State, COMPETENT American Citizens must comply with all City, County, State & Federal Laws.

Thank you for helping us to be equal, LeeAnnRagains.com
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/28/10 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city

Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



the cayuga tribe moved out of the area also

no reservation
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/09/10 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Dec 10, 3:12 PM EST

Indian reservation cigarettes under fire in NY

By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer
Battle against smoking drags on, years after tobacco settlement

NEW YORK (AP) -- The City of New York has accused several cigarette dealers on a Long Island Indian reservation of secretly defying a court order that was supposed to have shut them down.

The charge is the latest in a legal battle between New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and smoke shops on the Poospatuck Indian Reservation over the sale of millions of dollars in untaxed cigarettes.

In August, a federal judge ordered most of the largest shops on the reservation to stop selling untaxed packs to the general public, saying such sales were illegal, despite the state's tolerance of the practice.

Publicly, the shops promised to abide by the ruling, but in a motion filed in federal court on Wednesday, lawyers for the city said three dealers quietly continued to do business through newly formed cigarette stores not covered by the court order.

"It shows contempt for the court's authority," said Eric Proshansky, an attorney for the city.

The tribe's chief, Harry Wallace, didn't immediately return a phone and e-mail message from The Associated Press on Thursday, but told Newsday that the allegations are false.

The city has asked U.S. District Court Judge Carol Amon for thousands of dollars in penalties against the three dealers.

Lawyers for two of the dealers declined comment. Richard Levitt, a lawyer who represents dealer Wayne Harris, wouldn't discuss his client's case in detail but said, "the evidence will show that he is not in contempt of the court's order."

In August, Amon ruled that the tribal shops' longtime practice of selling cigarettes without collecting required state taxes was illegal.

She ordered eight shops to stop selling cigarettes to anyone who wasn't enrolled in the tribe, and barred 11 people affiliated with those stores from further sales to the general public. The three dealers were all named in that order.

The shops have appealed, but all had also publicly claimed to have ceased operations by September.

City lawyers didn't buy it, and investigated with the assistance of agents from the state's tax enforcement division.

The case is being watched closely because of its potential effect on other Indian reservations around the state.

Shops on tribal land now account for nearly a third of all cigarettes sold annually in New York. This booming business is a product of the state's longtime reluctance to collect taxes on cigarettes sold on tribal land, which means reservation shops can offer tobacco at a huge discount.

Relatively few shop owners have ever been charged in criminal court over their dealings in untaxed cigarettes.

are the tribes above the law?

Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/09/10 07:51 PM

June 18th we went to Turning Stone to the Buffet for our anniversary.... You will be happy to know we paid TAX on our food purchases. Now that Turning Stoes food and beverage is run by a seperate entity they have to pay tax on all food and beverage purchases
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/11/10 10:52 AM

but is it on a "qualified reservation"?

hum
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/12/10 06:45 AM

What does it matter as long as taxes are being paid?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/10 03:39 PM

then why not have the tribe pay all their taxes?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/15/10 10:29 AM

Originally Posted By: LeeAnnRagains
The solution is Positive & Simple; End the Trust Responsibility THEN we will no longer be Segregated. We are American Citizens that are being segregated by the 1830 Indian Removal Act of War that was declared by Congress. Every treaty, legislative act & supreme court ruling; CONTINUES the original terms of the 1830 imprisonment by renegotiating this hostage situation with the 564 Tribal Counsels that use - us & our children living on the Rez or Not.

http://forums.fingerlakes1.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1174351&page=0
1959 IRS Ruling Trust for NONCOMPETENT INDIANS conversation with Lee Ann Ragains

The 1887 Dawes & 1906 Burke Acts limited the Trust Responsibility to END 25 yrs after the Reservation Lands were allotted. Which means the Burke Act should've ENDED in 1931. Except, the 1924 Citizenship Act should have ENDED the Illegal Trust and the Illegal War Power of the Secretary as our Trustee.

President Obama must issue the Executive Order for an Emancipation Proclamation to END the Trust Responsibility by releasing the Land & Money that is illegally being held by the Secretary of the DOI because;

The 1830 Indian Removal Act of War is over.

1924 American Indians are Competent Equal Citizens of the United States

1954 Segregation is unconstitutional

IF President Obama does NOT Emancipate the 564 Federally Recognized Tribes and their members from the Secretary of the DOI & BIA Trust Responsibility then President Obama endorses;

Civil Rights Violations against American Indians

Ethnic Profiling for Illegal Segregations of the 564 Federally Recognized Tribes, their members & potential members

FTC Anti-trust Violations

and

Tax Evasion that continues WITHOUT a competency hearing as Land is held in Trust for Incompetent Indians


Every Federally Recognized Tribe has Land that is being held in the Trust as a Tribe and for Individuals that were allotted lands = They Do Not have to pay Taxes or comply with State Laws because they are Not Competent. (see 1959 IRS Ruling for Incompetent Indians)

A Competency Hearing - has never been held - to justify the Illegal Trust Responsibility to hold the lands in a Trust nor to appoint the Secretary of the DOI as our Trustee.

Therefore, the 564 Federally recognized tribes and their members are Incompetent and their children will never be Competent. That is why the DOI/BIA says "These Incompetent Dependent Federally Recognized Indians aren't smart enough to enter into a business contract on their own so the DOI Secretary, BIA, Senate Committee on Indian Affairs will have to approve all transactions between Incompetent Tribes & Dependent Individual Indians to do any business with rest of America."

Unless they have a State Compact, Oklahoma Tribes are only required to pay 50% of the taxes on their Total Profits because the rest of the 50% of the taxable income is held in the Trust for those Incompetent Dependent Indians - that do not have to pay taxes - because of the Illegal declaration of Incompetence. see the video of the NewsOK interview: "It’s still growing,” state Treasurer Scott Meacham said. "We don’t know where it’s going to top out at.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahomas-gaming-share-grows/article/3383749#ixzz0n5zmr2CT

"Oklahoma’s 29 gaming tribes contributed nearly $106 million to the state in fiscal year 2009, according to the Office of State Finance. That figure was about $81 million the previous year."

The Secretary of the Interior has been Illegally appointed to be the Special Trustee with the Illegal responsibility to hold land & money in a Trust for Illegally declared Incompetent Indians.

Emancipation of the Tribes & their members & potential members would mean, that in a Gambling State, COMPETENT American Citizens must comply with all City, County, State & Federal Laws.

Thank you for helping us to be equal, LeeAnnRagains.com
Posted by: LeeAnnRagains

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/24/10 12:46 AM

In 1788 Alexander Hamilton addressed New York’s ratifying convention for the approval of the United States Constitution:

Q - “What reasonable man, for the precarious enjoyment of rank and power, would establish a system which would reduce his nearest friends and his posterity to slavery and ruin?”


A - The Office of Indian Affairs Is Created
http://crm.cr.nps.gov/archive/22-4/22-04-13.pdf

These superintendents and agents, plus other personnel within the United States War Department assigned to deal with Indian matters, reported to the Secretary of War. They were not, however, organized as a unit until 1824, when Secretary of War John C. Calhoun administratively established an Office of Indian Affairs. It was not until 1834 that Congress formally created the Indian Department within the War Department. In 1849, Congress transferred the Indian Department, which became the BIA, to the newly created Department of the Interior.
The War Department created the BIA in 1824. Congress declared War to remove and annihilate the American Indians, language & culture with the Indian Removal Act of war in 1830.

The 564 Federally Recognized American Indian Reservations, is 150-year example of what happens to people when their Freedom of Choice is taken away by the federal government and they are expected to be dependent on the government thru segregation & separate but equal welfare entitlements.

The rationing of food commodities and rationing of health care began because our ancestors were Prisoners of War, the 1830 Indian Removal Act of War. Prisoners are Wards of the Government – exactly like today – inmates in a Prison are in the “custody” of the Dept of Corrections – they have been convicted of a crime they are not allowed to vote and the ration of food and the ration of health care is adequate for a criminal in Prison. When an Individual Indian or Tribe is required to ask permission from the BIA confirms they are NOT SOVEREIGN – we are incompetent dependents.

Q - In these last 150 yrs, what areas across our country provides a glimpse of what will become of the United States of America – IF – these Destructive Federal Policies and Abuse of War Power is allowed to continue?

A - http://www.leeannragains.com/lee%20ann%2...ington%20dc.htm

The poverty of America’s federally recognized Indian Reservations is an example of the bureaucracy of too much government and what happens to people when the Federal government unilaterally declares people incompetent without a competency hearing because of the ethnic origin of their parents.

Today the 2,700 page Health Care Reform Bill is trying to unilaterally declare every American Citizen incompetent. Meaning; you are not smart enough to take care of yourself so the U.S. government will impose these health insurance mandates under the penalty of fines and or imprisonment. This Bill will add at least 50 more government agencies of bureaucracy with insurance premiums already increasing by thirty-nine percent (39%).


Q - Why are the individual tribe member lands held in the Trust Responsibility of the Secretary of the DOI and controlled by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Tribal counsel & Senate Committee on Indian Affairs?

A - http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/juris/j0210_47.sgml

B-5100, SEPTEMBER 12, 1939, 19 COMP. GEN. 343
INDIAN AFFAIRS - INDIANS - PAYMENTS TO INDIAN AGENCY SUPERINTENDENTS OF MONEYS DUE - ONCOMPETENT," "INCOMPETENT," AND "RESTRICTED" INDIANS DISTINGUISHED

5th & 6th paragraphs
ACCORDING TO THE RECORD BEFORE US, JAMES SEELATSEE APPARENTLY WAS AN ADULT AT THE TIME OF HIS DEATH; THEREFORE, THE ONLY QUESTION REQUIRING FURTHER COMMENT IS WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS IN FACT AN INCOMPETENT INDIAN. THE ACTING COMPTROLLER GENERAL'S OPINION OF AUGUST 3, 1925 (5 COMP. GEN. 86), IS PERTINENT. THE SAME READS IN PART AS FOLLOWS:

"* * * IT MAY BE STATED AS A GENERAL RULE THAT THE GRANTING OF CITIZENSHIP TO INDIANS DOES NOT ALTER THE RELATIONSHIP OF GUARDIAN AND WARD BETWEEN SUCH INDIANS AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN A CASE WHERE PROPERTY IS HELD IN TRUST FOR THEM, OR THEY ARE LIVING ON A RESERVATION SET ASIDE FOR THEIR USE, OR ARE MEMBERS OF A TRIBE OR NATION ACCORDED CERTAIN RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES BY TREATY OR BY FEDERAL STATUTES.

9th paragraph
AN "INCOMPETENT" INDIAN MEANS, AS UNDERSTOOD BY THIS DEPARTMENT, A PERSON NOT DECLARED INCOMPETENT BY A COURT, BUT AN INDIAN WHOSE LAND IS HELD BY HIM SUBJECT TO TRUST OR RESTRICTIONS UNDER SOME ACT OF CONGRESS. UNTIL A PATENT IN FEE OR CERTIFICATE OF COMPETENCY IS ISSUED BY THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, AN INDIAN, REGARDLESS OF HIS MENTALITY, IS NOT "COMPETENT" WITH REGARD TO HIS RESTRICTED OR TRUST ALLOTMENT. ADJUDICATIONS BY STATE COURTS, WITH SOME POSSIBLE EXCEPTIONS AS TO THE OSAGE RESERVATION AND THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, OF THE INCOMPETENCY OF INDIANS HAVE NO EFFECT UPON THEIR RESTRICTED OR TRUST REAL AND PERSONAL ESTATES.


The U.S. Department of the Interior acts as an Oppressive Trustee in favor of the Casino reservation stereotype, segregation and the discriminatory system of the “Separate but Equal” BIA policies and programs. The Tribal Counsel, through Casino Gambling, preys on each individual to squander their income and gamble with their children’s future. The term “The house always wins” means “Everybody is a loser”.

This solution is Positive & Simple; End the Trust Responsibility and Abolish Federal Indian Policy and every awful legislative act of the Secretary of the Dept of the Interior THEN we will no longer be segregated.

Please help send a Post Card for Freedom & make a Phone Call for Freedom
1) President Obama MUST issue an Executive Order to "end the trust responsibility of the DOI/BIA over the 564 recognized American Indian tribes and their members.
2) Transfer the BIA (personnel, clinics and hospitals) back to the Bureau of Veteran's Affairs and Defense to improve these same serves for our veterans and troops.
3) End Affirmative Action quota's and ethnic profiling questions of "ethnic origin" on all forms, applications and the Census. We must be allowed to compete as equal American citizens.


The unlimited access to tax payer money based on these issues of; Affirmative Action for preference, Ethnic Profiling for Segregation and separate but equal welfare entitlements are only SYMPTOMS of this National Crisis that has plagued our status as American Citizens.

In his first inaugural address President Abraham Lincoln said "We must not be enemies" at that time he had no intention of interfering with slave-owning States. The Slaves would never rise up, sign a petition and ask the President to Free them.

Today – the Tribal members will never rise up, sign a petition and ask President Obama to Free them from the Secretary of the Dept of Interior & Destructive Federal Indian Policy.

Equality for every American Citizen is and will always be expected. We must be united as equal Citizens.

President Obama is the only President that can Free American Indians from the Secretary of the Department of the Interior's Trust Responsibility.

This solution is Positive & Simple; Protect & Defend every Citizen by Ending the illegal Trust Responsibility of the Secretary of the Dept of the Interior THEN we will no longer be Segregated.

Every treaty, legislative act & supreme court ruling; CONTINUES the original terms of the 1830 imprisonment by renegotiating this hostage situation today with the 564 Tribal Counsels that use - us & our children living on the Rez or Not.

This abuse of War Power by Congress undermines and diminishes the Sovereignty Power of; City, County, State & Federal Government.

Please help us to be equal by asking your family and friends to send a Post Card for Freedom at LeeAnnRagains.com to President Obama & all Elected Officials in your State.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/27/10 08:23 AM

redgreen did you send in your card?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/27/10 09:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich Tallcot
Posted in todays NYS Register

Department of Taxation and Finance

Sales of Cigarettes on Indian Reservations
I.D. No. TAF-27-10-00013-E

This regulatory impact statement, regulatory flexibility analysis, rural area flexibility analysis and/or job impact statement pertain(s) to a notice

NYS Register/July 21, 2010 Rule Making Activities of emergency rule making, I.D. No. TAF-27-10-00013-E, printed in the State Register on July 7, 2010.

Regulatory Impact Statement

1. Statutory authority: Tax Law, sections 171, subdivision First; 471, subdivisions (1), (4), and (5); 471 e; and 475 (not subdivided). Section 171, subdivision First provides general authority for the Commissioner of Taxation and Finance to make reasonable rules and regulations that may be necessary for the exercise of the Commissioner's powers and the performance of his or her duties under the Tax Law. Section 471(1) imposes the tax on cigarettes, including all cigarettes sold on an Indian reservation to non-members of the Indian nation or tribe and to non-Indians, and provides for a dual system to ensure that adequate quantities of stamped but tax exempt cigarettes are available for purchase by the nation or tribe and its members for their use or consumption based on their probable demand. Section 471-e establishes the "Indian tax exemption coupon system" which Indian nations or tribes may elect to participate in to obtain such tax exempt cigarettes. Section 471(5) provides that for any year that this election is not made, the "prior approval" system will be used. Section 471(4) provides that cigarette stamping agents must provide their suppliers and the department with a certification, under penalty of perjury, that cigarettes will not be resold in violation of Article 20 of the Tax Law, which imposes the cigarette tax. Section 475 authorizes the Commissioner specifically to administer the tax on cigarettes imposed under Article 20 of the Tax Law.


9. Federal standards: This rule does not exceed any minimum standards of the federal government for the same or similar subject areas.

10. Compliance schedule: The rule took effect on June 22, 2010, the date that the Notice of Emergency Adoption was filed, and applies to all cigarettes sold on or after September 1, 2010.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/28/10 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Tallcot
Terrorism - cigarettes and reservations

I understand Senator Nozzolio wasn't aware of the connections between cigarettes, New York State Indian reservations and funding terrorist activities.

Maybe he's afraid of being attacked by the tribes like Assemblyman Dave Townsend was when he exposed the connection. Or maybe he just didn't know. But he didn't ask. I'll be sure to supply his office with the material.

Maybe these will help.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN
SOUTHERN DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
http://news.lp.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/akhdar/usakhdar103ind.pdf
STATEMENT OF ATTORNEY GENERAL JOHN ASHCROFT:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/March/04_ag_141.htm
Tobacco and Terror:
How Cigarette Smuggling is Funding our Enemies Abroad
http://chs-republicans.house.gov/list/press/homeland_rep/morenews/cigarettesmuggling.pdf

To those that heard or read my presentation at the press conference, I stated "Reservation cigarettes have funneled counterfeit name brands from China, funded terrorist groups, driven hundreds of competitors with thousands of jobs out of business and the loss of these taxes continues to drive property taxes higher."

I did not state that the tribes were fronting terrorist groups. But cigarettes from reservations have. There have been Indians and non-Indians on reservations shielded in their businesses by tribal sovereignty preventing them from being apprehended earlier than they were. They were shielded by the tribal government by restricting jurisdiction AND PRIMARILY encouraged by the State of New York by selectively enforcing the laws creating the price disparity between competitors.

So, oddly enough, our own New York State governor is supporting the terrorist groups that attacked us on 9/11 by his refusal to enforce the law. It is unfortunate that ALL our governors have been too blind to see this.

In the perspective of George Washington's time, our governor should be tried for treason by creating a situation that aids the enemy.

In today's perspective, "In accordance with the state Constitution, if the Governor refuses to do his job it would be up to the State Assembly to initiate impeachment proceedings. That is THEIR job, as much as enforcing the law is the Governor's job."

Does their refusal to do so not make them complicit accomplices?

Rich Tallcot Cayuga-Seneca UCE Chair
UCE@ROCHESTER.RR.Com

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/07/10 01:44 PM

elouise cobell to collect millions while all others see little
she acts in the same manner that she fought against
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/09/10 03:03 PM

Looks like NYS just solved their budget for this year and many years to come

imagine how much the tribes owe NYS.......

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Originally Posted By: Rich Tallcot
1 2 3 another one bites the dust

The Oneida Indian land claim filed in 1974 finally goes down in flames. No land, no money. Their casino sits on state sovereign fee simple property and they no longer have a land claim in which to make a settlement. The casino was ruled unconstitutional several years ago in a lawsuit filed by UCE.

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT

Decided: August 9, 2010

ONEIDA INDIAN NATION OF NEW YORK, ONEIDA TRIBE OF INDIANS OF WISCONSIN, ONEIDA OF THE THAMES,

Plaintiffs-Appellees-Cross-Appellants,

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Intervenor-Plaintiff-Appellee-Cross-Appellant,

-v.-

COUNTY OF ONEIDA, COUNTY OF MADISON,

Defendants-Cross-Appellees,

STATE OF NEW YORK,

Defendant-Appellant-Cross-Appellee.


Based on the Supreme Court's decision in Sherrill, Cayuga had previously determined that equitable defenses apply to "disruptive" Indian land claims, and that possessory claims - claims premised on the assertion of a continuing right to possession of ancient tribal lands - are by their nature disruptive, in that they call into question settled land titles.

New York contends, in addition, that its sovereign immunity bars the contract-based claim on which the district court permitted the Oneidas to proceed.

For the reasons articulated below, we conclude that the district court correctly determined that Cayuga is controlling here, and that all claims dependent on the assertion of a current possessory interest in the subject lands are barred by equitable defenses. We further conclude, however, that the purportedly nonpossessory claim identified by that court is also barred, both by New York's sovereign immunity and by the equitable principles applied in Cayuga. In light of Cayuga's holding that equitable defenses apply to disruptive Indian land claims, we finally conclude that the alternative nonpossessory claim articulated on appeal by the plaintiffs, premised on a violation of the Nonintercourse Act, is also barred.


For the foregoing reasons, we conclude that all claims raised by the plaintiffs in this action, whether possessory or purportedly nonpossessory, are subject to and barred by the defense recognized in Sherrill and Cayuga. The Oneidas' contract-based claim is further barred by New York's sovereign immunity. For this reason, the judgment of the district court is AFFIRMED as to the dismissal of plaintiffs' possessory claims, and REVERSED with respect to plaintiffs' nonpossessory claims. The case is REMANDED to the district court for the entry of judgment and the resolution of any pending motions.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/10/10 12:04 PM

;\)
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/10/10 01:02 PM

"Monday’s court ruling will likely have little effect on any Oneida Nation properties or businesses, including the sprawling Turning Stone Resort & Casino complex in Verona. The New York Oneida tribe owns outright 17,000 acres, having bought parcels on the open market since the early 1990s"

"Monday’s decision also doesn’t stop the Oneidas from buying more land later."

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/appeals_court_dismisses_oneida.html
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/10/10 05:01 PM

taxes due
all NYS laws apply
the casino is illegal and cannot be put into trust
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/11/10 03:14 AM

yes they may pay taxes now.... but do really think Paterson will shut that *cash cow* down?? Just look at all the tourism they just brought in for the Golf Tournament. Also all winnings over $1200 have been taxable since the casino opened, also now that they have a liquor license they have been paying food and drink taxes already so not much will change. Also I could care less about their Sav-On gas stations because they are only 2-3 cents cheaper and that is only if you pay cash...credit is usually almost the same price as taxed stations
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/11/10 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
but do really think Paterson will shut that *cash cow* down??


the county can if property taxes are not paid
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/13/10 01:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
"This has been a problem for 30-years and what we think we're going to do is look at our department of taxation in terms of creating a way in which those who do business with those entities will not get, in other words, cooperation from New York state. Because it's killing our small businesses ," Governor Paterson said.





Paterson is it not you KILLING small businesses

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/19/10 10:58 AM

Cuomo Says He Will Enforce Tax Laws
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/19/10 11:13 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
The New York Oneida tribe owns outright 17,000 acres, having bought parcels on the open market since the early 1990s


all with ILLEGAL money

state/county can seize it
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/23/10 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Also I could care less about their Sav-On gas stations because they are only 2-3 cents cheaper and that is only if you pay cash...credit is usually almost the same price as taxed stations


just refuse to pay their "sales tax"
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/03/10 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
"This has been a problem for 30-years and what we think we're going to do is look at our department of taxation in terms of creating a way in which those who do business with those entities will not get, in other words, cooperation from New York state. Because it's killing our small businesses ," Governor Paterson said.


get it done
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/14/10 03:59 PM

court rules tribes must pay taxes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/15/10 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

State Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican and a member of the committee on investigations and government operations, said during Tuesday's hearing that the time for negotiating is over. He said he favors a "drop dead" date, to start charging the tax whether the tribes agreed to it or not.

Wagging his finger at Indians in the audience, he said the U.S. victory over the British during the Revolutionary War gave the government the right to tax its citizens, and he suggested that the tribes benefited from state health, education and public works programs and should therefore be required to pay the same taxes.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/29/10 01:42 PM

WAMPSVILLE -- Madison County Attorney John Campanie briefed the Board of Supervisor's Native American Affairs Committee Tuesday on the latest court activity in cases against the Oneida Indian Nation.

Among the multiple cases the county has filed against the Nation, it is also keeping tabs on litigation over the state’s implementation on cigarette tax. Campanie reported that the Nation will be seen in court Friday in the injunction case. According to Campanie the state has requested that the Oneida’s and similar tribal lawsuits be consolidated.

In the county’s land claim case against the Nation, the county is waiting for a response from the federal government. After the second circuit court ruled in favor of the county, the Nation and federal government were given the opportunity to appeal the case. Both have requested a time extension that will last until Oct. 22. Campanie said they can seek to have the second circuit court of appeals hear the case again or make an application to the Supreme Court to hear the case.

In the county’s foreclosure case, Campanie said a decision on its Supreme Court petition could be made as soon as Oct. 8. Campanie said previous foreclosure cases, like Sherrill and Cayuga have established the second circuit court as a “well respected panel.”

“The work that we have been doing for a decade now has resulted in the dismissal of all the land claims pending,” he said.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/06/10 11:05 AM

shut em down.....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/07/10 07:28 AM

Gov. Paterson threatens to nix Seneca Indians casino deal
News Wire Services

Thursday, October 7th 2010, 4:00 AM

B. Smith for NewsGov. David Paterson Related NewsQuit betting on the nagEditorial: On the wrong trackOff-Track Betting pink slips 1,300 workersPaterson sees new Aqueduct racino plan within one monthBad bet for New YorkWhat are they hiding?Gov. Paterson is threatening to spike the deal that allows the Seneca Indians to operate three casinos - because the tribe is withholding payments to the state.

In a letter to Seneca President Barry Snyder, Paterson's top lawyer, Peter Kiernan, said the Senecas owe $105.5 million from 2009 and $109 million for 2010.

The letter requests a meeting within 14 days to negotiate a solution.

"Otherwise," the letter said, "... the state will commence arbitration and seek a finding of material breach."
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/10 05:56 AM

"Otherwise," the letter said, "... the state will commence arbitration and seek a finding of material breach."

Good...cut the State out of the equation totally and allow the Seneca's to keep ALL the profit.... the only thing they will lose is their liquor license if the state pulls out LOL

P.S. The *supposed* "illegal casino"(turning stone) is STILL open ;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/10 09:17 AM

NYS just needs to change the law
Posted by: skipper68

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/10 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Gov. Paterson threatens to nix Seneca Indians casino deal
News Wire Services

Thursday, October 7th 2010, 4:00 AM

B. Smith for NewsGov. David Paterson Related NewsQuit betting on the nagEditorial: On the wrong trackOff-Track Betting pink slips 1,300 workersPaterson sees new Aqueduct racino plan within one monthBad bet for New YorkWhat are they hiding?Gov. Paterson is threatening to spike the deal that allows the Seneca Indians to operate three casinos - because the tribe is withholding payments to the state.

In a letter to Seneca President Barry Snyder, Paterson's top lawyer, Peter Kiernan, said the Senecas owe $105.5 million from 2009 and $109 million for 2010.

The letter requests a meeting within 14 days to negotiate a solution.

"Otherwise," the letter said, "... the state will commence arbitration and seek a finding of material breach."
:) Must be this information was forgotten: A letter was sent to the governor, 2 years ago,saying that the state had VIOLATED (broken) the exclusivity clause in their gambling compact by putting slot machines,at the racino,and a game called Moxie Mania in the bars. The state was informed that it jeopardized the states ability to receive state contribution payments. Always 2 sides to the story. Now another legal battle will begin,costing the states another ton of taxpayers money. OTOH,keeping the politicians,and lawyers employed.P.S. The treatys say the nations can not sell alcohol The casino has a subcontractor,whom is licensed by the state.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/10 10:09 AM

do you have the exact wording in the compact?
Posted by: skipper68

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/10 01:16 PM

The article you quoted had that information published with it. It wasn't quoted tho. Thought the whole article should be in. links http://www.bia.gov//FAQs/index.htm - -The link will tell you why the tribes are granted the status they are. While your there,you can wander and find the upgraded recognition of the Seneca/Cayugas. Their is a second "digital" link to the treaties on the page. second link has the treaties. Hopefully,this will educate others who have all these questions,that have been asked for the past decade.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/08/10 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By: skipper68
second link has the treaties.


then you should be able to provide facts to your 'claims'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/10 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: dwarren
Judge Arcara denied the Seneca and Cayuga Indian Nation's motion for a preliminary injunction and granted an extension of the restraining order pending appeal.

From: [url]http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/courts/article220128.ece[/url]


U.S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara on Thursday extended indefinitely his ban on state taxation of cigarette sales by the Seneca Nation and other Indian tribes.

But it was not a complete victory for the Senecas and their supporters.

In one of two rulings, Arcara extended a temporary restraining order that prevents the state from collecting taxes on cigarette sales by Indian-owned businesses to non-Indians.

The temporary order, which the judge initially issued during the summer, had been scheduled to end today.

Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.

The judge also voiced concerns about public safety if he does not extend the order. He said he is concerned about the threat of violence by Indian protesters if the taxation begins.

While his extension of the temporary restraining order is good news for Indian tribes, Arcara also filed a second order in which he turned down some of the arguments that Indian tribes have presented to fight off taxation.

He said lawyers for the Seneca Nation and the Cayuga Indians have "failed to demonstrate a likelihood of success" on their claims that the state taxation plan is unconstitutional.

Previous decisions in federal courts "make clear that the [Indian tribes'] right to tribal self-government is not impeded by New York's decision to impose a tax-collection duty on sales by Indian retailers to non-members," Arcara wrote, "even if that decision carries with it the inevitable consequence that the [tribes'] coffers will suffer as a result of lost cigarette sales."

While Seneca Nation leaders and protesters publicly insist that the state's taxation efforts violate Indian treaties, that argument has not been advanced by the tribe's lawyers in the litigation before him, Arcara said.

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.

"This point is significant. New York estimates that of the 10 million cartons [of cigarettes] sold last year by [Seneca] retailers, less than 70,000 were purchased by Seneca Nation members for their own personal consumption. Under [previous federal court rulings], the vast majority of sales made by reservation retailers are taxable," the judge wrote.

Arcara said he has already been informed by Seneca and Cayuga lawyers that they would appeal his ruling.

In his view, he wrote, the best course of action is to extend his temporary restraining order while a higher court hears legal arguments on the controversial case.



time to stop using the lame 'broken treaties' scam....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/10 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



....meaning no federal reservations in NYS
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/19/10 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



then the tribes need to stop fighting this and be a good neighbor
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/22/10 12:59 PM

play both sides of the fence

what treaty was this a part of?

ask your 'government' for some money....lol



"The United States Department of Agriculture has agreed to pay $680 million in damages to thousands of Native American farmers who say they were denied farm loans
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/25/10 08:17 AM

the tribe is the one breaking the laws/treaties

the judge ruled against you

seneca tribe protests NYS collecting cig tax
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/27/10 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



now the tribe wants to 'deal'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/28/10 08:23 AM


HOGANSBURG — The St. Regis Mohawk Tribe's proposal to send gaming revenues directly to north country communities is illegal, according to the governor.

Gov. David A. Paterson's lawyer, Peter J. Kiernan, sent a letter to the tribe informing them that doing so would violate state finance law and the gaming compact that was signed in 1993. The letter should have been delivered by today, state officials said.

"At its most basic level, the compact is an agreement between us and the tribe," said Morgan W. Hook, spokesman for Mr. Paterson. "We give them exclusive rights and they pay us. If they're not paying us, it's a violation of the compact at its most basic level."

Since the Akwesasne Mohawk Casino opened in 1999, the tribe has been sharing a portion of its revenues with the state, which then redistributes part of that to St. Lawrence and Franklin Counties, as well as the towns of Brasher, Massena, Fort Covington and Bombay. The state has to approve how the money will be used locally, according to state finance law.

Earlier this month, tribal Chief Mark H. Garrow said the state violated the tribe's exclusive right to operate slot machines in a six-county area, though he refused to identify where the alleged slots are located.

The tribe has told Albany officials only that the alleged gaming operation is in Clinton County, but the compact says that violations must be stated explicitly.

"The tribe has not informed the state of a gaming operation in Clinton County that violates the Indian exclusivity granted to the tribe," the letter said. "For whatever reason, the tribe has refused to state publicly where the purported illegal gaming operation is located."

The tribe's exclusivity agreement includes Clinton, Essex, Franklin, Hamilton, Jefferson and St. Lawrence counties.

None of the three chiefs on the Tribal Council could be reached for comment.

The letter says state officials hope to meet with the tribe to start negotiations within five days of tribal council receiving the letter. Otherwise, the state will seek arbitration. Without an agreement, the gaming compact could be terminated, which would result in the casino's closure. A state official who declined to be identified said that outcome is not likely. Mr. Garrow has vowed that the casino will remain open.

The Seneca Tribe is also trying to cut the state out of its gaming compact agreement over a dispute about video games in bars. The Senecas began discussions with the state last week, according to Mr. Hook.

The Mohawks have said that their move has nothing to do with the Senecas and both tribes deny that this dispute has anything to do with Albany's efforts to collect state taxes on cigarettes sold to non-natives on Indian reservations.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/06/10 12:21 PM

close them down
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/10 01:18 AM

Quote:
Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.


I wonder what he thinks about the irreparable injury that thousands of non-Indian smoke shop workers have received, or will receive, by losing jobs due to unfair competition.
Posted by: twocats

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/10 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: skipper68


Good, informative link. Thank you.

Because the Constitution vested the Legislative Branch with plenary power over Indian Affairs, states have no authority over tribal governments unless expressly authorized by Congress. While federally recognized tribes generally are not subordinate to states, they can have a government-to-government relationship with these other sovereigns, as well.

Seems clear to me.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/10 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: skipper68


Good, informative link. Thank you.

Because the Constitution vested the Legislative Branch with plenary power over Indian Affairs, states have no authority over tribal governments unless expressly authorized by Congress. While federally recognized tribes generally are not subordinate to states, they can have a government-to-government relationship with these other sovereigns, as well.

Seems clear to me.


you may want to read your link as seen below - there are no federal reservations in NYS

Are there other types of “Indian lands”?
Yes. Other types of Indian lands are:

State Indian reservations, which are lands held in trust by a state for an Indian tribe. With state trust lands title is held by the state on behalf of the tribe and the lands are not subject to state property tax. They are subject to state law, however. State trust lands stem from treaties or other agreements between a tribal group and the state government or the colonial government(s) that preceded it.
American Indian and Alaska Native tribes, businesses, and individuals may also own land as private property. In such cases, they are subject to state and local laws, regulations, codes, and taxation.

Are American Indians and Alaska Natives citizens of the United States?
Yes. As early as 1817, U.S. citizenship had been conferred by special treaty upon specific groups of Indian people. American citizenship was also conveyed by statutes, naturalization proceedings, and by service in the Armed Forces with an honorable discharge in World War I. In 1924, Congress extended American citizenship to all other American Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States. American Indians and Alaska Natives are citizens of the United States and of the individual states, counties, cities, and towns where they reside. They can also become citizens of their tribes or villages as enrolled tribal members.

Do laws that apply to non-Indians also apply to Indians?
Yes. As U.S. citizens, American Indians and Alaska Natives are generally subject to federal, state, and local laws.
On federal Indian reservations, however, only federal and tribal laws apply to members of the tribe, unless Congress provides otherwise. In federal law, the Assimilative Crimes Act makes any violation of state criminal law a federal offense on reservations. Most tribes now maintain tribal court systems and facilities to detain tribal members convicted of certain offenses within the boundaries of the reservation.

Seems clear to me.

NYS could use the Assimilative Crimes Act against the illegal cig sales




skipper68 posted that link in the cayuga county 'more tribal news' and he was shown his errors in reading the link
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/10 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.


I wonder what he thinks about the irreparable injury that thousands of non-Indian smoke shop workers have received, or will receive, by losing jobs due to unfair competition.


the business owners of the tax paying businesses have also suffered along with the workers
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/10 09:40 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Gov. Paterson threatens to nix Seneca Indians casino deal
News Wire Services

Thursday, October 7th 2010, 4:00 AM

B. Smith for NewsGov. David Paterson is threatening to spike the deal that allows the Seneca Indians to operate three casinos - because the tribe is withholding payments to the state.

In a letter to Seneca President Barry Snyder, Paterson's top lawyer, Peter Kiernan, said the Senecas owe $105.5 million from 2009 and $109 million for 2010.

The letter requests a meeting within 14 days to negotiate a solution.

"Otherwise," the letter said, "... the state will commence arbitration and seek a finding of material breach."


the tribe has illegally sold far more in illegal cigs then has been lost from their competing gaming operations

NYS should seek all the money from the illegal cig sales
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/07/10 12:56 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.


I wonder what he thinks about the irreparable injury that thousands of non-Indian smoke shop workers have received, or will receive, by losing jobs due to unfair competition.


the business owners of the tax paying businesses have also suffered along with the workers


Of course they do; I was narrowly responding to Arcara's wording simply in the interest of clear sarcastic contrast.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/08/10 06:22 AM

not sure how a judge can make a ruling that goes against the law

should drug dealers be allowed to continue to sell drugs due to 'irreparable injury' if they are locked in jail - the judges ruling goes against common sense
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/08/10 03:53 PM

Democrat Andrew Cuomo, who currently serves as attorney general, supports the state's effort to impose a tobacco tax on reservations. "I look forward to enforcing the law. I think it's been a long time coming," he told The Buffalo News.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/09/10 08:46 AM

when can we vote in the tribal elections?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/09/10 09:19 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Have we forgot?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/11/10 07:00 AM

Ruling favors NY in Indian smokeshop tax fight

By CAROLYN THOMPSON
The Associated Press
Wednesday, November 10, 2010; 12:34 PM

BUFFALO, N.Y. -- A federal judge has sided with New York in the latest ruling in a dispute over the state's plans to tax most Indian reservation smokeshop sales, but collection of the tax is on hold for now.

U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara in Buffalo denied a request to block the state from collecting a sales tax on cigarettes sold to non-Indians. But he froze his decision so the two tribes who sought the order can appeal.

Arcara's ruling Tuesday in a case brought by the Unkechaug and St. Regis Mohawk tribes mirrors an earlier decision in a challenge by the Seneca and Cayuga nations.

The decisions mean New York still can't start collecting the $4.35-per-pack sales tax until a higher court, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, hears the issue.

It's unknown how long the appeals process will take.

In all, five New York tribes are challenging the state's decision to require cigarette wholesalers to prepay the sales taxes before supplying reservation stores. Wholesalers would pass along the levy to tribal retailers, who would have to raise their prices.

The cash-starved state anticipates $200 million a year in revenue from the tax. The tribes argue the regulations would interfere with their rights of tribal sovereignty, make it hard for members to buy tax-free cigarettes and devastate tribal economies that depend on the sale of lower-priced cigarettes to fund programs and services.

In denying a preliminary injunction to the Unkechaugs of Long Island and St. Regis Mohawks of northern New York, Arcara said that, like the Senecas and Cayugas of western New York, the tribes had not demonstrated a likelihood of success on the merits of their claims, a requirement for issuing such an order.

But Arcara did acknowledge that the Indian nations would be harmed by the ruling and so issued a stay halting collection of the new tax pending appeal.

The state immediately appealed the stay.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/11/10 09:06 AM

Ruling favors NY in Indian smokeshop tax fight


Why post this here too..... Also how does it Favor NYS when the decision is frozen and they CAN NOT collect taxes until the appeals are held and the decision can be over turned

Nice spin..... the decision means SQUAT because cigs are STILL tax free and will be for a loooong time!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 07:08 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
BUFFALO, N.Y. -- A federal judge has sided with New York in the latest ruling
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 07:11 AM

Editorial: Cayuga Nation can't have it both ways on tobacco taxes
Monday 2010


"We find it curious that the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York has joined in the legal fight against the implementation of a system that would allow the state to collect taxes on sales of cigarettes to non-Indian consumers while preserving tribal members’ rights to purchase them tax-free.

The Cayugas are saying that the whole concept of taxation is a violation of their sovereignty, and they add that being required to collect taxes on non-tribal sales would destroy their business. They no longer seem to care about the existence of a state taxation regulatory system that would preserve tax-free purchases for tribal members by using coupons or a pre-determined tax-free allotment to each tribe.

This system just came into place this summer when Gov. David Paterson finally realized that it was time to level the playing field for non-Indian retailers and begin collecting these taxes. The lack of a coupon system or something similar is what had led to a court injunction preventing collection before.

Prior to Paterson’s Sept. 1 plan being announced, the Cayugas had clung to the lack of a coupon system as the reason its officials couldn’t be prosecuted by Cayuga and Seneca counties for tax evasion.

“If the county makes up a system involving two piles of cigarettes, the only way to determine how many untaxed cigarettes the store can sell will have to involve coupons of some type,” national attorney Lee Alcott told an appellate court in April 2009. “So everything comes back to the state and (its) tax department’s policy of forbearance.”


so why are the cayugas fighting NYS if they blamed NYS for not collectioning the taxes?


it is not the tribe 'paying' the taxes but the cigarette buyers


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 07:14 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com

Nice spin..... the decision means SQUAT because cigs are STILL tax free and will be for a loooong time!


must be why the tribes met for the first time in 200 years
not about land, not about culture, not about casinos but about NYS enforcing the laws on the books
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 07:40 AM

Reply before November 22, 2010


http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net/

LATEST UPDATES

Final Environmental Impact Statement Now Complete

The Bureau of Indian Affairs has completed the Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) for the fee-to-trust application for the Cayuga Indian Nation (CIN). The notice of availability of the FEIS was published in the Federal Register on October 22, 2010.



The next step in the process is the issuance of the Record of Decision (ROD) which is the document that will be used to issue the Department of the Interior’s determination on whether to grant or deny CIN's applications for land to be taken into trust. The ROD may be issued either by the Secretary of the Department of the Interior or its designee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The ROD cannot be issued until 30 days after the FEIS is issued, which is November 22, 2010 (November 21st is a weekend day so the first day it could be published is November 22).



As set forth in the referenced notice published in the Federal Register, comments on the FEIS may be submitted but need to be received by Monday, November 22. Comments should be directed to:



Franklin Keel
Regional Director, Eastern Regional Office
Bureau of Indian Affairs
545 Marriott Drive
Suite 700
Nashville, Tennessee 37214
Fax: 615-564-6701

Copies of the FEIS are available for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:
Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Lakeside Trading
299 Cayuga Street
Union Springs, NY 13160

Seneca Falls Library
47 Cayuga Street
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Springport Free Library
171 Cayuga Street
P. O. Box 501
Union Springs, NY 13160



Cayuga and Seneca Counties provided a substantial number of comments to the DEIS as referenced in the FEIS.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 07:49 AM

Related Cigarette Tax Cases

The New York Association of Convenience Stores has filed amici briefs in the Seneca Nation and Oneida Nation lawsuits against New York's latest attempt to collect taxes on the sale of tobacco products to non-Indians. A brief was also filed on behalf of the Association in the Seneca Nation's lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the PACT Act, which prevents the mail order of cigarettes.

Seneca Nation v. Paterson. Memorandum of Law of Amici Curiae: New York Association of Convenience Stores, Wilson Farms, Inc., and NOCO Energy Corp. in support of defendants' opposition to plaintiff's motion for temporary restraining order or preliminary injunction.

Seneca Nation and Cayuga Nation v. Paterson. Post-Hearing Supplemental Memorandum of Law of Amici Curiae: New York Association of Convenience Stores, Wilson Farms, Inc., and NOCO Energy Corp. in support of defendants' opposition to plaintiff's motion for preliminary injunction.

Oneida Nation v. Paterson. Memordandum of Law of Amicus Curiae: New York Association of Convenience Stores in support of defendants' opposition to plaintiff's motion for preliminary injunction.

Red Earth LLC v. United States of America, et. al. Brief of Amici Curiae: National Association of Convenience Stores and New York Association of Convenience Stores in opposition to motions for preliminary injunctive relief.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 07:51 AM


The City of New York is pursuing similar cigarette tax litigation against eastern Long Island Indians selling untaxed cigarettes to non-Native Americans (City of New York v. Golden Feather Smoke Shop). The federal district court held that the sales of massive quantities of nontaxed cigarettes to bootleggers who then resell them to non-Native Americans throughout the metropolitan area, violates the New York Tax Law. The Court enjoined further sales of untaxed cigarettes. The Long Island Indians appealed to the federal appeals court in New York City and asked to stay the injunction pending the appeal. On October 15, 2009, the federal appeals court denied the stay. This means the injunction prohibiting the untaxed sales to non-Native Americans remains in place while the appeals proceed. The federal court now has the opportunity to certify questions to the New York State Court of Appeals on the application of the Tax Law § 471 and § 471-e. If the federal appellate court does so, this raises the possibility that the New York Court of Appeals could simultaneously have before it two different cases whose central issues involve the applicability of Tax Law § 471 (and Tax Law § 471-e) to the sale of cigarettes by Native Americans to non-Native Americans.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Reply before November 22, 2010


http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net/

LATEST UPDATES

Final Environmental Impact Statement Now Complete

The Bureau of Indian Affairs has completed the Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) for the fee-to-trust application for the Cayuga Indian Nation (CIN). The notice of availability of the FEIS was published in the Federal Register on October 22, 2010.



The next step in the process is the issuance of the Record of Decision (ROD) which is the document that will be used to issue the Department of the Interior’s determination on whether to grant or deny CIN's applications for land to be taken into trust. The ROD may be issued either by the Secretary of the Department of the Interior or its designee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The ROD cannot be issued until 30 days after the FEIS is issued, which is November 22, 2010 (November 21st is a weekend day so the first day it could be published is November 22).



As set forth in the referenced notice published in the Federal Register, comments on the FEIS may be submitted but need to be received by Monday, November 22. Comments should be directed to:



Franklin Keel
Regional Director, Eastern Regional Office
Bureau of Indian Affairs
545 Marriott Drive
Suite 700
Nashville, Tennessee 37214
Fax: 615-564-6701

Copies of the FEIS are available for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:
Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Lakeside Trading
299 Cayuga Street
Union Springs, NY 13160

Seneca Falls Library
47 Cayuga Street
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Springport Free Library
171 Cayuga Street
P. O. Box 501
Union Springs, NY 13160



Cayuga and Seneca Counties provided a substantial number of comments to the DEIS as referenced in the FEIS.


You already got one thread locked now you have to start another thread posting this info AND putting it here too!!??!! \:\/

Copies of the FEIS are available for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:
Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148


While you're at Lakeside for your copy of the FEIS, can you be a peach and get me a carton of smokes and some gas for my lawnmower??
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:07 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
You already got one thread locked now you have to start another thread posting this info AND putting it here too!!??!! \:\/


It was your pal that got it locked when proven wrong
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Copies of the FEIS are available for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:
Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148



Seneca Falls, NY............ ;\)

no res
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com

Lakeside Trading
299 Cayuga Street
Union Springs, NY 13160



Union Springs, NY......... ;\)


no res
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
You already got one thread locked now you have to start another thread posting this info AND putting it here too!!??!! \:\/


It was your pal that got it locked when proven wrong


My pal??? It was Dr. D that got it locked. Look at his post on the Mods hate thread.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Copies of the FEIS are available for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:
Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148



Seneca Falls, NY............ ;\)

no res




Who needs a Res??? they have plenty of tax free smokes and gas for all!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/12/10 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
You already got one thread locked now you have to start another thread posting this info AND putting it here too!!??!! \:\/


It was your pal that got it locked when proven wrong


My pal??? It was Dr. D that got it locked.


then why blame me?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/15/10 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Reply before November 22, 2010


http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net/

LATEST UPDATES

Final Environmental Impact Statement Now Complete

The Bureau of Indian Affairs has completed the Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) for the fee-to-trust application for the Cayuga Indian Nation (CIN). The notice of availability of the FEIS was published in the Federal Register on October 22, 2010.



The next step in the process is the issuance of the Record of Decision (ROD) which is the document that will be used to issue the Department of the Interior’s determination on whether to grant or deny CIN's applications for land to be taken into trust. The ROD may be issued either by the Secretary of the Department of the Interior or its designee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The ROD cannot be issued until 30 days after the FEIS is issued, which is November 22, 2010 (November 21st is a weekend day so the first day it could be published is November 22).



As set forth in the referenced notice published in the Federal Register, comments on the FEIS may be submitted but need to be received by Monday, November 22. Comments should be directed to:



Franklin Keel
Regional Director, Eastern Regional Office
Bureau of Indian Affairs
545 Marriott Drive
Suite 700
Nashville, Tennessee 37214
Fax: 615-564-6701

Copies of the FEIS are available for viewing at the following locations during normal business hours:
Lakeside Trading
2552 Route 89
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Lakeside Trading
299 Cayuga Street
Union Springs, NY 13160

Seneca Falls Library
47 Cayuga Street
Seneca Falls, NY 13148

Springport Free Library
171 Cayuga Street
P. O. Box 501
Union Springs, NY 13160



Cayuga and Seneca Counties provided a substantial number of comments to the DEIS as referenced in the FEIS.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/15/10 08:33 AM

U.S. Supreme Court to hear Oneida nation land case
Published: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 11:34 AM Updated: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 11:51 AM
Glenn Coin / The Post-Standard

The U.S. Supreme Court announced today it will once again hear an Oneida Indian land case.
Madison and Oneida counties, which had been thwarted in their attempts to collect taxes from the Oneida nation, tried to foreclosure on hundreds of acres of tribal land. A federal appeals court said in April that while the counties had the right to collect the taxes, tribal sovereignty prevented the counties from enforcing the law.
The counties appealed, and the court decided to hear the case.
No hearing date has been scheduled.


The high court has ruled on Oneida Indian land cases three times, most recently in 2005 when it ruled that nation land was not sovereign and thus subject to taxes.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 04:11 AM

How exactly is this news....The last sentence says it all...

"The high court has ruled on Oneida Indian land cases three times, most recently in 2005 when it ruled that nation land was not sovereign and thus subject to taxes." They can *rule* all they want but it's been 5 years and NOTHING has been done

They have already *ruled* 3 times...WHY is a 4th ruling needed. Also "The counties appealed, and the court decided to hear the case. No hearing date has been scheduled." So is the hearing gonna be the same day as your "Trucker's Rally" or "Paterson Day"???? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA LOL \:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 06:28 AM

No. 10-72
Title: Madison County, New York, et al., Petitioners
v.
Oneida Indian Nation of New York

Docketed: July 13, 2010
Lower Ct: United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
Case Nos.: (05-6408, 06-5168, 06-5515)
Decision Date: April 27, 2010
Questions Presented

~~~Date~~~ ~~~~~~~Proceedings and Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jul 9 2010 Petition for a writ of certiorari filed. (Response due August 12, 2010)
Jul 27 2010 Order extending time to file response to petition to and including September 13, 2010.
Aug 12 2010 Brief amici curiae of Town of Verona and Town of Vernon, New York filed.
Aug 12 2010 Brief amici curiae of New York, et al. filed.
Aug 12 2010 Brief amici curiae of Cayuga County and Seneca County filed.
Aug 12 2010 Brief amicus curiae of Town of Lenox, New York filed.
Aug 12 2010 Motion for leave to file amici brief filed by Citizens Equal Rights Foundation, et al.
Sep 10 2010 Brief of respondent Oneida Indian Nation of New York in opposition filed.
Sep 21 2010 Reply of petitioners Madison County, New York, et al. filed. (Distributed)
Sep 22 2010 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of October 8, 2010.
Oct 12 2010 Motion for leave to file amici brief filed by Citizens Equal Rights Foundation, et al. GRANTED. Justice Sotomayor took no part in the consideration or decision of this motion.
Oct 12 2010 Petition GRANTED. Justice Sotomayor took no part in the consideration or decision of this petition.
Nov 3 2010 The time to file the joint appendix and petitioners' brief on the merits is extended to and including December 3, 2010.
Nov 3 2010 The time within which to file respondent's brief on the merits is extended to and including January 10, 2011.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 01:10 PM

save up your $$$$ ray
scotus ruled on sherrill...... ;\)
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 02:44 PM

If the beloved Sherrill ruling that you gloat about is so good they WHY are they having to rule on it a 4th time and like I have said 100 times before.... I see how well the ruling worked.... it's now 5 years later and NOTHING has been enforced So it could be years before they get a court date and another five years for them to enforce it. So basically no matter what they rule it will be worthless
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
If the beloved Sherrill ruling that you gloat about is so good they WHY are they having to rule on it a 4th time and like I have said 100 times before.... I see how well the ruling worked.... it's now 5 years later and NOTHING has been enforced So it could be years before they get a court date and another five years for them to enforce it. So basically no matter what they rule it will be worthless
The inaction of our elected officals and our courts is destroying America and some people think it is a joke. As long as they get cheap cigs and gas they don't care. How sad.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 03:43 PM

Why blame me.... it is our elected officials that take pay-offs that allow it to happen.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/16/10 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Why blame me.... it is our elected officials that take pay-offs that allow it to happen.
Yes they are. But you are supporting the corruption without which it would not happen. Without you buying the cigs and gas there would be no payoffs, right?
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 05:29 AM

I don't buy their gas and if I were to quit buying their smokes there would be 1,000 others to take my place
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Why blame me...


you support the tribe
hope you like how ray 'rulez' you
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
I don't buy their gas and if I were to quit buying their smokes there would be 1,000 others to take my place
Then this corruption and payoffs could be stopped by you and 1,000 others who I am sure all gripe about high taxes and corrupt government officials. It never dawns on you all that you have the power to stop it.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 07:49 AM

Even if we all quit smoking and stop buying from the Indians there will STILL be high taxes and corrupt elected officials
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 08:50 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Even if we all quit smoking and stop buying from the Indians there will STILL be high taxes and corrupt elected officials
Yes but there would be less of it. We have to start somewhere.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Even if we all quit smoking and stop buying from the Indians there will STILL be high taxes and corrupt elected officials


less taxes and less corruption before the illegal cigs and illegal tribal casinos
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/10 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
recently in 2005 when it ruled that nation land was not sovereign and thus subject to taxes."


the tribe can operate above the laws but NYS complies with them

NYS could have taken back all of the oneida land outside the 32 acres and also all of the cayugas land as they have no reservation
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/01/10 11:03 AM

"You don't do things in secret unless you've got something to hide," Oneida Nation leader Ray Halbritter told The Post-Standard


the oneidas do not like another tribe having a casino in the catskills but the oneidas only reason for not having NYS close their illegal casino was "because we employ people"

thought it was about jobs or is it about the oneidas being above the laws?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/01/10 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



shut them down like any other illegal operation
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 07:11 AM

Seneca Nation: Tax talks with state resume
Diana Louise Carter • Staff writer • December 10, 2010


A Representatives of the Seneca Nation of Indians, which is at odds with New York over casino payments and cigarette sales taxes, say they're talking with state officials again.

But a spokeswoman for Gov. David Paterson said late Thursday that the two sides are at an impasse and arbitration is needed.


Originally Posted By: dwarren


In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



what is there to negotiate?

wonder if I could 'cut a deal' when my taxes are due?
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 07:24 AM

Just wondering Bluezone...how did your claim of the tribes owing 895 million at the start of this thread in July 2007 jump to 150 BILLION in 3 years 5 months.... PLEASE show me your facts!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 07:29 AM

the article was 2002

have the cig taxes not increased plus interest?
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 07:33 AM

you claim the Indians dodge 3 billion a year in cig taxes... so 3 billion times 8 years it 24 BILLION... still a very far cry from 150 BILLION even with supposed *interest* NYS doesn't even have the power to get interest....the money is already spent before they get it!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 07:40 AM

you have to go back when taxes were first placed on cigs
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 08:31 AM

I guarantee it is still nowhere near 150 billion... What was the tax on cigarettes when they were 24 cents in the machine and the penny change was in the pack cellophane??
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 12:29 PM

gas, cigs, land taking off the tax rolls, lawsuits, operating above the laws, threats of violence, state troopers expense...
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 12/10/10 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
gas, cigs, land taking off the tax rolls, lawsuits, operating above the laws, threats of violence, state troopers expense...
You forgot that more people smoke with cheap smokes available. Then they get serious illnesses and it drives up health insurance for all of us.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/12/10 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



On Oct. 12, 2010, the Supreme Court agreed to review the Oneida case.

Question presented: Whether tribal sovereign immunity from suit bars taxing authorities from foreclosing to collect lawfully imposed property taxes; and (2) whether the ancient Oneida reservation in New York was disestablished or diminished.



the SCOTUS ruled that taxes are owed by the tribe = foreclosure

the oneida reservation has been diminished
the cayuga reservation has been disestablished

...ponder


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/14/10 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
"The high court has ruled on Oneida Indian land cases three times, most recently in 2005 when it ruled that nation land was not sovereign and thus subject to taxes." They can *rule* all they want but it's been 5 years and NOTHING has been done


because the tribes use the illegal cig money you pay them to fight every ruling over and over and over again
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/15/10 09:02 AM

tribes to meet with obama again

what will they 'ask' for this time
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/28/10 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
Updated: 06/12/2009 06:04 AM
By: Bill Carey

AUBURN, N.Y. -- The message from a host of Cayuga County officials was a simple one. If the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs agrees to allow the Cayuga Indians to place land into federal trust, tax losses for local schools and governments will be substantial and local businesses competing with Indian enterprises will be hurt.

“This is any business. Towing businesses. This is garages. Anything that can operate tax free on land in trust land can certainly affect the businesses here,” said Cayuga County legislator David Axton.

And the officials say they have numbers to back up their claims. Just last year, Cayuga and Seneca County authorities shut down cigarette sales by two service stations operated by the Cayuga Nation, claiming they were evading tax laws. The county has surveyed other convenience stores in the area and says most have seen increases in cigarette sales of 20 to 40 percent since that shutdown. They estimate they may have been losing millions in tax revenues prior to the action.

Cayuga and Seneca counties were the first to take action to disrupt cigarette sales by an Indian nation. They were hoping the message would be clear in Albany.

Governor Paterson has already signed legislation calling for collection of taxes on Indian cigarette sales and, in Cayuga County, they say a state facing billions in red ink should look at the potential windfall.

Cayuga Indian Nation land trust dispute
The long running dispute over land claims by the Cayuga Indians and the insistence of Cayuga and Seneca counties on their rights to tax revenues is about to heat up again. At issue, the Cayugas move to have the federal government allow 130 acres of land to be put into federal trust, exempting it from local taxes. Our Bill Carey says the campaign to block the move is underway.

“You're talking $30 million from two little convenience stores . You multiply that, times the Smoking Joes, 110 of those, the Sav-Ons in Oneida, the Long Island, all the millions of cigarettes they're selling down there, it's about a billion dollars in taxes a year that the state's missing out on ,” said Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann.

Some counties have opened negotiations with various Indian groups hoping to settle land claims and tax issues. Cayuga County hasn't taken that route.

“We have no discussions going on in the legislature about any kind of settlement,” said Cayuga County Legislature Chairman Peter Tortorici.

The case against sovereignty and against placement of land into trust, they say, is clear.

The hearing by the Bureau of Indian Affairs is due on June 17th in Seneca Falls.


raid them on the illegal gas sales
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/03/11 08:06 AM

By David B. Vickers, president
Upstate Citizens for Equality

To The Editor:

Things may be looking up for local property owners and business owners if the Supreme Court of the United States agrees to hear Madison and Oneida counties’ complaint about continued Oneida Indian Nation tax evasion. In a document filed with the U.S. Supreme Court and dated July 9, 2010, the counties are asking the Supreme Court to do two things:

1.) Decide that tribally owned land that is not held in trust can be both taxed and foreclosed upon, and

2.) Declare that the Oneida’s “ancient reservation” has been disestablished.

In a strongly worded petition, the counties have argued that Judge Hurd and the Second Circuit have taken wrong turns when interpreting the Sherrill decision and its aftermath. The result, according to the counties, is an absurd and untenable situation in which previous decisions have been ignored or misunderstood.

According to the counties, if Hurd’s interpretation of the current situation is accurate (and it is not), then the Oneidas could purchase the Empire State Building on the open market and turn around and deprive the City of New York of all real property taxes in perpetuity. Clearly, Judge Hurd’s error needs to be corrected and the counties have made a very strong argument for the Supreme Court to hear the case.

At this point, property and small business owners have to hope that Anthony Picente won’t jump in and make a bad situation all the worse by attempting to “further negotiate” until the Supreme Court decides to hear the case. Any possible negotiations while the case is still pending is not only unwise, but blatantly foolish. We know that this has not stopped Picente in the past.

Also, it would appear that the UCE may have a new supporter in this struggle. In an e-mail that came directly from Rick Bargabos, the candidate for the 111th Assembly District, he stated that the counties’ legal action had his full knowledge and support. It would indeed be good news if candidate Bargabos agreed that the Oneida Indian tribe has no “ancient reservation” in New York apart from the 32 acres off of Route 46 in Oneida city.

SCOTUS has accepted the case
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/03/11 11:52 AM

Quote:
In a strongly worded petition, the counties have argued that Judge Hurd and the Second Circuit have taken wrong turns when interpreting the Sherrill decision and its aftermath. The result, according to the counties, is an absurd and untenable situation in which previous decisions have been ignored or misunderstood.



Thank you for finally acknowledging, and post this article that PROVES you "beloved" Sherrill ruiling is JUNK and not worth the paper it's written on! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/03/11 05:44 PM

Quote:
Sherrill ruiling is JUNK and not worth the paper it's written on!


That's for SCOTUS to decide.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/04/11 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Quote:
In a strongly worded petition, the counties have argued that Judge Hurd and the Second Circuit have taken wrong turns when interpreting the Sherrill decision and its aftermath. The result, according to the counties, is an absurd and untenable situation in which previous decisions have been ignored or misunderstood.



Thank you for finally acknowledging, and post this article that PROVES you "beloved" Sherrill ruiling is JUNK and not worth the paper it's written on! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


can you read?


...According to the counties, if Hurd’s interpretation of the current situation is accurate (and it is not), then the Oneidas could purchase the Empire State Building on the open market and turn around and deprive the City of New York of all real property taxes in perpetuity...


why would halftown not buy land in NYC as there is more people to sell to?

must be why halftown ran for trust right after the ruling...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/04/11 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Sherrill ruiling is JUNK and not worth the paper it's written on!


That's for SCOTUS to decide.


common sense would say a tribe cannot by land and call it sovereign land
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/06/11 12:29 PM

By Scott E. Peterman, Vice President
Upstate Citizens for Equality


Cigarette customers, not tribe, taxed

To The Editor:

In announcing the movement of the Oneida Indian Nation’s cigarette plant to its bingo hall on Route 46, the OIN has finally acknowledged the fact that treaties and quasi-sovereign status of the tribe do not prevent the state from the valid collection of sales tax on purchases made by non-member customers of tribally owned businesses whether those businesses are located on or off a reservation.

In a press conference, Chief Operating Officer Peter Carmen stated that the plant was being moved to the “Oneida homeland” because of the state’s plan to implement a sales tax collection plan on Sept. 1 and that the plan could be circumvented because of a federal law that supposedly preempts state efforts to tax products manufactured and sold on an Indian reservation. I know of no such law that would apply to cigarette sales, and I challenge Mr. Carmen to cite the law in this newspaper.

The U.S. Supreme Court rulings regarding this issue are clear; the reason states may enforce the valid collection of those taxes is that such collection does not “frustrate tribal self-government or runs afoul of any congressional enactment dealing with the affairs of reservation Indians,” and that principles of federal Indian law do not authorize Indian tribes to “market an exemption from state taxation to persons who would normally do their business elsewhere.” It doesn’t mention or matter where the cigarettes come from, the OIN will still be in violation because it will still be “marketing a tax exemption.”

Carmen stated that this issue is not about cigarettes, but is about “one government attempting to impose taxes on another government.” That is pure nonsense. The state is clearly taxing non-member customers and not the tribe.

This entire situation stands as simply one more example of the greed and dishonesty of the OIN. It continuously exploits its own culture for monetary gain as it maneuvers to take advantage of its neighbors at every opportunity. It seeks all the benefits of our society while denying any reasonable responsibility to that society.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/07/11 08:11 AM

ALBANY -- Some leaders of New York's Indian nations are concerned about a lack of outreach by the new Cuomo administration.

Seneca Nation President Robert Odawi Porter told the Buffalo News that he hopes to see an interest in dialog at a time of strained relations between the state and Native Americans. Porter was at the Capitol to attend Gov. Andrew Cuomo's State of the State address Wednesday, at the invitation of legislators.

J.C. Seneca, co-chairman of the Seneca Tribal Council, also attended the speech. He said he's concerned that Cuomo hasn't reached out to the Seneca Nation.

Porter noted that Gov. Mario Cuomo, the governor's father, invited Indian leaders to his first inaugural in 1983. So did former Gov. Eliot Spitzer.

Native Americans are in engaged in a dispute with the state over former Gov. David Paterson's bid to end tax-free cigarette sales by Indian retailers. Cuomo has backed the collection effort.


remember the tribes are above NYS law....lol
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/11/11 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Native Americans are in engaged in a dispute with the state over former Gov. David Paterson's bid to end tax-free cigarette sales by Indian retailers. Cuomo has backed the collection effort.



time will tell
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/11/11 11:56 AM

Supreme court dismisses Oneida case; Cayugas' case continues

In a case being closely followed in Cayuga and Seneca counties, the U.S. Supreme Court has vacated a judgment prohibiting Oneida and Madison counties from foreclosing on Oneida Indian Nation-owned land and sent the case back to a lower court for reconsideration.

The U.S. Supreme Court issued a decision Monday stating that the court will not hear the case as scheduled on Feb. 23 and that is has vacated a lower court's ruling because the Oneida Nation waived its rights to sovereign immunity from tax foreclosure.

The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals previously ruled that counties cannot foreclose on tribal lands because tribes have sovereign immunity.

The U.S. Supreme Court also ordered the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to reconsider its previous decision in light of the nation's waiver.

Officials in Seneca and Cayuga counties were looking to the Oneida Nation's case for guidance in a similar foreclosure action by each county against the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York.

"The Supreme Court sent (the case) back and I believe it essentially overturns that decision," said Seneca County Attorney Frank Fisher. "It vacates the judgment and returns it to the lower court to reconsider."

The Oneida Nation case involved about 17,000 acres -- most of which the federal government has agreed to place into a tax-exempt trust.

Fisher said it's too early to tell how the U.S. Supreme Court's decision will impact the Cayuga Nation's foreclosure proceedings.

The U.S. District Court for Western District of New York is currently scheduled to hear arguments Thursday on whether or not Seneca County should be allowed to proceed with its foreclosure process. A similar hearing may be scheduled in the Cayuga County foreclosures.

Cayuga County claims the tribe owes nearly $124,000 in property taxes while Seneca County claims the tribe owes $5,500. Both claims are from 2008 and do not include 2009 and 2010.

Thursday's district court hearing may be adjourned to give both sides a chance to research the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Oneida Nation case.

Lee Alcott, an attorney representing the Cayuga Nation, said a key difference between the Oneida Nation case and the Cayugas' is that the Cayuga Nation is not waiving its sovereign immunity.

Alcott added it is unclear what impact the U.S. Supreme Court's decision might have on the Cayugas' foreclosure process.

The district court can still use the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals' original decision when hearing the Cayugas' case, Alcott said.

The Cayugas claim their sovereign immunity gives them immunity from foreclosure even though they are required to pay property taxes.

David Schraver, an attorney representing Oneida and Madison counties, said he could only speculate on why the Oneida Nation waived its sovereignty.

With the case headed back to the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, the court can re-examine the Oneida Nation's reservation status, whether foreclosure violates the Indian Trade and Intercourse Act and whether the tribe's due process was violated, Schraver said.

Attorneys representing the Oneida Nation did not return phone calls seeking a comment.


oneida tribe backtracking?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/13/11 08:02 AM

Impact of Oneidas case stretches beyond region
Other tribes, states monitoring issue as it moves back to lower court

State governments and Indian tribes across the country were watching this week when the U.S. Supreme Court tossed a case about foreclosure on Oneida Indian Nation land back down to a lower court.

Over the past six years, as the case wended its way through the court system, Indian tribes feared if the Oneidas lost, it could diminish all their standings under the law.

And governments of at least 12 states that have tribes within their borders worried that if the Oneidas won, Indian nations could evade property tax collection.

Now that the Supreme Court has booted the case back to the 2nd U.S. District Court of Appeals, the states will have to wait for resolution, but Indian tribes have been granted a reprieve, a Washington D.C.-based advocate for Indian tribes said.

“You never know what the Supreme Court is going to do,” said John Dossett, general council for the National Congress of American Indians. “It could have really hurt them.”

The suit was initiated soon after the U.S. Supreme Court’s 2005 ruling that the Nation had to pay property tax on its non-reservation land.

After that decision, Oneida and Madison counties immediately moved to foreclose on the Oneida’s non-reservation land, since property taxes had not been paid on it in years. The Nation refused, and the issue has been under litigation ever since.

At the heart of the case — Madison County and Oneida County vs. Oneida Indian Nation of New York — is the issue of sovereign immunity for Indian tribes.

Among the Oneidas’ arguments was that the Nation was exempt from foreclosure because of its sovereign immunity.

Dossett said if the Supreme Court had ruled against the Oneidas, it could have further chipped away at the standing of tribes as independent governmental entities.

“It’s like a death by a thousand cuts,” Dossett said. “Over long spans of time, the Supreme Court just seems to find against tribes on a regular basis.”

One expert on Indian issues, Robert Batson of Albany Law School, said if the court had ruled against the Oneidas and had expressed its decision in broad terms, it could have caused “quite a change.”

“They would basically be like a corporation, not a government, subject to any suit in court,” he said of the Indian nations.

Other Indian nations contacted by the Observer-Dispatch did not return calls Tuesday.

Pressure?

Asked if the National Congress of American Indians had put pressure on the Oneidas to back away from the immunity argument, Dossett demurred.

“It wasn’t really pressure,” he said. “We talked about it quite a bit. I don’t know that tribes have the tools to put pressure on one another.”

Dossett said that in his view, recent Supreme Court rulings on Indian issues had not been favorable to the tribes.

Pressure or no, the Oneida Nation issued a declaration in late November “irrevocably and perpetually” waiving its immunity from foreclosures by state, local and county governments.

The Oneidas’ attorney, Washington D.C.-based Seth Waxman, said removing the foreclosure issue from the case eliminated the possibility that the court could alter sovereign immunity laws, but that wasn’t the reason for the declaration.

“If the issue of sovereign immunity were litigated, we think we would win,” he said.

But, he added, the case could be argued on other grounds that had not reached the Supreme Court and could now be litigated in lower court.

Broader impact

Several states will be watching to see how the case proceeds.

New York and 11 other states have filed a brief with the courts contending that blocking the counties from foreclosing on the property “imperils real property tax collection throughout the United States because it permits Indian tribes nationwide to escape enforcement of lawfully imposed real property taxes.”

David Schraver, the attorney representing Oneida and Madison counties, said the Supreme Court’s decision not to hear the case would delay resolution of that issue.

“There won’t be a decision in the short term by the Supreme Court,” he said.

Meanwhile, the Nation has been attempting to have its non-reservation property put into federal trust, free of state and local taxation and regulation.

The state and counties are fighting that plan in the courts as well, but they have yet to reach the level of the Supreme Court.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/18/11 08:01 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
The Cayugas claim their sovereign immunity gives them immunity from foreclosure even though they are required to pay property taxes.



that is not what the scotus told you regading the sherrill ruling
is that why you applied for trust.....hum
and you still refuse to pay the required property taxes... weave that web
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/11 08:14 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

The Cayugas claim their sovereign immunity gives them immunity from foreclosure even though they are required to pay property taxes.



if you are required to pay taxes then you might be sovereign too.......lol

seems sales taxes would need to be paid also.... ;\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/11 02:03 PM

Cayuga Nation foreclosure hearing postponed
Story Discussion Cayuga Nation foreclosure hearing postponed
The Citizen staff report AuburnPub.com | Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:01 pm | (0) Comments

Font Size: Default font size Larger font size

Related Documents
Related: U.S. Supreme Court decision
Related: Cayuga Nation court documents
A hearing planned for Thursday regarding the Cayuga Indian Nation of New York's effort to stop foreclosure on some of its land by Seneca County has been adjourned.

Lee Alcott, an attorney representing the tribe, said the hearing was pushed back at the county's request because the county wants time to consider the impact of this week's U.S. Supreme Court decision in a similar case involving the Oneida Nation. In that case, the Supreme Court vacated a lower court ruling when the Oneidas decided to waive their claim to sovereign immunity.

In seeking the adjournment, Seneca County agreed to hold off on moving forward with the foreclosure proceedings until the district court makes a decision.

The Cayuga Nation had asked a federal judge in the U.S. District Court Western District of New York for an injunction and temporary restraining order preventing Seneca County from foreclosing on the tribes' land.

Cayuga County is also taking steps to foreclose on Cayuga Nation property, but that process is not as far along as the one in Seneca County, so the nation has not filed a legal challenge yet.



Seneca County officials have said that the tribe owes nearly $5,500 in property taxes from 2008 while Cayuga County officials said the tribe owes nearly $124,000 in unpaid taxes from 2008. The tribe has maintained its sovereignty exempts it from paying taxes.

Alcott said a new date for hearings in the Seneca County case has not been established.


does the tribe not pay for their employees paycheck adjustments?
Posted by: Harleybobb

baloney - 01/20/11 02:04 PM

more Bluezone baloney
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/11 02:05 PM

do not click on it
there are more threads
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/23/11 02:48 PM

Cuomo Plans To Move Forward With Indian Cigarette Tax Plan

state reservations ...tax all sales
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/11 08:14 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone

State Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican and a member of the committee on investigations and government operations, said during Tuesday's hearing that the time for negotiating is over. He said he favors a "drop dead" date, to start charging the tax whether the tribes agreed to it or not.

Wagging his finger at Indians in the audience, he said the U.S. victory over the British during the Revolutionary War gave the government the right to tax its citizens, and he suggested that the tribes benefited from state health, education and public works programs and should therefore be required to pay the same taxes.

Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/11 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Cuomo Plans To Move Forward With Indian Cigarette Tax Plan

state reservations ...tax all sales


So did Paterson, so did Spitzer, so did Pataki, so did Prince Andrew's Daddy.... we all see how well it worked out for them \:\/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/25/11 11:41 AM

Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/25/11 03:56 PM

Here we go with the WORTHLESS Sherrill ruling! Like I said what good is it if it has NEVER been enforced! Also why are they *reviewing* the 2005 ruling....if it held water there wouldn't be a need to review it!

Better yet....your *beloved* ruling states:
"The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill"

Turning Stone, their smoke shops, gas stations, AND new cig manufacturing plant aren't even IN Sherill so you ruling is MOOT!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/25/11 06:19 PM

Even better your ruling states taxes on PROPERTY where does it say anything about gambling, gas, or cigarette purchases
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/11 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/28/11 08:10 AM

Quote:


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/01/11 11:32 AM

WHY DOESN'T THE WATCHDOG BARK? Dyster silent on Seneca compact renewal
ANALYSIS By Frank Parlato Jr.
The Seneca Gaming Compact will expire in January 2016.



That means that during the next mayoral administration most of the negotiations over whether to renew the compact and what the terms may be for a proposed renewal will take place.

The present compact sets forth what the Seneca Sovereign Nation, Albany and Niagara Falls each get for granting to Seneca the monopoly for gaming in Niagara Falls.

In short, on a 50-acre grant of land in the middle of our city's downtown -- land that used to be part of America -- the Senecas may operate casinos and must pay 25 percent of slot machine revenue to Albany, which in turn pays Niagara Falls 25 percent of that.

The Senecas get to operate everything else on this land, from non-slot machine gaming to hotel rooms to any kind of retail, 100 percent tax-free.

No income, sales or property taxes.

Mayor Paul Dyster, who is running for re-election, should be able to tell the public what his position is on this important matter.

So far he has been silent.

There are those who think the compact should not be renewed and that we could find a way to take back the 50 acres of land that Albany in effect removed from America to give to the Seneca -- put it back in America and treat the Seneca Gaming Corp. as if they were in the United States.

Others think that, should Americans wish to continue to grant Seneca a legal preference over Americans in this town, at least they should make them pay sales, income and property taxes on non-gaming businesses like its hotel, restaurants and retail stores.

Some go further, suggesting that the Senecas pay a percentage on all gaming activities, not just slot machines.

Some go even further, saying Americans should have the same legal right as Senecas to conduct gaming operations in Niagara Falls.

What is not disputed is that city businesses today must fight against the unfair advantage that Seneca downtown businesses have -- which is that they operate tax-free.

Many people have begun to see, now that the glamour of having a casino is wearing thin, that there has not been any economic spinoff from having it here. In fact, just the opposite is the case. There has been a net loss of taxpaying American businesses in Niagara Falls that is greater than the opening of new tax-free Seneca businesses.

Meanwhile, although it is a golden time in Niagara Falls for the Seneca, it is tough for Americans here. The residential tax rate for Americans in Niagara Falls is high and keeps getting higher.

It will increase this year by 2.6 percent, to $17.59 per $1,000 of assessed value, and the business tax rate will increase by 3.3 percent, to $31.58 per $1,000, in accordance with Dyster's new budget, making Niagara Falls the highest-taxed city in proportion to its real estate values in the United States.

The city property tax bill alone (not counting school or county property taxes) for a home assessed at $80,000 is $1,407. Assessments, however, in Niagara Falls are often higher than true market value. An $80,000 assessment might be, in this declining real estate market, applied for a property worth $40,000, making the true property tax rate more than 3 percent of the property's value -- creating a shocking divestiture of wealth through disproportionate taxation.

The owner of a commercial property assessed at $100,000 would have a city tax bill of $3,158. If that property is actually worth $50,000, the owner is paying more than 6 percent of its value every year. All the while, Seneca next door pays zero.

Politicians who preside over our city's continual decline tell us things are getting better, when we know in our hearts things are bad and getting worse. Government is not the solution. All government ideas cost people money from their sweat and blood and tears, whether it is a taxpayer-funded museum for Harriet Tubman, who never did a thing here in Niagara Falls, or a taxpayer-funded culinary institute to compete against the city's tax-paying restaurants, or a $40 million publicly funded train station that is unlikely to seat more than a thousand riders a month, although it will provide supporters of the mayor with literally millions in planning fees.

A real development plan is not one that sees all development paid for by taxpayers. In a prosperous nation or city, development is supposed to arise from the people -- entrepreneurs -- and not the government.

As for Dyster, he seems to favor government-sponsored projects, or projects by people who give him money directly or indirectly. And he seems to love to use the Seneca casino money to help those supporters.

Our next mayor might be someone who will pledge to end the Seneca preferences. Another renewal may ruin us.

Consider: In 2003, the Seneca Niagara Casino opened. In 2006, they built their mammoth, tax-free, 604-room, 26-story hotel.

Since then, the Seneca Gaming Corp.'s downtown holdings continue to grow. They have dozens of tax-free retail operations, and the gaming corporation has frankly remained focused on running a business that employs 2,600 people -- mostly at poverty-level wages, mostly technically part-time people, presumably to save on paying benefits -- a business that pumps millions of dollars into the Western New York economy each year, while taking out hundreds of millions from it from gaming losses from locals, and by unfairly competing with local businesses and not paying taxes. It has been a net loss to have them here, as the surrounding environs attest.

And the Senecas are not particularly American-friendly as an employer. Preferences go to Senecas over Americans in hiring and firing. A Seneca who covets an American's job has a legal right to snatch it on sovereign land.

"We all believe the Senecas have an important role to play in downtown development and helping to promote the positive things that are happening down there," Dyster said.

Other than Senecas, what are the "positive things"? There have been dozens of recent local business failures. Who can compete against a tax-free nation? Who will come to a town where this dichotomy exists -- dual business enterprises, one that pays the highest taxes in the nation and the other that pays no taxes whatsoever?

Dyster said he didn't know if he would agree that Americans should have legal equality with Seneca, or that Americans should be permitted to open casinos.

He needed to study that.

It would perhaps be too easy to sarcastically suggest that he could find a campaign contributor to do the study and use casino money to pay him. But it probably will be the truth.

Meanwhile, Seneca leaders tell us they are "going to be bold and be successful." That's easy when you are tax-free, surrounded by a city comprised of leaders who think Seneca growth is positive development.

For the Seneca, of course it is. Through its untold wealth, the Seneca Nation recently developed a new golf course in Lewiston. The $25 million Hickory Stick Golf Course opened in July and has since been named the sixth-best new course in America by Golf magazine. It's easy to get big when you pay no taxes.

In 2010, the Seneca Gaming Corp. added several more tax-free restaurants and retail offerings to compete with other stores in our overtaxed city.

In the end, it may be proven that this city failed because we did not stand up to Albany. We let them take our hydropower and our profit from tourism. We let them take our land and give tax-free superiority to the sovereign Seneca Nation, instead of demanding the advantages for ourselves and our children.

Perhaps Dyster cannot be blamed for not wanting to disrupt a cozy environment. He has gotten accustomed to doling out some of the $20 million or so that the casino generates for Niagara Falls -- a pittance, really, because Seneca earns a million a day or better.

Dyster uses it to pay for studies to, for instance, designate his own home as historic. Or to hire nondescript out-of-towners like Peter Kay for $100,000 per year. Or to get people on committees to make up provably false history about the Underground Railroad in Niagara Falls -- ostensibly in order to build a museum, but in reality to pander to the black vote.

Dyster gives casino money to campaign contributors to make studies, or gives it to those who might become campaign contributors to make more studies. He uses it to pay for the over-budgeted courthouse, built by his supporters.

Why doesn't the watchdog bark?

It has been suggested that maybe it's because the Seneca Nation -- or their money -- are his master, not the luckless residents of the Falls.

Niagara Falls Reporter http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com Feb. 1, 2011

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/03/11 08:05 AM

State budget proposal eliminates aid to offset unpaid taxes in Madison, Oneida counties

Published: Tuesday, February 01, 2011, 6:11 PM Updated: Tuesday, February 01, 2011, 6:17 PM

Officials in Madison and Oneida counties said they wouldn’t have been shocked to see a cut in the state funding they have received each year to offset shortfalls in unpaid property and sales tax revenues from land owned by the Oneida Indian Nation.

But they were more than surprised when the pair of $1.96 million payments were completely missing from Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s proposed spending plan Tuesday.

“Without any discussion, any explanation, any plan, it was entirely eliminated,” said Oneida County Executive Anthony Picente. “That’s a big hole for us, a huge hit.”

The payments were instituted in 2005 to provide interim assistance for revenue losses related to Indian land claims. In recent years, the funding has declined in proportion with other state funding cuts, county officials said.

Madison County Board of Supervisors Chairman John Becker said the continued non-collection of taxes makes less sense given the state’s financial health.

“If they collected the sales tax and property tax in the first place, we wouldn’t have to worry about it,” said Becker. If such taxes were paid, Madison County would receive an estimated $6 million a year from properties held by the Oneida Indian Nation , which has claimed sovereign immunity.

Picente said the cut would add $2 million to his county’s tax levy, eliminating any benefit from the state’s proposed property tax cap.

“What we really need is reform, not rhetoric,” he said.




plus the county losses all the cig and gas sales taxes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/04/11 07:26 AM

Federal gov't reverses decision on Oneida Nation Census maps
by Matt Mulcahy


The United States Department of the Interior and the U.S. Census Bureau have taken away boundaries on the new Census maps that showed Oneida Nation land suddenly growing tenfold. The new maps gave the appearance of stretching the Nation's property from 32 acres to more than 300,000. That switch will now be reversed.

The maps came as a surprise to people in the area, including government leaders who did not know the change was coming. Senator Charles Schumer learned of the new boundaries by reading it in the Utica newspaper during a visit to the region.

He then called Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar. That conversation led to a retraction of the new boundaries. The Senator claims someone was sneaking it through, "I don't know how this slipped in it seems to be a below the table operation . Now we're back to where we were. And everyone can breathe a sigh of relief. This is the kind of thing that makes people wonder what the heck is going on in Washington."

The Oneida Indian Nation is not happy with what it calls Senator Schumer's interference. It put out a strongly worded statement this afternoon.

This is the entire statement issued by the Oneida Indian Nation late this afternoon:

"Every court that has ever considered this issue has ruled that the Oneida Nation reservation was never disestablished. Even after Senator Schumer's interference, the Department of Interior's new letter still acknowledges that "the Oneida Reservation has not been disestablished and is intact" and that "this position is legally binding." Severe legal issues arise when a member of Congress uses his elected position to unduly influence a regulatory process, and especially the Census Bureau, for improper political purposes. The Oneida Nation obviously will not permit such misconduct to occur. The Nation will be pursuing Senator Schumer's misconduct with the appropriate authorities who have jurisdiction over these matters, and we will defer further comment to allow the legal process to run its course."

Senator Schumer says now that the maps are being returned to a 32 acre reservation for the Oneidas people in the area can breathe easily again
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/04/11 07:27 AM

New York governor anticipates $130M from cigarette tax on tribes
Thursday, February 3, 2011

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) released his proposed budget and said he anticipates the state will collect $130 million in tobacco taxes in Indian Country.

The state is taxing wholesalers who sell to reservation smoke shops.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/04/11 07:28 AM

NY's attorney general sues online tobacco sites


New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman says his office is suing six website operators, accusing them of illegally selling cigarettes to state residents.

Schneiderman says the online sales represent hundreds of millions in lost sales tax revenues for the state. He also contends that online cigarette sales makes it easier for minors to buy cigarettes.

The attorney general says investigators in his office made numerous cigarette purchases, ordering off the websites in recent months.

State law requires anyone shipping cigarettes to be a licensed cigarette tax agent or wholesale dealer.

The lawsuit was filed Wednesday in state Supreme Court in Manhattan.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/07/11 08:35 AM

Oneida Indian Nation files foreclosure brief
Published: Friday, February 04, 2011
by CAITLIN TRAYNOR
Dispatch Staff Writer

NEW YORK -- The Oneida Indian Nation submitted its brief in the foreclosure case currently before the Second Circuit Court of Appeals Wednesday, drawing parallels with a cigarette tax case.

The Supreme Court vacated the Second Circuit’s prior decision and remanded the case back to the lower court after the Nation waived its sovereign immunity. The Supreme Court accepted Madison and Oneida counties’ petition to hear the foreclosure case after the Second Circuit upheld a district court ruling barring foreclosure proceedings against the Nation.

The counties, along with New York state, submitted briefs to the court Jan. 26. The counties will have an opportunity to reply to the Nation’s arguments by Feb. 7. No date has been scheduled yet for the two parties to face off in the courtroom.

In the Nation’s brief, it argues that the issue of sovereign immunity is now moot and urges the court to address the remaining issues, particularly the tax exemption of the Nation’s land under New York state tax law.

In background information offered on the case, the Nation asserts that within a week of the Supreme Court’s Sherrill decision in 2005, the Nation applied to have its lands taken into trust and in doing so, “committed to pay Madison and Oneida counties any and all property taxes, penalties and interest that are held to be lawfully due on the properties at issue here and it posted irrevocable letters of credit to secure that commitment.”

Despite those letters of credit “securing tax payments, Madison and Oneida counties remain steadfast in their effort to foreclose on the Nation’s property,” the Nation’s brief says.

The district court that handled the case first placed an injunction on the foreclosures on the grounds that the Nation has sovereign immunity from suit, that foreclosure would violate the Nonintercourse Act’s restrictions on alienation of Indian land, the counties failed to give notice of foreclosure and the land is exempt from tax as it is tribally-owned land.

The Second Circuit affirmed the district court’s decision on the sole ground that the Nation is immune from suit and did not address the other issues. Now that the Nation has waived its sovereign immunity, the main issue the Second Circuit needs to resolve is the taxability of Nation land under New York State tax law, it says.

The Nation points to district court rulings that have sided with Indian tribes, barring counties and the state from taxing tribal lands. In its brief it also draws parallels with the Cayugas’ cigarette tax case, saying the Second Circuit “held that the New York tax exemption for on-reservation cigarette sales applied to two parcels of land situated in the Cayuga reservation, even though the land had been alienated from the tribe for roughly 200 years and recently reacquired by the Cayugas in open-market transactions.”

That reasoning allows for the conclusion to be drawn that reacquired land within its federally recognized reservation is exempt from foreclosure, the Nation says. Continued...

Drawing on previous district court rulings, the Nation says the courts have already established that “the counties failed to give the Nation adequate notice of the foreclosure redemption period and thereby violated the Nation’s due process rights.”

The Nation also maintains that the district court properly ruled that the counties’ foreclosures on its property would violate the Nonintercourse Act. After waiving its sovereign immunity the Nation says that violation is no longer an issue.

“In light of that representation, the Nation no longer invokes the Nonintercourse Act’s statutory restrictions on the alienation of Indian land as a defense to tax foreclosures.”

Key documents:

Letters and waiver of tribal immunity: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48166369

Petioner's Brief: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48166375

Respondents Brief:: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48179992

State of New York Amicus Curiae Brief: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48166376

espondents Supreme Court Brief: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48166384
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/24/11 07:40 PM

land purchased on the open market is not indian land
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/28/11 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
the Nation says the courts have already established that “the counties failed to give the Nation adequate notice of the foreclosure redemption period and thereby violated the Nation’s due process rights.”


LOL
you have had over 5 years notice to pay your taxes
the tribe sure likes to run in circles
worried about going in front of the scotus again?


Quote:

Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/04/11 06:50 AM

the oneida and cayuga take a different path regarding their foreclosure
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/07/11 10:06 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone

State Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican and a member of the committee on investigations and government operations, said during Tuesday's hearing that the time for negotiating is over. He said he favors a "drop dead" date, to start charging the tax whether the tribes agreed to it or not.

Wagging his finger at Indians in the audience, he said the U.S. victory over the British during the Revolutionary War gave the government the right to tax its citizens, and he suggested that the tribes benefited from state health, education and public works programs and should therefore be required to pay the same taxes.



pay their share
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/16/11 09:51 AM

Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/21/11 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Federal gov't reverses decision on Oneida Nation Census maps
by Matt Mulcahy


see no cayuga reservation on the census map
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/19/11 07:47 AM

or on google maps either
Posted by: DeadDave

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 04/19/11 09:58 AM

Are u stupid or just crazy? Page after page of u talking to yourself, u really need to find a life!
Posted by: twocats

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 04/19/11 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: DeadDave
Are u stupid or just crazy? Page after page of u talking to yourself, u really need to find a life!


BZ is both.
Posted by: VM Smith

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 04/19/11 08:01 PM

Quote:
BZ is both.


LOL. I wouldn't say that, but I do think BZ has the goal of becoming the poster with the most posts. The other day I noticed that he'd answered his own scrabble post. So, to honor his initiative, I answered myself three times.

Today I noticed that he'd used a word that I'd used 3 turns before. So, in keeping with the spirit of things, I just repeated his word.

At this rate, he'll pass SJ in no time. LMAO
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 04/20/11 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: DeadDave
Are u stupid
correct

or just crazy?
correct


Page after page of u talking to yourself, u really need to find a life! thanks for reading


give your land back

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $1 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/20/11 07:39 AM

help him out DD


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.



Is this simple question too hard for you?




.
Posted by: DeadDave

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 04/20/11 07:41 AM

Stupid yes, crazy no!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes - 06/13/11 08:30 AM

why not let everyone get trust land?



Tribes to rally in Washington for fix to land-into-trust ruling
Tuesday, June 7, 2011

Tribal leaders will head to Washington, D.C., later this month to rally for a fix to the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Carcieri v. Salazar.

Tribes that weren't "under federal jurisdiction" in 1934 cannot follow the land-into-trust process, the court said in the February 2009 ruling. A fix ensures that all tribes, regardless of the date of federal recognition, can acquire trust land.

The Senate Indian Affairs Committee has already approved S.676 to fix the decision. But the committee plans to hold another hearing on the issue on June 23.
Similar versions of the fix -- H.R.1291 and H.R.1234 -- have yet to receive a hearing in the House.

To push for passage, tribes will hold a rally at the US Capitol on June 22. The National Congress of American Indians and the United South and Eastern Tribes are organizing the summit
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/13/11 08:31 AM

Quote:

State Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican and a member of the committee on investigations and government operations, said during Tuesday's hearing that the time for negotiating is over. He said he favors a "drop dead" date, to start charging the tax whether the tribes agreed to it or not.

Wagging his finger at Indians in the audience, he said the U.S. victory over the British during the Revolutionary War gave the government the right to tax its citizens, and he suggested that the tribes benefited from state health, education and public works programs and should therefore be required to pay the same taxes.




pay to play
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/13/11 10:10 AM

Hey Blue"Harold Camping"Zone.... I thought "the end is near" and they are foreclosing on Turning Stone??? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/13/11 04:22 PM

Counties submit final arguments over Oneida Nation foreclosure


Briefing is complete from the parties in the Oneida Nation foreclosure case.

Madison County and Oneida County foreclosed on the tribe's land due to non-payment of property taxes.

The Bureau of Indian Affairs was on track to placing the tribe's land into trust but litigation has delayed action.



when one fails to pay their taxes the county aquires it

...simple concept


will you make up the $500 million?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/13/11 04:50 PM

Quote:
The tribe lost this case as soon as they filed it; it was a losing case because a victory for the OIN would allow tribes all over the nation to purchase real estate anywhere in the country, whether within or without the boundaries of a reservation, and not have to pay property taxes; that is an unacceptable result for the American people as well as for the U.S. Supreme Court. The tribe has learned nothing from its dramatic defeat in the Sherrill case.

Attorney for the counties David Schraver is absolutely correct when he states that the tribe waived its sovereign immunity to attempt to shield itself from an unfavorable ruling. The reality is, however, that besides a losing sovereign immunity defense, there are no other winning lines of defense for the tribe. It is going to lose; it’s just a matter of when, not if."

Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 03:01 AM

Quote:
when one fails to pay their taxes the county aquires it

...simple concept



If it is soooooooo simple.... they WHY haven't they done it yet???? They won your "blessed" Sherrill ruling over 6 YEARS ago!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I know I'll be having fun at the "foreclosed" Casino on July 26th when I go to see KISS at the event center there BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 03:07 AM

Quote:
will you make up the $500 million?


If you took away the $110 per family per month food benefit increase that your *beloved* Paterson gave his *peeps* as soon as he took office ..... THERE alone is your $500 million!

Better yet...force them all to get JOBS and you will save $52 BILLION a year just on Medicaid ALONE... not to mention the income tax the state would receive!

But you like the fools in Albany would rather give to the welfare rats and try to make up for it by taxing the Indians \:\/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 07:38 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
If it is soooooooo simple.... they WHY haven't they done it yet????


cuz the tribe uses your money to fight every action in court


Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
After a 3 year battle with the City of Syracuse they have FINALLY demolished the entire vacant house behind me! I won a small victory last May when the took down the enclosed porch, but today in just a short 1 hour 15 minutes they finished the job!


without the media the house would still sit


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com

I know I'll be having fun at the "foreclosed" Casino on July 26th when I go to see KISS at the event center there BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Family: Upstate NY soldier killed in Afghanistan

Associated Press - June 6, 2011 12:35 PM ET

COHOCTON, N.Y. (AP) - Relatives of an upstate New York soldier say she was 1 of 4 U.S. Army members killed when a roadside bomb hit their vehicle in Afghanistan.

Spec. Devin Snyder's family in Cohocton tells the Evening Telegram of Hornell that the 20-year-old was killed Saturday.

The Army has said four soldiers were killed that day in an explosion in the east of the country, but the Department of Defense hasn't released their names or details of how they died.

Snyder joined the Army after graduating from Wayland-Cohocton Central School, in rural northern Steuben County.

Her survivors include her parents and three siblings, including two who serve in the military
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: s3hphoto.com
If you took away the...



do you see them claiming a 'sovereign nation'?
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 10:05 AM

Quote:
without the media the house would still sit


This has absolutely nothing to do with the natives... but OK....

They must of thought my plight was newsworthy to have it the top story of the 6:00 p.m. news.

However UCE's picket must not of been newsworthy considering R News never covered it like they said they were BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: s2hphoto.com

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/14/11 11:39 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com

I know I'll be having fun at the "foreclosed" Casino on July 26th when I go to see KISS at the event center there BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Family: Upstate NY soldier killed in Afghanistan

Associated Press - June 6, 2011 12:35 PM ET

COHOCTON, N.Y. (AP) - Relatives of an upstate New York soldier say she was 1 of 4 U.S. Army members killed when a roadside bomb hit their vehicle in Afghanistan.

Spec. Devin Snyder's family in Cohocton tells the Evening Telegram of Hornell that the 20-year-old was killed Saturday.

The Army has said four soldiers were killed that day in an explosion in the east of the country, but the Department of Defense hasn't released their names or details of how they died.

Snyder joined the Army after graduating from Wayland-Cohocton Central School, in rural northern Steuben County.

Her survivors include her parents and three siblings, including two who serve in the military


YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! If we weren't spending BILLIONS fighting these sensless wars, and putting our men and women in harms way, the U.S. and NYS wouldn't be in the financial pickle we are in and we wouldn't need the Indians tax $$ to pay the bills!!!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/16/11 07:45 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
Quote:
without the media the house would still sit


This has absolutely nothing to do with the natives... but OK....



you wanted the laws enforced
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/16/11 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: s2hphoto.com
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! If we weren't spending BILLIONS fighting these sensless wars, and putting our men and women in harms way, ...


and who pays for it?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/21/11 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
help him out DD


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.



Is this simple question too hard for you?




.



tell use when you find it
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/21/11 10:37 AM

with the recent cayuga member running into halftowns building and the local authourities coming to the rescue, the "reservation" system serves no purpose
Posted by: Ross Falk

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/21/11 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
with the recent cayuga member running into halftowns building and the local authourities coming to the rescue, the "reservation" system serves no purpose



How cares the worlds going to end next year!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/21/11 10:55 AM

bring our soldiers home
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/01/11 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.




halbritter is just a US citizen like us all
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/17/11 11:05 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
help him out DD


Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson why cut programs when you could tax the tribes and have a surplus?
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?



.



Is this simple question too hard for you?




.



tell use when you find it


it is the tribe in violation of it
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/19/11 01:45 PM

Tim Giago: Freedom of the press not really alive in Indian Country

Ray Halbritter, Publisher and CEO of Indian Country Today weekly newspaper announced last week that the newspaper will become a weekly magazine to be called This Week from Indian Country Today. Let me give you a brief history of Indian Country Today as I know it.

The Oneida Nation has owned Indian Country Today going on 13 years. I founded ICT and owned it for 18 years prior to selling the paper to them. ICT was born on the Pine Ridge Reservation in 1981 as The Lakota Times. As the newspaper grew into a national paper a contest was held within the paper looking for a new name to be more expressive of its now national stature. Lakota Times managing editor Avis Little Eagle won the contest by naming the paper Indian Country Today.

ICT was born and raised in Lakota country. Its founder was Lakota, not Oneida, but on its website you will see that Halbritter has completely erased the history of the great and wonderful years when ICT thrived among the Lakota people.

We started the newspaper because we wanted a vehicle that would report on the everyday activities of the people of the Pine Ridge Reservation. We wanted a paper that was not afraid to report the truth. And above all, we wanted a paper that did not censor any writer, whether in a letter or in a column, that we did not agree with. And in the 18 years I owned the Lakota Times/Indian Country Today, we followed that golden rule.

In the 13 years Ray Halbritter has owned Indian Country Today, the newspaper has never published a letter, a column or a news report that was critical of him, the Nation, or the newspaper. And that my friend, is known in the newspaper business as censorship.

As the former editor I began to receive letters shortly after I sold it, letters and emails that continue to come to me even today from Native Americans who were angry that letters and columns they wrote to ICT critical of Halbritter and of the newspaper, were never published.

I am recognized as a fair Indian country columnist, but not a single column of mine has ever appeared in Indian Country Today since December of 1998, the month I sold it to ICT. As the former editor of ICT and now the editor of Native Sun News, I had a philosophy: I didn’t give a hoot whether I liked or despised a Native columnist or letter writer; if their writing was pertinent to the issues of today, I published it. If I got a letter calling me an S.O.B. and my newspaper a good bottom liner for the birdcage, I published it.

Native American readers are not stupid and they recognize censorship when they don’t see it. According to a former ICT employee, Halbritter and staff trashed 18 years of the Lakota Times and the early Indian Country Today rather than keep them as archival referrals. The first 18 years of a truly great Indian newspaper went to the dumpster.
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/19/11 01:59 PM

Oh no! Native businessmen and media moguls are doing the same thing as White businessmen and media moguls!

Didn't Rupert Murdoch establish the norm?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/19/11 02:08 PM

Originally Posted By: MeRightYouWrong
On my dad's side of the family, Mikmaq, an Algonquin tribe
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/19/11 02:18 PM

What does that have to do with anything? My mom is German/Irish. Does that mean I can't comment on anything European?
Posted by: The Wookie

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/19/11 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: MeRightYouWrong
Oh no! Native businessmen and media moguls are doing the same thing as White businessmen and media moguls!

Didn't Rupert Murdoch establish the norm?
Please don't encourage bluezone.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/20/11 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: MeRightYouWrong

Didn't Rupert Murdoch establish the norm?


and rupert is a pseudo 'leader' for what psuedo 'nation'?
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/20/11 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: MeRightYouWrong

Didn't Rupert Murdoch establish the norm?


and rupert is a pseudo 'leader' for what psuedo 'nation'?


Senecas, Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onondagas have one hell of a "pseudo nation" considering they can still sell gas, cigs, and gambling tax free to ANYONE \:\/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/20/11 08:10 AM

ain't no federal reservation in NYS
write obama a letter
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/21/11 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27

Senecas, Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onondagas have one hell of a "pseudo nation" considering they can still sell gas, cigs, and gambling tax free to ANYONE \:\/


and some of OUR troops are returning home safely
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/21/11 11:58 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Senecas, Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onondagas have one hell of a "pseudo nation" considering they can still sell gas, cigs, and gambling tax free to ANYONE \:\/


hope they set some money aside to defend themselves from N korea or Iran
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/23/11 01:18 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27

Senecas, Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onondagas have one hell of a "pseudo nation" considering they can still sell gas, cigs, and gambling tax free to ANYONE \:\/


and some of OUR troops are returning home safely


Estimates from the Veterans Administration and the Census Bureau suggest that in the 1990s there were 160,000 living Indian veterans. This represented nearly 10 percent of all living Indians—a proportion triple that of the Non-Native population—and confirms once again that Native Americans play an important role in the U.S. military.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O126-NativeAmericansintheMltry.html
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/23/11 10:57 AM

there are no jobs on the reservation
they fought as US citizens
(thanks for proving my point)

where are the tribes military?
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/23/11 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
there are no jobs on the reservation
they fought as US citizens
(thanks for proving my point)

where are the tribes military?


Are you that clueless. So you mean to tell me Turning Stone, Alleghany, and Seneca Niagara casinos operate without employees. So here in Syracuse the Onongaga Nation School, The Smoke Shop, The cig plant, Onondaga Nation Medical Center and the multi-million dollar Lacrosse/Hockey complex operate without employees? So the 100's of smoke shops/gas stations in Erie and Niagara County operate with out employees?? How does skydancer and Lakeside operate with noone to unload trucks, no one to stock, and no one to ring out customers????

If what you say is true (which it never is) How can Turning Stone big one of the biggest EMPLOYERS in Oneida County if there are no jobs??
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/23/11 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27

If what you say is true (which it never is) How can Turning Stone big one of the biggest EMPLOYERS in Oneida County if there are no jobs??


turnings stone is not on a reservation

how many are tribal members?

you are aware that many reservations have unemployment rates as high as 80%

Posted by: 123

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/23/11 10:00 PM

a proportion triple that of the Non-Native population—and confirms once again that Native Americans play an important role in the U.S. military
That we do.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/24/11 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Estimates from the Veterans Administration...


when they served did they also get special treatment like better equipment, longer r & r, better meals, better healthcare, better housing...

if they got the same treatment then when they return they should be treated like all US citizens .... equal

not a seperate 'nation'
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/24/11 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: 123
That we do.


US citizenship 1924
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/24/11 11:08 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Estimates from the Veterans Administration...


when they served did they also get special treatment like better equipment, longer r & r, better meals, better healthcare, better housing...

if they got the same treatment then when they return they should be treated like all US citizens .... equal

not a seperate 'nation'


You claim they are all on welfare ....so that means they get the same meals, healthcare, and housing that you and kyle do \:\/
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/31/11 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
You claim they are all on welfare


incorrect
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/08/12 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
How can Turning Stone big one of the biggest EMPLOYERS in Oneida County if there are no jobs??


TS is not on a federal or state reservation
see trust application
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/18/12 01:23 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
If what you say is true (which it never is)


the scotus ruled against the oneida tribe
see sherrill ruling
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/18/12 02:34 PM

TRUE:

-SCOTUS ruled against the Oneidas. (Sherrill Ruling)

-The Oniedas, Senecas, Onondagas, or Cayugas Do Not have a recognized State or Federal Reservation.

With that being said, this is also VERY TRUE:

-Oneidas, Senecas, Onondagas, and Cayugas sell cigarettes tax free (even though they Do Not have a recognized State or Federal Reservation)


-Oneidas, Senecas, and Cayugas sell tax free gas (even though they Do Not have a recognized State or Federal Reservation)


-Oneidas and Senecas make tax-free cigarettes (even though they Do Not have a recognized State or Federal Reservation)


-Oneidas and Senecas operate gambling casinos and do not pay tax on gambling proceeds or any non-food/beverage sale (even though they Do Not have a recognized State or Federal Reservation)


-Oneidas and Seneca have a NYS Liquor License

------------------------------------------------------------

Even though Scotus Ruled against them and there isn't a recognized State or Federal Reservation they are ALLOWED to continue like the SCOTUS didn't rule against them and like the DO have a State recognized Reservation!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/19/12 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
TRUE:

-SCOTUS ruled against the Oneidas. (Sherrill Ruling)



the remainder of your post is incorrect
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/19/12 07:54 PM

hope you did not spend a large amount of time on that
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/19/12 08:02 PM

read it slow

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.citizensalliance.org.
Indian Treaties and Current Federal Indian Policy
By Darrel Smith
Editor of the CERA Journal

Many people agree that federal Indian policy is harmful, even racist, but they think that these policies are required by the treaties that have been entered into between the federal government and Indian tribes. The United States Government entered into about 373 treaties with less than 150 Indian tribes between 1778 and 1868. Many tribes have multiple treaties. For example, there are twenty treaties with the Cherokee, forty-four with the Chippewa and fifteen with the Choctaw. The treaties and agreements with the various Sioux bands are recorded in a three volume book set. The Bureau of Indian Affairs recognizes 564 tribes (August, 2009). There are also, numerous agreements between the government and tribes starting in 1792 and occurring especially after the end of the treaty period in 1871.

The federal government recognizes hundreds of tribes that don't have a single treaty with the government. There isn't a single treaty between the government and Indian people in general. All the treaties were between the government and specific Indian tribes. A treaty with one entity doesn't bind relations with other entities. Treaty provisions with Spain, for example, don't normally control our relations with Denmark. If federal Indian policy is required by treaty provisions why does the government recognize and deal with treaty and non-treaty tribes essentially the same? Why do they deal with different tribes who have different treaties, and treaty provisions, essentially the same? The vast majority of modern federal Indian policy is unrelated to Indian treaties.

The Constitution makes the U. S. Constitution, laws and treaties the "supreme Law of the Land" over state authority with this clause:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."[Art.VI, Cl. 2]

(The "Legal Issues" section of our web site is one of the few places you can find a link to all the Indian treaties.) Indian treaties are valid historical documents equal to the highest law of the land and superior to state constitutions and laws, but are superseded by later federal treaties, legal agreements, laws, and, of course, the US Constitution itself. For example, in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S.

1 (1957) the Supreme Court said:

"There is nothing new or unique about what we say here. This Court has regularly and uniformly recognized the supremacy of the Constitution over a treaty. For example, in Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. 258, 267, it declared: "'The treaty power, as expressed in the Constitution, is in terms unlimited except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government or of its departments, and those arising from the nature of the government itself and of that of the States. It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the Constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the [354 U.S. 1, 18] government or in that of one of the States, or a cession of any portion of the territory of the latter, without its consent.' "This Court has also repeatedly taken the position that an Act of Congress, which must comply with the Constitution, is on a full parity with a treaty, and that when a statute which is subsequent in time is inconsistent with a treaty, the statute to the extent of conflict renders the treaty null. It would be completely anomalous to say that a treaty need not comply with the Constitution when such an agreement can be overridden by a statute that must conform to that instrument."

Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.

The Fourteenth Amendment, the Dawes and Burke Acts, the Citizenship Act of 1924 and many other laws and constitutional provisions legally should take precedence over any inconsistent provisions of earlier treaties. Indians on reservations still do not have the protections of our state and federal constitutions. Not only is the current situation not required by law, it violates any normal understanding of law. For an explanation of the status of tribal members on reservations read the article entitled Why Indians are Second Class Citizens available at the bottom of the "Home Page" on our web site at: http://www.citizensalliance.org .

Modern federal Indian policy is entirely dependent on the existence of tribal governments in order to function. If treaties didn't prevent the end of tribal governments as political entities as mandated by the Dawes and Burke Acts, then these same treaties certainly can't require the reestablishment of political tribal governments by the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. Justice Clarence Thomas referred to this while concurring in United States v. Lara:

"Next, the Court acknowledges that '[t]he treaty power does not literally authorize Congress to act legislatively, for it is an Article II power authorizing the President, not Congress, 'to make Treaties.'"… (quoting U.S. Const., Art. II, §2, cl. 2). This, of course, suffices to show that it provides no power to Congress, at least in the absence of a specific treaty. Cf. Missouri v. Holland, 252 U. S. 416 (1920). The treaty power does not, as the Court seems to believe, provide Congress with freefloating power to legislate as it sees fit on topics that could potentially implicate some unspecified treaty. Such an assertion is especially ironic in light of Congress' enacted prohibition on Indian treaties.

"The Federal Government cannot simultaneously claim power to regulate virtually every aspect of the tribes through ordinary domestic legislation and also maintain that the tribes possess anything resembling 'sovereignty.'"

Not only is Judge Thomas correct in his analysis that that you need a specific treaty provision, as has been noted above, you also need a specific treaty that hasn't been voided by later treaties, agreements, laws or the provisions of the Constitution itself. Then that treaty only controls relations with the specific tribe involved. These limitations guarantee that treaties cannot provide a valid legal basis for modern federal Indian policy. Just one question should be sufficient to clearly demonstrate this fact. Where are the treaty provisions that authorize the federal government to hold the deed to all "Indian land?" Very simply, they don't exist. Many of the most common and important treaty provisions would be fulfilled by finally granting full and equal citizenship rights to all Indians.
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/12 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
TRUE:

-SCOTUS ruled against the Oneidas. (Sherrill Ruling)



the remainder of your post is incorrect


So if the rest of my post is INCORRECT that means the Natives DO have State or Federal recognized reservations??
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/12 07:57 AM

the cayuga tribe lacks a reservation in this area

NYS laws apply on state reservations

TS is not on a reservation - see trust application
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/12 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
So if the rest of my post is INCORRECT that means the Natives DO have State or Federal recognized reservations??


the rest of your post contradicts your first two lines of your post


Originally Posted By: teedoff27

TRUE:

-SCOTUS ruled against the Oneidas. (Sherrill Ruling)



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/12 08:07 AM

have you forgot your prior post?

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
You are correct .... Halbritter is responsible for collecting and submitting cigarette tax....

Originally Posted By: teedoff27

As far as gas tax... they SHOULD pay considering they are usually the same price per gallon as tax paying

Originally Posted By: teedoff27

Halbritter DOES submit tax on all food, beverage, and hotel taxes to the state for Turning Stone
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/12 08:15 AM

read it slow


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Where are the treaty provisions that authorize the federal government to hold the deed to all "Indian land?" Very simply, they don't exist. Many of the most common and important treaty provisions would be fulfilled by finally granting full and equal citizenship rights to all Indians.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/20/12 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
TRUE:
-SCOTUS ruled against the Oneidas. (Sherrill Ruling)
the remainder of your post is incorrect

So if the rest of my post is INCORRECT that means the Natives DO have State or Federal recognized reservations??
Obviously you did not read or understand the ruling in Cayuga v. Gould. The term is Qualified Reservations for tax purposes. But because some areas are not real reservations, the tribes do not have sovereignty over the land which is what Sherrill ruled and why Sherrill ruled the land was taxable.
Posted by: SilverRose

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/21/12 05:28 AM

Someone let the Occupiers know...maybe they can get them to pay up.... lol

The Indians are the millionaires...that should be enough reason for the Occupiers to go camp out at the casinos.... \:\)

(This is all said tongue in cheek...)

\:D
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/21/12 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
So if the rest of my post is INCORRECT that means the Natives DO have State or Federal recognized reservations??


must be why halftown called the local authorities for the truck hitting his building...

his 'police' must have been on a break
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 Billion Owed NY by Tribes - 01/22/12 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: LaughinWillow
Why should tribes honor agreements with you, when their agreements weren't honored?


What specific aspect of the treaty that was with your tribe was not honor?


Quote:
A treaty with one entity doesn't bind relations with other entities. Treaty provisions with Spain, for example, don't normally control our relations with Denmark. If federal Indian policy is required by treaty provisions why does the government recognize and deal with treaty and non-treaty tribes essentially the same? Why do they deal with different tribes who have different treaties, and treaty provisions, essentially the same? The vast majority of modern federal Indian policy is unrelated to Indian treaties.


What specific aspect of the treaty that was with your tribe was not honor?

still no answer after 7 years
interesting that not one tribal supporter has answered that question as it relates to any NY tribe
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/22/12 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?
.

Is this simple question too hard for you?
.


still no answer
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/22/12 08:53 AM



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 01/24/12 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The term is Qualified Reservations for tax purposes.


only written for cigarettes (state law)
correct?

all other taxes apply

and the state can change the wording when they want
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/02/12 09:40 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Duude
Why honor any Treaty now when you never have before?


What specific aspect of your treaty has not been honored?
.

Is this simple question too hard for you?
.


still no answer



rescind all treaties
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/07/12 10:06 AM

cuomo may have to take possession of the seneca tribe casinos and halbritters casino
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/07/12 01:57 PM

Hope he has fun trying
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/08/12 03:12 PM

the senecas are behind in payments
halbritter is behind in taxes
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/20/12 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Hope he has fun trying



why do you think he is changing the state constitution?
2016 the seneca compact runs out
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 02/23/12 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
http://www.whec.com/news/stories/s2509268.shtml

Posted at: 02/23/2012

Federal agents from the ATF, DEA, Customs and Bureau of Indian Affairs raided four smoke shops in the Tonawanda Indian Reservation looking for synthetic marijuana.

The agents were also looking for synthetic cocaine - sold as "bath salts" - and counterfeit clothing and untaxed cigarettes.

Agents served warrants at: Smoke Rings, Arrowhawk and Sacajewa Smoke Shops. We're also told they raided a smoke shop called "The Rez."

According to the release from the investigating agencies, "officials are investigating alleged distribution of synthetic THC sold under the names "Spice," "K2" and "bath salts.""

Investigators say no one was arrested today.

Today's raids come on the heels of News10NBC's I-Team investigation into the sale of synthetic marijuana under brand names like K2.

Our hidden camera investigation showed how corner stores and smoke shops in and around Rochester sell the product as potpourri but, in many cases, the stores know people are buying it to smoke and get a marijuana-like high.

As a reasult of our investigation, Sen. Chuck Schumer said he is putting his political weight behind a federal bill that would outlaw the sale of synthetic marijuana.

A similar bill in New York passed the state senate last year but was blocked from getting a vote in the state assembly. The same bill is about to face a second vote in the senate.

Tonight on News10NBC, you'll see the reservation smoke shops raided today. You'll hear from U.S. Attorney William Hochul on why they did it and from Sen. Schumer who is in Albany today trying to get support for the federal anti-synthetic marijuana bill.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/01/12 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.citizensalliance.org.
Indian Treaties and Current Federal Indian Policy
By Darrel Smith
Editor of the CERA Journal

Many people agree that federal Indian policy is harmful, even racist, but they think that these policies are required by the treaties that have been entered into between the federal government and Indian tribes. The United States Government entered into about 373 treaties with less than 150 Indian tribes between 1778 and 1868. Many tribes have multiple treaties. For example, there are twenty treaties with the Cherokee, forty-four with the Chippewa and fifteen with the Choctaw. The treaties and agreements with the various Sioux bands are recorded in a three volume book set. The Bureau of Indian Affairs recognizes 564 tribes (August, 2009). There are also, numerous agreements between the government and tribes starting in 1792 and occurring especially after the end of the treaty period in 1871.

The federal government recognizes hundreds of tribes that don't have a single treaty with the government. There isn't a single treaty between the government and Indian people in general. All the treaties were between the government and specific Indian tribes. A treaty with one entity doesn't bind relations with other entities. Treaty provisions with Spain, for example, don't normally control our relations with Denmark. If federal Indian policy is required by treaty provisions why does the government recognize and deal with treaty and non-treaty tribes essentially the same? Why do they deal with different tribes who have different treaties, and treaty provisions, essentially the same? The vast majority of modern federal Indian policy is unrelated to Indian treaties.

The Constitution makes the U. S. Constitution, laws and treaties the "supreme Law of the Land" over state authority with this clause:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."[Art.VI, Cl. 2]

(The "Legal Issues" section of our web site is one of the few places you can find a link to all the Indian treaties.) Indian treaties are valid historical documents equal to the highest law of the land and superior to state constitutions and laws, but are superseded by later federal treaties, legal agreements, laws, and, of course, the US Constitution itself. For example, in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S.

1 (1957) the Supreme Court said:

"There is nothing new or unique about what we say here. This Court has regularly and uniformly recognized the supremacy of the Constitution over a treaty. For example, in Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. 258, 267, it declared: "'The treaty power, as expressed in the Constitution, is in terms unlimited except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government or of its departments, and those arising from the nature of the government itself and of that of the States. It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the Constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the [354 U.S. 1, 18] government or in that of one of the States, or a cession of any portion of the territory of the latter, without its consent.' "This Court has also repeatedly taken the position that an Act of Congress, which must comply with the Constitution, is on a full parity with a treaty, and that when a statute which is subsequent in time is inconsistent with a treaty, the statute to the extent of conflict renders the treaty null. It would be completely anomalous to say that a treaty need not comply with the Constitution when such an agreement can be overridden by a statute that must conform to that instrument."

Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.

The Fourteenth Amendment, the Dawes and Burke Acts, the Citizenship Act of 1924 and many other laws and constitutional provisions legally should take precedence over any inconsistent provisions of earlier treaties. Indians on reservations still do not have the protections of our state and federal constitutions. Not only is the current situation not required by law, it violates any normal understanding of law. For an explanation of the status of tribal members on reservations read the article entitled Why Indians are Second Class Citizens available at the bottom of the "Home Page" on our web site at: http://www.citizensalliance.org .

Modern federal Indian policy is entirely dependent on the existence of tribal governments in order to function. If treaties didn't prevent the end of tribal governments as political entities as mandated by the Dawes and Burke Acts, then these same treaties certainly can't require the reestablishment of political tribal governments by the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. Justice Clarence Thomas referred to this while concurring in United States v. Lara:

"Next, the Court acknowledges that '[t]he treaty power does not literally authorize Congress to act legislatively, for it is an Article II power authorizing the President, not Congress, 'to make Treaties.'"… (quoting U.S. Const., Art. II, §2, cl. 2). This, of course, suffices to show that it provides no power to Congress, at least in the absence of a specific treaty. Cf. Missouri v. Holland, 252 U. S. 416 (1920). The treaty power does not, as the Court seems to believe, provide Congress with freefloating power to legislate as it sees fit on topics that could potentially implicate some unspecified treaty. Such an assertion is especially ironic in light of Congress' enacted prohibition on Indian treaties.

"The Federal Government cannot simultaneously claim power to regulate virtually every aspect of the tribes through ordinary domestic legislation and also maintain that the tribes possess anything resembling 'sovereignty.'"

Not only is Judge Thomas correct in his analysis that that you need a specific treaty provision, as has been noted above, you also need a specific treaty that hasn't been voided by later treaties, agreements, laws or the provisions of the Constitution itself. Then that treaty only controls relations with the specific tribe involved. These limitations guarantee that treaties cannot provide a valid legal basis for modern federal Indian policy. Just one question should be sufficient to clearly demonstrate this fact. Where are the treaty provisions that authorize the federal government to hold the deed to all "Indian land?" Very simply, they don't exist. Many of the most common and important treaty provisions would be fulfilled by finally granting full and equal citizenship rights to all Indians.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/02/12 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/h...ry.html?hpid=z2

Radical theory of first Americans places Stone Age Europeans in Delmarva 20,000 years ago
By Brian Vastag,
Published: February 29


time for the tribes to pay all their back taxes and eliminate reservations

US citizens
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/03/12 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.citizensalliance.org.

Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/07/12 08:15 AM

the tribal activists seem to enjoy all the rights and priviledges that 'our' nation offers
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/15/12 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Senecas, Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onondagas have one hell of a "pseudo nation" considering they can still sell gas, cigs, and gambling tax free to ANYONE \:\/


may not for long
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/16/12 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Senecas, Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onondagas have one hell of a "pseudo nation" considering they can still sell gas, cigs, and gambling tax free to ANYONE \:\/


may not for long


How many YEARS have you been saying that?? \:\/ Maybe another 10-15 years you may eventually be right
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/16/12 09:41 AM

have you heard the news out of albany?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/16/12 10:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20120315-142221
By DAN GUZEWICH Sentinel staff writer

The Oneida Indian Nation issued a warning in response to the state Legislature's approval of a plan to change the state Constitution to allow Las Vegas-style casinos outside of Indian territory.

"As this process moves forward to potential passage by consecutive state legislatures and a statewide referendum, New Yorkers should hold their elected officials accountable by insuring that they do not allow commercial gaming that serves only to drain community resources and cannibalize the success that local economies have achieved under the existing framework," said the Oneidas. "To that end, the Oneida Nation will remain engaged in this process to ensure that the interests of our community and the families of our 4,500 employees are protected."

The Oneida and Seneca are scared to death that they will have competition even though it will not be on a level playing field.

Yes, heaven forbid that tribal casinos siphoning money off to offshore bank accounts have to compete.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 10:40 AM

US citizenship 1924


Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:22 AM

Soverign Nation.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:24 AM

do they have a passport?
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:33 AM

Since 1977, members of the Iroquois nation have traveled on Iroquois Nation passports.

It has been a way of underscoring the sovereignty the nation claims is proven by the fact that there are treaties between the United States and the Iroquois, who are also known as the Haudenosaunee.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Since 1977, members of the Iroquois nation have traveled on Iroquois Nation passports.




1977 - lol
US citizenship 1924

is that why the british denied these passports?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Since 1977, members of the Iroquois nation have traveled on Iroquois Nation passports.



do they use them to go off the 'reservation'?
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:52 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Since 1977, members of the Iroquois nation have traveled on Iroquois Nation passports.



is that why the british denied these passports?



Why are they accepted in other countries?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Since 1977, members of the Iroquois nation have traveled on Iroquois Nation passports.
is that why the british denied these passports?
Why are they accepted in other countries?


you sided with the british and they refuse them - odd
US passports are used
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 11:57 AM

Are you denying Haudenosaunee passports are accepted by other countries?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 12:04 PM

are the passports required to go off the 'reservation'?
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 12:12 PM

Are you serious?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 12:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Are you serious?


if they are as sovereign as you claim they would need to when they travel to another country
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 12:24 PM

International travels use passports homie.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 12:37 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...reignty-ON.html

by Felicia Fonseca - Jul. 17, 2010

FLAGSTAFF � An American Indian lacrosse team's refusal to travel on passports not issued by the Iroquois confederacy goes to the heart of one of the most sensitive issues in Indian Country � sovereignty.

The rights of Native nations to govern themselves independently has long been recognized by federal treaties, but the extent of that recognition beyond U.S borders is under challenge in a post-Sept. 11 world.

After initially refusing to accept Iroquois-issued passports because the documents lack security features, the State Department gave the team a one-time waiver.

But leaders of the Iroquois Nationals squad announced Saturday that a last-ditch attempt to persuade British officials to recognize their passports had failed, meaning the team wouldn't play in its last scheduled game.

The team has maintained that traveling on anything other than an Iroquois-issued passport would be a strike against the players' identity. But the British government wouldn't budge in denying team members entry into England without U.S. or Canadian passports, keeping the Iroquois Nationals from competing at the World Lacrosse Championships in Manchester in the sport their ancestors helped create.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...l#ixzz1pOPlEys9
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 12:48 PM

Sovereign Nations

Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 01:13 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...reignty-ON.html

But some say the team's adamant position has gone too far.

Michael Smith, a Navajo living on the Southwestern reservation, said it's important to note that the Iroquois live in the U.S. on land he and his father fought to protect as Marines.

The Iroquois land isn't recognized globally as a country, so the team's efforts have been almost futile, he said. "You're flying overseas," he said. "Get your U.S. passport and go kick some butt."

Luanna Bear, a member of the Tulsa Creek Indian Community, part of the larger Muscogee Creek Nation in Oklahoma, said anyone who travels abroad should have the proper documents.

"A lot of tribes don't want to lose their identity, so that's what they're trying to keep," said Bear, 48. "But I believe you have to follow all laws."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...l#ixzz1pOYzgVaP
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 01:15 PM

Native American tribes who refuse by all laws of America are enemies of the US just like North Korea and Iran.
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 01:38 PM

"If you're acknowledged as a government-to-government entity, there should be an opportunity for them to issue their own passports and visas," Belcourt said.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...l#ixzz1pOfK8X2T
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
"If you're acknowledged as a government-to-government entity, there should be an opportunity for them to issue their own passports and visas," Belcourt said.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...l#ixzz1pOfK8X2T
If no other nations will not recognize them they are of no value.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
International travels use passports homie.


yawn....
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 02:25 PM

Untrue. Other nations, including Japan and Switzerland accept the Haudenosaunee passport.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 02:30 PM

do you use your passport when you go on the 'reservation'?
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 02:36 PM

Naw. I'm a comrade homie. They're cool with it.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 02:40 PM

not sovereign
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 02:42 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
But leaders of the Iroquois Nationals squad announced Saturday that a last-ditch attempt to persuade British officials to recognize their passports had failed, meaning the team wouldn't play in its last scheduled game.


sue the british
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:04 PM

Sovereign Nations
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:12 PM

Quote:
John Stossel: Freeloading doesn't help the freeloader Indians
Wednesday, March 30, 2011


"No group has been more "helped" by the American government than American Indians. Yet no group in America does worse.

Almost a quarter of Native Americans live in poverty. 66 percent are born to single mothers. They have short life spans. Indian activists say the solution is -surprise- more money from the government. But Washington already spends about $13 billion on programs for Indians every year.

There are special programs in 20 different Departments and Agencies: Empowering Tribal Nations Initiative, Advancing Nation to Nation Relationships, Protecting Indian Country, Improving Trust Land Management, New Energy Frontier Initiative, Climate Change Adaptation Initiative, Construction, Improving Trust Management, Tribal Priority Allocations, Resolving Land and Water Claims, Indian Land Consolidation Program. This is just a partial list.

I say government already does too much. Indians would be better off without government handouts. I have evidence: tribes not recognized by the federal government, tribes that get no special help, often do better
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:12 PM

Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


rescind the treaty as the tribe is in violation
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


rescind the treaty as the tribe is in violation



Sovereign Nations

Ain't happening homie.


Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.
rescind the treaty as the tribe is in violation
Sovereign Nations

Ain't happening homie.
They are in violation of an order of the Supreme Court of the United States of America! And they left the area 150 years ago! And we allow them to get away with this? That is total BS.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.citizensalliance.org.

Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.

Posted by: twocats

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
They are in violation of an order of the Supreme Court of the United States of America! And we allow them to get away with it? That is total BS.


Gasp! Oh no!

The Supreme Court once said that segregation in schools was legal (separate, but equal). The Supreme Court is not infallible.
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Native American tribes who refuse by all laws of America are enemies of the US just like North Korea and Iran.



Suggesting drones or bunker busters?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: kyle585
They are in violation of an order of the Supreme Court of the United States of America! And we allow them to get away with it? That is total BS.
Gasp! Oh no!

The Supreme Court once said that segregation in schools was legal (separate, but equal). The Supreme Court is not infallible.
Do you think the SC is wrong here?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Native American tribes who refuse by all laws of America are enemies of the US just like North Korea and Iran.
Suggesting drones or bunker busters?
I suggest the same punishment as all other American citizens who break the law. They go to jail.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda

There are three kinds of sovereign governments in the United States. Under the Constitution, the federal government is the “supreme sovereign,” and federal laws can pre-empt state laws. State governments also are sovereign; they retain any powers not specifically given to the federal government under the Constitution.

Only Congress can limit tribal sovereign authority; in the absence of congressional action, tribes are, in the words of the Supreme Court, “domestic dependent nations,’ which exercise inherent sovereign authority over their members and territories.”²


not sovereign


Posted by: twocats

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:45 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: kyle585
They are in violation of an order of the Supreme Court of the United States of America! And we allow them to get away with it? That is total BS.
Gasp! Oh no!

The Supreme Court once said that segregation in schools was legal (separate, but equal). The Supreme Court is not infallible.
Do you think the SC is wrong here?


I don't know enough about the issue to even begin to form an opinion on whether the court is right or wrong, but I do know that in order to change a law that is 'wrong' or unjust, oftentimes, someone must break it.
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:46 PM

Wrong homie.

Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse" Sovereign Nations.




Inherent Sovereignty

There are three kinds of sovereign governments in the United States. Under the Constitution, the federal government is the “supreme sovereign,” and federal laws can pre-empt state laws. State governments also are sovereign; they retain any powers not specifically given to the federal government under the Constitution.

The third kind of sovereignty is inherent. That means the authority to govern is not granted by another government, but by the consent of the people who are governed. Indian tribal governments, which existed long before Europeans arrived on the North American continent, have inherent sovereignty.

There are several generally accepted criteria for inherent sovereignty:
• There must be a distinct group of people, with a distinct language, a distinct religious or moral structure, and a distinct culture.

• The group must control and regulate a distinct geographic area, with commonly understood and accepted boundaries.

• The group must have its own governmental structure, formed by its own people, with typical governmental authority to create and enforce laws.

• The government must be recognized by another sovereign. For example, the United States recognizes the governments of Canada, Mexico, Great Britain, France, China, etc., as well as the governments of more than 500 Indian nations.

Centuries before the Europeans arrived in North America, Indian tribes had satisfied these criteria and dealt with each other on a government-to-government basis. By making treaties with the tribes, the European governments and later the U.S. government recognized their inherent sovereignty, which predates the federal and state governments.

Therefore, tribal sovereignty is not bestowed upon Indian governments by treaty. Rather, it is recognized by those treaties, and powers not explicitly addressed by treaty or by act of Congress are reserved to the Indian tribe. This “reserved rights doctrine” was spelled out in U.S. v. Winans (1905), involving treaty-recognized off-reservation fishing rights. The Supreme Court said that treaties represent “not a grant of rights to the Indians, but a grant of rights from them – a reservation of those not granted.”

Several court rulings have recognized and affirmed the existence of inherent sovereignty for Indian tribes. In Worcester v. Georgia (1832), Chief Justice Marshall wrote: “The Constitution, by declaring treaties already made, as well as those to be made, to be the supreme law of the land, has adopted and sanctioned the previous treaties with the Indian nations, and consequently admits their rank among those powers who are capable of making treaties.” Nearly 150 years later, in United States v. Wheeler (1978), the U.S. Supreme Court reaffirmed inherent tribal sovereignty: “Although physically within the territory of the United States and subject to ultimate federal control, they nonetheless remain a separate people, with the power of regulating their internal and social relations… The powers of Indian tribes are, in general, ‘inherent powers of a limited sovereignty which has never been extinguished.’” (Emphasis in original)

And in a 1982 tax case, Justice Thurgood Marshall wrote that Indian tribal sovereignty, though different from the sovereignty enjoyed by federal and state governments, should be judged by the same principles: “Without regard to its source, sovereign power, even when unexercised, is an enduring presence … and will remain intact unless surrendered in unmistakable terms.”¹

Only Congress can limit tribal sovereign authority; in the absence of congressional action, tribes are, in the words of the Supreme Court, “domestic dependent nations,’ which exercise inherent sovereign authority over their members and territories.”²

—————

1 Merrion v. Jicarilla Apache Tribe, 455 U.S. 148 (1982).
2 Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Citizen Band Potawatomi Indian Tribe, 498 U.S. 505, 509 (1991).
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda

Several court rulings have recognized and affirmed...

1 Merrion v. Jicarilla Apache Tribe, 455 U.S. 148 (1982).
2 Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Citizen Band Potawatomi Indian Tribe, 498 U.S. 505, 509 (1991).


only apply the court rulings that suit your needs...

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:50 PM

Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005


the tribe is in violation

all the oneida cigs shops are illegal
turning stone is illegal
the oneida tribe is behind in their $500 million proeprty tax bill
the oneida tribe does not qualify for trust land

Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda

Several court rulings have recognized and affirmed...

1 Merrion v. Jicarilla Apache Tribe, 455 U.S. 148 (1982).
2 Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Citizen Band Potawatomi Indian Tribe, 498 U.S. 505, 509 (1991).


only apply the court rulings that suit your needs...



By any means necessary. Tough it out settler.

Solidarity with indigenous people.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Solidarity with indigenous people.


while you enjoy the american dream...
yet another contradition on your part

yawn...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Tough it out settler.


you are the same
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Solidarity with indigenous people.


so when are you going to move to the 'reservation' to show your support?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
By any means necessary.


you going to call the local police when you need them?
lol
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/17/12 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation
Since when is The United States of America not a sovereign nation?

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
It's been getting worse. I've never once implied that ANY republicrat, including Obama. hasn't lied to protect the Empire.

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Solidarity with indigenous people.


do not trip over your own words...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/19/12 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda

Several court rulings have recognized and affirmed...

1 Merrion v. Jicarilla Apache Tribe, 455 U.S. 148 (1982).
2 Oklahoma Tax Commission v. Citizen Band Potawatomi Indian Tribe, 498 U.S. 505, 509 (1991).


only apply the court rulings that suit your needs...
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/19/12 11:13 PM

Got a beef with court rulings?

Write your Congressperson.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 08:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Got a beef with court rulings?
Write your Congressperson.


you sided with the british and lost
move on
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 09:30 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation
Since when is The United States of America not a sovereign nation?

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
It's been getting worse. I've never once implied that ANY republicrat, including Obama. hasn't lied to protect the Empire.

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Solidarity with indigenous people.


do not trip over your own words...


Ridiculous out of context cut and paste. Please attempt to explain their relationship your comment.

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 09:33 AM

all contradictions

too hard to understand?
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
all contradictions

too hard to understand?


Contradictions?
You're making the claim. Onus on you to explain.

Care to give it a try? ;\)


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 09:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation
Since when is The United States of America not a sovereign nation?

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Solidarity with indigenous people.


still too hard to understand?
Posted by: MeRightYouWrong

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Since when is The United States of America not a sovereign nation?

Since the Federal Reserve, UN/UNESCO, WTO, NAFTA, just to name a few....

Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 03/20/12 10:14 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation
Since when is The United States of America not a sovereign nation?

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Solidarity with indigenous people.


still too hard to understand?



It simply shows that a person can act in solidarity with anyone, anywhere. In this case indigenous people.

Wheres the contradiction?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/02/12 09:14 AM

you live on land that you claim is the tribes
you claim to be a US ciitizen and want equality but feel the tribes should be above all laws

as someone once said 'united we stand....'

tribal members were given US citizenship in 1924
they should be required to renounce it if they want to be part of the 'reservation' system
no voting in our elections
no running for office in our government
no use of taxpayer money to fund their government/lifestyle
...
...
...

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 04/30/12 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation
Since when is The United States of America not a sovereign nation?


You do not own the land
time to repay the tribes for the use of the land that you have occupied for all these years

failure to do so would prove you do not believe the land is the tribes land
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/02/12 04:50 PM

Quote:


Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.




the tribal members enjoy all the freedoms and priviledges that US citizenship gave them in 1924

if they did not renounce their US citizenship then they are not a 'seperate' nation
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/04/12 07:36 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


rescind the treaty as the tribe is in violation


the tribe likes to pick and choose which law to obey

stop all local, state and federal funding
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/07/12 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


rescind the treaty as the tribe is in violation



Sovereign Nations


domestic dependent

your words

without all the funding from the local, county, state and federal government the 'tribes' would fail to exist

how much money did the tribe spend last year for their military protection?

ZERO...........
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/08/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation


Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
The prospects of privately-owned militias defending interest in a free-market 'Utopia' here is a nightmare.

No Thanks.

The Perfect Free Market: Somalia

By Bob Cavnar
July 3, 2010

I've often wondered if there is an example of unrestrained free markets in the world that we could look to for an idea of exactly what it would look like. Certainly, the early days of our nation give an inkling, but we have always had a relatively strong central government, and an historic culture of common purpose. But that is not what free market libertarians advocate; they advocate every one for themselves; profit built into every activity including healthcare, utilities, mail delivery, even defense. So. Where can we seek an example of unrestrained free markets and their effects?

I found the answer Thursday while driving from Boston to Vermont for the 4th of July holiday. We were listening to an interview on Fresh Air, a great NPR program, with guest Jeffrey Gettleman, bureau chief for the New York Times in East Africa. Gettleman was talking about how African nations have fallen into anarchy, where governments have completely collapsed. His prime example was Somalia, where there hasn't been a central government for over 20 years. A quagmire of warlords, religious fanatics, and criminals, he described Somalia as "the most dangerous place in the world" with no central government, no services, no electricity, no law enforcement, no green zone for safety. He described the country as a culture based on individual trust bought with money. Personal relationships are key, and power is kept through violence and wealth.

Gettleman says that when you arrive at the airport in Mogadishu, you fill out a form with your name, address, and caliber of weapon you carry. For electricity, neighbors must band together to buy a generator, wire it to their homes, fuel it, and then defend it from being stolen. Businessmen sell their own stamps for private mail delivery. There is no central government, no law enforcement, no public utilities. The streets are ruled by gangs, and territory is protected with bullets. Everyone freely exercises their right to bear arms. Every day, all day. It is the perfect free market, a Libertarian's or Tea Partier's Utopia. And, it is hopeless.



somalia and the reservation system in the USA are the same
odd that you would support the reservation system in the USA but not somalia

where is your utopia?

insert foot in mouth...

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/09/12 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Wheres the contradiction?


every post of yours on this subject is a contradiction

is somalia your utopia?

draw us up some maps for direction

lol
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/09/12 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Wheres the contradiction?


every post of yours on this subject is a contradiction


Only in the realm of your idiotic false analogies homie.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/10/12 07:45 AM

one post you say they are a sovereign nation and another post you say they are domestic dependent

keep getting your information from halbritters website...lol

chase your tail
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/11/12 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda

Social and economic justice, regardless of class or caste...for ALL."


but you say the tribes are above the laws?
odd

will you save somalia also?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/12/12 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
I'm a MEMBER of a sovereign nation


Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
The prospects of privately-owned militias defending interest in a free-market 'Utopia' here is a nightmare.

No Thanks.

The Perfect Free Market: Somalia



we have somalia right here in the USA
have you visited a 'reservation' lately?

when will you protect the tribal members rights?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/14/12 09:14 AM

Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



same applies to all other tribes in NYS as there are no federal reservations in NYS

NO trust in NYS
Posted by: Ayuveda

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/14/12 09:27 AM

COINTELPRO still roaming the rez'?

Interesting.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/15/12 06:25 AM

have you been to the mohawk reservation?

without local, county, state and federal authorities it would be your somalia
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/18/12 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
The prospects of privately-owned militias defending interest in a free-market 'Utopia' here is a nightmare.

No Thanks.

The Perfect Free Market: Somalia



have you found utopia yet?
you said you would give us all directions...


\:\(
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/24/12 12:22 PM

In Finger Lakes Times:

by George Will
Washington Post
Writers Group

BOSTON — Blond, blue-eyed Elizabeth Warren, the Senate candidate and Harvard professor who cites “family lore” that she is 1/32nd Cherokee, was inducted into Oklahoma’s Hall of Fame last year. Her biography on oklahomaheritage.com says she “can track both sides of her family in Oklahoma long before statehood” (1907) and “she proudly tells everyone she encounters that she is ‘an Okie to my toes.’”

It does not mention any Cherokee great-great-great-grandmother. A DVD of the induction ceremony shows that neither Warren nor anyone else mentioned this. The kerfuffle that has earned Warren
such sobriquets as “Spouting Bull” and “Fauxcahontas” began with reports that Harvard Law School, in routine academic preening about diversity (in everything but thought), listed her as a minority faculty member, as did the University of Pennsylvania when she taught there.

She said some in her family had “high cheekbones like all of the Indians do.” The New England Historic Genealogical Society said a document confirmed the family lore of Warren’s Cherokee ancestry, but later backtracked. She has said she did not know Harvard was listing her as a minority in the 1990s, but Harvard was echoing her: From 1986 through 1995, starting before she came to Harvard, a directory published by the Association of American Law Schools listed her as a minority and says its listings are based on professors claiming minority status.

So, although no evidence has been found that Warren is part Indian, for years two universities listed her as such. She has identified herself as a minority, as when, signing her name as “Elizabeth Warren — Cherokee,” she submitted a crab recipe (Oklahoma crabs?) to a supposedly Indian cookbook.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/24/12 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
BOSTON — Blond, blue-eyed Elizabeth Warren, the Senate candidate and Harvard professor who cites “family lore” that she is 1/32nd Cherokee,


so she must be 31/32 US citizen
time to pay all her taxes and obey all US laws

just like ray and clint ;\)
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/24/12 04:53 PM

There are blue eyed blonde Lakota Sioux too. She probably claimed her minority status to get a free college education. Like many Indians, there appears to be no proof that she can verify. Sounds like she has a good con game going and if she is running for Senate now, maybe she should run for President.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/30/12 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
BOSTON — Blond, blue-eyed Elizabeth Warren, the Senate candidate and Harvard professor who cites “family lore” that she is 1/32nd Cherokee, was inducted into Oklahoma’s Hall of Fame last year. Her biography on oklahomaheritage.com says she “can track both sides of her family in Oklahoma long before statehood” (1907) and “she proudly tells everyone she encounters that she is ‘an Okie to my toes.’”



looks like the 31/32 of her must 'pay' the 1/32 of her back for all the 'injustices' the 31/32 did to the 1/32 of her

eliminate the BIA
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/30/12 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
There are blue eyed blonde Lakota Sioux too. She probably claimed her minority status to get a free college education. Like many Indians, there appears to be no proof that she can verify. Sounds like she has a good con game going and if she is running for Senate now, maybe she should run for President.
Sorry your prejudicial fantasies don't hold up... Warren attended George Washington University on a debate team scholarship. She finished her undergrad work at the University of Houston. No mention of minority status.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 05/31/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: kyle585
BOSTON — Blond, blue-eyed Elizabeth Warren, the Senate candidate and Harvard professor who cites “family lore” that she is 1/32nd Cherokee, was inducted into Oklahoma’s Hall of Fame last year. Her biography on oklahomaheritage.com says she “can track both sides of her family in Oklahoma long before statehood” (1907) and “she proudly tells everyone she encounters that she is ‘an Okie to my toes.’”
looks like the 31/32 of her must 'pay' the 1/32 of her back for all the 'injustices' the 31/32 did to the 1/32 of her

eliminate the BIA
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/201...can-status?lite

The story that just keeps on keepin’ on… “Democratic Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren acknowledged for the first time late Wednesday night that she told Harvard University and the University of Pennsylvania that she was Native American, but she continued to insist that race played no role in her recruitment,” the Boston Globe writes.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/06/12 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
There are blue eyed blonde Lakota Sioux too. She probably claimed her minority status to get a free college education. Like many Indians, there appears to be no proof that she can verify. Sounds like she has a good con game going and if she is running for Senate now, maybe she should run for President.
Sorry your prejudicial fantasies don't hold up... Warren attended George Washington University on a debate team scholarship. She finished her undergrad work at the University of Houston. No mention of minority status.


and who paid for her college bills?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/06/12 12:03 PM

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012306040042

Jun 4, 2012

Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Monday that he will “100 percent oppose” giving the state’s racetracks exclusive rights to build full-scale casinos in the state.

New York’s nine racetracks that have video-lottery terminals have been heavily lobbying Cuomo and the state Legislature to give them the rights to build casinos in the state. The state Legislature this year passed the first of two constitutional amendments to allow for up to seven casinos.

But Cuomo said he wants an open competition, and he won’t necessarily give the racinos the jackpot of being able to open casinos, which would have table games and other amenities that they don’t currently have. The Democratic governor also said he might consider casinos in western New York, despite the exclusive gaming rights of the Seneca Nation of Indians.


In western New York, the casino issue is complicated because the Seneca Nation of Indians have exclusive gaming rights in the region, stretching from Buffalo and east of Rochester. But the tribe has withheld more than $300 million in payments to the state in recent years, claiming the current three racinos in the region – Batavia, Finger Lakes and Buffalo — are infringing on their rights.

Cuomo said if the Senecas don’t pay, then their exclusivity might be nullified. The Senecas have three casinos in western New York.

He suggested that the Senecas’ holdout might allow for private casinos to be located in western New York.

“Contracts cannot be one-sided instruments. The contract basically said for these payments, the state will grant this exclusivity,” Cuomo said. “Well if there are no payments, then you would argue there is no exclusivity. If you want the exclusivity — which was our end of the contract — then you would have to live up to your end of the contract.”

Seneca Nation President Robert Odawi Porter declined to comment through a spokesman.
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/07/12 05:38 AM

All Prince Andrew is doing is shooting himself in the foot. There are already state run Racinos all over NY... Start up money has already been spent ....why not upgrade the existing Racinos to Vegas Style. You have Vernon Downs Racino which is mere miles from Turning Stone that can attract some of their business , Fingerlakes Racino that can attract some of the Turning Stone business from the Fingerlakes area, and Batavia Downs Racino that could attract some of the Western NY players looking for vegas style games away from Alleghany and Seneca Casinos.

Instead Prince Andrew wants to spend more money to build "other casinos" that will only attract vegas style players away from the already fragile NYS run Racinos and possibly closing them. Wasting all the money spent on them.

I have said this before.... POKER is HUGE and has been proven to be a game of SKILL not CHANCE....Why not be like other states(i.e. California,Florida) and have state run poker rooms all over NYS? Start up and operating costs would be minimal and could prove to be a real cash-cow. Not to mention drawing players away from Turning Stone, Seneca-Niagara, Alleghany, and Mohegan Sun in Vermont Foxwoods in Conneticut. If drawing business away from the Natives is truly their motive \:\/

Currently North Country Players go to Turning Stone or Mohegan Sun to play Poker. Down State poker players go to Foxwoods or Atlantic City. Central NY and Fingerlakes Region go to turning Stone, Southern Tier goes to the new casino in Bethel, PA. and Western NY goes to Alleghany or Seneca-Niagara to play Poker. All those options whether it be native or out of state results in LOST tax $$'s and revenue for NYS!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/11/12 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
All those options whether it be native or out of state results in LOST tax $$'s and revenue for NYS!


since when did lost tax dollars/revenue for NYS be your main concern?

turning stone is illegal (see ruling) and the state should just take it over
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/12/12 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
by George Will
Washington Post
Writers Group

BOSTON — Blond, blue-eyed Elizabeth Warren, the Senate candidate and Harvard professor who cites “family lore” that she is 1/32nd Cherokee, was inducted into Oklahoma’s Hall of Fame last year. Her biography on oklahomaheritage.com says she “can track both sides of her family in Oklahoma long before statehood” (1907) and “she proudly tells everyone she encounters that she is ‘an Okie to my toes.’”


is she also claiming to be a US citizen?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/12/12 09:15 AM

Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


have the state take over turning stone

Quote:
In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.


Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/12/12 01:18 PM

Considering a legislators Husband is the owner of the catering company that owns and runs Turning Stone's food and beverage service hell will freeze over before the state will ever take over
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/12/12 01:26 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
All those options whether it be native or out of state results in LOST tax $$'s and revenue for NYS!


since when did lost tax dollars/revenue for NYS be your main concern?

turning stone is illegal (see ruling) and the state should just take it over


My point was.... If Prince Andrew and his Goons were really interested in taking business away from the Natives like they claim ....then they would legalize State Run Poker state-wide to take away from Seneca, Turning Stone, Penn., CT, New Hampshire's draw of Legal Poker. He would also allow the Racinos that are already built and paid for to provide *Vegas Style* gaming.

However by Prince Andrew NOT allowing the Racino's to expand and ignoring and not legalizing State Run Poker.... he is still giving the Native Casinos the upper-hand

As far as your ruling, it has NEVER been enforced so it is USELESS!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/20/12 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
As far as your ruling, it has NEVER been enforced so it is USELESS!


the ruling can be used to deny trust as trust cannot be applied if illegal activities are occuring on land that is being applied for trust

the ruling can also be used to rescind the treaties as the tribes are in violation of the treaties by the illegal activities they are engaged in
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/20/12 10:03 AM

Recind the treaties?

Laughable at best bz.
Posted by: cwjga

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/20/12 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
As far as your ruling, it has NEVER been enforced so it is USELESS!


the ruling can be used to deny trust as trust cannot be applied if illegal activities are occuring on land that is being applied for trust

the ruling can also be used to rescind the treaties as the tribes are in violation of the treaties by the illegal activities they are engaged in


No reason to rescind the treaties. The native americans go to court to get more money every so often bassed on the fact the treaties were never ratified.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/20/12 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Recind the treaties?

Laughable at best bz.



sorry if you have not read any NYS treaty


the treaties were rescinded when the tribal members were given US citizenship in 1924


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.citizensalliance.org.
Indian Treaties and Current Federal Indian Policy
By Darrel Smith
Editor of the CERA Journal

Many people agree that federal Indian policy is harmful, even racist, but they think that these policies are required by the treaties that have been entered into between the federal government and Indian tribes. The United States Government entered into about 373 treaties with less than 150 Indian tribes between 1778 and 1868. Many tribes have multiple treaties. For example, there are twenty treaties with the Cherokee, forty-four with the Chippewa and fifteen with the Choctaw. The treaties and agreements with the various Sioux bands are recorded in a three volume book set. The Bureau of Indian Affairs recognizes 564 tribes (August, 2009). There are also, numerous agreements between the government and tribes starting in 1792 and occurring especially after the end of the treaty period in 1871.

The federal government recognizes hundreds of tribes that don't have a single treaty with the government. There isn't a single treaty between the government and Indian people in general. All the treaties were between the government and specific Indian tribes. A treaty with one entity doesn't bind relations with other entities. Treaty provisions with Spain, for example, don't normally control our relations with Denmark. If federal Indian policy is required by treaty provisions why does the government recognize and deal with treaty and non-treaty tribes essentially the same? Why do they deal with different tribes who have different treaties, and treaty provisions, essentially the same? The vast majority of modern federal Indian policy is unrelated to Indian treaties.

The Constitution makes the U. S. Constitution, laws and treaties the "supreme Law of the Land" over state authority with this clause:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."[Art.VI, Cl. 2]

(The "Legal Issues" section of our web site is one of the few places you can find a link to all the Indian treaties.) Indian treaties are valid historical documents equal to the highest law of the land and superior to state constitutions and laws, but are superseded by later federal treaties, legal agreements, laws, and, of course, the US Constitution itself. For example, in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S.

1 (1957) the Supreme Court said:

"There is nothing new or unique about what we say here. This Court has regularly and uniformly recognized the supremacy of the Constitution over a treaty. For example, in Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. 258, 267, it declared: "'The treaty power, as expressed in the Constitution, is in terms unlimited except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government or of its departments, and those arising from the nature of the government itself and of that of the States. It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the Constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the [354 U.S. 1, 18] government or in that of one of the States, or a cession of any portion of the territory of the latter, without its consent.' "This Court has also repeatedly taken the position that an Act of Congress, which must comply with the Constitution, is on a full parity with a treaty, and that when a statute which is subsequent in time is inconsistent with a treaty, the statute to the extent of conflict renders the treaty null. It would be completely anomalous to say that a treaty need not comply with the Constitution when such an agreement can be overridden by a statute that must conform to that instrument."

Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.

The Fourteenth Amendment, the Dawes and Burke Acts, the Citizenship Act of 1924 and many other laws and constitutional provisions legally should take precedence over any inconsistent provisions of earlier treaties. Indians on reservations still do not have the protections of our state and federal constitutions. Not only is the current situation not required by law, it violates any normal understanding of law. For an explanation of the status of tribal members on reservations read the article entitled Why Indians are Second Class Citizens available at the bottom of the "Home Page" on our web site at: http://www.citizensalliance.org .

Modern federal Indian policy is entirely dependent on the existence of tribal governments in order to function. If treaties didn't prevent the end of tribal governments as political entities as mandated by the Dawes and Burke Acts, then these same treaties certainly can't require the reestablishment of political tribal governments by the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. Justice Clarence Thomas referred to this while concurring in United States v. Lara:

"Next, the Court acknowledges that '[t]he treaty power does not literally authorize Congress to act legislatively, for it is an Article II power authorizing the President, not Congress, 'to make Treaties.'"… (quoting U.S. Const., Art. II, §2, cl. 2). This, of course, suffices to show that it provides no power to Congress, at least in the absence of a specific treaty. Cf. Missouri v. Holland, 252 U. S. 416 (1920). The treaty power does not, as the Court seems to believe, provide Congress with freefloating power to legislate as it sees fit on topics that could potentially implicate some unspecified treaty. Such an assertion is especially ironic in light of Congress' enacted prohibition on Indian treaties.

"The Federal Government cannot simultaneously claim power to regulate virtually every aspect of the tribes through ordinary domestic legislation and also maintain that the tribes possess anything resembling 'sovereignty.'"

Not only is Judge Thomas correct in his analysis that that you need a specific treaty provision, as has been noted above, you also need a specific treaty that hasn't been voided by later treaties, agreements, laws or the provisions of the Constitution itself. Then that treaty only controls relations with the specific tribe involved. These limitations guarantee that treaties cannot provide a valid legal basis for modern federal Indian policy. Just one question should be sufficient to clearly demonstrate this fact. Where are the treaty provisions that authorize the federal government to hold the deed to all "Indian land?" Very simply, they don't exist. Many of the most common and important treaty provisions would be fulfilled by finally granting full and equal citizenship rights to all Indians.


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/24/12 08:31 AM

Quote:

"A decision this week by the U.S. Supreme Court is seen as a setback for Indian tribes. The case involves the Gun Lake Tribe and its casino near Grand Rapids.

A neighbor is suing saying the casino is lowering property values and ruining the neighborhood.

As tribal attorneys see it, the Court opened a way for just about anyone to challenge the legitimacy of tribal lands. Land taken into trust by the federal over the last several years is especially vulnerable."

Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/24/12 01:43 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Recind the treaties?

Laughable at best bz.



sorry if you have not read any NYS treaty


the treaties were rescinded when the tribal members were given US citizenship in 1924


Canandaigua Treaty of 1794, one of the first treaties the United States entered into. Also known as the Pickering Treaty, between the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) and the United States of America.

Dream on Bz, the treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee confederacy.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/24/12 04:14 PM

seems you have not read it as the tribes are in violation of it
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/24/12 04:59 PM

Is your Congressperson pushing to rescind the Pickering Treaty?

Highly unlikey.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/12 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
the Pickering Treaty?


post a copy of this treaty that you feel is valid
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/12 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Canandaigua Treaty of 1794, one of the first treaties the United States entered into. Also known as the Pickering Treaty, between the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) and the United States of America.

Dream on Bz, the treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee confederacy.
Does the treaty say they do not have to pay sales taxes on their sales of cancer sticks to non-Indians at their convenience stores in Seneca Falls and Union Strings? Does it say they do not have to pay property taxes as all other American citizens must pay?

3/31/12: Cayugas owe Seneca County $606,643.18 in back property taxes!
Posted by: cwjga

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/12 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
seems you have not read it as the tribes are in violation of it


What does it matter. That is not the treaty that is the issue, not the tribe that is the issue.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/12 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
the Pickering Treaty?


post a copy of this treaty that you feel is valid



You're being ridiculous. Have a problem with the Canandaigua Treaty of 1794? Contact your Congressional rep.

Let us know how that works out for ya.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/12 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Canandaigua Treaty of 1794, one of the first treaties the United States entered into. Also known as the Pickering Treaty, between the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) and the United States of America.

Dream on Bz, the treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee confederacy.
Does the treaty say they do not have to pay sales taxes on their sales of cancer sticks to non-Indians at their convenience stores in Seneca Falls and Union Strings? Does it say they do not have to pay property taxes as all other American citizens must pay?

3/31/12: Cayugas owe Seneca County $606,643.18 in back property taxes!
No comment I see.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/25/12 12:41 PM

Chill Kyle. My comment was toward bz's delusion of the Canandaigua Treaty being recinded, not your itch about sales taxes.
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/26/12 05:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Chill Kyle. My comment was toward bz's delusion of the Canandaigua Treaty being recinded, not your itch about sales taxes.
It is all the same problem, isn't it? The Indians are treated like super citizens who do not have to follow the same laws as other Americans.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/26/12 06:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
the Pickering Treaty?
post a copy of this treaty that you feel is valid
You're being ridiculous. Have a problem with the Canandaigua Treaty of 1794?


you must not even be aware of the treaty terms
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 06/26/12 06:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
My comment was toward bz's delusion of the Canandaigua Treaty being recinded, not your itch about sales taxes.


are you suggesting the tribes pay their share of the sales taxes?
Posted by: kyle585

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/04/12 08:46 AM

From today's FL Times:

By DAVID L. SHAW
dshaw@fltimes.com

SENECA FALLS –– The Cayuga Indian Nation of New York has purchased another parcel.

On June 26, the Nation acquired the deed to a 0.53-acre parcel at 2947 E. Bayard Street Extension from sellers Michael L. and Kelly S. Shores. The property is assessed at $88,000 and the tribe bought it for $117,000.

The sale was the first for the Cayugas since Feb. 22. The Nation has purchased 56 parcels in Seneca Falls totaling just over 1,003 acres. They also own three parcels in the town of Varick totaling 145.8 acres and 243 acres of land in Cayuga County.

The Nation pays property taxes when the deeds are transferred but does not pay taxes once it acquires the property. It currently has more than $606,000 in unpaid property taxes in Seneca County going back to 2008. The latest purchase is the 13th parcel on East Bayard Street Extension bought by the Cayugas since March 2008. The tribe has paid nearly $8.7 million for land assessed at 5.9 million.
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/07/12 02:27 AM

I'm looking to purchase property in Seneca Falls just so I can sell it for $40,000 MORE than I paid for it to the Cayugas!!!
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/09/12 09:42 AM

you do not have that kind of money
sorry
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/09/12 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
the Pickering Treaty?

post a copy of this treaty that you feel is valid

You're being ridiculous. Have a problem with the Canandaigua Treaty of 1794?


if you even read it and understood it you would be aware that it is the tribe that is in violation of the treaty that you speak so fond of

feel free to post a copy of the treaty
yawn...

Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/09/12 10:01 AM

Serious stuff settler.
Have you tried a sit-in at your Congressperson's office?

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/09/12 10:11 AM

have you given your land back to the tribe yet?
settler
yawn...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/10/12 06:35 AM

how do you occupy land that is not yours?
yawn...
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/12 07:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Serious stuff settler.
Have you tried a sit-in at your Congressperson's office?



It was already tried..... It was supposed to be a HUGE protest at Mikey BOZOllio's office that was supposed to be covered by RNews and major newspapers.....the story was dumped! Only 13 people showed and they all hid behind their protest signs......and OF COURSE Kyle and Bluzone didn't even go!!!!
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/13/12 03:45 PM


So much for the UEC roadshow.
Back to the fort for coffee and doughnuts.
Posted by: teedoff27

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/14/12 12:31 PM

Yup....... the protest was a JOKE just like Paterson Day, The Trucker's Rally, and everything else chicken little(kyle) and Harold Camping (bluezone) have warned against!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/16/12 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

So much for the UEC roadshow.
Back to the fort for coffee and doughnuts.


Fifty Shades of Capitalism by Teonan

how is capitalism working for ya?

who is holding you back?

are you against equality?


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/16/12 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Yup.......


did you read the newspaper?

Cayugas threaten to evict owners. By Scott Rapp. A Cayuga Indians' spokesman said Wednesday his nation will seek eviction of all 7,000 property owners in the Cayuga...
Posted by: LeeAnnRagains

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/20/12 02:39 PM

Newsroom You are here: EPA HomeNewsroom News Releases By Date EPA Awards $78,000 to the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe to
EPA Awards $78,000 to the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe to Support Its Water Quality Program
Release Date: 07/19/2012
Contact Information: Dave Bary or Jennah Durant at 214-665-2200 or r6press@epa.gov

(DALLAS July 19, 2012) The Environmental Protection Agency has awarded the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma $78,000 to provide continued support for the tribes water pollution control program. The funds will be used to take water samples on tribal lands and compile data which may show changes over time to determine if a more thorough watershed management program is needed. Sampling data will determine whether water quality standards are being met, note any changes in the quality or condition of the tribes water and provide planning tools to improve the function and health of stream ecosystems.

The mission of the EPA is to protect public health and the environment. The EPA supports our nations tribes in all aspects of the work needed to improve the water quality of tribal land watersheds. This cooperative spirit supports work to protect water quality that ensures the health of watersheds that cross state and tribal boundaries.


Additional Information on EPA grants is available at http://www.epa.gov/region6/gandf/index.htm

More about activities in EPA Region 6 is available at http://www.epa.gov/aboutepa/region6.html


# # #
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/12 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Yup.......


did you read the newspaper?

Cayugas threaten to evict owners. By Scott Rapp. A Cayuga Indians' spokesman said Wednesday his nation will seek eviction of all 7,000 property owners in the Cayuga...


bet it would be different if you got evicted by the tribe
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/12 10:37 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
why not upgrade the existing Racinos to Vegas Style.
Because NEW casino backers would pay him off in campaign funds and pocket money. Remember, Mario is his advisor. Genting has already proposed a $4 Billion casino near NYC. The racinos don't have that kind of money.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/12 10:42 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
If Prince Andrew and his Goons were really interested in taking business away from the Natives like they claim
WHEN DID THEY EVER CLAIM THAT ??? Link?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/12 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: teedoff27
As far as your ruling, it has NEVER been enforced so it is USELESS!
That ruling has been used and enforced dozens of times throughout the country since it was made and presently the State is just waiting for the Second Circuit to accept an en banc hearing. The last ruling from the Second Circuit was that it is strictly a matter of State tax law. But waiting for the Second Circuit is like having constipation. They sat on the case for over a year before they ruled against the counties based on sovereign immunity and SCOTUS snatched up the appeal immediately. But SCOTUS passed the ball back because the Oneida got scared that SCOTUS would rescind their sovereign immunity. There is no law granting such, but was made common law based on a court ruling which could be overturned.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/30/12 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: cwjga
No reason to rescind the treaties. The native americans go to court to get more money every so often bassed on the fact the treaties were never ratified.
HAH - that's funny! Which treaty, what court?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 12:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Canandaigua Treaty of 1794, one of the first treaties the United States entered into. Also known as the Pickering Treaty, between the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) and the United States of America.

Dream on Bz, the treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee confederacy.
OBVIOUSLY you have not read that treaty!

One: It was one of the first treaties between the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) and the United States of America. But the Six Nations government no longer exists or functions as a government. Some of them may get together and smoke some rope or have a few bewskies, but that is pretty much it.

Two: In regard to the Cayuga and Oneida all it did was rule the prior State treaties as valid.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 12:16 AM

Not nearly as funny as SCLO's Wisner Kinne's
"They worship corn and beans, we worship the Creator"
white-supremacy rants.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 12:17 AM

1794 Treaty of Canandaigua
From CERA web page http://www.citizensalliance.org/ links – go to Major Issues, scroll down to Treaty Issues. Click in the appropriate letter & tribe for treaties pertaining.
INDIAN AFFAIRS: LAWS AND TREATIES
Vol. II, Treaties
Compiled and edited by Charles J. Kappler Washington: Government Printing Office, 1904.
TREATY WITH THE SIX NATIONS, 1794.
Nov. 11, 1794. | 7 Stat., 44. | Proclamation, Jan. 21, 1795.
A Treaty between the United States of America, and the Tribes of Indians called the Six Nations.
The President of the United States having determined to hold a conference with the Six Nations of Indians, for the purpose of removing from their minds all causes of complaint, and establishing a firm and permanent friendship with them; and Timothy Pickering being appointed sole agent for that purpose; and the agent having met and conferred with the Sachems, Chiefs and Warriors of the Six Nations, in a general council: Now, in order to accomplish the good design of this conference, the parties have agreed on the following articles; which, when ratified by the President, with the advice and consent of the Senate of the United States, shall be binding on them and the Six Nations.
ARTICLE 1.
Peace and friendship are hereby firmly established, and shall be perpetual, between the United States and the Six Nations.
ARTICLE 2.
The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga and Cayuga Nations, in their respective treaties with the state of New-York, and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends residing thereon and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof: but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase.
ARTICLE 3.
The land of the Seneka nation is bounded as follows: Beginning on Lake Ontario, at the north-west corner of the land they sold to Oliver Phelps, the line runs westerly along the lake, as far as O-yōng-wong-yeh Creek, at Johnson's Landing-place, about four miles eastward from the fort of Niagara; then southerly up that creek to its main fork, then straight to the main fork of Stedman's creek, which empties into the river Niagara, above fort Schlosser, and then onward, from that fork, continuing the same straight course, to that river; (this line, from the mouth of O-yōng-wong-yeh Creek to the river Niagara, above fort Schlosser, being the eastern boundary of a strip of land, extending from the same line to Niagara river, which the Seneka nation ceded to the King of Great-Britain, at a treaty held about thirty years ago, with Sir William Johnson;) then the line runs along the river Niagara to Lake Erie; then along Lake Erie to the north-east corner of a triangular piece of land which the United States conveyed to the state of Pennsylvania, as by the President's patent, dated the third day of March, 1792; then due south to the northern boundary of that state; then due east to the south-west corner of the land sold by the Seneka nation to Oliver Phelps; and then north and northerly, along Phelps's line, to the place of beginning on Lake Ontario. Now, the United States acknowledge all the land within the aforementioned boundaries, to be the property of the Seneka nation; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb the Seneka nation, nor any of the Six Nations, or of their Indian friends residing thereon and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof: but it shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase.
ARTICLE 4.
The United States having thus described and acknowledged what lands belong to the Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas and Senekas, and engaged never to claim the same, nor to disturb them, or any of the Six Nations, or their Indian friends residing thereon and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof: Now, the Six Nations, and each of them, hereby engage that they will never claim any other lands within the boundaries of the United States; nor ever disturb the people of the United States in the free use and enjoyment thereof.
ARTICLE 5.
The Seneka nation, all others of the Six Nations concurring, cede to the United States the right of making a wagon road from Fort Schlosser to Lake Erie, as far south as Buffaloe Creek; and the people of the United States shall have the free and undisturbed use of this road, for the purposes of travelling and transportation. And the Six Nations, and each of them, will forever allow to the people of the United States, a free passage through their lands, and the free use of the harbors and rivers adjoining and within their respective tracts of land, for the passing and securing of vessels and boats, and liberty to land their cargoes where necessary for their safety.
ARTICLE 6.
In consideration of the peace and friendship hereby established, and of the engagements entered into by the Six Nations; and because the United States desire, with humanity and kindness, to contribute to their comfortable support; and to render the peace and friendship hereby established, strong and perpetual; the United States now deliver to the Six Nations, and the Indians of the other nations residing among and united with them, a quantity of goods of the value of ten thousand dollars. And for the same considerations, and with a view to promote the future welfare of the Six Nations, and of their Indian friends aforesaid, the United States will add the sum of three thousand dollars to the one thousand five hundred dollars, heretofore allowed them by an article ratified by the President, on the twenty-third day of April, 1792;amaking in the whole, four thousand five hundred dollars; which shall be expended yearly forever, in purchasing clothing, domestic animals, implements of husbandry, and other utensils suited to their circumstances, and in compensating useful artificers, who shall reside with or near them, and be employed for their benefit. The immediate application of the whole annual allowance now stipulated, to be made by the superintendent appointed by the President for the affairs of the Six Nations, and their Indian friends aforesaid.
ARTICLE 7.
Lest the firm peace and friendship now established should be interrupted by the misconduct of individuals, the United States and Six Nations agree, that for injuries done by individuals on either side, no private revenge or retaliation shall take place; but, instead thereof, complaint shall be made by the party injured, to the other: By the Six Nations or any of them, to the President of the United States, or the Superintendent by him appointed: and by the Superintendent, or other person appointed by the President, to the principal chiefs of the Six Nations, or of the nation to which the offender belongs: and such prudent measures shall then be pursued as shall be necessary to preserve our peace and friendship unbroken; until the legislature (or great council) of the United States shall make other equitable provision for the purpose.
NOTE. It is clearly understood by the parties to this treaty, that the annuity stipulated in the sixth article, is to be applied to the benefit of such of the Six Nations and of their Indian friends united with them as aforesaid, as do or shall reside within the boundaries of the United States: For the United States do not interfere with nations, tribes or families, of Indians elsewhere resident.
In witness whereof, the said Timothy Pickering, and the sachems and war chiefs of the said Six Nations, have hereto set their hands and seals.
Done at Konondaigua, in the State of New York, the eleventh day of November, in the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-four.
Timothy Pickering, [L. S.]
Onoyeahnee, his x mark, [L. S.]
Konneatorteeooh, his x mark, or Handsome Lake, [L. S.]
Tokenhyouhau, his x mark, alias Captain Key, [L. S.]
Oneshauee, his x mark, [L. S.]
Hendrick Aupaumut, [L. S.]
David Neesoonhuk, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kanatsoyh, alias Nicholas Kusik, [L. S.]
Sohhonteoquent, his x mark, [L. S.]
Ooduhtsait, his x mark, [L. S.]
Konoohqung, his x mark, [L. S.]
Tossonggaulolus, his x mark, [L. S.]
John Skenendoa, his x mark, [L. S.]
Oneatorleeooh, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kussauwatau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Eyootenyootauook, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kohnyeaugong, his x mark, alias Jake Stroud, [L. S.]
Shaguiesa, his x mark, [L. S.]
Teeroos, his x mark, alias Captain Prantup, [L. S.]
Sooshaoowau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Henry Young Brant, his x mark, [L. S.]
Sonhyoowauna, his x mark, or Big Sky, [L. S.]
Onaahhah, his x mark, [L. S.]
Hotoshahenh, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kaukondanaiya, his x mark, [L. S.]
Nondiyauka, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kossishtowau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Oojaugenta, his x mark, or Fish Carrier, [L. S.]
Toheonggo, his x mark, [L. S.]
Ootaguasso, his x mark, [L. S.]
Joonondauwaonch, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kiyauhaonh, his x mark, [L. S.]
Ootaujeaugenh, his x mark, or Broken Axe, [L. S.]
Tauhoondos, his x mark, or Open the Way, [L. S.]
Twaukewasha, his x mark, [L. S.]
Sequidongquee, his x mark, alias Little Beard, [L. S.]
Kodjeote, his x mark, or Half Town, [L. S.]
Kenjauaugus, his x mark, or Stinking Fish, [L. S.]
Soonohquaukau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Twenniyana, his x mark, [L. S.]
Jishkaaga, his x mark, or Green Grasshopper, alias Little Billy, [L. S.]
Tuggehshotta, his x mark, [L. S.]
Tehongyagauna, his x mark, [L. S.]
Tehongyoowush, his x mark, [L. S.]
Konneyoowesot, his x mark, [L. S.]
Tioohquottakauna, his x mark, or Woods on Fire, [L. S.]
Taoundaudeesh, his x mark, [L. S.]
Honayawus, his x mark, alias Farmer's Brother, [L. S.]
Soggooyawauthau, his x mark, alias Red Jacket, [L. S.]
Konyootiayoo, his x mark, [L. S.]
Sauhtakaongyees, his x mark, or Two Skies of a length, [L. S.]
Ounnashattakau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kaungyanehquee, his x mark, [L. S.]
Sooayoowau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kaujeagaonh, his x mark, or Heap of Dogs, [L. S.]
Soonoohshoowau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Thaoowaunias, his x mark, [L. S.]
Soonongjoowau, his x mark, [L. S.]
Kiantwhauka, his x mark, alias Cornplanter, [L. S.]
Kaunehshonggoo, his x mark, [L. S.]
Witnesses:
Israel Chapin.
William Shepard, jr.
James Smedley.
John Wickham.
Augustus Porter.
James K. Garnsey.
William Ewing.
Israel Chapin, jr.
Horatio Jones,
Joseph Smith,
Jasper Parish,
Interpreters.
Henry Abeele.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 12:55 AM

The Confederacy does not exist?

Try that line on the chiefs and clan mothers during the next Grand Council at Onondaga.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 03:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The Confederacy does not exist?

Try that line on the chiefs and clan mothers during the next Grand Council at Onondaga.

HAH - that's funny! Which treaty, what court? You have not a clue. Is that where you buy YOUR rope to smoke?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
during the next Grand Council at Onondaga.
Ask them how their land claim is going? HAH ! Wisnor must have really gotten under your skin to do so well at stopping the land claims. Must be his creator wasn't a white buffalo. Better smoke some more rope. OH, and show everyone what you were blowing off about in that great Canandaigua Treaty that you never read.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The Confederacy does not exist?


see any clause about a BIA, IHS, free housing, free medical care, trust land, free schooling, US citizenship, casinos...


the list goes on and on and on
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Canandaigua Treaty of 1794, one of the first treaties the United States entered into. Also known as the Pickering Treaty, between the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) and the United States of America.

Dream on Bz, the treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee confederacy.


In regard to the Cayuga and Oneida all it did was rule the prior State treaties as valid.


Teonan fails to see that
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 11:39 AM

Save your spin settler. Do you seriously believe the Confederacy no longer exist? Think again Richie.

Seems you did some serious drinking from the tainted well of that dirty old racist Wisnor.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 07/31/12 09:47 PM

And you STILL cannot site ANY relevant clause in the treaty that you never read.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/01/12 03:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
But the Six Nations government no longer exists or functions as a government.


Have you shared that with the 50 Hoyenah (chiefs)of the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations)Confederacy who assemble at the Grand Council of Onondaga? I'm sure you'd get a polite chuckle over that malarkey.

FYI (again ad nauseam), the Pickering Treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. If that amps your snit Richie go squeak to your Congressperson. You know the drill by now.


Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/01/12 09:51 PM

I agree it IS recognized. It's too bad you can't comprehend it.
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/01/12 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I agree it IS recognized. It's too bad you can't comprehend it.



Good. Now you can educate Bz to that reality.

Next stop - Six Nations Council House. Clan mothers and chiefs might have a thing or two to teach you about the existance of their government.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 03:32 AM

It is obvious you cannot become educated because Chief Halfwit himself testified in court that all six tribes of the Confederacy had to agree to any land transaction or act of War and the Mohawk were not even present for the Canandaigua treaty. You may well be a meth runner for 50 alleged chiefs but they do not represent all six tribes of what used to be the Confederacy. They are more so factionalized today than they were 200 years ago when the Mohawk and Oneida were fighting each other in the American Revolution. Today there are at least three Mohawk governments, at least three Cayuga factions all claiming to be the government, a so called Men's Council and CEO running the Oneida and hardly any of the traditional Iroquois governments or clan mothers, except maybe the Onondaga, are even recognized as a government by the U.S.

The U.S. recognizes the Canandaigua Treaty because it wants to in their attempt at a land grab trough land claims and trust applications but they were arguing just as strongly against the tribes in the ICC hearings. There may well be six traditional governments that could be calling themselves the Confederacy, but they themselves have no powers to act as a government because the U.S. does not recognize many traditional governments as being the government in power which is why the Confederacy that the signed the Treaty of Canandaigua no longer exists.

Regardless, I posted the Treaty that you alleged made these federal reservations. Could you copy and paste the clause that applies to back up your lies?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 09:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Save your spin settler.


how is a native a settler?

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Do you seriously believe the Confederacy no longer exist?


where is your proof?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 09:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
the Pickering Treaty is still actively recognized by the United States and the nations of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.


is that why the tribes are in violation of it?

why where the tribes 'passport' not accepted over the pond?
only US passports would be accepted

are you unable to sleep again?
you posted at 4am
another late night for you...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 09:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Good. Now you can educate Bz to that reality.



you fail to understand it
write obama a letter
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 09:47 AM

Been appointed forum house mama now?

Man up Bz.


One thing is certain, The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.

Life is good.



Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 03:00 PM

is your passport accepted outside of the USA?
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/02/12 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Man up Bz.

One thing is certain, The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.
Talk of manning up, all I asked was that you copy and paste the clause in the treaty to verify that the treaty did what you claimed. Obviously it did not.

I have no ill will toward anyone but your insinuation that equality under the law represents genocide to tribal members makes it is obvious you do not understand English which explains why you could not understand the treaty.

I see Porter's attempts at ethnic cleansing on Snyder Beach is being opposed by members of his own tribe. Maybe you should grab your TomTom and beat it.

Man of the Year, more than you could dream of:
http://www.depauw.edu/athletics/news/details/12442/

\:\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/03/12 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.



seems halftown is more your concern as he said he would burn down the tribes buildings if he is removed from his position

why will he not show his people where the money is?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/03/12 08:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
all I asked was that you copy and paste the clause in the treaty to verify that the treaty did what you claimed. Obviously it did not.


;\)

teonan has much to learn
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/03/12 05:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
and hardly any of the traditional Iroquois governments or clan mothers, except maybe the Onondaga, are even recognized as a government by the U.S.


some body had better read this

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/08/24/bureau-of-indian-affairs-confirms-cayuga-traditional-council-48939

<--- ---<<<

Keel wrote, “I conclude that the source of the changes (in federal representatives and council members) was the action of each clan mother in carrying out her traditional clan responsibilities. I would be remiss if I failed to recognize the results of this exercise of ancient traditional authority by the Clan Mothers … By Haudenosaunee tradition, the Clan Mothers are the persons tasked with the responsibility of appointing representatives of their respective clans to serve on the Nation Council. Therefore, for purposes of the government-to-government relationship between the United States and the Cayuga Nation, I recognize the Nation Council as set out in Cayuga Nation Resolution 11-001.”

Read more:http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/08/24/bureau-of-indian-affairs-confirms-cayuga-traditional-council-48939 http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.co...9#ixzz22WiOy7ls

<--- ---<<<

You UCE(less)guys are a joke, your minds are so twisted you see cross eyed


Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/03/12 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


Regardless, I posted the Treaty that you alleged made these federal reservations. Could you copy and paste the clause that applies to back up your lies?


what does this mean ?
ARTICLE 2.
The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga and Cayuga Nations, in their respective treaties with the state of New-York, and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends residing thereon and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof: but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase

you sir, are so full of yourself some one should FLUSH

<--- ---<<<

signed BOB McGILL
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/03/12 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
and hardly any of the traditional Iroquois governments or clan mothers, except maybe the Onondaga, are even recognized as a government by the U.S.
some body had better read this

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/08/24/bureau-of-indian-affairs-confirms-cayuga-traditional-council-48939

<--- ---<<<

Keel wrote, “I conclude that the source of the changes (in federal representatives and council members) was the action of each clan mother in carrying out her traditional clan responsibilities. I would be remiss if I failed to recognize the results of this exercise of ancient traditional authority by the Clan Mothers … By Haudenosaunee tradition, the Clan Mothers are the persons tasked with the responsibility of appointing representatives of their respective clans to serve on the Nation Council. Therefore, for purposes of the government-to-government relationship between the United States and the Cayuga Nation, I recognize the Nation Council as set out in Cayuga Nation Resolution 11-001.”

Read more:http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/08/24/bureau-of-indian-affairs-confirms-cayuga-traditional-council-48939 http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.co...9#ixzz22WiOy7ls

<--- ---<<<

You UCE(less)guys are a joke, your minds are so twisted you see cross eyed
And you better read the date and the appeal Halftown filed the following month. Why do you think he moved the Cayuga offices to Geneva and Auburn and why do you think the traditional Cayuga drove a truck through the side of the Lakeside a few months ago?

Evidently you don't even live here as you don't know squat.

It would be nice if the Traditional governments were in charge, but alas, you are wrong again because it has not happened.
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/03/12 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


Regardless, I posted the Treaty that you alleged made these federal reservations. Could you copy and paste the clause that applies to back up your lies?


what does this mean ?
ARTICLE 2.
The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga and Cayuga Nations, in their respective treaties with the state of New-York and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends residing thereon and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof: but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase

you sir, are so full of yourself some one should FLUSH

<--- ---<<<

signed BOB McGILL


What it means is that the State owned the Title to the land and allowed the tribe a use right to 100 square miles of this State owned land. Below is the State Treaty with the Cayuga and the 1788 Treaty of Fort Schuyler with the Oneida reads likewise. Both were ruled valid in the land claim because the State had not joined the union yet.

Treaty of Albany
February 25, 1789

A contract executed between the sachems, chiefs and warriors of the tribe or Nation of Indians, called the Cayugas, at a TREATY held in the city of Albany with George Clinton, Pierre Van Courtland, Ezro L’Hommedieu, Abraham Ten Broeck, John Hatham, Samuel Jones, Peter Ganesvoort. Jun. and Egbert Benson, commissioners on behalf of the State of New York, by which the said sachems, chiefs and warriors of the Cayuga covenanted, on the 25th of February 1789, as follows:

"First: the Cayugas do cede and grant ALL their lands to the people of the State of New York , forever."

Secondly: the Cayugas shall, OF THE CEDED LANDS, (meaning the State held title to them)hold to themselves, and to their posterity, forever, for their own use and cultivation, but not to be sold, leased, or in any other manner alienated, or disposed of, to others, (because it was henseforth State owned land) all that tract of land, beginning at the Cayuga salt spring on the Seneka Rive, and running thence southerly to intersect the middle of a line to be drawn from the outlet of Cayuga to the outlet of Waskongh, and from the said place of intersection, southerly, the general course of the eastern bank of the Cayuga lake, thence westerly, to intersect a line running on the west side of the Cayuga lake, at the mean distance of three miles from the western bank thereof, and from the said point of intersection, along the said line, so running on the west side of Cayuga lake, to the Seneka river, thence down the said river to the Cayuga lake, thence through the said lake, to the outlet thereof, and thence further down the Seneka river to the source of beginning, so as to comprehend within the limits aforesaid, and exclusive of the water of Cayuga lake, the quantity of one hundred square miles. Also the place in the Seneka river, at or near the place called Skayes, where the Cayuga have heretofore taken eel; and a competent piece of land on the southern side of the river, at the said place, sufficient for the Cayugas to land and encamp on, and to cure their eel. Excepted, nevertheless, out of the said land so reserved, one mile square at the Cayuga Ferry.

Thirdly: the Cayugas and their posterity, forever, shall enjoy the free rights of hunting in every part of the said CEDED lands, and of fishing in all the waters within the same.

Fourthly: in consideration of the said cession and grant, the people of the State of New York do, at this present TREATY, pay to the Cayugas, five hundred dollars, in silver, and the people of the State of New York shall pay to the Cayugas, on the first day of June next, at Fort Schuyler (formerly known as Fort Stanwix,) the further sum of one thousand six hundred and twenty five dollars, and, also the people of the State of New York shall annually pay to the Cayugas and their posterity, forever, on this first day of June and every year thereafter, at Fort Schuyler aforesaid, five hundred dollars in silver. But if the Cayugas or their posterity, shall at any time hereafter, elect that the whole, or any part of the said annual payment of five hundred dollars, shall be paid in clothing, or provisions, and give six weeks previous notice thereof to the governor of the State for the time being, then so much of the annual payment shall, for that time, be in clothing or provisions, as the Cayugas or their posterity shall elect, and at the price which same shall cost the people of the State of New York, at Fort Schuyler aforesaid. And, as a farther consideration to the Cayugas, the people of the State of New York shall grant to their adopted child, Peter Ryckman, whom they have expressed a desire to remain near them, to assist them, and as a benevolence from them, the Cayugas, to him, and in return for services rendered by him to their nation, the said tract of one mile square at the Cayuga ferry excepted, out of the said lands reserved to the Cayugas for their own use and cultivation, that of a tract beginning on the west bank of the Seneka lake, thence running due west (passing one chain north of a house lately erected, and now in occupation of the said Peter Ryckman), to the line partition between the State of New York and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, of the lands ceded to each other, thence due south along said line of partition, thence due east to the Seneka lake, thence northerly along the bank of said lake, to the Place of the beginning, so as to contain sixteen thousand acres. The people of the State of New York shall grant three hundred and twenty acres to a white person married to a daughter of a Cayuga named Thaniowes, including the present settlement of the said person on the south side of Caghsion creek; and that the people of the State of New York shall grant the residue of the said tract of sixteen thousand acres to Peter Ryckman.

Fifthly: The people of the State of New York may, at all times hereafter, in such manner, and by such means, as they shall deem proper, prevent any person, except the Cayugas and their adopted brethren the Paanese, from residing or setting on the lands to be held by the Cayugas and their posterity for their use and cultivation, and if any person shall, without the consent of the people of the State of New York, come to reside or settle on the said lands, so CEDED, as aforesaid, the Cayugas and their posterity shall forthwith give notice of such intrusions to the governor of the said state for the time being, and further, the Cayugas and their posterity, forever, shall, at the request of the governor of the said State, be abiding to the people of the State of New York in removing all such intruders, and apprehending not only such intruders, but feloms and other offenders, who may happen to be on the said ceded lands, to that end, such intruders, felons and other offenders, may be brought to justice.

Notwithstanding the said reservation herein above specified to the Cayugas, it is declared to be the intent of the parties, that the Cayuga called Fish Carrier, shall have a mile squre of the reserved lands, for the separate use of himself, and for the separate use of his family, forever. Before sealing and delivery hereof, it was for trhe greater certainty, declared to be the intent of the parties, that this grant and cession is to be only the lands eastward of the partition line above mentioned, between the State of New York and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts; and that, with respect to such part of their country as it is to the westward of said partition line, the right and property of the Cayugas to be the same as if this grant and cession had not been made. The Cayuga salt spring and the land to the extent of one mile around the same, to remain for the commin use and benefit of the people of the State of New York, and the Cayugas and their posterity forever. And the land to be reserved at the fishing place near Skayes, shall be the extent of one mile on each side of the river, the above reservation of land on the southern side of the river, only, notwithstanding.


Glad you asked what it meant rather than assuming you actually knew.
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 06:21 AM

there is a problem with your interpretation, where it says" hold to themselves" means they keep that part and the state gets gets the rest.

DON'T TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS----- keep posting this stuff because it will only destroy you in the end because you think people are stupid, but the majority are a whole lot smarter than you think !

<--- ---<<<

BOB McGILL
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
there is a problem with your interpretation, where it says" hold to themselves" means they keep that part and the state gets gets the rest.

DON'T TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS----- keep posting this stuff because it will only destroy you in the end because you think people are stupid, but the majority are a whole lot smarter than you think !

<--- ---<<< BOB McGILL
Bhwahahaha As in Carcieri where NOW means NOW, in Cayuga ALL means ALL which is made clear in the first clause. And where it says in the second clause "hold to themselves" is preceded by OF THE CEDED LANDS, (meaning the State held title to them). Likewise in the Treaty of Fort Schyler which is why SCOTUS ruled the lands taxable in Sherrill.

You better take an English class. Your argument is less solid than Bill Clinton's was when he said it depends on what your interpretation of the word is is.

We could throw old land claim arguments back and forth for another twenty years but you already LOST that claim. Do you know what the word LOST means?

Oh, you did change your question asking me to tell you what it meant to telling me not to tell you.

Granted, a trust application is based on different arguments than the land claim was, but the trust lawsuit by CERA has Constitutional arguments that were not dismissed and we can agree or not.

Have a nice day. I'm off to the Renaissance Festival. \:\)
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 09:26 AM

may I suggest that RICCI take it to the family lawyer,if they are speaking that is.

and be careful at the RF they might confuse you with a turkey leg
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head

BOB McGILL


thanks for the laughs \:D \:D \:D
it is obvious you have not done your homework
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 02:39 PM

the treaty is dated 1789 AIN't IT ?

JUST IN CASE 88 COMES BEFORE 89-----
[BLABERZONE/quote]because the State had not joined the union yet. Treaty of Albany February 25, 1789
-

Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788. WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected

BLABERZONE, I am not doing any homework at all,I am just picking out where your posts don't match what your BLABERMOUTH is saying.

<--- ---<<<


so answer this, "New York State was a state of what ?"



New York was the 11th state in the USA; it became a state on July 26, 1788. ....
date of statehood, state bird (draw and write), state flower (draw and write), ...
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/newyork

tell the world it is wrong,has been wrong and that YOU ARE RIGHT

Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
the treaty is dated 1789 AIN't IT ?

so answer this, "New York State was a state of what ?"

New York was the 11th state in the USA; it became a state on July 26, 1788. ....
date of statehood, state bird (draw and write), state flower (draw and write), ...
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/newyork

tell the world it is wrong,has been wrong and that YOU ARE RIGHT

There ya go again, asking me to explain something to ya

An old rehash of the land claim that you know nothing about. Based on original documents the Colony was admitted as a State in March of 1789. It was not up to the Colony to admit itself dingdong. THAT would be as stupid as a county making a settlement with a tribe. You better call Judge McCurn and tell him his ruling was invalid. Be sure to tell him your IQ too. HAHahahahahah

At least you admit what your world consists of.
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
there is a problem with your interpretation, where it says" hold to themselves" means they keep that part and the state gets gets the rest.

DON'T TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS----- keep posting this stuff because it will only destroy you in the end because you think people are stupid, but the majority are a whole lot smarter than you think !

<--- ---<<<

Cayuga Nation of New York v Cuomo U.S.Supreme Court
Plaintiffs allege that from time immemorial until the late eighteenth century the Cayuga Nation owned and occupied approximately three million acres of land in what is now New York State, a swath of land approximately fifty miles wide that runs from Lake Ontario to the Pennsylvania border.   This action involves 64,015 acres of that land, encompassing the Cayuga's “Original Reservation,” as set forth in a treaty with the State of New York, concluded on February 25, 1789 (“1789 Treaty”).   In the 1789 Treaty, the Cayugas ceded all of their lands to New York, except the lands designated as the “Original Reservation,” which consists of lands on the eastern and western shores of the northern end of Cayuga Lake.

BOB McGILL
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 07:46 PM

Congress passed the first Indian Trade and Intercourse Act, known as the “Nonintercourse Act,” in 1790, pursuant to Congress's power under Article I, Section 8, clause 3 of the Constitution, which gives Congress the power “to regulate Commerce ․ with the Indian Tribes.”   Act of July 22, 1790, ch. 33, § 4, 1 Stat. 137, 138.   As the Supreme Court described it, “the Act bars sales of tribal land without the acquiescence of the Federal Government.”  Sherrill, 125 S.Ct. at 1484.   Successive versions of the Act have been continuously in force from that time to the present day.   See Rev. Stat. § 2116, 25 U.S.C. § 177.

On November 11, 1794, the Six Iroquois Nations 1 entered the Treaty of Canandaigua with the United States.   7 Stat. 44.   This treaty acknowledged the Original Reservation the Cayugas retained in the 1789 treaty with New York, and promised the Cayugas that the land would remain theirs until they “chose to sell the same to the people of the United States who have the right to purchase.”  Id. art.   II, 7 Stat. at 45.   On June 16, 1795, William Bradford, then Attorney General of the United States, issued an opinion concluding that, under the 1793 version of the Nonintercourse Act, no Indian land sale was valid, nor could the land claims of the Six Iroquois Nations be extinguished, except pursuant to a treaty entered into by the Federal Government.  See Cayuga Indian Nation v. Cuomo, 565 F.Supp. 1297, 1305 (N.D.N.Y.1983) (“Cayuga I ”).
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 08:59 PM

Your copy and paste of old tribal land claim arguments do not change the fact that you LOST. As a ward, maybe you should file a complaint with your guardian.
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes *DELETED* - 08/04/12 09:28 PM

Post deleted by FL1 Mod 2
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/04/12 11:19 PM

I knew ya could not walk and chew gum at the same time. You cannot even open more than one thread at the same time and paste your pre-typed reply in the correct thread. Then you edit that reply and still do not catch it. You are definitely in way over your head.
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/05/12 05:23 AM

do you have windows 7 ?

I don't know anyone with a new laptop and windows 7 that does not have problems

besides you are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off I just added are you in heat

because I can see the smoke from here <--- ---<<<<

.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/05/12 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
Congress passed the first Indian Trade and Intercourse Act...


Congress passed the Indian claims commission

how did the cayuga 'tribe' do with the ICC?

Congress also allowed all tribal members US citizenship in 1924

all 'treaties' were void after that point
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/05/12 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
I don't know anyone under 13 years of age that does not have problems
Posted by: Butt

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/06/12 05:45 PM

[quote=Butt Head]do you have windows 7 ?

I don't know anyone with a new laptop and windows 7 that does not have problems {quote]


editted by rich tallcot---originally posted by Butt Head--I don't know anyone under 13 years of age that does not have problems

This is a classic example of UCE tactics. Change a few words here and there, leave out this part and that part. What UCE doesn't realize is that the people who really count know UCE is lying and laugh at them in private.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/10/12 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Butt Head
[quote=Butt Head]do you have windows 7 ?

I don't know anyone with a new laptop and windows 7 that does not have problems {quote]


editted by rich tallcot---originally posted by Butt Head--I don't know anyone under 13 years of age that does not have problems

This is a classic example of UCE tactics. Change a few words here and there, leave out this part and that part. What UCE doesn't realize is that the people who really count know UCE is lying and laugh at them in private.



is the 'quote' function too difficult to use?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/10/12 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan


Good. Now you can educate Bz to that reality.


Originally Posted By: Teonan

Ralph Nader fights for healthcare, consumer safety, our environment, ethics, education, and economic & social equality.


equality....hum

seems you believe otherwise
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/14/12 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
And you STILL cannot site ANY relevant clause in the treaty that you never read.



teonan has yet to post one
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/15/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Get Ready for a Catastrophic War: Israel Likely to Strike Iran Before November Elections
The Israeli government is exploiting the American political timetable to pressure President Obama to support an attack on Iran’s nuclear sites.


just send in halftown and your group

oh thats right he had to call the local authorities to protect him from his own people...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/15/12 03:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Underestimating the desires to "rearrange our courts " laissez faire nincompoops dream for in your 'utopia' of greed and selfishness?

Only "me"...yepper.

Enjoy your egocentric self-interest


'our courts'
thanks for supporting the USA

greed and selfishness = tribal interests
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 08/27/12 10:53 AM

did you vote halftown out?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/04/12 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Ralph Nader fights for healthcare, consumer safety, our environment, ethics, education, and economic & social equality.


just think if the US taxpayers did not pay for all the tribes needs not in any treaty there would be plenty of money left in medicare and social security for many years

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/11/12 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: twocats
Quote:
Medicare and Social Security



Talk about pandering to the baby boomers. You'll get yours. Screw the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that. If its good enough for future generations, it should be good enough for the baby boomers.

" its supporters aim to mask their true aim by grandfathering in those over 55, keeping them from having to face a transformed Medicare program."



"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"


teonan - do the 'people of the longhouse' get social security and medicare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/12/12 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: twocats
Quote:
Medicare and Social Security



Talk about pandering to the baby boomers. You'll get yours. Screw the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that. If its good enough for future generations, it should be good enough for the baby boomers.

" its supporters aim to mask their true aim by grandfathering in those over 55, keeping them from having to face a transformed Medicare program."



"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"




teonan - do the 'people of the longhouse' get social security and medicare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 09/21/12 09:02 AM

Quote:
Seneca Nation Sues Feds over IHS Self-Determination Funding
http://turtletalk.wordpress.com/2012/09/...nding/#comments


600 tribes x $7,000,000 = $4,200,000,000 per year

$4,200,000,000 x 40 years = $168,000,000,000

teonan wonder where the money is for your obamacare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/01/12 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: twocats
Quote:
Medicare and Social Security



Talk about pandering to the baby boomers. You'll get yours. Screw the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that. If its good enough for future generations, it should be good enough for the baby boomers.

" its supporters aim to mask their true aim by grandfathering in those over 55, keeping them from having to face a transformed Medicare program."



"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"




teonan - do the 'people of the longhouse' get social security and medicare?



when the money runs out for medicare guess you will still have to pay your taxes for the tribal members to get medicare while you are denied... \:\(
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/02/12 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Six Nations Council House. Clan mothers and chiefs might have a thing or two to teach you about the existance of their government.


Nice avatar

thanks for supporting the USA
Posted by: LeeAnnRagains

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/03/12 09:17 PM

Please read the BUSINESS TIMES OF EDMOND August 2012 pg 11

http://www.epageflip.net/i/77261/0

Obama & Tribal socialism will destroy the United States of America.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/10/12 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan


Good. Now you can educate Bz to that reality.


Originally Posted By: Teonan

Ralph Nader fights for healthcare, consumer safety, our environment, ethics, education, and economic & social equality.


equality....hum

seems you believe otherwise
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/10/12 08:49 AM


Contexual disfunction much bz?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/11/12 01:36 PM

will you be voting for obama?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/11/12 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: twocats
Quote:
Medicare and Social Security



Talk about pandering to the baby boomers. You'll get yours. Screw the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that. If its good enough for future generations, it should be good enough for the baby boomers.

" its supporters aim to mask their true aim by grandfathering in those over 55, keeping them from having to face a transformed Medicare program."



"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"




teonan - do the 'people of the longhouse' get social security and medicare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/14/12 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Contexual disfunction much bz?



thanks for supporting the United States of America
make sure you vote in november

ain't freedom of speech grand...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/12 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Contexual disfunction much bz?



teonan show us a treaty this is part of?

Quote:
Indian voters in Montana seek satellite offices on reservations
Friday, October 12, 2012

Fifteen Indian voters filed a lawsuit in Montana seeking satellite election offices on reservations.

The plaintiffs live on the Crow Reservation, the Northern Cheyenne Reservation and the Fort Belknap Reservation. They say the state and their respective counties are providing satellite offices for non-Indian communities while forcing Indian voters to travel far distances to participate in the electoral process.


treaty reading dysfunction much?
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/12 08:16 AM

Lexographical dysfunction, BZ (and Teonan)?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/12 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Lexographical dysfunction, BZ (and Teonan)?


Aw lighten up Cuzi. Life is too short for paradigmatic analysis.
Posted by: Cuzi Sedso

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/15/12 09:51 AM

Sorry if that pinched your nipple, but I don't see incorrect spelling or not using a dictionary as having anything to do with paradigmatic analysis.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/16/12 09:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Indianz.Com. In Print.
http://www.indianz.com/News/2012/007365.asp

Anthropologist says Kennewick Man was not Native American
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2012
Filed Under: Education | Environment | National
More on: kennewick man, nagpra

An anthropologist from the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History told tribal leaders that Kennewick Man, whose remains date back 9,500 years, was not Native American, The Seattle Times reports.

Doug Owsley said his research shows that Kennewick Man was similar to Asian Coastal people. "There is not any clear genetic relationship to Native American peoples," he told tribal leaders at a meeting yesterday, the Times reported.

Owsley also said Kennewick Man's diet was not similar to that of tribes currently in Northwest. "This is a man from the coast, not a man from here," he told tribes.

Kennewick Man was discovered on federal land in Washington that used to be a part of the Umatilla Reservation. Tribes sought to rebury him under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act but the courts ruled that the remains were too old to be covered by the law.

Tribal leaders are still hopeful that they will be able to rebury Kennewick Man, known as Techaminsh Oytpamanatityt, or Ancient One, in the Yakama language.


must be the 'natives' are not native...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/17/12 09:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"


maybe the tribes should not have sided with the British
place all blame on your shoulders

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/18/12 09:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Equal pay for equal work -- White House and every house.


equal?

does that word equal only apply when it benefits you?

nice avatar
thanks for supporting the United States of America
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/19/12 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
A Democratic avatar hardly means one is owned by mainstream Democrats


thought you would have a 'tribal' avatar as you claim to stand by their side
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/19/12 05:26 PM

Cool with mine. Thanks!


Here's a excellent for your lonely avatar hole...

Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/20/12 10:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Cool with mine. Thanks!


why - do you want free healthcare?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/20/12 10:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Here's a excellent for your lonely avatar hole...



fits better for the 'US citizens' that 'claim' to be 'sovereign...'

Quote:

Indian voters in Montana seek satellite offices on reservations
Friday, October 12, 2012

Fifteen Indian voters filed a lawsuit in Montana seeking satellite election offices on reservations.

The plaintiffs live on the Crow Reservation, the Northern Cheyenne Reservation and the Fort Belknap Reservation. They say the state and their respective counties are providing satellite offices for non-Indian communities while forcing Indian voters to travel far distances to participate in the electoral process.


Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/12 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan



'we sided with the british and lost'....
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 10/31/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Here's


there is one serious flaw in the tribes 'claim' to this being their land

they fail to prove that they would still have the land
Posted by: Rich_Tallcot

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 11/02/12 01:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.
RE: laughingWillow

No joke here. You make a statement and then avoid reply questions with more generalization. Nobody asked you to complete any list, just name ONE or more specifically name one THAT APPLIES TO NEW YORK STATE. It is the tribes that are violating the treaties. Granted that the present day descendents may not like what their ancestors agreed to and SCOTUS seldom rules in favor of tribal skewed arguments and when you cannot justify the arguments you attack through generalizations rather than explain yourself.

But repeating lies does not make the lies true. OK, if that is what you were taught then I can rationalize your misunderstandings to be that, but nonetheless misconstrued and wrong.

SCOTUS has ruled at least five times that tribes have to collect sales taxes from non-Indians and tribal members if not members of the tribe making the sales. It is only through riots and political corruption that this is avoided.

As BZ asked and you ran away from, what aspect of what treaty that you have was not honored?

Re: Sausage

At least Sausage asked a specific question. Reservation elimination? No, that would be a case by case basis. But they should also comply with the laws everyone else does, which includes being arrested for failure to comply.

Refusal to acknowledge that reservations and those that live on them are a part of the state and citizens of that state in which they reside does not change that fact as being true. To that end SCOTUS has also ruled. But therein lies the disagreement

The coming of the Europeans meant there was no need to wait millennia for some ingenious Indian to figure out how to build a wheeled cart or discover laws of logic. That along with thousands of other accomplishments it is gratitude and not hostility that Christopher Columbus deserves from the
descendents of the American aborigines and academia with goals not un-similar to Islamic extremists disdaining Western civilization and those who made it possible.

An organism's life is it's standard value: that which furthers it's life is the good, that which threatens it's life is the evil. - Ayn Rand Reason is man's means of survival. It follows that the most rational civilization is the one that embodies the best end product of man's best thinking and action since the beginning of time, which represents the highest social value possible to mankind and an enormous good. Western Civilization is that most rational civilization, that highest social value.

Simply put it is better to be well off, healthy and safe than poor, sick and afraid. People who fail to civilize themselves are doomed to live in filth, hunger and fear and die before their time.

The Pit River Indians believed that the essence of religion was the spirit of wonder, the recognition of power as a mysterious concentrated form of non-material energy, of something lose in the world and contained in a more or less condensed degree by every object. The Mayas believed the stones of their temples to be inhabited by spirits, thus they could never bring themselves to tear down a crumbling building for fear of insulting the spirits and built new building around the old.

It is not a cultural conditioning that makes us believe that telephoning from an air conditioned apartment for pizza delivers is preferable to knawing on vermin ridden meat in a sweltering teepee.

Only Western Civilization is sophisticated enough to have originated the idea that it is inferior. Primitive societies are ethnocentric viewing social reality as "us vs. everyone else". Such a mentality does not permit the emergence of tribal self hatred, since that would spell instant destruction at the hands of other tribes. In this limited sense, the pre-Columbian Indians were arguably superior to modern academics who damn America and its achievements, out of guilt or a desire to appease.

The North American pre-Columbian Indians were nomadic village dwelling cultures that had not developed an Aristotle of their own, nor discovered the laws of logic, nor formed a concept of natural law. Instead they believed the universe to be ruled by spirits that required unflinching obedience to deliberate mind numbing rituals and taboos. They had developed no science or mathematics and most no written language. Politically, they never developed the idea of individual rights. Warfare between tribes was widespread and brutally destructive. They were still mired in the stone age. They were miserably poor, not only by the standards of today but by 15th century Europe. All Indians were subject to physical and economic catastrophes such as floods, pestilence, and epidemic disease that modern societies tamed or forgot.

Tribes lacked the intellectual tools to be self critical and behaved irrationally using their power and wealth to conquer weaker tribes, extort tribute, capture slaves and slaughter sacrificial victims. To step outside of reality five hundred years later and point fingers is laughable because it ignores the world as it existed at the time.


Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received - hatred. Ayn Rand

If it were not for Columbus, Western Civilization itself would not have flourished.

Cultural relativism is invalid because it is self contradictory. Relativism is a self refuting doctrine. For it claims an objective validity for itself when it is advocating the impossibility of objective validity; it steps outside a culture to claim that one cannot step outside a culture; it condemns as immoral the whole institution of condemnation and praise. - Michael Berliner

Logic to Sausage apparently is a subjective preference without universal application. Reason knows no race and the only valid reason for teaching history from the perspective of Western Civilization lies in the objective merits and achievements of that civilization, compared with all others.

Sir Sausage, you appear to remain in the us vs. them mentality.

You may well be a citizen of your own tribe or an academic equivalent to the islamic extremists, as I am a member of my lodge, but we are both also citizens of the state and country we live in. As such, we should obey the same laws.

Ramble on and have a nice day. \:\)
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 11/03/12 11:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
It is the tribes that are violating the treaties.


correct

rescind their treaties as they are US citizens since 1924
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/13/12 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Here's


did you vote for obama?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/13/12 08:08 PM



Not your concern Bz.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/12 08:28 AM

do you regret voting for obama already?
Posted by: Teonan

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/12 08:45 AM


Shouldn't you be out in the woods by now?

Oh yeah - you already are.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/12 09:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
Deflection.... the oldest game in the book


if you did not vote for obama then you must have voted for romney

hummmm...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.


Originally Posted By: Teonan

"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"


teonan - do the 'people of the longhouse' get social security and medicare?


Originally Posted By: Teonan





the 'tribes' must get social security and medicare out of greed as there is not one treaty stating they are allowed those benefits...
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/17/12 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Teonan

Shouldn't you be out in the woods by now?


are you not one with nature?
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 11/26/12 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.



by you voting for obama it is you that is 'bent on assimilating or destroying them'.
Posted by: bluezone

Re: Tribes owe $895 Million to NY - 12/03/12 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
It is the tribes that are violating the treaties.


correct
Posted by: bluezone

Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes - 12/20/12 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Teonan
The People of the Longhouse will outlive all attempts by your little pack of toothless malcontents bent on assimilating or destroying them.


Originally Posted By: Teonan

"We cannot simply think of our survival; each new generation is responsible to ensure the survival of the seventh generation. The prophecy given to us, tells us that what we do today will affect the seventh generation and because of this we must bear in mind our responsibility to them today and always."

- Haudenosaunee "People of the Longhouse"


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Watertown Daily Times |
St. Regis casino operators indicted on illegal-gambling charges
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20121219/NEWS07/712189766
By ROGER DUPUIS
TIMES STAFF WRITER
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 2012

Five men have been indicted on federal charges of operating an illegal gambling business on the St. Regis Mohawk Reservation, and the Mohawk traditionalists associated with the Three Feathers Casino also could face additional state charges in connection with $200,000 in alleged electricity theft through an unauthorized power connection at the site.

The Dec. 12 indictment, product of a yearlong, multiagency probe, culminated in execution of separate federal and state search warrants at the shuttered casino Tuesday morning by federal, state and local law enforcement agents.

Federal officials said James Gray, William Roger Jock, Thomas Angus Square and Anthony Laughing Sr., all of Hogansburg, and Joseph Hight of Atlanta face federal charges of conducting an illegal gambling business and unlawfully possessing gambling devices in Indian country.

The maximum potential penalty for the first count is five years’ prison time and a $250,000 fine. The second count carries up to two years’ imprisonment and a $250,000 fine.

No one associated with the operation was present Tuesday morning when agents converged on the casino, which has been closed for about three months, federal officials said. A recording indicated the casino’s telephone number was disconnected when a reporter called later in the day.

Mr. Square, 57, was arrested Tuesday morning on the reservation. Mr. Jock, 51, and Mr. Laughing, 65, surrendered late Tuesday afternoon at U.S. District Court in Plattsburgh. Mr. Gray, 56, and Mr. Hight, 49, had not been arrested as of Tuesday night.

Mr. Laughing, who ran Tony's Vegas International casino in the 1980s, was convicted in